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View Full Version : Who would win, BT or KoS?



shadowtiger99
22-01-2009, 16:54
I was having an argueement with a friend 2day about who would win in a fight between a bloodthirster and a keeper of secrets, so here i am posing this argueement to the great people of warseer.


This agrueement is in-game and fluff

Thanks inadvance

captain ceaser
22-01-2009, 16:57
straight up cc brawl. Thirster every time fluff wise

weissengel86
22-01-2009, 17:48
Fluff wise yes the bloodthirster would almost always win. But using the rules from the codex the keeper of secrets has a chance to win a certain amount of the time. Bloodthirster may be brutal but the KoS has 10 I and more attacks enough to kill the Bloodthirster before he can hit back especially with only a 4+ save. In fact even a Great unclean one can kill a bloodthirster because of the wound on 2+.

Meriwether
22-01-2009, 19:01
The one with the better dice.

Meri

edit: But seriously, it isn't that hard to mathhammer it (with one charging, then the other, then neither) to see who would -- ON AVERAGE -- come out on top.)

carldooley
22-01-2009, 19:47
The one with the better dice.

Meri

edit: But seriously, it isn't that hard to mathhammer it (with one charging, then the other, then neither) to see who would -- ON AVERAGE -- come out on top.)

agreed, however if you go with the codex, and both take all upgrades, the keeper would likely win every time. both because it gets to strike first, and with Aura of acquiescence and tranfixing gaze, the bloodthirster would be losing 2A every turn.

Meriwether
23-01-2009, 11:14
Sounds about right, but have you done the math? I'd like to see it.

Meri

Griefbringer
23-01-2009, 11:30
Fluff-wise, I would say that it depends on context:

- Codex Khorne: Bloodthirster beats the Keeper of Secrets through his übersome strenght and awesome killyness, and then spends the next half an hour cutting the rest of the Slaaneshi daemon horde into tiny pieces.

- Codex Slaanesh: through its übersome cunning and awesome speed, the Keeper of Secret manages to beat and imprison the mighty Bloodthirster, who is now forced to serve the next thousand years as a pleasure-slave to the wicked Slaaneshi daemon.

- Codex Space Marines: Marneus Calgar takes on both of the daemons at the same time, and beats them, because the Ultramarines are übersome and awesome.

- Action movie from 1980's: Chuck Norris takes on both of the daemons AND Marneus Calgar at the same time, and beats them back to the 70's. Movie ends with a shot of the Keeper of Secrets entering Studio 54 with a brand-new afro-haircut.

Dezmord
23-01-2009, 11:50
Let us assume both have all upgrades, apart from the shooting attacks.

Version 1: Bloodthirster charging

KoS attacks first

6 Attacks, hitting on 4+ = 3 hits
chance to wound: 3+

3 x 2/3 = 2 wounds

BT saves 1 wound

BT fights back

5+1 Attack - 2 Attacks (KoS-powers) = 4 Attacks
4 A x 2/3 (chance to hit on 3+) = 2,64 hits

BT: S 9 (furious charge+unholy might) KoS: T 6 = BT wounds on 2+
chance to wound = 5/6

2,64 x 5/6 = 2,2

KoS saves 1,1

result: It would take both 4 rounds to kill the enemy, but as the KoS is faster, he would win

Version 2: KoS charging

No big change for the BT, as he has the same amount of attacks and his strength is still 2 points higher than the KoS toughness.

Kriegschmidt
23-01-2009, 12:01
The maths are sound... but in reality they would fight for a thousand years with neither getting the upper hand, then would give up and have lots of sex and babies.

mattschuur
23-01-2009, 13:08
My gaming colleagues have discussed this situation multiple times and have found that the KOS will win almost every time unless the dice gods disagree, which imo is sad. The greatest warrior of basically the god of war can't beat the top perv of the god of pervs?(I like slaanesh so not bashing). Maybe Khorne thinks the Keeper of secrets skull is too ugly and doesn't want it so the Bloodthirster just isn't into killing it.

Frankly, its just sad that a Great unclean one can own any monster in the game with no upgrades. I've seen one take down two Carnifex's before genestealers killed it. Allessio and Gav thorpe must have really liked Nurgle because they have the best everthing in that book.

matt schuur

the_picto
23-01-2009, 13:23
Frankly, its just sad that a Great unclean one can own any monster in the game with no upgrades. I've seen one take down two Carnifex's before genestealers killed it. Allessio and Gav thorpe must have really liked Nurgle because they have the best everthing in that book.

matt schuur

I wouldn't have thought it could own any monster in the game, frankly it should be an effort to kill a similarly priced fex. Alot of MCs are wounding the GU on 2s, so it doesn't have a massive advantage there and of course he loses his FnP as well. He lacks the attacks and weapon skill to reliably take down thirsters, avatars or hive tyrants etc. God forbid it ever has to fight a nightbringer.

loveless
23-01-2009, 13:40
I always figured a Keeper would beat a Bloodthirster.

1) It's a cooler name and a cooler model - ergo, it wins by rule of cool.
2) It's faster and more cunning, which is always more important than raw strength.
3) Slaanesh is younger than Khorne, so he obviously has fresher ideas about how to make his Greater Daemons :p

Meriwether
23-01-2009, 14:05
result: It would take both 4 rounds to kill the enemy, but as the KoS is faster, he would win

So the KoS wins (barely), with only one wound left.

How do the fully-kitted models compare points-wise?

Meri

Dezmord
23-01-2009, 22:58
How do the fully-kitted models compare points-wise?

KoS: all upgrades minus gaze of the gods and avane (the minor lash) = 250

BT: all upgrades minus the khorne-shooting-power (don't know the english name...) = 280


Frankly, its just sad that a Great unclean one can own any monster in the game with no upgrades.
I haven't done the math yet, but after having looked at his stats and his possible upgrades, he would surely loose against both the KoS and the BT. On the other hand, it's important to know, that he is considerably cheaper than both.

Skyth
23-01-2009, 23:55
Funny thing is, from the title I thought people were asking about Black Templars vs Kult of Speed...

ShadowDeth
24-01-2009, 00:01
The keeper wins because even though the Thirster has the WS and S edge on the keeper, he always goes first and is essentially always a turn ahead.

And all the strength in the world doesn't really matter when there is a hard 4+ invulnerable stopping 50% of all attacks. The keeper goes first, has more attacks and will thus win combat every time.

Getifa Ubazza
24-01-2009, 00:04
Funny thing is, from the title I thought people were asking about Black Templars vs Kult of Speed...Your not the only one. :D

Metaphorazine
24-01-2009, 01:51
Funny thing is, from the title I thought people were asking about Black Templars vs Kult of Speed...

Agreed, I was very disappointed when I opened the thread. :D

holmcross
24-01-2009, 02:13
Fluff-wise, I would say that it depends on context:

- Codex Khorne: Bloodthirster beats the Keeper of Secrets through his übersome strenght and awesome killyness, and then spends the next half an hour cutting the rest of the Slaaneshi daemon horde into tiny pieces.

- Codex Slaanesh: through its übersome cunning and awesome speed, the Keeper of Secret manages to beat and imprison the mighty Bloodthirster, who is now forced to serve the next thousand years as a pleasure-slave to the wicked Slaaneshi daemon.

- Codex Space Marines: Marneus Calgar takes on both of the daemons at the same time, and beats them, because the Ultramarines are übersome and awesome.

- Action movie from 1980's: Chuck Norris takes on both of the daemons AND Marneus Calgar at the same time, and beats them back to the 70's. Movie ends with a shot of the Keeper of Secrets entering Studio 54 with a brand-new afro-haircut.

My friend, you have cracked the code of GW's fluff writers.

Dexter099
24-01-2009, 02:44
Redrivertears actually did this on Warseer. The Keeper won handily.

PumaKiller
24-01-2009, 03:55
I've rolled the dice between the two several times for fun and almost every time the Keeper wins. Also remember with the Soporific Musk the Keeper will actually get the charge bonus every other turn unless he rolls a 6 on his initiative check.

TrojanWolf
24-01-2009, 04:57
In fluff, the Bloodthirster would win. In the previous Codex: Chaos Space Marines it says that Slaanesh can't seriously challenge Khorne because he suffers from ADHD and can't stick to doing one thing for too long, whereas Khorne has anger management problems and simply wants to kill everything. The Keeper of Secrets would get bored and the Bloodthirster would hack it in two. Then three. Then more.

Plastic Parody
24-01-2009, 10:48
The maths are sound... but in reality they would fight for a thousand years with neither getting the upper hand, then would give up and have lots of sex and babies.

as long as its angry sex Im sure the BT wouldnt mind

Inach
24-01-2009, 22:17
5+1 Attack - 2 Attacks (KoS-powers) = 4 Attacks

The Transfixing gaze only prevents 1? From wich is the other -1 attack?

Azhrarn
24-01-2009, 23:35
The Transfixing gaze only prevents 1? From wich is the other -1 attack?

Aura of Aquiescence includes defensive grenades, those only kick in if the BT charges, which it does in this scenario. (and prevents the bonus attack from charging, but does nothing if the KoS charges)

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
24-01-2009, 23:46
I think odds favor the Keeper because it has more attacks, grenades, high initiative, and some nifty abilities.

I don't think any of the gifts that the Blood Thirster can get would really help against a Keeper.

And background-wise, Slaanesh would distract Khorne with a bit of string and then get on with his/her orgies.

susu.exp
25-01-2009, 01:38
Actually... The KoS would probably lose. The probability for killing the opponent after n rounds of combat:
n BT killed KoS killed
1 0.9% 0.6%
2 12.4% 13.6%
3 30.4% 30.5%
4 40.6% 40.9%
5 44.9% 46.7%
6 46.5% 49.9%
7 46.9% 51.6%
8 46.9% 52.5%
9 46.8% 53.0%
10 46.7% 53.2%
11 46.7% 53.3%
12 46.6% 53.3%
13 46.6% 53.4%

This does not include the KoS charge bonus every second round, which turns it into:
BT killed KoS killed
1 1.8% 0.6%
2 9.4% 14.1%
3 35.9% 28.1%
4 42.8% 39.4%
5 48.4% 43.7%
6 49.5% 47.1%
7 50.2% 48.4%
8 50.1% 49.3%
9 50.1% 49.7%
10 50.0% 49.9%
11 50.0% 50.0%
12 50.0% 50.0%
13 50.0% 50.0%

So roll a D6 for it...