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View Full Version : TH/SS Termies. Balance at last?



Banville
21-01-2009, 21:51
Just thought I'd take a quick sounding as to people's opinion on the improved TH/SS combination. The unit is cropping up in a lot of lists, apart from those lists built around podding Sternguard. Looking at other forums as well as Loyalist Marines (I play Tau too) there seems to be remarkably little hue and cry about them. Compared to the gasps of outrage and indignation at the quality of some of the Characters the 3++ of the Storm Shield doesn't seem to have provoked a huge reaction.

Basically do people think that, at long last, a Termie is worth his 40pts and also is as rock-hard as his fluff suggests? Or do people think that Storm Shields, particularly Termie Shields, are "broken"?

I am of the former opinion in that I think a Termie Squad loaded out with TH/SS is an extremely "balanced" unit for its cost and is far from game-winning without intelligent application.

Any comments?

Jmanj
21-01-2009, 22:16
I don't really see any problems with them, because for me, they still die exactly the same. I have never been a pump a bunch of ap 1/2 shots into terminators to kill them. Usually, it is just torrent of fire/attacks and let them roll their saves. In addition, they aren't exactly fast and if they want a transport it is expensive.

eek107
21-01-2009, 22:19
I've yet to launch them out of a Land Raider Redeemer (Sallies player), but footslogging them isn't exactly point and click - they still die to lasguns, bolters and the like as easy as the regular kind. And they have to take more hits before they can start dishing out the hurt compared to normal Termies.
So all that considered... yes, I think you get pretty much what you pay for.

IronNerd
21-01-2009, 22:25
I've yet to see them on the battlefield, but I think it's open to abuse. Seems to me that sticking a lot of these guys on the battlefield is going to make it difficult for some armies to win. Yeah, some people deal with termies by firing a lot of shots their way (most likely how my Tau will do it), but some of us do rely on low AP weapons (like my Chaos) to do the trick. Most of my Chaos lists will struggle when facing a large number of TH/SS termies. I think a 4++ would have been sufficient personally...

The_Outsider
21-01-2009, 22:28
The invulnerable save against shooting is a cop out answer - the unit always was good, it just required you to heavily factor them in when building a list (a problem that all high cost CC units suffer from) - but now it is just so easy to put them into a list.

I wouldn't call them broken as termies have always been worth it at 40 points (or even at 42 like they used to be a long time ago) - the problem lies in that terminators (unless you build a list around them) do not function well at 1500 points.

Reflex
21-01-2009, 23:00
Broken? no
Tactically viable and a threat? yes

asdfghjkl
21-01-2009, 23:04
I think LC terminators should have kept furious charge.... at the moment TH/SS is the far superior combo.

TheOneWithNoName
21-01-2009, 23:10
How can they be balanced if we've seen their usage increase exponential while regular Terminators have been pushed to the side?

Bookwrak
22-01-2009, 00:30
Because regular terminators have always been a bit on the under-performing side.

Minister
22-01-2009, 00:42
Whilst the thunderhammer and stormshield models have always been remarkably sweet looking, but an inferior choice for deploying in-game.

Draconian77
22-01-2009, 00:54
As a Tyranid player that relies on shooting I find TH/SS Terminators to be underwhelming. You can just ignore them for most of the game and then spend one turn getting rid of them.

Now, against other armies with armour piercing guns I imagine they are quite useful.

In a Land Raider they are probably great assassins but anything coming in at 500ish points should be.

I would always plump for regular Terminators with a Cyclone if I played Marines myself but overall its nice to see them being used, I had never seen a unit of TH/SS Terminators before the new book.

Damocles8
22-01-2009, 01:00
I've always mixed the units.....some SS/TH to take some hits from power weapons/monstrous creatures and LC Termies to swing while they can....

Shangrila
22-01-2009, 01:10
I love my termies and both kinds have usually preformed ok but now with them having fleet and all there quite the awesome unit.

Krusty
22-01-2009, 01:14
As a Tyranid player that relies on shooting I find TH/SS Terminators to be underwhelming. You can just ignore them for most of the game and then spend one turn getting rid of them.



im gunna have to disagree

usually when i take down terminators, its with a fex or hive tyrant...
i dont like them having their save jump from a 5+ to 3+ when those t hams will be smashing my big bugs if they dont get the job done right...

but either way, i find them (th+ss) pretty balanced

imweasel
22-01-2009, 02:11
I try to put 8 ss/th termies in a crusader in all my lists.

Most of the time only 3 or 4 are left at the end of the fight, but they come through.

It's a huge threat that can't be ignored.

AngryAngel
22-01-2009, 05:52
I like the idea of rocking them out with 3 LC termies and 2 Th SS termies to soak up some of the extra hate from MC's they may go after, or the random powerfist. A whole squad of TH SS termies may be a bit much.

Marlow
22-01-2009, 06:14
7 + Character or 8 Assault Termies in a crusader is the way to go.
I think it is worth have a couple with Claws and the rest as TH/SS

Vaktathi
22-01-2009, 06:21
Just thought I'd take a quick sounding as to people's opinion on the improved TH/SS combination. The unit is cropping up in a lot of lists, apart from those lists built around podding Sternguard. Looking at other forums as well as Loyalist Marines (I play Tau too) there seems to be remarkably little hue and cry about them. Compared to the gasps of outrage and indignation at the quality of some of the Characters the 3++ of the Storm Shield doesn't seem to have provoked a huge reaction.

Basically do people think that, at long last, a Termie is worth his 40pts and also is as rock-hard as his fluff suggests? Or do people think that Storm Shields, particularly Termie Shields, are "broken"?

I am of the former opinion in that I think a Termie Squad loaded out with TH/SS is an extremely "balanced" unit for its cost and is far from game-winning without intelligent application.

Any comments?

Personally I think that the 3+ is excessive. Power armor invul saves are not something that a normal unit should have in addition to a 2+ armor and Über-fist. I think a 4+ against *all* attacks would have sufficed. For only 40pts, they are way too cheap for what they are capable of, especially in a Vulkan army. A CSM termi with a 4+ invul (MoT) goes back to 5+ if the icon guy dies, and for a 5man squad and equipped with powerfists comes out to 235 pts, with only a 4+ that can be lost with the only advantage being that they have a bolter for 7pts more per model.

This is further exploited through the current wound allocation system. Take 2 SS/TH guys in a squad with 5 LC guys, put the plasma gun wounds on SS/TH guys and the bolter shots on the LC guys and it gets very exploitative and gamey.

willydstyle
22-01-2009, 06:29
I think LC terminators should have kept furious charge.... at the moment TH/SS is the far superior combo.

Except against Orks, where having 3 attacks that re-roll wounds is a whole lot killier. The squad is a bit more vulnerable to Klaw-nobs, but kills the boyz a lot faster, and can kill claw-armed bosses before that klaw rips the squad in half.

Pyriel
22-01-2009, 06:36
basically, the bane of their termies is their cost-to-durability.
that's right-vs small arms, compared to a tacsquad, termies are more resilient...NOT.

a 2+ save misses on a 1.
a 3+save misses on 1/2(twice as many numbers)
so a single terminator is twice as tough as a tactical marine.does he cost twice as much?
NO.5 termies are 200, 10 tacmarines are 170. this means that the terminators, defense-wise, are not more resilient point-for-point tha tacmarines against small arms. so what if they are somewhat more resilient to AP fire?it just balances them out defensively, since offensively they're too slow to properly utilize their (strong, nonetheless) equipment.

Vaktathi
22-01-2009, 06:48
basically, the bane of their termies is their cost-to-durability.
that's right-vs small arms, compared to a tacsquad, termies are more resilient...NOT.

a 2+ save misses on a 1.
a 3+save misses on 1/2(twice as many numbers)
so a single terminator is twice as tough as a tactical marine.does he cost twice as much?
NO.5 termies are 200, 10 tacmarines are 170. this means that the terminators, defense-wise, are not more resilient point-for-point tha tacmarines against small arms. so what if they are somewhat more resilient to AP fire?it just balances them out defensively, since offensively they're too slow to properly utilize their (strong, nonetheless) equipment.

Against small arms true, but not only does the Terminator get it's armor save against a greater variety of weapons, it gets another save even when it doesn't, and far exceeds a normal Space Marine in close combat capability, and can deep strike without buying a drop pod.

Against AP3 fire, the terminators are 5 times as survivable as the normal Space Marine. Against the weapons that Space Marines really fear, a terminator is far more survivable, and against such weapons the SS/TH terminator is as survivable as that normal SM is against small arms fire, while still packing an amazing punch in CC, for a still very cheap price.

Pyriel
22-01-2009, 07:03
in 4th, yes. in 5th, 70% of units have 4+ cover anyway, so the bonus isnt really that big.
disregarding objectives, a well-equiped tacsquad will outperform a 5-man termies squad in most games-especially due to cheaper transports.
the 3++save makes termies balanced, but not broken, not exactly powerful either.
even if i had to face 10 cc termies i wouldnt really be scared-too dang slow.
they always cost 400+ points, either 10, or 5 in a land raider-and yes, land raiders dont scare me either.

now 60-70 marines in transports or , thats another story.
points-wise, instead of 5 termies in land raider i can get 20(!) more tactical marines on rhinos or 9(9!!!!) multimelta bikes.I'd prefer that... the 3++ save just turns them into candidates for the list, doesnt even turn them to cheesy.

Radium
22-01-2009, 07:16
I deal with them as I always have dealt with terminators: lots of 'small' arms fire (as an Eldar player, small arms fire means LOTS of str 6 weapons).
So there's no real problem for me with the 3++. I do think, however, it is just to much to give a regular infantry unit a 3++ save, those were always reserved for the very special units in the game. Much like ws/bs 6 was not for space marines, but that's another story.

Nym
22-01-2009, 08:35
TH/SS alone are not broken at all. Things start to get bad when you mix them with LC terminators to abuse the wound allocation system (putting Power weapon wounds on the 3++ termies and the regular wounds on the LCs). Add a chapie here and it gets frightening.

That doesn't make them overpowered though, just fearsome.

marv335
22-01-2009, 08:54
they don't bother my Orks at all.
I don't have much in the way of Ap2 weaponry anyway so I use volume of fire, then volume of attacks to deal with them.
When they're always getting their 2+ save anyway, a 3++ isn't a big deal.
On average, make a 5 man terminator squad take 30 saves and they'll fail 5.
Inflicting 30 wounds on a squad isn't difficult for an mob of Orks :D

Bunnahabhain
22-01-2009, 12:56
They're one of the reasons that my rough riders are seeing less use.
A squad of rough riders, if used carefully, used to be able to break the back of a squad of terminators.

With a 3++ save to contend with on quite a number of their targets, they simply don't have the impact any more, as well as 5th ed making them harder to hide. The hell-hound in the same slot is more appealing, and them less.

TH + SS termies are clearly not balanced vs other terminators, or their use wouldn't have exploded. They're hard and characterful. The Vulcan bonus and wound allocation games is what starts to make them a bit over the top. I'm leaning towards the drown them in shots approach. Hopefully enough rapid fire lasguns can cook them alive in their armour or something....

A 4++ save vs shooting would have been sufficient, save the 3++ for combat.

Kalec
22-01-2009, 14:09
TH/SS termies are finally usable. The LC termies need a boost of some sort, they always have been below par. Both types of assault termies have been for a long time, now that one of them is good suddenly people complain.

Vaktathi
22-01-2009, 14:17
TH/SS termies are finally usable. The LC termies need a boost of some sort, they always have been below par. Both types of assault termies have been for a long time, now that one of them is good suddenly people complain.

How are LC termi's in any way below par? 4 attacks on a charge that ignore armor and re-roll wounds with a 2+/5+ save and can Deep Strike is terrible for a 40pt model?

The_Outsider
22-01-2009, 14:30
As i've said before, terminators struggle to work at 1500 unless you go all out to include them. By giving SS/TH termies a 3++ save GW has tried to make terminators viable in any 1500 list and have failed horribly - they are now far more durable (especially given their killing power) than they should be for 40 points a pop.

Ubermensch Commander
22-01-2009, 16:21
They are hardly broken. They just are finally DURABLE in close combat. Now they can actually take on Monstrous creatures with a good chance of survival. Yay! A threat at last! My Salamanders and my love of Thunderhammers rejoices.
With the prevelance of 4++ cover, a 3+ invulnerable save is NOT that big of a deal. They lack any sort of long range fire power so if you pop their transport at any kind of range, they are become almost a nil factor.
Deep striking? A turn of vulnerability since they cannot assault the turn they land.
They are also still very vulnerable to Horder attacks as they are too cost prohibitive to run in large numbers and do not have that many attacks (The base Chaos Space Marine gets as many). While those attacks may hit HARD squishing a few Orks or Gaunts that are fearles will not end well for the swamped TH/SS Termies.

They have finally come into their own as a threat to Monstrous Creatures and Big Nasty Vehicles. They have been improved. But I do not find them to be overbalanced, save perhaps with the fleeting rule with Shrike. But I just have issues with ninja ballarina Terminators in general, never mind their effectiveness on the field of battle.

The_Outsider
22-01-2009, 16:25
They are hardly broken. They just are finally DURABLE in close combat.

Yet having a 4+ inv. in close combat for the last 2 editions isn't durable enough?

Ubermensch Commander
22-01-2009, 16:36
@ Outsider
Not really, No. Considering how much one payed for them and their abilities, it did not balance out to being any kind of real threat. Can you recall that last time someone went "Oh man! That TH/SS unit ripped through my army!" in the same manner as other "god squads" from other army lists? I certainly cannot.
Especially when they only received a 5+ against shooting that ignored armor...and there is/was alot of that.
Also, in my own experience, I found that they died far too easily aganst monstrous creatures, one of the things they should be able to deal with easily, given their weakness against smaller critters.

willydstyle
22-01-2009, 16:40
I think the fact that they are tougher against some enemies in CC makes up for the fact that they have no ranged attack, no more attacks than a standard terminator, and automatically go last. Against even a half-way decent CC force (say a decently equipped CSM squad or Ork mob) it's hard for a terminator squad not to fail a couple of 2+ saves before they get to strike: especially if they weren't able to soften them up with shooting before the assault.

I have to agree that TH/SS terminators are just about right.

Now give them to the other chapters.

eek107
22-01-2009, 17:03
Yet having a 4+ inv. in close combat for the last 2 editions isn't durable enough?

Having never seen them used in those past two editions... I'm gonna go with "no".

Neftus
22-01-2009, 17:28
Compared to other elite infantry like nobz and jugernaughts, they’re not that OTT.

You’re still spending 40 points on a single wound model.

They play their specific role very well, but have obvious short-comings. I feel regular shooty terminators should be brought up to their level of competitiveness.

Madfool2
22-01-2009, 17:37
Yet having a 4+ inv. in close combat for the last 2 editions isn't durable enough?

Actually no, not at all, because unless you packed them in a land raider of some kind, they'd probably never make it to combat, they died to AP2 weapons just as easily as regular terminators, and if you deep struck them, well we all know how that works.