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View Full Version : Unit Coherency, what is it? What about a 2" Gauge?



HsojVvad
23-01-2009, 15:57
Ok rules wise, I know what Unit Coherency is. But how would it be aplied to real life? I man say you are not within 2" what would happen in real life?

I can see races like SM, Imperium, Tau, Chaos SM, Eldars and maybe even Necrons, but why for Orks, and Tyranids?

Why would unit coherency apply to Orks? They have to tactics. So what if they are not within 2", how would that affect them in real life?

Same for Tyranids? Game wise they have to be withing 12" of a synapse creature and since the automatically pass any LD test they have to make, if they not within 2" why would that make them disorganised in real life?

I came up with an idea of making a 2" gauge. One side would be 2" the other would be 1 7\8" inch. So when I move my Gaunts' or what not, and if I didn't want the close to each other and not using the tape measure all the time, would it be easier to have a gauge so I can seperate the mini's with the gauge but still keep them within 2"? Would this speed up movement?

Also what if using the gauge, I can see the mini move just a bit, that can cause it to be more than 2". Would you be a stickler and say I am out of coherency? That is why I have the other side of 1 7/8 just in case the mini moves when removing the gauge, so it would still be within 2". But would you really be a stickler for that rule or let it slide, if it only happened once in a while depending how terrian is.

I just want to know if the gauge is a good idea or not. I don't want to look like a fool using it, if it's a bad idea.

Bunnahabhain
23-01-2009, 16:27
Bit over the top.

Just use a cavalry base- 50mm, 2" long

Most people will only be bothered about exact 2" coherency in a very few situations, normally involving small, elite units. You can tell by eye if the spacing is off on a big unit, it just looks wrong.

willydstyle
23-01-2009, 16:54
With the numbers of minis fielded by most armies, if you have all of your little men (or foul xeno scum, as the case may be) at perfect 2" coherence, you'll take up much of the room on the board, and this will leave you at a disadvantage vs. an opponent able and willing to concentrate their forces.

Griefbringer
23-01-2009, 17:13
Why would unit coherency apply to Orks? They have to tactics. So what if they are not within 2", how would that affect them in real life?


I am not sure, I have not met any Orks in the real life. They are supposed to be more common in Scotland, but I am yet to visit that land (however, there is a special branch of the UK law enforcement dedicated to dealing with them, called Scotland Waargh).

However based on what I have read, it is something like this:

"We iz orkses, an' we iz mean and green, 'cos green iz da best! An' when we goez to war, which iz like all-da-time, we goez dere wif our maties, an' we makez a mob, an' then we WAAARGH all uva' da plaze, an' we kicks 'em panzies an' stompz 'em humiez, an' dem silly bugeyez we killz da dead! An' it izza much more orky to do with yo matiez, so nobody goez on thei' own wayz, but we stikz together like proper orkziez! Ye feelz so muc mo' waarghy when dere iz da otha' boyz round. An' if ye are dem skummy Deff Skullz, ye don't want ye matiez to go lootin' on them own, 'cos dey could take dem best bitz, so ye gotta watch afta dey bakz!"

Zorz Muaddieb
23-01-2009, 17:14
Gale force nine makes a template that has a 6 inch, 4 inch and 2 inch side. One version is blank besides the inch marks and the other is designed with the Flames of War rules on it. I have one and find it useful.

-Z

NealSmith
23-01-2009, 17:44
I have the GF9 FOW version of the template and it works well.

You could always make your own template out of some plasticard, popsicle sticks, whatever. I'd suggest putting a handle on it (sort of like a "T") to get it in and out between figures.

stroller
23-01-2009, 18:31
Well...trying to get behind what I think the question is.... I wouldn't bother with a 2" gauge - I have a tape measure in my hand when I move the squad anyway.

Why would coherency affect Orks/ Tyranids? My fluff answer would be "Boss...we's getting shot up....boss? boss? where are you boss?" with resultant loss of confidence. As for nids... synapse on the sqaud..but if you drift too far from the brood it loses strength.

starlight
23-01-2009, 19:20
Never played anyone who actually cared enough to check. If you can fit two regular bases, it's too far, so tighten them up and game on...

loveless
23-01-2009, 19:25
"We iz orkses, an' we iz mean and green, 'cos green iz da best! An' when we goez to war, which iz like all-da-time, we goez dere wif our maties, an' we makez a mob, an' then we WAAARGH all uva' da plaze, an' we kicks 'em panzies an' stompz 'em humiez, an' dem silly bugeyez we killz da dead! An' it izza much more orky to do with yo matiez, so nobody goez on thei' own wayz, but we stikz together like proper orkziez! Ye feelz so muc mo' waarghy when dere iz da otha' boyz round. An' if ye are dem skummy Deff Skullz, ye don't want ye matiez to go lootin' on them own, 'cos dey could take dem best bitz, so ye gotta watch afta dey bakz!"

Clearly the most obvious reason for for Orks sticking together (I love Orkspeak...in small doses...I'd never want to read a book of it, for instance).

Tyranids are ruled by the Hive Mind. The Hive Mind is smart enough to know that a single gaunt isn't going to do anything. However, a large cluster of gaunts would work quite well, in theory. Think of their sticking together as a way to prevent the enemy from separating them apart and hacking them to little xeno-bits.

HsojVvad
23-01-2009, 19:29
However based on what I have read, it is something like this:

"We iz orkses, an' we iz mean and green, 'cos green iz da best! An' when we goez to war, which iz like all-da-time, we goez dere wif our maties, an' we makez a mob, an' then we WAAARGH all uva' da plaze, an' we kicks 'em panzies an' stompz 'em humiez, an' dem silly bugeyez we killz da dead! An' it izza much more orky to do with yo matiez, so nobody goez on thei' own wayz, but we stikz together like proper orkziez! Ye feelz so muc mo' waarghy when dere iz da otha' boyz round. An' if ye are dem skummy Deff Skullz, ye don't want ye matiez to go lootin' on them own, 'cos dey could take dem best bitz, so ye gotta watch afta dey bakz!"

Great explanation, LMFAO, I am a believer now. I like the explanation that stoller said. Thanks guys.

I also like the idea of putting a T handle on it. I think I will make one, but not shure if I will use it, as some people say it's not needed. I will try it and see what happens.

Thanks guys for the opnions.

Orkeosaurus
23-01-2009, 19:29
Wondering why models in a unit can't just split up if they need to, or band together?

Most of the time, there is no out-of-game reason for it.

It's a game mechanic, nothing more, to allow the game to be played in a reasonable time (by not doing everything on a model-by-model basis), and to stop the game from becoming too confusing (look at the rule issues that have come up for IC joining and leaving units, and apply them to every unit in the game).

(Alternatively, Griefbringer's answer.)

Colonel_Kreitz
23-01-2009, 19:39
Wondering why models in a unit can't just split up if they need to, or band together?

Most of the time, there is no out-of-game reason for it.

It's a game mechanic, nothing more, to allow the game to be played in a reasonable time (by not doing everything on a model-by-model basis), and to stop the game from becoming too confusing (look at the rule issues that have come up for IC joining and leaving units, and apply them to every unit in the game).

(Alternatively, Griefbringer's answer.)

Got to disagree here. Units stick together for the same reason you don't have single guys peeling off of squads in combat to go attack things: lone soldiers (or very small groups of soldiers) don't accomplish much.

Admittedly, in sqaud/platoon tactics, there are situations where 2 man teams can be broken off to hold security positions, etc., but that's beyond the detail of a 40K game. This explains why organized militaries in 40K (Imperium, Eldar, Tau, etc.) observe 2" coherency.

Orks would obey it because they feel strength in numbers. They are not a race that is very predicated on individuality. Think about the way Orks take morale checks. A huge mob of Orks is basically fearless, whereas a lone work will break and run more often than not. They maintain coherency in order to keep up their mob mentality and stay combat effective.

Similarly, for Tyranids, lone gaunts running around really won't do much (though lone Lictors would, which is why they are designed to work as individuals), which is why they, too, have to stick together in groups.

madd0ct0r
23-01-2009, 20:15
make the template L shaped, base of L 2", height of L 6" and the thickness across the top whatever seems approaite. 1"? something relevant to combat rules maybe...

Griefbringer
23-01-2009, 20:28
Got to disagree here. Units stick together for the same reason you don't have single guys peeling off of squads in combat to go attack things: lone soldiers (or very small groups of soldiers) don't accomplish much.


Also, command and control gets easier (or at least possible) when you are grouped up a bit and not split all over the place.

Also, real world soldiers feel less scared when in the company of others, which is why inexperienced soldiers are likely to bunch up a bit on the battlefields.

IIRC back in the RT days squads might have been able to split up, but they might have needed to skip a movement phase to do so. And in 2nd edition IG squads could detach their heavy weapon to give covering fire while the rest of the squad adcanced.

Orkeosaurus
23-01-2009, 20:38
Got to disagree here. Units stick together for the same reason you don't have single guys peeling off of squads in combat to go attack things: lone soldiers (or very small groups of soldiers) don't accomplish much.Depends on the soldier, in 40k.

A single terminator, nob, or crisis suit can accomplish much.

So can a single guardsman with a melta gun.

Surely there are situations where it would be advantageous to break up a terminator squad to go after two small units, or to break off the guy with the melta gun to take care of a tank while his squad assaults something else.

Breaking models into squads makes sense militarily, but rigidly prohibiting squads from splitting up or merging is really just for ease of use.


Admittedly, in sqaud/platoon tactics, there are situations where 2 man teams can be broken off to hold security positions, etc., but that's beyond the detail of a 40K game. This explains why organized militaries in 40K (Imperium, Eldar, Tau, etc.) observe 2" coherency.Exactly.

Beyond the detail of a 40k game, as combat is done on a unit-to-unit basis, and the ability to split or merge squads would make the game more complex and take longer to play, especially with the number of units most armies have.

On a smaller scale it would be more workable.

starlight
23-01-2009, 20:39
For many of the reasons listed above plus given the nature of the scale of a game of 40K, it's not something you'd see much of. If you want *that* level of control, play Kill Team, Necro or Inquisitor. :)

The smallest cohesive regular military unit (today) is the *platoon*. Generally you don't see anything operating at a smaller level (I'm talking real life, not movies). The Squads and Platoons stick together because that's how they're effective. Tasks are assigned to Platoons and Companies, not to individuals or (excepting rare circumstances) Squads.

Griefbringer
23-01-2009, 21:13
Yep, on attack or defense on modern combat, the task is likely to be assigned to a platoon. On execution, the squads would work in close proximity of each other, directed by a platoon leader. (In 40K terms, IG is about the only one having a platoon structure.)

Smaller units could be still assigned to do patrolling or reconnaissance tasks. And special forces might also operate on squad sized units on certain missions (but these are not your typical battlefield missions).

starlight
23-01-2009, 21:16
Exactly, those missions are more the scale of Kill Team, 40K in 40min, Necromunda, GorkaMorka, or Inquisitor. :)

chromedog
23-01-2009, 21:31
The TAC template made by GF9 has several commonly used measurements on it. Mine is for FoW as well, but the "units" are just as appropriate and useful for 40k.

1" (the "shall come no closer unless assaulting" rule in 40k
2" (used in 40k for unit coherency).
4" (used for vehicle squadron coherency
6" (used for standard infantry and assault move.)

Back in 2nd ed, we (my mates and I) used a similar one that we'd made. It had the common movement rates on it (3,4,5,6") - as different races had different movement rates.

505
24-01-2009, 05:18
Wondering why models in a unit can't just split up if they need to, or band together?

Most of the time, there is no out-of-game reason for it.

It's a game mechanic, nothing more, to allow the game to be played in a reasonable time (by not doing everything on a model-by-model basis), and to stop the game from becoming too confusing (look at the rule issues that have come up for IC joining and leaving units, and apply them to every unit in the game).

(Alternatively, Griefbringer's answer.)

can you imagine a 2000 point IG infantry vrs tyranid guant armies doing skirmish :D

yeah its a game mechanic thing and thats it

Hellebore
24-01-2009, 05:50
Don't modern squads work in fire teams of 3 each? They may all work closely, but that closeness might be defined as 20 metres or more.

40k squad coherency is a lot closer than modern 'coherency', mainly to keep units distinct enough from each other so you don't get confused during the game.

So although modern soldiers do maitain a certain coherency with their fellows they don't do it to such a tight degree as seen in 40k, or at least that is my understanding.

Hellebore

Griefbringer
24-01-2009, 09:07
Don't modern squads work in fire teams of 3 each? They may all work closely, but that closeness might be defined as 20 metres or more.


In the US Army and Marines, and in the British army, the fireteam size is 4 men. And they work in close proximity of each other in combat.

Perhaps the closest to that you get in 40K is the good old space marine combat squad rule, allowing a squad of 10 marines to split into two combat units of 5 marines each.

silentsmoke
24-01-2009, 09:51
I just use a tape measure...

Tarax
24-01-2009, 10:58
I've been thinking of cutting those rulers you get in the AoBR set into bits of 2, 6 and 9 inch. (Why 9? I don't know. :rolleyes: )

But I've also been wandering why it is still 2". I know the rules of 2nd ed a little, and there some units could get a coherency of 4".
Nowadays we play with more models, but the coherency is the same.
Also the templates we use are sometimes not worth it. I mean, the small template will only cover one model if you place the models 2" apart. Even the large template will not cover that many models, the rules suggest it does.
I sometimes place my models 2" apart, just so my opponent will cause minimal damage with any missile launchers and such.

I would rather see a new rule where coherency is 1", but where some units can get 2" coherency. Units like Scouts or other light infantry.

sukigod
24-01-2009, 15:08
Here's what I put together. A 6" and a 12" chunk of foamcore that's 2" wide. This allows for most of my measuring and I can use edge, on end, to quickly measure squad coherency.

This way I only need to bring out the tape measure for the longes dispances (not too often in a an ork force).

HsojVvad
24-01-2009, 18:52
That is nice sukigod. Nice and orkish. I just might have to borrow that idea from you.

Znail
24-01-2009, 19:42
make the template L shaped, base of L 2", height of L 6" and the thickness across the top whatever seems approaite. 1"? something relevant to combat rules maybe...

I would recomend 5" long instead of 6" as that means you can place the stick between where the model are and where you move it. Its probobly the main advantage of using a stick in the first place.