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40kdhs
21-01-2009, 18:20
I would like to know how many people like to see ASF rule in the 8th edition after seeing how it's used for 2 years?

I think that it's a good idea for HE because every army should have something special. Please vote. Thank you.

loveless
21-01-2009, 18:34
Regardless of whether or not anyone wants to see it back, there are far too many items/abilities strewn across the Army Books for it to stop being the Fantasy version of a "Universal Special Rule".

It'll be back. If anything, it might get a slight tweak on its wording to incorporate some of the FAQ information in it (like how to handle 2x ASF w/ GW (whoo, abbreviations)).

The Red Scourge
21-01-2009, 18:34
I think the rule is decent, but for more specialized units and characters only. In the end it ruins more for the high elf players than it helps. But having it on certain items/characters would only be cool – pikemen, swordmasters, DE assassins etc.

chivalrous
21-01-2009, 20:13
*shrugs* It's a useful rule now and I don't really see it as too powerful on the High Elves.
for a special rule however it is possibly overused where bonuses to an initiative stat, rather underused if non-existant, may have been a better way forward.
If High Elves had had the rule "Always strike in initiative order" rather than ASF it would amount to pretty much the same thing. If the Corpse Cart gave +D6I rather than ASF, I don't think people would cry out half as much as they do about that. that way, all the magic items granting ASF in army books prior to HE would perceive a greater use for these items (i.e. they'd still get ASF without having to worry about them darn elves still going first). On the flip side HE are only one army an even with ASF, the beneficiaries of the Corpse cart are still going to go after another model/unit with ASF.

isidril93
21-01-2009, 20:20
i like it. i gives the high elves a distinct rule although if it was i changed i would imagine it would be like this

can never be affected by always strike last
have armour piercing (representing their really well crafted weapons and their skill to get im between the opponents armour)

Lazarus15
21-01-2009, 20:27
I agree about the high elves with what everyone here as said.

O&G'sRule
21-01-2009, 20:40
Of course it will. Its existed for as long as I've played the game. 8th is way off anyway

Hrogoff the Destructor
21-01-2009, 20:41
It'll return.

With the HE the only armies their ASF greatly impacts greatly is the other elves. However, Dark Elves also got infinite hatred against High Elves. Wood Elves haven't been updated, but sre still quite competitive (and will get their army wise special rule sometime in the future).

Plus, it's generally an option for characters too.

Griefbringer
21-01-2009, 20:46
Ahem, the concept of Always Strikes First has been around at least since the days of the 4th edition, with various units, characters, magic items and spells granting it with slightly different wordings.

I think the 7th edition approach of treating it as a universal special rule is good, as it removes the problem of sorting out case by case what happens when two units with slighty reworded "strikes first" rule encounter.

There might at times be a slight overabundance of ASF in the army books, if it gets worse soon half of the units have ASF and then the designers need to invent ASMF (Always Strikes Most Firstest) rule to definy the really exceptional cases.

darkace77450
21-01-2009, 21:09
I hope it isn't back as an army-wide rule for the HEs; but then again I like my WFB high on strategy and tactics and low on special rules and uber-combos.

loveless
21-01-2009, 21:20
I hope it isn't back as an army-wide rule for the HEs; but then again I like my WFB high on strategy and tactics and low on special rules and uber-combos.

Maybe you should switch out a bit, then - all of the new armies are getting army-wide special rules ;):p (Undead, Will of Chaos, Daemonic, Cold-Blooded, Eternal Hatred, etc. etc.)

darkace77450
21-01-2009, 21:28
Maybe you should switch out a bit, then - all of the new armies are getting army-wide special rules ;):p (Undead, Will of Chaos, Daemonic, Cold-Blooded, Eternal Hatred, etc. etc.)

I know, its a huge part of why I haven't played a game of WFB in a long time :(

Alas 6th edition, I miss you so :cries:

Cherrystone
21-01-2009, 21:41
I hope the rule cahnhes in that 2 units with ASF cancel each other out and so the combat order is decided as without it (charge, great weapons, I order etc).

Thats how we play it anyway but good if it was made official that way.

Ethlorien
21-01-2009, 21:42
It'll be back - I don't see why not. Hasn't ruined any of my games yet (for me or my opponent).

40kdhs
21-01-2009, 21:48
HE ASF is not as bad as some blame?

I would like to see it back to HE in the next edition.

Conotor
21-01-2009, 21:52
I hope it isn't back as an army-wide rule for the HEs; but then again I like my WFB high on strategy and tactics and low on special rules and uber-combos.

Same. Why can't elves just get lots of attacks?

theunwantedbeing
21-01-2009, 22:01
I dont really care.

Although I'de rather them lost the always off the rule.(which means a slight points drop so you get more elves in the list all you HE players who just read this and are now screaming at the screen at how unfair I am being).

8th edition is miles away.

darkace77450
21-01-2009, 22:01
HE ASF is not as bad as some blame?

I would like to see it back to HE in the next edition.

For HEs now, it doesn't matter if they charge or not since they always strike first. And since it doesn't matter if they charge or not, the movement phase isn't nearly as important to them as it used to be. And the movement phase should be the most important; tactical maneuvering is what the game should be all about in this humble general's opinion.

zak
21-01-2009, 22:04
I've found the DE hatred rule to be far more effective for the majority of units than ASF. I think the rule suits the HE's small elite status and makes them deadly (ish), but very fragile. I for one hope it stays.

Commissar Bone
21-01-2009, 22:14
aif it gets worse soon half of the units have asf and then the designers need to invent asmf (always strikes most firstest) rule

lolz!

:d

Lazarus15
21-01-2009, 22:41
I hope the rule cahnhes in that 2 units with ASF cancel each other out and so the combat order is decided as without it (charge, great weapons, I order etc).

Thats how we play it anyway but good if it was made official that way.

They answered this in the FAQ Part II of the BRB. You strike in Strict I order if both units have ASF. If they are the same, dice off.

rodmillard
21-01-2009, 23:16
I don't think its too powerful as such, although I agree it shouldn't be th HE army special rule (and I'm a HE player) - at the very least, ASF and the White Lions axes should cancel out to leave WL striking in I order.

At the end of the day, there are so many other ways they could have made HE unique, speed of Asuryan just seems like a cop out.

larabic
22-01-2009, 00:33
ASF has been around for a long time, usually just limited to a magic item or something, i hope it returns to that in 8th when i am old and gray.

ChaosVC
22-01-2009, 00:49
Well I think it should come back but only give the elves asf for frontal attacks and not the rear and the flanks. This way it makes more sense since you can't prepare for a rear or flank assault no matter how "long" you are trained.
Oh and toned down DE if they do that.

I am also a highelf player who also happens to be a DE player.:D

omgadinosaur
22-01-2009, 02:43
For HEs now, it doesn't matter if they charge or not since they always strike first. And since it doesn't matter if they charge or not, the movement phase isn't nearly as important to them as it used to be. And the movement phase should be the most important; tactical maneuvering is what the game should be all about in this humble general's opinion.

This is true, to an extent. It's still important for cavalry and chariots to get the charge for impact hits/lances. Spears will try to maneuver to get the enemy to charge them, which is something opponents don't want to do so you have to coax them into it. The tactical maneuvering still is important for march blocking, charge redirecting, getting shadow warriors in place, getting mages safe, etc.

I think ASF will stick around. The only units it really helps in the HE army are the combat heroes, spearelves, swordmasters, and white lions. Sure there are a few strange occurrence where a lone eagle's claw crewman kills off a dreadlord off of his dragon. (My opponent couldn't stop laughing when it happened) Or where a unit of archers amazingly kill 2 Cold One Riders from a stand and shoot reaction, proceed to kill another 2, break the unit. Fail their ld 8 test. Chase those lizard cavalries and actually catch them. (That time my opponent stared in disbelief. I believe it was because my archers where painted and his cold one riders where not)

my 2 cents.

Condottiere
22-01-2009, 05:04
Tuppence.

It will remain, but the troops entitled to it will become limited to encourage attacking; however, that will probably involve modifications in other lists to balance this out, or the High Elves discover that they had hidden talents which they had been uninformed of.

larabic
22-01-2009, 05:16
Actually i wish they would just amend the ruling of what happens when two ASF units hit. I would like the ruling to be that both units lose ASF and go on situation... so a charging unit would go over a highier I unit... or Gr weps would go after hand weps instead of I or dicing off...

wamphyri101
22-01-2009, 09:03
moan moan moan. Its all i hear about high elves and asf. But why?

Movement: We still need to play tactics as if we get charged by chariots were dead. If our knights get charged were down to str3 and were dead. Our units are usually small so if we get flank charged or mass block charged were dead.

Shooting: We die. plain and simple. We have a 5+ armour save on our army (-knights, pheonix guard ward and white lions) Yes the swordmasters are scarey but even a small unit of goblin bowmen can kill half the unit in 1 shot. were toughness for crying out loud.


Combat: sum up combat? small units, 5+save and toughness 3. Most armys mince us unless we play tactics. yeah swordmaster get 2 ws6 str5 hits...but chaos warriors can have 2str 4 hits with a 2+ save in combat! so against high elves that kills us.

If high elves didnt have asf anymore they would need to do something about its armour or maybe give them something connected with they skill. like a dodge save or something like that.

Or how about we give them a 5+ ward and fear on the whole army?
or a 4+ armour save on most there units with abilites to make the units regenerate, - to hit or immune to psycol

Or hell even the change to raise more troops since there simple enough to kill?

i dont mind other armys having all these new rules as brings a new element to the game . They must think about what it will do to gamers and for ever 10 that bitch about it online 500 probably love it.

So if you cant handle new rules, go play pokemon or yu-gi-oh or something else

EndlessBug
22-01-2009, 09:50
We have a 5+ armour save on our army (-knights, pheonix guard ward and white lions)

So about half the main battle line then, spearmen and swordmasters have the 5+ save you speak of.

In either case I agree with you, the ASF is fine really, they still struggle against heavily armoured foes, it's just imba against other elves or humans really.

I think you're mixing moaning with constructive criticism, most people here aren't saying it's BROKEN anymore, most are just saying that in some cases there are more logical fixes with the rule, for example when great weapons are involved. If a unit with a great weapon and ASF is in combat with a unit with hand weapons and ASF then for some reason the great weapon doesn't strike after the hand weapon and just initiative is looked at. I think this is ridiculous, the order of fighting should be:

ASF none strikes last weaponry with highest I
ASF none strikes last weaponry
ASF strikes last weaponry with highest I
ASF strikes last weaponry
Chargers
none strikes last weaponry with highest I
none strikes last weaponry
strikes last weaponry with highest I
strikes last weaponry

Seems a much more logical method

Mireadur
22-01-2009, 11:38
i like it. i gives the high elves a distinct rule although if it was i changed i would imagine it would be like this

can never be affected by always strike last
have armour piercing (representing their really well crafted weapons and their skill to get im between the opponents armour)

Hahahaha that was a good one, now theres people asking for a buff in HE ASF :rolleyes:

I just hope it is removed other than in fighty chars and swordmasters, and anyhow should just work by the front during a charge.

P.S: my main army is HE.

darkace77450
22-01-2009, 13:11
moan moan moan. Its all i hear about high elves and asf. But why?

Movement: We still need to play tactics as if we get charged by chariots were dead. If our knights get charged were down to str3 and were dead. Our units are usually small so if we get flank charged or mass block charged were dead.

Shooting: We die. plain and simple. We have a 5+ armour save on our army (-knights, pheonix guard ward and white lions) Yes the swordmasters are scarey but even a small unit of goblin bowmen can kill half the unit in 1 shot. were toughness for crying out loud.


Combat: sum up combat? small units, 5+save and toughness 3. Most armys mince us unless we play tactics. yeah swordmaster get 2 ws6 str5 hits...but chaos warriors can have 2str 4 hits with a 2+ save in combat! so against high elves that kills us.

If high elves didnt have asf anymore they would need to do something about its armour or maybe give them something connected with they skill. like a dodge save or something like that.

Or how about we give them a 5+ ward and fear on the whole army?
or a 4+ armour save on most there units with abilites to make the units regenerate, - to hit or immune to psycol

Or hell even the change to raise more troops since there simple enough to kill?

i dont mind other armys having all these new rules as brings a new element to the game . They must think about what it will do to gamers and for ever 10 that bitch about it online 500 probably love it.

So if you cant handle new rules, go play pokemon or yu-gi-oh or something else

Everything you say applies to many other armies. 5+ armor save on your infantry? Empire has the same or worse, and HEs have more units with better saves than Empire. Knights getting charged bad? That applies to any unit of knights in any army. Toughness 3 troops? Empire, Bretonnia, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Skaven, Vampire Counts, etc, etc, etc, all have toughness three infantry.

Stop crying a river about how meek the High Elves are please. By your reasoning many more armies should get ASF to cancel out the low toughness and low armor saves of their infantry as well.

Oh, and great "pokemon or yu-gi-oh" line btw, really shows your maturity. The less-stupid line would have been "play 6th edition or use house rules", just for future reference.

chivalrous
22-01-2009, 14:39
Stop crying a river about how meek the High Elves are please. By your reasoning many more armies should get ASF to cancel out the low toughness and low armor saves of their infantry as well.

In his defence and anyone else supporting High Elves, they do pay through the nose for ASF on their core troops.

fastcarfreak
22-01-2009, 15:33
I think the rule is decent, but for more specialized units and characters only. In the end it ruins more for the high elf players than it helps. But having it on certain items/characters would only be cool pikemen, swordmasters, DE assassins etc.


Im curious how it ruins anything for the high elf player? How is always striking first considered a crutch in any sense. If you know how to play, you will almost never get flanked, you will always have the flank opportunity, and if you do get flanked, you still get to strike first as to help remove some of those casualties you may take....

Condottiere
22-01-2009, 16:24
It's interesting that the most successful HE build is the Star Dragon/Dragon Princes steamroller, which relies on attacking to win.

Emeraldw
22-01-2009, 16:26
In his defence and anyone else supporting High Elves, they do pay through the nose for ASF on their core troops.

but thankfully we only need 2 Cores.

Asf as it is needs some revision. I would like to see that when 2 units meet that both have Asf, Asf is completely ignored.

I like Asf on units. There is still plenty of reason to get the charge with a bunch of units but having the option of making them charge you and still going first supports the more defensive view of High Elves over other armies. I don't know about great weapons.

Also, other than High Elves, ASF isn't that common.

darkace77450
22-01-2009, 16:55
Also, other than High Elves, ASF isn't that common.

Uncommon is exactly what it should be. It should be on the odd unit, special character, spell, or magic item. If it becomes too commonplace, it changes from being a special rule and becomes a common rule. And, imho, ASF should not be so common.

Cherrystone
22-01-2009, 17:04
They answered this in the FAQ Part II of the BRB. You strike in Strict I order if both units have ASF. If they are the same, dice off.

And thats why we house rule it because it dosnt take into account charging and great weapons etc, it allows some tactical options for example, make a unit of skeletons ASF to charge highelfs, under the official rules the undead would still fight last. Also Sword Masters have a slight disbenefit when fighting other ASF units without great weapons.

Condottiere
22-01-2009, 17:12
ASF should give way to a revised initiative stat, which would include all the normal elements associated with what determines who strikes first.

orkz222
22-01-2009, 17:47
There might at times be a slight overabundance of ASF in the army books, if it gets worse soon half of the units have ASF and then the designers need to invent ASMF (Always Strikes Most Firstest) .

LOL :D

ASF is quite interesting for HE. I'll like to see it return in 8th ed even though i dont play HE.

Lord Dan
22-01-2009, 17:54
It was never a problem until "everything" had it. Then people went beserk. Really I suppose the same thing would happen with any special rule if tons of units started having it.

Desert Rain
22-01-2009, 18:02
I think that ASF should remain, it gives our army an 'elite' feel that I think is entirely appropirate. I think that they should change the ASF rule a bit to become like others have suggested before me: ASF vs ASF cancels out both abilities so that all the normal initiative rules apply.

Nuada
22-01-2009, 18:04
ASF should give way to a revised initiative stat, which would include all the normal elements associated with what determines who strikes first.

I've heard alot of people wishing this would happen. Two ASF units cancel each others ASF, it does make sense. And would make my orcs alot better against HEs

Griefbringer
22-01-2009, 18:11
Mind it, if the ASMF (Always Strikes Most Firstest) rule becomes too common, there is still the potential to introduce RASMFE (Really Always Strikes Most Firstest Ever) special rule that trumps it.

And after that, there is always potential for the SLCN (Strikes Like Chuck Norris) rule. Though by the time they introduce that, probably hardly anyone is anymore using the initiative stat.

Faust
22-01-2009, 18:27
Everything you say applies to many other armies. 5+ armor save on your infantry? Empire has the same or worse, and HEs have more units with better saves than Empire. Knights getting charged bad? That applies to any unit of knights in any army. Toughness 3 troops? Empire, Bretonnia, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Skaven, Vampire Counts, etc, etc, etc, all have toughness three infantry.

Stop crying a river about how meek the High Elves are please. By your reasoning many more armies should get ASF to cancel out the low toughness and low armor saves of their infantry as well.

Oh, and great "pokemon or yu-gi-oh" line btw, really shows your maturity. The less-stupid line would have been "play 6th edition or use house rules", just for future reference.


Everything does apply, but lets think for a moment. Empire have detachments, cannons, cheap core, Steam tank. Empire can put more units with a better save than High Elves can.


Toughness 3 troops? Empire, Bretonnia, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Skaven, Vampire Counts, etc, etc, etc, all have toughness three infantry.
Again Empire Bretonnia are cheaper, Dark Elves are cheap and have hatred, Wood Elves have other units to compensate (not to mention dryads...:rolleyes:) Skaven have Ld modifiers and numbers and Vampire Counts can raise troops.

So this time around, some armies can buy 2 troops for a High Elf Spearmen. Usually. Then with the ASF rule, great str3 attacks coming at you. For SM and WL yeah some pain, but chariots still work great. Use your noodle. There are ways around it.


It's interesting that the most successful HE build is the Star Dragon/Dragon Princes steamroller, which relies on attacking to win.
Funny..... who would have thought that attacking is a good idea.;)

Sure it is becoming more common, but the books are changing and 8th will come out. Who knows what will change. Till then, rant about how OP Lizardmen are, this poll is not keeping with the theme on Warseer.;)

Condottiere
22-01-2009, 20:02
Till then, rant about how OP Lizardmen are, this poll is not keeping with the theme on Warseer.;)Oh yes, how over the top the new army book is, a rather endearing Warseer tradition. :D

But if it is, that's for another thread.

Faust
22-01-2009, 21:04
@ Condottiere

You can start the thread. Glad that you share my humor.

Neckutter
22-01-2009, 21:18
while i like the HE ASF rule, i dont think it should be automatic. i think the writers of the book, should have made it like this: "speed of asuran: before a round of HtH, the HE unit must make a leadership check(ignoring any negative modifiers, but being able to use a character's higher leadership). if the check is passed, the unit has a strong resolve to win the combat and counts as having the ASF rule. this is done every round of HtH."

thus it woundnt be such a "no-brainer" of a rule. and afterall fantasy is all about things being hectic. plus it would be fun to think of a unit gritting it's teeth and hunkering down to dispatch its foes.

darkace77450
22-01-2009, 21:27
I think that ASF should remain, it gives our army an 'elite' feel that I think is entirely appropirate. I think that they should change the ASF rule a bit to become like others have suggested before me: ASF vs ASF cancels out both abilities so that all the normal initiative rules apply.


Is the high ld, ws, i, and movement, and great magic not enough to already establish high elves are elite warriors? It is like Chaos Knights vs Blood Knights vs Grail Knights; each time one of the units gets an upgrade the other two have to have even better upgrades because they all want to be represented as elite...and pretty soon you have three very ridiculously over-powered units.



but chariots still work great


And exactly how many armies have chariots? And there are two points about chariots:
1) they should hit hard on the charge against everyone, HEs included.
2) they are easily dealt with by any able general worth his salt.

Neckutter
22-01-2009, 21:41
the deadliest chariot HE can face, would be the snotling pump wagon(40 points). 2d6 S4 hits are gross when your whole army(not including cavalry) is T3, and 5+ armor.

that being said most other chariots usually kill d6+1 of my HE, then the chariot evaporates due do so many swordmasters slice-and-dicing it. and if the chariot flubbs the roll for hits, then it is a waste.

AramilSairSianontel
22-01-2009, 22:15
Yeah right HE should be the army walks over.
Maybe we should make a ld test to see if we can take a star dragon?

Sure High Elves have always strike first -the whole army?
The whole army no matter if they're archers or dragon princes, ok but the horses don't right? Right-how could a horse or a dragon or a griffon have ASF?
Just.
The DE on other hand have hatred.
The whole army.
The whole army right down to the horses.EVEN THE HORSES HAVE HATRED.
My dragon is the most ancient and terrible and his gets to re-roll all rolls to hit...

Maybe we should make HE toughness 2

Neckutter
22-01-2009, 22:25
which DE mount has hatred? none.
so when the DE rider is dead, the dragon no longer rerolls hits.

and i for one dont think hydras should have hatred, but whatever.

EDIT: and i think the WoC dragon character is older than a star dragon.

omgadinosaur
22-01-2009, 23:09
which DE mount has hatred? none.
so when the DE rider is dead, the dragon no longer rerolls hits.

and i for one dont think hydras should have hatred, but whatever.

EDIT: and i think the WoC dragon character is older than a star dragon.


It still doesn't make since that a character could confer hatred to their mount.

I feel he was just pointing out that there are a lot of things in warhammer that don't make since, and if GW is going to start fixing them there are bigger fish to fry.

As to the person who mentioned that HE warriors have high I, LD, M, and WS the problem is those stats don't translate to killing things. GW has made it so that high S and T=god status.

ASF gives HE an edge but doesn't cross the line into cheesy or broken therefor I think GW should be fine with it. I'm sure someone could argue that HE should have army wide killing blow.


New Rule: Super Killing Blow. On a role of 6 you insta-kill the model. Roll a d6. This number of models are also killed, weather they where in the combat or not.


Oh, and I think that Star Dragons and the CW Dragon are probably roughly the same age. From what i can remember, the CW Dragon is the oldest of all Chaos Dragons while Star Dragons are the oldest of the High Elf dragons. The boost that the CWSC has can be attributed to chaos mutations!1!

Condottiere
22-01-2009, 23:10
@ Condottiere

You can start the thread. Glad that you share my humor.Well, LM aren't really my cup of tea, and what pissed me off in the current book were clouds of skinks like flies on dead meat. Infiltrated skinks.

Like to experience a game first against them before I pronounce Doom.:cheese:

Lord Dan
23-01-2009, 01:00
Oh yes, how over the top the new army book is, a rather endearing Warseer tradition. :D

It's interesting how most of the people who complained about the OK release don't say too much these days.

Condottiere
23-01-2009, 08:51
While I didn't much of the Ogres as a standalone army, I was happy to see them.

After all, you run a bunch of Ogres against an ASF wall, you impact first.

AramilSairSianontel
23-01-2009, 10:51
which DE mount has hatred? none.
so when the DE rider is dead, the dragon no longer rerolls hits.

and i for one dont think hydras should have hatred, but whatever.

EDIT: and i think the WoC dragon character is older than a star dragon.

You're wrong.
Read the book. p.43 All mounts have hatred as long as their riders are alive. All horses have hatred. Manticores have hatred. Everything in this army hates everything. HOW can that be explained?

The DE dragon will keep rerolling hits bec the DE rider WILL NEVER DIE-i don't think that needs explaining the new dreadlord is just super tough and undying but i don't say that's cheese. It's just a great lord choise.
You just try to kill the dragon.
You're right about the hydras.

Oh you mean Galrauch? Not nessecerily no...After all he was a Star dragon before becoming..that horrid mutated
monstrosity that is now.

Lijacote
23-01-2009, 15:36
They say that a vicious upbringing will make a pet vicious.

I don't have a hard time imagining a dreadlord giving the dragon a good spanking every now and then, with added high elf slave flesh on a stick. Or a beastmaster poking the hydra until it hates everything, everyone and forever.

Neckutter
23-01-2009, 17:44
You're wrong.
Read the book. p.43 All mounts have hatred as long as their riders are alive. All horses have hatred. Manticores have hatred. Everything in this army hates everything. HOW can that be explained?

The DE dragon will keep rerolling hits bec the DE rider WILL NEVER DIE-i don't think that needs explaining the new dreadlord is just super tough and undying but i don't say that's cheese. It's just a great lord choise.
You just try to kill the dragon.
You're right about the hydras.
.


you read the book. tell me which DE mount has hatred. and im still correct saying that none do. and if you were to read my post you would see that the BRB gives the mount hatred if the rider is affected by it. once you kill the rider, the mount wont be affected by hatred. and yes, i agree that the dreadlord is a BEAST in killing. you can have regeneration armor, AND the pendant of khaleth.

when i play my prince on star dragon, i usually get killed out from underneath it during the battle on turn 4 or 5. besides cannons/bolt throwers/giants, he usually dies or gets dismounted. at any rate, the star dragon is stronger and more healthy than any other dragon.

i have yet to play my DE. probably play them this sunday or saturday. i spent the whole day on tuesday gluing the final units together. and the damn hydra's necks keep breaking so i had to pin ALL of his necks and tail, and greenstuff AND superglue and BLAH. i hate that model.

and what i think youre mad about, is that Gav in his departure decided to make the DE army really strong as a "parting shot". kinda lame, but its Gav. its not like he is objective about the army or anything. and if he read this, he would agree that he CANT be objective about skaven or DE.