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Nicha11
23-01-2009, 04:23
This Thread is a place for those who have seen the new army book to post reviews of it.
The reviews can be as in depth or as general as you like, here is mine:

Background:

Excellent, in depth, new and with lots of colourful stories. The artwork is also top notch.

Army List:

Not paticularily different to the last one except for a few changes here and there.

Special Characters:

All are colourful some are must gets, unfortunately the slann sc's are a waste of time.

Magic Items section:

Top notch actually, the weapons especially are very very nice.

Army Power Level:

IMO not deamons but maybe up their with medium hard VC.

Overall:

An excellent army book with good background and i good list. It gets an 8 and a half.

Emeraldw
23-01-2009, 04:45
Balance isn't something we can comment on at this time. It's just too new.

Though it is good to know the fluff is great.

Wrathiel
23-01-2009, 05:34
I actually like the special characters, particularly:
Frog-zombie: his one spell is disgustingly destructive. I can see putting him in a big unit of (unbreakable) TG and rushing him into combat where he can spam his weakest version of his power 4 times into close combat... that will wreck most units.
Gor'rok: For his points a solid investment... and the fact that he can make a block of saurus stubborn makes him a good replacement for a normal combat hero.
Tehenuin: I actually like him. However, I feel the right place for him is on an engine. The only weakness of the engine is that it is ridden by a crappy wizard who has to accept challenges. replace that wizard with a solid combat character and the engine becomes a much, much scarier unit.

I hate:
Tik'taq'to: a mediocre combat character on a mediocre flying mount with one attack (but it has killing blow!!!11!) costs how much?

I think the magic items get a lot of hate, but I like what they got. Particularly the War drums I think will eventually show to be one of the more powerful items.

I like the book overall, but I actually dislike how good the EotG is. I think its a unit that is so versatile it will show up in every lizard list. If a lizard player is going with no magic, they put a priest on it, lvl 2, with a diadem of power and a dispel scroll. now you have 7 dispel dice and a scroll, plus your choice of two useful un-stoppable magic powers... one of which can protect you from some of your enemies offensive magic. Oh, and its mounted on a terror causing, impact hit dealing, ginormous dinosaur.

Leogun_91
23-01-2009, 06:06
Except for TekkoEkko (stupid irresistable on all doubles in the lore of heavens) I see the list as pretty balanced and I also think it settled alot of issues from the old book, not alot of No-brainers anymore.

Nicha11
23-01-2009, 06:11
Except for TekkoEkko (stupid irresistable on all doubles in the lore of heavens).

Lol he is over 250pts and only does the irresistable thing once per battle for a turn on 3+ hardly overpowered.

blackjack
23-01-2009, 06:22
I have read the book extensively but do not own it.

I have played about 6 games with the new rules with a limited number of variant armies.

I have not yet tested the Engine of the gods in any list I have run.

I am a gamer, mostly interested in playing over painting, collecting and fluff. (though the fact lizards are easy to paint is a big plus in my book)

So the following review is from a power perspective and is base on my limited experiance as described above.




The only thing to get an unqualified boost are the Saurus Infantry and the Coldones. Everything else is a mixed bag.

Saurus got 1pt cheaper and +1AS, spears got 1pt cheaper as well and the second rank of spear saurus now get 2 attacks. Spear saurus may be the best core rank and file point for point infantry in the game now, unfortunatly, much like WOC, the rest of the army book provides them with no effetive long ranged support. Without ranged support there is no reason for faster armies to approach and engage your blocks. Enemy armies of fliers, cav or skirmish shooters will just avoid your blocks and slaughter the rest of your army.

Razordons have +1str, but 50% the hits of the old Salamanders, 3/4 the range, cost 10pts more but have a great stand and shoot ability. Over all a nerf.

The new Salamanders are so diffrent from the old ones that math hammer can't really compare them. The new Salies are basicly move and shoot warp fire throwers, also cost +10 pts over the old ones.

Scar vets got +1T at the same point cost but lost the ability to take spawnings, losing tepok means you will have to burn a few hero slots on skink priests for Magic defence now.

Slann got alot cheaper but lost generations. Slann may be one of the best point for point mages in Warhammer now but because Skink priests can only take lore of heavens the Slann has to basicly shoulder the entire (offensive) magic phase on its own. Having only one caster with access to something other than heavens makes it quite easy for your opponent to shut the Slann down. In order to get a reliable magic phase you need the ability to cast the same spell more than once, Lizards by and large can't do that.

Teradons got a load of extra abilities and got cheaper but instead of 3 str 4 attacks they now get a single str 3 and a single str 4 attack. Meaning they lost the ability to effecively charge troops.

Stegs became spechial but they got no improvments and they were over pointed in the old book as well.

Engine of the gods may be an interesting choice but the point cost is largly prohibitive. A EOTG and Skink priest comes to 400+ points and you only have to kill a 2 wound, T2, 2+Armor Save skink to remove all of its magical effects.

Krox were nerfed with -1str. People state this makes them the same cost/effectivness as ogres in other books and we all know how powerfull orgres are...

Cold ones got a +1AS but were near bottom as point for point effective heavy cav and the +1as does not do enough to improve them.

Skinks lost thier ability to scout. +1pt for +1 ld is fair but without scout thier short range weapons really limit them.

Jag charm has become a more expensive bound item (nerf).

All the special characters are over priced for what they do. (here they don't even match WOC who can at least make decent lists if they dip into the spechial chars)

This would be a great balanced book if it were not for the fact that Dark elves, Vampires, Daemons all got huge power boosts.

Basicly you get few good synergies in this book. You have a fantastic Slann caster who gets next to nothing from his Skink priest flunkies.

You get some awsome Saruus infantry, desperatly looking for some #$%#$% fire support *(god forbid you take a few DOW cannon for this role)*.

If you plan to play for fun, great, but if you play in a competitive non comped environment the book is disapointing

-Grimgorironhide-
23-01-2009, 07:49
This is my own personnal review of the lizzies. (The army list, not the whole book)

First-Special Characters.

I was quite disappointed that Nakai wasn't present which seems like a pretty stupid thing since he is quite a favourable characters. The two slanns who are supposed to be the highest in their power are pretty subpar. Kroak for instance got a huge nerf from being such a respected power on the field to a slightly stronger slann who only has one spell. Maz is also quite subpar since he is supposed to be the most powerful 2nd gen. IMO Kroak should get a whole lore in addition to his spell, the +1 PD per cast discipline, His ceremonial mace back, a +2 to cast and dispel and cost around 800pts.
Maz should be immune to miscasts, +2 to cast and dispel, T 5, W 6 and cost around 700pts.

Tehenauin is also subpar to how he should be. IMO he should be how he is in the lustria book.
Kroq-gar I have yet to tryout but I think he is around 30-50pts over priced.
Oxtoyl, Gor-rok and chakax and tekko,getto(?) I think are quite nice and well done characters.
Tik,tak,to I believe is to expensive for what he can do and should be around the 250pt range. (I really hate the lame name.)

Next-Characters

Firstly the slann. In my opinion GW went to far with simplifing the slann. He just doesn feel like the supreme caster he should be. Losing the +1 to cast/dispel, the freedom of spell selection and the immunity to miscasts
really took away alot of the slanns character. Now he just feels like a normal wizard, much more powerful of course but still not the unique character he should be. Disciplines are quite nice and a decent replacement for generations but I think they should of had a few more choices to choose from.

The Oldblood is just the same as he always was. Great character, strong, resilient and a great general. The improvements to the carnie are also good but the carnie losing large target really doesn't make any sense.

Skink Priests are still stuck with only the heaven lore but they can really boost your magic phase with the engine of the gods. They are now needed with the lose of the Tepok mark to give magic defense.

Skink chiefs have seen a decent improvement with improved Bs and Ld. They are a pretty good choice now so I am happy with them.

Scar-vets are IMO the lizzies best hero choice for point value. With his improved Toughness he can even take on Lord characters. Very nice.

Next Core.

Saurus warriors have seen a nice boost which has put them back in the game.
With a 1 pt decrease, loss of predatory fighter, spears 1pt and +1 save increase they are definately more useful than before.

Skinks

-Cohorts are IMO 1pt over priced. There best uses are for flanker chargers at 10 man units and also to fill out min core. They should be Ws 3 for that would make them more viable.

-Skirmishers got a pt increase but it was bound to happen. They are still as useful as they always were but the loss of the scout upgrade is a bit of a disappointment.

-Krox/skinks are not so good because of the handicap of not being able to manouvour normally, which I think is a pointless add on in their rules. They are just not worth their points because of this handicap so I am pretty disappointed with it.

Jungle swarms are still useless. They should have had a 30pt decease to make them at least fesible but once again GW screw up.

Next Special.

Kroxigors have been hit quite hard with the nerf stick with the loss of str 7 and more importantly the skink screen. They lost alot of their viablity and uniqueness with this hit and now they just look like overpriced ogres with GW's.

Saurus cav are still not at what they should be. The improved armour was needed but they should have also been reduced to around 30 or so points.
They are not bad but not great either.

Charmeleon skinks are another unit who lost their uniqueness. The loss of there super scout ability was a stupid change aince they were already overpriced before. The only reason they are more useful now is that they are now the lizzies only scouts so they may see some more play. Still should have kept their super scouting though.

Terradon riders are a bit weaker than before. They gained a rock throw and a 5pt decrease but with the profiles seperated and a weaker hit and run they are much more fragile than they used to be.

Temple Guard are now at the power they should be. They are a rock hard unit and have quite good hitting power. All in all a soild choice.

The steg has seen little changes which is a bit of a disappointment. They have moved to special but they are still very pricey. IMO he should cost aroung the 200-220pt range but he can still do his job on the field.


Next Rare.

Sallies are now mobile flame cannons. They were nerfed but they did need it.
I like their changes so I think they are still pretty good.

Razordons are basically what sallies used to be. They are a decent unit but I wish they were more different to the sally.

The ancient steg like the steg is not that great. When he charges he hits like a ton of bricks but with only 3 attacks he has to make sure he can break the unit in the turn he charges. I believe he should be around 260pts and have 4 attacks. He is still a usable choice though.

Finally Magic items.

Weapons are more or less the same as in 6th ed. I think they could have done a better job for some are still a bit over priced (i.e the blade of trunzi)
Section rating: 5/10

Armour is also basically the same as 6th ed. The lack of variety is annoying and most of them are not that great (i.e steg helm is a bit to expensive for what it does)
Section rating: 4/10

Talismans are also quite lacking in choice which is stupid since lizzies should have the best magic items. With the change of the aura of Queztl they have no 4+ ward item.
Section rating: 3/10

Enchanted is the section which has a nice variety of items to choose from. Unfortunetly a few of them are still useless (i.e the quickfly silver, the horn of Kygor).
Section rating: 6/10

Arcane may look like they are more filled but its only because some of the old plaques have been added. The one item that stands out though is the cupped hands which can bounce a miscast which will be a must IMO for the slann with their loss of immunity.
Section rating: 6/10

Banners are pretty decent. Not to great not to bad.
Section rating: 6.5/10


My Conclusion

I feel that the 7th lizard book is more of a side way change than an improvement. Somethings got better (Saurus, skink chiefs, Temple guard, cheaper slann, scar-vet) while other things got worse (Kroxigors, terradon riders, Carmeleon skinks, loss of spawnlings) and other things basically stayed the same (Still poor magic items, saurus cav, stegs, skinks will still rule the core section)
I believe that the book could have been done much better.
Things that i think should have been in:
-A lore of the old ones
-Horned one cav
-Slann, Kroak and Maz able to get spells from multiple lores
-Spawnlings improved instead of dumped.
-Nakai
-More Magic items.

So all in all I rate the 7th ed Lizard book a 4/10.
I just hope skaven are done better.

cheers.

nagash42
23-01-2009, 08:25
what sucks is they finally make just a nice normal book no real power creep or anything and now no one likes it.

I played them a little in 5th so I won't miss alot of that stuff mentioned cause they didn't have it back then they're making them alot more how they were like in 5th.

FatOlaf
23-01-2009, 09:39
On one hand I'm very disapointed by what I've heard and seen of the new book.
With one hand they have given and then they have taken away with the other. I understand some changes, Krox S7, Sallies auto hit, But why give Terries a great new ability and then take away hit and run, and it's attacks, where they that borken before?
And why only srop rocks once per game? Cant they pick more up?
But on the other hand, I'm glad we're not a Deamon / DE book as all the WAAV players wont jump on the LM bandwagon, sure a few will try out the monster mash lists, which will be great for GW's bank balance but when they then find out it's not an auto win army, they will leave, leaving us the true LM players to have fun with our big Dino's...

Leogun_91
23-01-2009, 09:47
Lol he is over 250pts and only does the irresistable thing once per battle for a turn on 3+ hardly overpowered. It doesnīt say once per battle and itīs 3+ on two D6, it also doesnīt only affect him.

Duke Georgal
23-01-2009, 09:52
I was really hoping for improved leadership across the board. Cold blooded should be just shy of unbreakable. When lizardmen lose combat they break way too easily with leadership as it is.

I am glad for less power creep.

slasher
23-01-2009, 10:31
Well they could have prof read the book before sending it to the printers. I spend 5 mins looking at a preview copy and found several spelling error and (my favourite mess up of all time) a comment to tell me look on page XXX for a units special rules.

Nicha11
23-01-2009, 10:36
It doesnīt say once per battle and itīs 3+ on two D6, it also doesnīt only affect him.


I have the book in front of me, it's once per battle.

Also Slann aren't going to be using heavens so it won't be super over powered.

Balgor
23-01-2009, 11:39
Well, as this is my first time getting into Lizard men (the models made me collect them) I cant really comment on how stuff compares to the old book.

But I must say I like the book, I have played a few games using the local stores army that they have been painting and so far have about a 50/50 win rate with them which is not so bad.

My only big problem at the present is not being able to make a 2000 point army list, I just cant get in what I want :( though when I get my own book im sure this will change.

Overall I think its going to be a nice book, that can have some very viable armys (I love my hero with 4 str 5 attacks with -4sv and 1str 5 attack -2 sv) from it but wont be classed as too overpowered.

Leogun_91
23-01-2009, 11:57
I have the book in front of me, it's once per battle.

Also Slann aren't going to be using heavens so it won't be super over powered. If you play with TekkoEkko they probobly will, I mean nothing says they canīt use lore of heavens and such a boost makes it worth it (just as the +2 to cast lore of life often makes the fay enchantress use lore of life instead of a less avaiable lore).

Nerhesi
23-01-2009, 13:51
Their Magic sucks - just like everyone else minus demons and VC.

Reason being waaay too expensive for something that is easily stopped.

500+ points for a caster that is non-existent in close-combat (unlike VC/DoC/Chaos Sorc Lords, Greater Demons, some heralds..) and cannot pick machine gun spells anymore.

They have GREAT anti-magic! The banner of stupid wizards.. the 6s to cast on enemy target wizards don't count... etc etc...

But really..275 point slann + 100 points in gear + 150 in plaques/gifts/whatever... for a guy who not much better than a chaos sorceror lord?

The Magic phase is dead and now fully decomposing - unless you have danse... or a lore with 4 nuking spells out of 6.. (wtf?!)

On the flip side...

Only time will tell how good/bad a heavy melee lizardman army is. s5/t5 heroes is awesome. Cold blooded is as great as always. skink/kroxigors seem like a nice upgrade...

==Me==
23-01-2009, 14:12
I'm a huge fan of the Slaan and new Temple Guard, can you build an army around a block of these fellows and compete?

Or would an Oldblood on a T-Rex be a better pick?

W0lf
23-01-2009, 14:21
But really..275 point slann + 100 points in gear + 150 in plaques/gifts/whatever... for a guy who not much better than a chaos sorceror lord?

Slaan
BSB, +1 dice per spell.
300 pts

Not much better then a sorc lord? Im dying to know how/why?

Malorian
23-01-2009, 14:38
My only big problem at the present is not being able to make a 2000 point army list, I just cant get in what I want :( though when I get my own book im sure this will change.

This has always been the case. To make the blocks effective you need them to be a certain size and then you don't have the points for support units. I've always found that 3K is were my lizardmen really excel because at that point I have just the right amount of magic, blocks, shooting, and support units.

I think the new book is fantastic. A lot of things got better for free (scarvets, saurus, saurus cav, slann) while a lot of the other things that changed just... changed (terradons, salamanders, krox). They aren't any better or worse, they are just different.

Not being able to take tepok anymore means that you can't go all combat, but as was said before you can now take the EotG and suddenly you have all the magic defense you need.

I think right now there is a lot of lizardmen hate because the old tricks won't work. (Oh no, I can't do my kroak/scouting skink swarm) but once people get more games in with them the new tactics will come out and people will settle down.

Some new tactics that I thing will be valid are MSU saurus (forget the spear blocks, take them as plain blocks of 10), terradons acting as flank protection (now that they can fly through woods you can sit them there unit something squishy comes by and fly over them and drop your rocks), offensive temple guard (gone are the ways of sit back while the gatling slann fires, now you should get in there, fight, and let your slann and EotG do it's dirty work from point blank), and finally skink redirecters (now that they aren't skirmishing you can take a cheap block of 10 and be able to dictate where the chargers will go when they kill them).

In fact the things that can be seen as getting worse probably deserved it as everyone thought they should be changed before.

When I go over the changes with my group they are actually worried about how they are going to deal with it, so it's very interesting to see the exact opposite here.


Edit: WOlf is exactly right. That is pretty much the new standard slann.

Bac5665
23-01-2009, 14:45
I am happy with the new book and think its an improvement, but it has quite a few problems.

I don't care about the SCs, as I still think they shoudn't exist so I won't comment on them.

Other characters seem better and the choices seem more competative. Slaan went sideways for seemingly no reason other than to be different, and that's fine for the most part. They are less powerful overall, but maybe more survivable and cheaper, which always helps.

The core choices are better. Saurus are just better and GW did this part right. Infact, I would say that the handling of saurus of all kinds is the highlight of the book. It may be the only part GW got "right," but it was the most important part to get right. Ranked skinks are fine. They may be useless, I'm not sure, but they should be included for completeness sake. The inevitable and uneccisary point increase for skinks was made reasonable with the Ld increase.

The special choices are just confusing. TG got better as part of being saurus, but are special now, counteracting the goal of people taking less core skinks. Kroxigor are just dissapointing. There's nothing wrong with them, except maybe being overpriced, though its hard to tell without having played with them yet, but they lost everything about them that was unique. They were balanced, and may still be balanced, but they are just not "fun" anymore, and with the competition for special choices being so tight, expect to see alot fewer Krox.

Terridons. These got worse, and I don't understand why. the drop rocks rule is so situational, and with its one use only limitation its even more so, that its hard to measure its impact. Otherwise, they got more maneuverable, but they hit less hard in CC, losing an attack, and a strength for another attack. I would have given the terridon itself 2 attacks, and given the stinks spears. That would have let them hit just as hard and still separate the profiles, which seems to have been the goal.

Chameleon skinks got worse somehow, which frightens me, as they were one of the worst units in the game before.

Saurus cav got better, any may be useful, but its hard to see how they are 5 points apiece better than Dragon princes.

Stegadons. Ah stegadons. They were not worth it in 6th. They got worse in 7th, and yet everyone is planning on buying 6 of them and useing them every game. Its madness. Stegadons' have very little hitting power after the charge. And now its easier to win combat against them by killing the skinks off the top. They got +1Ld to make them care less about losing combat, but now they will lose more often, and they lost plenty before. I just don't see how GW could possibly have thought that stegadons were fixed gameplay wise by any of the changes in the book. They really must think that people will use whatever model they make shiny enough.

The Rare choices are weird. Ancient stegadons hit harder on the charge, but with less staying power, and have a better ranged attack, all for 50 points more. I don't get it.

The hunting packs are weird too. GW nurfed sallies by changing the way they worked entirely and making them better. What? Then they reintroduced the old sallies with a new name and model and made them just as good as the current sallies, if not better. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they didn't nurf sallies, since they did not need it, it was just that stegs were too weak, but they really made them much more powerful, which I think no one was expecting.

The magic items are a joke. Look at the cool new toys that the last 5 books have gotten, and they look at the LM items. Our list is actually worse than it was. I don't even know how that's possible, but it is. Again, they confuse popular for broken and nurf the popular items. The problem was not that the items everyone took were too powerful, the problem was that everything else was useless. Related to this, it seems that "one use only" is the lizardmen special rule. Almost everything worth taking is ruined, or severely damaged by this rule.

The army design team seemed to realize, correctly, that everything that's popular is either broken, or is surrounded by sub-par options. Then they completely misunderstood which is which. The things that were broken were not handled. They were made more powerful. Fortunately these things were few and far between. On the other hand, lots of things that were only used because the other options sucked were themselves nurfed. (Krox, magic items, for example.) Then, for good measure, they missunderstood the things that were sub-par and, instead of fixing them, changed them laterally. Stegadons are the biggest victim of this. They got saurus right, and that is enough to save the book, and make it overall an improvement, but almost everything else could have been done better. Its not worse. I want to be clear o that. And a Slaan/TG/saurus block army got alot better. But the support units all got worse, and thats worrying.

Kadrium
23-01-2009, 16:20
Man there's a lot of crybabying going on in here.

Gabacho Mk.II
23-01-2009, 16:32
All the special characters are over priced for what they do. (here they don't even match WOC who can at least make decent lists if they dip into the spechial chars)

This would be a great balanced book if it were not for the fact that Dark elves, Vampires, Daemons all got huge power boosts.

Basicly you get few good synergies in this book. You have a fantastic Slann caster who gets next to nothing from his Skink priest flunkies.

You get some awsome Saruus infantry, desperatly looking for some #$%#$% fire support *(god forbid you take a few DOW cannon for this role)*.

If you plan to play for fun, great, but if you play in a competitive non comped environment the book is disapointing



Pretty much the highlights of the new armylist.


I just cannot see how anyone can give this armylist a rating higher than 7 out of 10.

Andrew Luke
23-01-2009, 16:41
The list rocks. All of the blocks got better. Some very interesting magic items and spell/lore combos that take some serious planning to pull off but have potentially game winning results. This list 'plays warhammer' and if Daemons and VC were just an outlier and the rest of 7th Ed. turns out like LM I will be very happy.

Gabacho Mk.II
23-01-2009, 16:45
The list rocks. All of the blocks got better. Some very interesting magic items and spell/lore combos that take some serious planning to pull off but have potentially game winning results. This list 'plays warhammer' and if Daemons and VC were just an outlier and the rest of 7th Ed. turns out like LM I will be very happy.


You might be onto something... IF the remaning armies (Skaven, BoC, Bretonnians etc) turn out like the current 7th ed Lizardmen, then we might have more stability and balance in the game. However, how probable is that??? [given GW's fondness for power creep and ill-restraint in the redisgning of armies]

With Skaven being redone by Alessio (unless I am mistaken here), who would like to bet that Skaven will not overtake Daemons in the "damn this army is tough!" category?

Dead Man Walking
23-01-2009, 16:46
The Slaan on the stegadon is gonna kick butt, espeacially in my army which is all kroxigor, skinks, sallies and stegadons. Now that Tepok is gone my dispel dice would suck, but heres a ldr9 stubborn guy with 2+ 2+ 3+inv that can keep up with my fast moving army and cast unseen lurker to pulverize with charges. Good for me.

Nightsword
23-01-2009, 16:50
I just cannot see how anyone can give this armylist a rating higher than 7 out of 10.

I give it an 8.

It's a balanced book, with some strong builds, some strong magic items, one of the best core units in the game, some of the most beautiful models in the entire GW range, the background is interesting, the playstyle is interesting, it's a tactical army full of a variety of troop choices. It's everything WOC should have been and more. And I'm a chaos player.

I'll post my opinions later.

decker_cky
23-01-2009, 17:03
As someone who was never interested in lizardmen before, I think the list got much better.

The slann is better than before because he isn't as vulnerable and he costs much less for being nearly as dominant in the magic phase. I think the miscast protection needs to be added to the standard build. The slann will also have exactly the spells he wants now, rather than having to roll over several lores which had the potential to have a few misses.

I agree that EoTG isn't great for a defencive build, but taking it along with a slann is a good idea (so long as there's a little points flexibility like in 2250).

How did stegadons get worse? They got better leadership (which translates to them being much more dependable in break tests). They got poisoned bows which makes them surprisingly good at shooting monsters, and can position themselves to get those shots off unlike most artillery. But yes...they're still a support unit (including the fire support that seems to be left out).

Skink skirmishers can't scout, but are still M6 skirmishers with good close ranged shooting, along with all the other harassing skirmishers tend to do.

Terradon riders provide auto hitting fire support, which will strip a rank or two off of anything they hit. After that, they have a number of rolls they can fill, least of which is providing crossfire while harassing. I think for the most part, terradons got an improvement (aside from models).

You knew salamanders wouldn't stay the same, and razordons are still a good deal. The new salamanders are very handy in the current metagame. Both are much less prone to panic, and have the important rule that makes them fight rather than just going corner to corner with skinks across the front rank.

Temple guard got cheap enough that you can afford a bodyguard for the slann. They also god ItP, which is pretty much a 75 pt improvement over the solution you needed before.

There's also the non-large target, S7, D3 wounds against everything carnosaur. All I can say to that is wow.

And you can still have an easy magic defence with the stupid banner (which hits vampires and daemons quite hard) and a skink priest with the diadem and a scroll.

Like most other armies, this lost the obvious combos from the last edition, but has gained others. Like the mortal list (which, given the recent tournament results, the other posters in this thread underestimate), give it some time and I'm sure it'll be a contender.

DeathlessDraich
23-01-2009, 17:09
1) I havent seen the book but I'm always interested as usual since I do play Lizards sometimes.

2) New army books has never been a question of pts cost or making units stronger or weaker - these are the *least* interesting changes as far as I'm comcerned.
I'm more interested in new abilities, new units and from what I've read here, these features are worse than WOC where the main ability change was centred around the ineffective EOTG.
I hope I'm wrong and there will be sufficient compensation in the magic item section for *more* innovative and novel game play

2)@Anyone complaining that the army is too weak. Based on the sources here, I can already think of some Very Very strong army lists.

RossS
23-01-2009, 17:25
I'm happy that the consensus seems to be that the Lizardmen book is a restrained and balanced book. Hopefully, GW has learned from its previous errors.

Unfortunately, we will all have to continue suffering through the Demons, (most) VC lists and the two uber elven lists.

W0lf
23-01-2009, 17:59
Id say the book is slightly more powerful then before and pretty balanced which is a big plus.

Id also say infantry were made better which is always good and the list is more varied.

TBH the list looks far better then the old book which put me off Lizards. Every lizzie army in 6th looked the same.

decker_cky
23-01-2009, 18:06
TBH the list looks far better then the old book which put me off Lizards. Every lizzie army in 6th looked the same.

Agreed. The fact that you look at the list and go "Man...having a bunch of spear saurus in my list would be awesome" says loads about the list.

By the way...I think the plastic stegadon kit is one of the most useful ones GW has released in quite a while, and that's saying a lot. It has the load-out for the three stegs which look nice, and includes a skink priest and a skink chieftan with various armaments. The stegadon is a pretty useful unit, and you get free plastic hero models in the kit. That's pretty nifty.

blackjack
23-01-2009, 18:12
There's also the non-large target, S7, D3 wounds against everything carnosaur. All I can say to that is wow.

And you can still have an easy magic defence with the stupid banner (which hits vampires and daemons quite hard)

4 attacks as WS 3, this is all you need to know, the 35pt cheaper Hydra is massively better. Even give the Carni the charge and the Hydra beats it hands down. The carni is slow, low attacks and embarassingly low WS.


Stupid Banner, against vamps? LD10/9 vamps? My main VC opponent puts the stupid had on his general in any case and kicks ass with his list. Also keep in mind it is only 18', so for the first 2 turns you are going to be sucking it down.


remove all 6's from one mage within 24' for 50pts? Yea that really competes with a 25pt ring of hotek or a 35pt infernal puppet....

W0lf
23-01-2009, 18:21
Thats far better then puppet for magic defence... Puppet dosnt work till they miscast, hardly need the defence when they havnt even cast, do you?

decker_cky
23-01-2009, 18:29
Thralls are Ld7, any daemonic hero (or most any hero level caster) is Ld 8. Most any other L2 caster is Ld 7 or 8, and so are many wizard lords.

Now what does this do? Against Ld7, there's abouta 40% chance of failure. Against Ld8, it's about 25%. Even against Ld9, it works 1/6 times. This not only removes those casters from casting, but takes their units out of the equation for a turn as well. If you've ever seen someone try to run orc and goblin mages in units with animosity, you'll have seen how disruptive to the magic phase this banner can be.

Ring of Hotek is amazing. No doubting that. Infernal puppet is only really a magic defence when you add the black tongue, which is 50 pts and will either cost you half VPs on a hero, or will drop your lord caster down to 2 wounds. I think as a general magic defence, the banner is better. It means that usually, having a single caddy with the diadem should be enough magic defence.

And the carni has an oldblood on it, and what that means is that against most any unit, you can almost always get +6 CR in a challenge. WS3 and WS4 aren't really that different. They're both below average nowadays, and in general just mean that you're hitting on a 4+. Once again, you only compare it to the absolute best bargains in the game. And the charge doesn't really matter too much in a carni vs hydra, though I think the carni has a much better chance to kill the hydra outright in a single round.

Remove all 6's is the magic defence I'd take if I had a slann. It's a big drop in effectiveness for any magic phase. 1 die invospam only works half of the time. The average roll of each die will be 2.5 instead of 3.5. That means each power die is over 25% less effective. Irresistible Force is negated. And this works against every magic die available. I think this is pretty much equal to the ring of hotek in terms of magic defence.

But seriously...you can't compare every aspect of an army to the things that are head and shoulder above everything else. Someone has to have the best deal, and it doesn't always have to be the newest army. There'll be very strong builds with lizardmen that compete well in tournaments. Heck, the old book was still competitive, and this one is stronger.

EvC
23-01-2009, 18:36
I quite like the book, the background is really good, the rules are mostly decent. The army has a different "feel" to it, much like how 7th edition changed Vampire Counts and Warriors a fair bit, but without making it seem like empty, gamey changes.

The only complaint is how good the Engine of the Gods is. It's clearly only that good to convince all players to buy a new (And more like two...) Stegadon, much like how the Hydra was deliberately underpriced. After all, the Engine of the Gods, is the only type of Stegadon that can't easily be represented by the old kit, which many Lizardmen stalwarts will have one of, so they gotta buy a new one.

But in general, like the army.

Drayken
23-01-2009, 19:05
Oh well, it's not so bad. GW could have done much worse, but I was expecting a little more from them after what happened to VC, Demons and WOC. I'm just disappointed the chameleons, krox and sallies aren't as good as they used to be. Same with the terradons. But saurus, TG and slann seem pretty good. Gw could have added a bit more new stuff though, like lizard lore, keep spawnings, put new magic objects instead of nerfing the only ones we used. Special characters doesn't seem that bad, too bad nakai isn't there.

The new book will change things a bit for lizardmen players, but not much.

maze ironheart
23-01-2009, 19:15
I am VERY PLEASED with the book it's AWSOME now to dust of my lizardmen models.

guillaume
23-01-2009, 19:21
Having played LM since their second coming in 2004, I am pleased with the new book.

There are enough changes to each units to make them play differently, BUT the new book doesn't make any old unit unusable.

and THAT to me was the most important point.

The new LM are organised differently to the current ones, and units will play differently, but player's collection will not change that much.

For e.g when warhammer 7th edition came out, LM swarms became unusable overnight. Now that the swarms are cheaper, I will use them more often.

Tiktakto...so much fun for a name...rule wise...very interesting set of rules, but not efficient.

I am looking for making my own tiktakto with the new skink chief rule on a terradon. Basically, a 150ptsish skink chief on a terradon with shield, LA, and magical weapon...and VOILA, a 1/2 price tiktakto....

Overall, very pleased.

Frankly
23-01-2009, 19:50
Being a fan of skinks and Southlands, I'm hugely happy that my skinks can rank up into units.

The book its self: saurus units look like a smart buy, nice support, some great fluff, a flexible list.

Over all I think they've done a good job.


Things I'm going to watch out for:

I'm waiting to see if steggie lists will have a same effect on the game as carnie lists in 40k.

If salamanders are more broken/how well they work supporting saurus units.

If Slaans are going to be as potent a spell caster as they were in the last book.

Drayken
23-01-2009, 19:56
Something tells me we're soon going to get a lot of complaints for the Razordons, especially with their stand and shoot ability with 2 artillery dice! :D

Kadrium
23-01-2009, 20:12
Most people complaining seem to be upset that the army cannot do everything at once while being competitive with DoC.

Neckutter
23-01-2009, 20:40
saurus spear infantry are the best point for point unit in the game now. and they are CORE. shooting fire support? well you got magic, or salamander/razordons. still not happy? then you got bolt throwers on mobile firing terror-causing platforms. still not happy? you got T5/S5 heros. still not happy? play daemons.


i play LM, and it seems they got some serious boosts where they need it. they are extremely viable with the old book, and the new book is just better. as far as the army list sounds, i would give it an 8. it will probably be just as powerful as VC/DE/WE.

E101beta
23-01-2009, 21:57
saurus spear infantry are the best point for point unit in the game now. and they are CORE. shooting fire support? well you got magic, or salamander/razordons. still not happy? then you got bolt throwers on mobile firing terror-causing platforms. still not happy? you got T5/S5 heros. still not happy? play daemons.

Lol :p

Anyways, The Skink Screen is basically designed to protect the Sarurus' and any Lizardmen General worth his salt won't just march his Expensive but deadly unit through the open to die by missile fire. This just makes the guarded unit more powerful.

Malorian
23-01-2009, 22:02
Razordones are going to be great flank protecters. No fast cav will dare to charge them so the razordons can just move along as they please on the enemy's flanks and shoot away.

Hell, even if the enemy shoots them they will just lose some useless handlers.

decker_cky
23-01-2009, 22:07
I think I still prefer salamanders. Auto panic for a flank protector is huge, and they give the army the flaming attacks that are so important these days.

Do they cause D3 wounds as well? If so, they'll be pretty handy against hydras (not that having the template you can drop on the handlers doesn't make them handy regardless).

Dead Man Walking
23-01-2009, 22:20
I've tried out both the Razzys and the sallies and Sallies are far far better, the flame templates just absolutely devestate infantry, calvary, skirmishers.... everything but single target mobs.

Quetzl
23-01-2009, 22:25
Sounding good to me, seems like the Lizards are going to be something new to play against with all those Steggies! I'm glad that the power creep has been stalled, I hope that the Lizzies are about as powerful as the WoC and they aren't downgraded in power instead. It seemed that the Warriors were quite a step down from the Dark Elves, hopefully they'll be flattening it out from here forward. We shall see :D

Hrogoff the Destructor
23-01-2009, 22:28
From what I've seen and heard about the lizzies new book, I think it's great. I honestly think that this army is unarguably going to be one of the most enjoyable armies to play. I would have killed for my WoC book to be remotely this interesting.

Yeah, it's not DoC, but it's still damn good and powerful.

kramplarv
23-01-2009, 23:54
I dont get this one small thing...

1: We have a decent armybook. ie, 6th ed Lizardmen.
2: We have people crying out that GW only power creeps and wants all new books to be badasses to sell models.
3: A new lizardbook comes out. It is a decent book, it gives and it takes.
4: "Same" people crying "poooweer creeeep is baaad, GW sucks" are now complaining that LM aint got that "improvement" other books got.

WTeff?? I don't get it. The 7th lizardbook are a decent book, probably more flexible in the army creation than before since the slaan were somewhat toned down and the oldblood slightly more powerful (no LT on dinosaur..) making the lord choice not 100% obvious. Now the army has several options. Like, an old blood general?

W0lf
24-01-2009, 00:06
yep but power creep is a whole lot of crap anyway.

WoC + Lizzards are both fine. And one of them isnt boring-linear to play :D

kramplarv
24-01-2009, 01:58
yeah, true. believing in power creep is like believing in GW Bush is a communist. :)
The lizardmen book seems very nice and balanced indeed, so are the WoC. Most of the time.

I really like the carnosaur :D that stupid frog is so annoying. Gimme some dinosaurs! Big meat eating t-rexes on steroids! :D

TheMav80
24-01-2009, 01:59
Going just from the rumors, it doesn't really seem like my army is going to change that much at all. I've already got 55 Saurus Warriors, and 20 of them have spears (and are marked with yellow crests for Tlazcotl, but thats okay).

Oddly enough, the thing I need more of is Skinks! I don't have enough to rank up in a couple decent sized units.

So it looks like GW will be getting me to buy one box of Skinks, 2 Stegadons (I already have one old one), at least one box of Temple Guard (I have 15 of the old ones), and the new Kroxigors because I think the last two models have been crap.

StarFyreXXX
24-01-2009, 03:23
My review from reading the book over 3 times, and playing 3 games with it vs high elves (850 pts), Daemons (2000 pts), Wood Elves (today, 2000 pts).

* fluff - pretty good, they mention a couple of our special chars that did not have rules (Nakai, Ten Zlati) which was nice at least and they expanded on the battle of itza a bit. Some annoying stuff here in the art (some cool stuff that would have been good and brought us up to part with most other armies..stuff like the Couatl being in the main art pic with a skink priest riding it, but we don't get it as a flying mount.that really annoys me!!!)

* art - great in the book except for a couple pics...

* using the army....in the 3 games..i think with better players than myself :) the army will be quite usable and fairly good. It appears they have done some changes we needed. (TG, Saurus a bit cheaper for example)...but others don't think so. (ie. krox should have been made more expensive and kept str 7..it makes more sense than them being str 4, and the fact that they being more expensive, balances that. there is no need for all similar units to have same stats....might as well only have 1 army if the game turns into that).

Slann- love the changes. making them weaker i think was good, considering bloodthirsters got less wounds now, and the addition of kholek at 8 wounds.slann should be inthe middle. the disciplines are good but i think the same disciplines will be taken. +1 PD is basically needed! Then it'sa toss up for regenerate, ethereal, and that remove 6s from enemy wizards.

The army reaks of marketting...temple guard are only really good with a slann so doesn't matter much if you can now take them without it..too expesnive for what they are without a slann. Stegadons a plenty (more on this later).

Razordons, honestly, i'd rather some other stuff than this..they are different, but so similar to salamanders it doesn't feel like a different dino..

Skinks losing scouting hurts...but can be dealt with i guess. atleast u can still get blowpipes and skirmish.

Scouts+krox - don't see the pt of this. The WD article for feb states the designers remember the look of the skinks in units with krox and liked it, so they brought it back. no actual mention of gameplay reasons why to do this..or if it's really usable..oh well.

stegadons - not worth the points IMHO. ballista still not accurate enough to hit enuff and only get 6 shots max a game with it. Ancient steg i think is better but is really good with the skink chief and the lance for 2d6+1 str 6 impact hits. Note, be careful in combat as the skink characters can die easily, espec if the enemy can ignore armour saves. (they do get the AS from the howdah so sa i saw in todays game, skink priest in the engine of the gods survived a challenge by a branch wraith or whatever it called).

* magic choice...logically, skinks should have had a choice between light and heavens instead of just heavens..oh well. and lack of Our own 2 or 3 lores (lore of old ones, geomancy, maybe one more) hurts, doesn't make much sense (brb lores are what elves taught humans as it states in the BRB itself and just don't fit the type of spells the liz use (in most cases). they should have an option for them or their own. oh well. For this reason, pissing me off so much, i use kroak in games now since at least he has a good spell of his own.

* engine of the gods..used it twice. I like the concept for it...wish his range was farthe rthan 2d6 for the attaack..and i think it would have been good if for regular stegadon, we could have chosen the magical catapult thing or ballista.

* carnosaur - i love this thing. gotta try it..but the concept sounds cool. I think, like the HE book, what is more fluffy and would drive more sales (which if you follow GW stocks, knows, GW needs it)..make a weaker version as wel that can be used by heroes. I know just cause it's a cool model, people would use it in 2k with a slann, even if it's weaker in the hero version. it fits the flfuf, espec for krox gar...but i think this will happen in 8E , which is where i guess we'll get a great plastic carnosaur/lord box :) hehehe

* items - same issue as 6E..some good ones, the useless ones we never used before, a couple of them are back...a couple are very expesive and all our good ones are nerfed (aura of quetzl, something w eneeded to take on heavy combat lords like chaos or vamps, is not pretty much useless). The nerfing of them wasn't really needed (although the jaguar charm one doesn't bother me much since we can still use the same idea, but it can be dispelled)...

* the difference i find..there isn't really anything in teh book that makes me or othe rplayers i know go wow. all the other books have that (elves, Dark elves, daemons, vamps, chaos)...again, i think teh army will bebalanced and decent to use but they could have made it balanced with some more changes that players wanted.

* models...temple guard are pretty cool, but sadly they only come with 1 banner top (it comes with 2, but for some dumb reason, they are teh same).

* special chars..slann ones not that great really..regular slann u can make seem to be much better. Heroes rock but are very expensive. want to use tekko'eto myself and chakax in large games. wish his weapon acted like a nullstone on all enemy magic items instead of just weapons, but i'd prob add 75 pts to him for that....

---overall, some stuff i'd like to see in 8E

* lord kroak and maz need to be in the 700-800 pt range i think. archaon for example got cheaper and much better. maz got cheaper from his 6E WD article version and worse and ruination of cities got major nerf. doon't see how it's that useful now. AT least kroak's spell is good, but the fact that one spellbreaker can remove it and it's all he can do makes no sense.
* no nakai is pretty dumb. his GW UK rules for lustria campaign event were great..why not enhanced a bit and provided? no idea. instead we get Gor Rok who honestly, we could live without.
* 2 or 3 lores for us (we deserve it, its in teh fluff, and pretty much all other armies that should have it, have it)
* a hero version of a carnosaur
* a thunder lizard would be cool as its mentioned in fluff but oh well. no big deal..it's just cool :) heheheh
* couatl..so we could have a decent hero and/or lord level flying mount (please, if they do it, no breathe weapon, it shouldn't have one, and should be weaker than a dragon as well but have more mystical properties..a ward save, no armour save, maybe able to cast a spell like the WD trial rules version...anyways, just ideas)
* stegadons still not that great...(regular ballista one i mean)
* no spawnings really hurts army uniqueness. chaos has their marks, why not give us our spawnings? they were fluffy and fun. they just had to increase cost of a couple and enhance the rarely used ones (although i have used all and think they all were good). they will be missed and quite upset on this too..


Sanjay

FatOlaf
25-01-2009, 14:17
and finally skink redirecters (now that they aren't skirmishing you can take a cheap block of 10 and be able to dictate where the chargers will go when they kill them).


Never thought of it that way, but god yes you are right, forget about the Krox additions, this now addresses many a problem in relying on Skirmishers flee baiting, 2-3 units of 10 will work great in conjunction with MSU of 10 plain saurus....


They got saurus right, and that is enough to save the book, and make it overall an improvement, but almost everything else could have been done better. Its not worse. I want to be clear o that. And a Slaan/TG/saurus block army got alot better. But the support units all got worse, and thats worrying.

On the whole you are right, I still wish saurus could have been WS4 (my biggest gripe with them) but they are now viable. The Slann has got me excited, I have worked out a nice way of keeping him cheap yet powerful. The ability to stop IF's is amazing, and an essential upgrade IMO, others are not so good or needed, if you look carefully at the powers and what thye do and then some of the magic items, you realise you can get away with only taking 3 and keeping the costs down... Odered my 3 stegs today along with the book and more saurus ( something I would have never seen myself doing in the past), cant wait......:D



For e.g when warhammer 7th edition came out, LM swarms became unusable overnight. Now that the swarms are cheaper, I will use them more often.


Really? Even at 45 points they are not that good, especially compared to TK swarms for the same points, have you got some ideas for them (as I have 6 fricking bases gathering dust)..?


Something tells me we're soon going to get a lot of complaints for the Razordons, especially with their stand and shoot ability with 2 artillery dice! :D

Even thought they have to roll to hit?.......Dont think we'll see too many cries of 'Brooookenn'!


Most people complaining seem to be upset that the army cannot do everything at once while being competitive with DoC.

A justifiable complaint IMO, however I can see the new book giving us a chance now, with the right build....


I think I still prefer salamanders. Auto panic for a flank protector is huge, and they give the army the flaming attacks that are so important these days.

Agree and the -3AS is amazing


Do they cause D3 wounds as well?

No, that would be rather OTT, if you wanna kill hydra's, put a blade of reality on an Oldblood, will destroy them....



Yeah, it's not DoC, but it's still damn good and powerful.

Thank God it's not, I dont want anyone bitching about my lizards.....



stegadons - not worth the points IMHO. ballista still not accurate enough to hit enuff and only get 6 shots max a game with it.


Aaah But what happens if you roll a six when hitting the flank of some Chaos Knights...??? Poison attack = All dead???

Frankly
25-01-2009, 15:30
I think I still prefer salamanders. Auto panic for a flank protector is huge, and they give the army the flaming attacks that are so important these days.



Agreed.

Note:I haven't played with a razordon yet, but flaming attacks are a huge boon to any army these days.

Also salamanders have always be a pro-active/aggressive unit for me, the stand and shoot bonus on razordon's looks good, but isn't game breaking. Anyway time/testing will tell.

Mireadur
25-01-2009, 17:14
Who wrote the book?


Thanks.

Delmont
25-01-2009, 17:16
I've been running a list with 2 sets of 3 razordons to guard my flanks and they have been flat out devastating. They shoot enough shots to flat out kill most flanking units (fast cav ect) that they have faced and makes the opponent decide if he is going to just ignore flanking me, or take the bullet and charge them, getting reamed in the process. Overall I've been happy with them and can't decide if I want to keep the two units of 3 or swith them to sallies. Plus the Razordon model is sooooo much cooler.

StarFyreXXX
25-01-2009, 17:21
Sorry, yes, i forgot to mention that.

While i don't like the unoriginal idea of razordons (basically salamnders with a different shooting ability), they are devastating..just raped a unit of high elf spearmen with them...

Against any units with toughness 3 or 4 and armour worse than 2+ or 3+, they should be awesome.

Sanjay

Mireadur
25-01-2009, 17:26
The list rocks. All of the blocks got better. Some very interesting magic items and spell/lore combos that take some serious planning to pull off but have potentially game winning results. This list 'plays warhammer' and if Daemons and VC were just an outlier and the rest of 7th Ed. turns out like LM I will be very happy.

We can just hope for it...

I feel bad for the DE players (which you forgot to mention in your comment :p), they've been a lot of years enduring a clearly weak list and now the book is so off that is not even amusing to play with/agaisnt it.

Result? army shelved again for 4-5 years :wtf:

Shamfrit
25-01-2009, 17:33
In a tournament setting maybe Mireadur, there are 3 Dark Elf Players i come across ona regular basis.

Not one uses Dragons, Manticores or more than 8 Shades.

Considering how few gamers actually play in tournaments and enjoy personal groups it's surprising that such a negative stigma exists.

The Lizardmen book on the other hand got everything it deserved to balance, address and bring it into line with the 7th Edition, it can compete with Daemons, and certainly Vampires (no more lone Lord on Hellsteed, Terradons!)

Let's not make over precautious judgements just yet, and wait to see what the Skaven Book brings...and the Beasts...and those beyond that...

It's far too easy to cry wolf.

Dr. Who
25-01-2009, 18:18
Who wrote the book?


Thanks.

It is creditted to Andy Hoare.

- Dr.

Mireadur
25-01-2009, 18:44
It is creditted to Andy Hoare.

- Dr.

Personally i think Anthony did an overall good job with his books in 6th although he couldnt get away from the many cliche-abilities the previous book offered.

So far all of those ''unfun'' rules seem to have been removed. I cant wait to give it a complete reading...

decker_cky
25-01-2009, 19:17
The WD had both Anthony and Robin Cruddace (the new guy who's writing the IG codex) answering Q&As about it.

Good point on skink redirectors Malorian. They've just been recruited as the new hounds of chaos equivalent, only they're better at dying and less likely to panic. :P

Hmmm...3 units of ranked skinks, 3 units of spear saurus, 2 units of sallies and a few other hard hitters (stegs, saurus cav, whatever). Could be a VERY solid MSU build. You could probably even afford a slann in a small temple guard block at the centre.

Bac5665
25-01-2009, 19:19
I can't tell which is better, 10 RnF skinks, or 10 Skirmish skinks. I need some in my updated list, but I don't know if cheaper + redirect is better than skirmisher + blowpipes.

decker_cky
25-01-2009, 19:25
How about a mix of them? They're cheap enough that you could take 3 of one and 2 of the other without making a real dent on the army.

Bac5665
25-01-2009, 19:26
Maybe, but I don't wan to buy another box of skinks. Or do I?...:angel:

W0lf
25-01-2009, 20:13
Me and my mates were all laughing early at my 'uber deathstar' of crappy death.

I worked out i could do the following;

Slaan
Ancient stegadon with engine X2
2 Kroxigor + skinks.

set like this;

EOTGssssssEOTG
EOTGssssssEOTG
EOTGsKKKKsEOTG
EOTGssSSssEOTG

Best random unit you can muster. Its got like 4 diffrent units in one. Oh and for pure jokes the slaan had Killing blow for 25 pts.

decker_cky
25-01-2009, 20:24
Is there even an advantage to putting those all together? You can shoot whichever part you want, it's only stubborn on Ld6, so a flank on one of the EoTG stands a pretty decent chance of breaking and killing the whole thing, or if you have a killy character, you can stand a decent chance of assassinating the slann. Stegadons in units really aren't that good since they're large targets.

blackjack
25-01-2009, 20:38
The Lizardmen book on the other hand got everything it deserved to balance, address and bring it into line with the 7th Edition, it can compete with Daemons, and certainly Vampires (no more lone Lord on Hellsteed, Terradons!)


You are on drugs. New lizardmen do not have the tools to take on top 7th ed lists.

They will rank in the bottom mid tier of armies for the next several years. It is hard to place them exactly but they are definatly not in the top 3, I put them slighly below WOC for the fact they don't even get decent spechial characters.

wingedserpant
25-01-2009, 21:41
Agreed.

Note:I haven't played with a razordon yet, but flaming attacks are a huge boon to any army these days.

Also salamanders have always be a pro-active/aggressive unit for me, the stand and shoot bonus on razordon's looks good, but isn't game breaking. Anyway time/testing will tell.

I'm going to go for a unit of each. With the stand and shoot reaction they can be deployed to protect your salamanders from being charged.

Razordons can take care of fast caverly so the salamanders can start attacking large units of infantry. Of course salamanders will be the first choice but since ancient stegadons can be taken as hero choices you can easily fit them in.

Plus the models are awesome.

W0lf
25-01-2009, 22:05
My death star is crap i know... hence us laughing.


I put them slighly below WOC

As i see it, the book will be something like this;

Daemons
Vamps
DE
HE
WE
Lizardmen
Warriors

I think they will place just above warriors.

StarFyreXXX
25-01-2009, 22:35
I think they will be a good match up for warriors EXCEPT if:

the chaos player fields Archaon, and maybe even Kholek will be a problem (skinks can take him out with mass poison, yes, but that free lightning bolt he shoots will prob kill a bunch of skinks each turn most of the time or just damage units like CoR or Saurus....

Sanjay

fubukii
25-01-2009, 22:37
not a bad place to be in the power ranking, i think lm will bbe able to fight vc decently but will have trouble with daemons and certain he builds due to asf

W0lf
25-01-2009, 22:54
They should do ok against chaos imo.

All knight armies wont like stegadons or engines much and a metal slaan or oldblood carnie are both huge threats to chaos.

Cheap skirmishers will also cause chaos players havoc.

Kaikami005
26-01-2009, 02:35
I think that in general the new Lizardmen book is going to more competitive and, more importantly, far more fun to play! I've played Lizardmen since 5th edition and the return to the more combat oriented playing style that typified that edition is a welcome thing. In addition, reducing the cost of the Slann by almost 50% (mine used to costs 660pts, now it costs 350) is a HUGE boost. GW has literally given me a FREE EotG! That means:
1) I get more wounds on the table, distributed in more than one place (no more Skaven brass orb death for me!)
2) I get a second wizard who for all intents and purposes is lvl 3 (give him the plaque of tepok and he is lvl 3)
3) The Stegadon that I always used to take anyways now gets an extra d6 str 4 (str 5 against the top tier armies) no AS attacks every other turn
4)And I still get roughly the same number of power dice per turn.


True my Slann won't be able to cast an extra fireball every magic phase...I guess my lvl 3 skink will have to cast lightning, or thunderbolt, or even COMET now instead...what a shame ;).

The fact that Saurus can now use spears is, quite frankly, phenomenal. Who cares if they are only M4, to be honest I want these guys to get charged!

Not to be too brief, but the rest of the book is at least equal to what it was in 6th edition (some units better, others worse) and I felt that LM were pretty competitive to begin with.

All in all, I'd say that LM players got it pretty good this time around...:)

blackjack
26-01-2009, 02:45
The fact that Saurus can now use spears is, quite frankly, phenomenal. Who cares if they are only M4, to be honest I want these guys to get charged!


And so they will be, on the flank almost every time....

Why would anyone with superior movment choose to engadge them on the front? There is NOTHING in the entire book to force the enemy to close with you.

Kaikami005
26-01-2009, 02:58
All that you have to do to get them to charge you in the front of the spear Saurus is put a unit a Sallies (or Razordons) on one side and the EotG on the other. Move everything forward at the Saurus' march move for as long as possible. When the enemy closes, angle your Steg and Sallies accordingly to make sure they aren't flanked whilst simultaneously forcing your opponent to charge or be charged. If he charges either of these units your spear Saurus can get a flank charge in. Meanwhile use those skinks and terradons to keep his other units from marching around your "battleline".

KillbotFactory
26-01-2009, 06:09
I agree with lizardmen being now a middle tier army and that the book is quite balanced. The list looks like it has a lot more different options and I expect to see a whole wide variety of armies.

Shame to the few of you out there who are holding Demons, Hydras and the Ring of Hotek among other things as a standard of what to expect. I have yet to see any serious complaint about the effectiveness of a single unit choice. Time will give the true test but I think most everything will find a use in some form now.

Shamfrit
26-01-2009, 09:17
You are on drugs. New lizardmen do not have the tools to take on top 7th ed lists.

They will rank in the bottom mid tier of armies for the next several years. It is hard to place them exactly but they are definatly not in the top 3, I put them slighly below WOC for the fact they don't even get decent spechial characters.

Riiiiight.

Yep, I'm on drugs, take them all the time, completely loony am I? Sure. Cheers for that.

When you're argument against the relative boosts in the Lizardmen book is slightly more competant than 'spechial characters!!11' I'd be happy to debate it with you, but until then, tally ho!

:eyebrows:

slingersam
26-01-2009, 09:38
not a bad place to be in the power ranking, i think lm will bbe able to fight vc decently but will have trouble with daemons and certain he builds due to asf

I dont think ASF will matter against LM because really we only strike at I 1 so its no big deal everything will strike before use.

EDIT: I just reread my post kinda sounded like I was bagging on you, but I wasnt. Sorry If I offended.

W0lf
26-01-2009, 10:58
Why would you charge saurus spearmen?

Well chaos has too, as do beatmen, orcs and gobbos, ogres... they arnt like chaos warriors.

And lizardmen do have the tools to force the enemy forward, slaan, engines and razordons.


Im currently planning my no-sauri army just slaan and skinks. I love skinks ^^

Genrazn
26-01-2009, 11:11
I feel pity for your opponent. Opponents hate skinks :P

Mireadur
26-01-2009, 12:53
You are on drugs. New lizardmen do not have the tools to take on top 7th ed lists.

They will rank in the bottom mid tier of armies for the next several years. It is hard to place them exactly but they are definatly not in the top 3, I put them slighly below WOC for the fact they don't even get decent spechial characters.

Guys i would just forget daemons VC and DE for the next 4 years instead trying to compare every book with them.

We keep complaining they are over the top but at the same time want the new books be on their level? forget those books and pray for the newer ones to keep the very slim balance they seem to possess.

Mireadur
26-01-2009, 12:58
And so they will be, on the flank almost every time....

Why would anyone with superior movment choose to engadge them on the front? There is NOTHING in the entire book to force the enemy to close with you.

Dont be simple, LZ can very well protect their flanks, and if they do not manage to do it, then they deserve to lose that game. Oh ****! there will be strategy.

Charging spear saurus in the front with cavalry is still viable btw.

Lugburz
26-01-2009, 13:54
The Slann disipline that ignores an enemy's 6'es when casting could be fun aganst vampires and singe dice spamming :), as it would only succeed on 3, 4 and 5. With a staff of sorcery you have a good chance single dice dispell those 3 and 4's :D.

I like the new Lizardmen!

FatOlaf
26-01-2009, 17:23
The Slann disipline that ignores an enemy's 6'es when casting could be fun aganst vampires and singe dice spamming :), as it would only succeed on 3, 4 and 5.


Never thought of that (and I am a VC player) and if they dont have the skull staff, it only works on 4's and 5's. A great power becomes even better....:evilgrin:

Veloxnex
26-01-2009, 20:08
The WD had both Anthony and Robin Cruddace (the new guy who's writing the IG codex) answering Q&As about it..

Yup, My pre-release copy is signed by both :)

Socialist
29-01-2009, 00:04
I rather enjoy the ld increase in the skinks (6 instead of 5 with the chief at 7...sacred stegadon helm here I come)! The price reduction on the saurus is good and I might actually give 'em spears this time. And the skink/kroxi combo I like, but the kroxi's loss in str and skink screen confuse me. That str7 helped allot when fightng chariot heavy armies such as orcs.

I'm really going to miss my lovable scouts, which really hurts the effectiveness of any range ability LM once had. Plus it doesn't make sense given the 2 giant blowguns on the howdah. And now that skirmishers are up a point and it's additional point to give 'em javelins and shields they seem to have lost their effectiveness. Over all I'm not too pleased with the direction skins are going.

Cold one riders still need to be cheaper, terridons are ok, and I wish they added in Horned Ones (especially since they took away our quick unit, scouts).

From the one time read through I gave the book it seems like LM are becoming more like O&G with no range and dinosaurs. The skink blocks are overpriced goblins and saurus are uber orc boyz.

Genrazn
29-01-2009, 00:13
Well the 50 poin RnF skinks are great imo. Is there still a ASF weapon for the scarvet?

mechaguinea
22-06-2009, 14:28
Characters
Slanns aren;t as stupid as they were before but they can still add up to over 500 points if your not too careful, the disciplines of the ancients are very fun and its incredibly difficult not to take the maximum number. Slanns are really only worth taking imo if your using temple guard because the bonuses temple guard get for having a slann with them are brilliant. Cupped hands of the old ones is a must have for slann as they are now vulnerable to miscasts as is the enchanted item which gives them a 2+ ward save against ranged attacks, the name of which eludes me since in my mind i always call it ronseal cannonball-proofing for slanns.

Oldbloods are great, they have less WS and Initiative than a chaos lord but costs 55 points less base (and have better armour, 4+ scaly skin and light armour is better than chaos armour)

Scar-Veterans are one of the nastiest hero choices in the game with both strength and toughness 5, most fighty heroes only get one of these (dwarfs and orcs get T5, chaos and vampires get S5) to have both on a single hero choice with an extra attack as well is nice

Skink-priests are pretty meh tbh, they're about as powerful as any other level 1/2 wizard but only have a choice of 1 lore, most wizards get a choice of more than one unless its the army specific ones which tend to be a bit better

Skink chiefs are comparitively weak but there are a few nice tricks you can do with them (stegadon war-spear + ancient stegadon = 2D6+1 stength 6 impact hits + 3 strength 6 attacks from the stegadon + 3 strength 6 attacks from the character, give him a battle standard as well and he'll break battle lines)

Core
Skink skirmishers got a slight points increase and lost scout... GOOD, skink armies were just stupid before, skink skirmishers are still useful for guarding flanks and annoying enemies hiding in woods though

The ranked up units of skinks are pretty poor on they're own but with kroxigors in the unit they're surprisingly nasty, kroxigors as you have doubtless heard from certain whiners have been reduced to strength 6 from strength 7, on the other hand since you can now ut them in skink units you can have kroxigors with 3 ranks a banner and outnumbering, you can also put a character in the unit with the wardrums of xahutec which means they can march even within 8 inches of an enemy unit, mixed with they're formidable movement of 6 this makes them excellent flankers, people really can;t deal with ranked up units with strength 6 attacks coming down they're flanks. Alternatively you can put a skink chief BSB in the unit with the skavenpelt banner, mmmmm frenzied kroxigors.

Saurus are possibly one of the best core units in the game point for point, they're let down a bit by their poor ws but they have decent armour and two attack models with spears are just gribbly

Jungle swarms.... i'm sure they have their uses (killing skirmishers hiding in woods etc) but for the points they are i'd rather buy something else

Special
Temple guard, they're as tough a chaos warriors and are stubborn with a slann in the unit, with leadership 8 and coldblooded with stubborn there is a 206/236 chance of passing a leadership test, make the slann a BSB and they're practically unbreakable. Plus the new plastics look awesome.

Chameleon skinks: Tbh i've never used them, i can see why they'd be good but i can never find the points, generally with poisoned multishot weapons you need as many shots as possible so they need to be fielded in units of 10 and for 120 points i'd much rather take 4 terradons.

Terradons are possibly the greatest unit in the lizardmen list. People have been whinging a lot about how they nerfed they're combat effectiveness and while this may be true, you can get 4 flyers for 120 pnts which once again can drp rocks and light cavalry just can;t take 4D3 strength 4 hits. After rocksw have been dropped terradons can then get down to business of march blocking and warchine hunting, a job that they are more than capable of even with their attacks being reduced since the last book.

Cold one riders are in my opinion too expensive, i've never been a fan of heavy cavalry so i might be a bit biased but it seems to me that it cost 225 for a unit of 5 with full command and it costs 250 for a block of 20 saurus with full command who also count towards my minimum core choices. (not that its hard to fill them with 50 point skink units available) On the other hand cold one riders get 2 strength 5 attacks and a strength 4 attack from the mount on the charge which is bound to make a mess of most things and hey, more dinosaurs right?

Kroxigor units to me seem pretty pointless now you can put them in units of skinks which provie outnumbering, rank and banner bonuses, on the other hand a kroxigor champion is the match for most heroes in a challenge.

Stegadons are gigantic dinosaurs and if we're all really honest, getting to play with gigantic dinosaurs is the reason most people play lizardmen. They're fairly hitty on the charge, more than capable of anchoring a flank with leadership 6 (coldblooded) and stubborn and the engines of the gods with a skink priest with a scroll and the diadem provied pretty much all the anti-magic your ever going to need. The move and shoot bolt thrower is quite nice as well (yes i know its only strength 5) and the giant blowpipes on the ancient version are great for dealing with light cavalry.

Rare
Salamanders and razordons are both units i have yet to use but they look very interesting in my opinion. Razordons look like they'd be very good protecting a flank and salamanders just look fun (frankly i've seen what warpfire throwers can do and i'm looking foward to using units of 3 move and shoot ones)

Magic items
it may be worth noting that temple guard champions can take 1 magic item of 25 poins or less

Weapons
They're are a couple of nice ones, the blade of revered tzunki in particular interests me, the stegadon warspear is possibly one of the strongest magic items in the book and the burning blade of chotec was frankly one of my favourite weapons from the last one (who doesn;t like burning swords?)

Armour
the maiing shield is alright
the shield of the mirrored pool is great
the hide of the cold ones is risky but effective
none of these cost 25 points or less

Talismans
All fairly good (yes, all 3 of them) but once again nothing for under 30 points

Enchanted items: I don;t think i've ever seen a category of magic items which needed a second page. Many of these do seem entirely pointless though. I don't think i'd ever use the 100 point horn the horned one is stupid regardless of what rules it does or doesn;t have, the wardrums are good as is the plaque to make a slann cannon proof but most of them are fairly meh
There are a few for for 25 points or less though, one of which requires you to be a skink, one of which makes an opposing wizard reroll a miscast result and one which gives you +1 to the roll for who places skinks first. The miscast one isn;t bad but by far my favourite has to be the venom of the firefly frog. I always like to give my hitty heroes a magic weapon just in case they come up against something that requires one. The venom of the firefly frog makes attacks from mundane weapons magical and posined, it therefore costs 22 points to give your oldblood a magical poisoned great weapon

Arcane items are Ok although not as good as a lot of the ones i've seen in other army books recently

There are a couple of good banners such as the one which akes enemy wizards stupid (remember that if a character is in a unit the unit will stumble about as the character gives confusing commands "fetch me a hatstand and a tiger and an apricot!") the sun standard is good if your likely to be playing against gunlines but i've found that a far better way of dealing with gunline players is a bit of 2 by 4 with barbed wire wrapped around the end.
I'd also like to know why the lizardman banner which causes fear costs more than the dark elf one

Overall the strength of the lizardmen seems to be the variety that is available to them and the best effects with lizardmen (or indeed any army) are had when you don't just take as much as possible of as little as possible but actually think about what your units are for in relation to the rest of your army.