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eagletsi1
23-01-2009, 19:12
does the puppet work the same on no standard miscast table such as the Ogre's, Orc's etc. I have a game this weekend vs WOC and I know they will have this Item, so I just wondering if there is a ruling on it or not?

Mr_Rose
23-01-2009, 19:14
Yup. Sez D3 plus or minus, doesn't say anything about changing it depending on which miscast table you use.

Zal
23-01-2009, 19:25
Works great against Butchers

eagletsi1
23-01-2009, 19:27
A but.. My miscast table is the Gut Magic Miscast Table. So by what you say it means it doesn't work since they didn't state Gut magic miscast table in the name.

I agree that it probably does work, but it's just crazy that GW doesn't realized issues with some items and fix them before going to print.

eagletsi1

Neckutter
23-01-2009, 19:45
GW makes a mistake in an armybook?
burn the heretic!!!

seriously, though. is it a miscast table? then it works. the puppet doesnt spcify that it only affects the standard miscast table. all it says is it manipulates the roll on the miscast table. OnG miscast table, and Gut miscast tables are still miscast tables. do you ever roll more than 2 dice to cast gut spells? when i played OK, i never did.

eagletsi1
23-01-2009, 20:04
No I don't but.. If I roll a snake eyes my butcher is dead almost instantly.

Nerhesi
23-01-2009, 20:07
No I don't but.. If I roll a snake eyes my butcher is dead almost instantly.

black tongue + d3 modify on the roll is pretty retarded against ogres, yes.

Especially if you use nurgle sorcs to finish off the other wounded butchers.

Neckutter
23-01-2009, 20:11
if anyone rolls snakeeyes for their miscast table, they die instantly. tzeentch reach out and snacks on the wizards soul.(or the wizard's head dissolves if your a greenskin)

eagletsi1
23-01-2009, 20:21
No you don't understand. If I miscast I will almost certainly die every time because my Miscast table is a D6 not 2d6 like the others, and results 1 and 6 are death.

Shamfrit
23-01-2009, 20:48
The sensible thing to do is stick to one dice casting, with 7+ dice, you'll manage it; Black Tongue is not as sensible or common anymore, and a 1 is D3 wounds I believe?

How wounds do Ogre Butchers have?

Exactly.

Neckutter
23-01-2009, 20:51
No you don't understand. If I miscast I will almost certainly die every time because my Miscast table is a D6 not 2d6 like the others, and results 1 and 6 are death.

Ogre Kingdoms needed a nerfing anyways. dont worry about it.


hah, but seriously you shouldnt be using more than 2 dice to cast anything, so the odds of you rolling double 1s will be really rare. do you play against WoC alot?

W0lf
23-01-2009, 21:41
Unlike standard of sundering that needs it to be a 'lore'.

A miscast is a miscast.

Oh and with ogres... 1 dice cast, your spells are all like 3+s.

If your that worried take the ridiculous anti-chaos item and make all his nurgle/tz/unmarked units flee of the table.

SuperArchMegalon
24-01-2009, 01:06
I play Ogres. If you miscast, you have to roll a D6. If you roll a 4 and he happens to roll a 3 on d3, not only is your Butcher dead, but all your other Butchers take D3 wounds.

This happened to me in a game a couple weeks ago. I knew he probably had the combo, so the whole game I was throwing 2 dice at every spell. A waste, but better than the alternative. It wasn't until after I had successfully cast the spell (and its casting value increased to 6) that I rolled a 5 on 2 dice, and my opponent killed my Butcher and did 3 wounds to my other. What a combo :(

Neckutter
24-01-2009, 01:33
yeah, i hate it when the HE player brings dragon princes and the armor of caledor when i charge them with my bloodthirster with the firestorm blade.

realistically, you are just going to have to live with the fact that warhammer is sometimes a game of rock/paper/scissors

Arguleon-veq
24-01-2009, 01:53
I would say it would work.

It is very lethal against Orcs and Gobs who have a shockingly harsh miscast table anyway.

eagletsi1
24-01-2009, 03:09
Super:

That's what I'm afraid of also.

People on this board keep saying use 1 dice. If your lucky enough to get a spell off and you need a 6+ for the next spell.

I wonder if the Vampire had a 1D6 miscast table, if we wouldn't see everyone on this board screaming bloody murder. It amazing that 1 30 point item can kill 2,3 character costing about 600 points or more.

GW you really need to get a programmer on your staff who looks at the Crazy things you print and Veto's some of them.

eagletsi

Neckutter
24-01-2009, 04:39
GW doesnt understand this "quality control" of which you speak.
GW also doesnt understand "customer service"... making customers happy? surely you jest.

TrojanWolf
24-01-2009, 05:04
if anyone rolls snakeeyes for their miscast table, they die instantly. tzeentch reach out and snacks on the wizards soul.(or the wizard's head dissolves if your a greenskin)

Not if they're a Tzeentch Sorcerer. In that case, they just go on vacation to the Crystal Labyrinth.

Neckutter
24-01-2009, 05:16
i was thinking more along the lines of tzeentch grabs the sorcerer and says "you are the weakest link... goodbye"

selone
24-01-2009, 13:46
If you roll 1 dice for your butcher spells you have a a 1 in 3 chance to fail to cast. Fail to cast and isn't there a one use item that turns a fail to cast into a miscast? Ogre miscast table being d6 not 2 d6 really hurts them for this. As mentioned orc and goblin miscast is brutal too though thats the fault of the miscast table being brutal not it being a d6 roll.

Djekar
24-01-2009, 14:20
Hell I'm just glad the item's useful for something! I'd be surprised to see it in an all comers list, though I imagine if tailored to fight Ogres it might be pretty handy to have as long as you can scrounge up 50 points to go on one of your already pricey and tightly packed characters.

~Pompadour

enyoss
24-01-2009, 16:08
People on this board keep saying use 1 dice. If your lucky enough to get a spell off and you need a 6+ for the next spell.

...

It amazing that 1 30 point item can kill 2,3 character costing about 600 points or more.


But no one is making you cast the spell a second time are they? Ok, it's not the best situation, but it really isn't the end of the world. You've just got to try your best to get into combat asap and get rid of the sorcerers.

As for the 30pt item killing 600pts of characters? It's a bit over-dramatic isn't it?

Firstly, the 30 point item doesn't float about by itself, it has to have at least another 100pts of sorcerer attached to it, and that's a sorceror with no other items or magic levels.

Secondly, you have to actually miscast! You have 600pts of butchers right? That's a lot of 1D6 casting or, if you're terrified of the one off effect of the Black Tongue, you can use 2D6 per spell and still only expose yourself to minimal risk.

Finally, I'm not too familar with the Gut Magic miscast table, but can someone tell me how many results automatically slay all Butchers on the tabletop? Also, do any of the most extreme results (i.e. the ones which could wipe out 600pts of your magic users) damage your opponent's magic users also? What I'm getting at is that I suspect the conditions necessary for 600pts of your stuff to get wiped out are pretty rare?

I know it's harsh but, well, that's it really, it's harsh. I think the added risk to Ogres is balanced by the fact that they have more wounds than most magic users in the first place (so D3 wounds isn't even fatal in most cases), and can then heal lost wounds back in any case.

Cheers,

enyoss

p.s. I'm not a WOC player either :D.

decker_cky
24-01-2009, 16:50
Hell I'm just glad the item's useful for something! I'd be surprised to see it in an all comers list, though I imagine if tailored to fight Ogres it might be pretty handy to have as long as you can scrounge up 50 points to go on one of your already pricey and tightly packed characters.

~Pompadour

The item is probably the best item in the WoC magic item list. It's an amazing value for an item that minimizes the effects of your own miscasts, and makes opponents miscasts brutal. The black tongue is a little more arguable, but any army with a strong magic phase will have the infernal puppet.

EvC
24-01-2009, 17:22
But no one is making you cast the spell a second time are they? Ok, it's not the best situation, but it really isn't the end of the world. You've just got to try your best to get into combat asap and get rid of the sorcerers.

Well, it should be assumed that any player in his right mind would be trying to do this regardless of whether the enemy wizards had anything that useful on them anyway ;) Last time I saw someone field the Black Tongue it was on a Disc Rider, which makes him pretty hard to catch (Although not impossible: in another game I made a Disc Sorcerer flee off the board from the ogre panic spell. Not very likely, mind :D ).

But yeah, you're right, you can avoid failing to cast the spell by not trying the 6+ castings. Although I should note, the best Ogre player I know commonly forgets that the casting value has increased to 6+, and if he can forget, I worry about the rest of us lot!


As for the 30pt item killing 600pts of characters? It's a bit over-dramatic isn't it?

Firstly, the 30 point item doesn't float about by itself, it has to have at least another 100pts of sorcerer attached to it, and that's a sorceror with no other items or magic levels.

Well it's actually 50 points for the Black Tongue to cause a miscast, and 35 points for the Infernal Puppet to modify a miscast, so a pricy combo, to be sure.


Secondly, you have to actually miscast! You have 600pts of butchers right? That's a lot of 1D6 casting or, if you're terrified of the one off effect of the Black Tongue, you can use 2D6 per spell and still only expose yourself to minimal risk.

Yeah, but you know if someone did miscast on 2 dice (Let's say he attempts 24 possible castings in a game, he should miscast at least once... well, you're the mathematician, you can work it out better than me!), and then the Puppet killed their Butcher, the response would be, "Well don't cast on two dice then, duh!!!" ;)


Finally, I'm not too familar with the Gut Magic miscast table, but can someone tell me how many results automatically slay all Butchers on the tabletop?

The result of 1 instantly kills the casting Butcher, and deals D3 wounds to every Butcher on the table. The rest are bad, but none do any damage to the opponent (6 makes the Butcher frenzied, but that result can never happen with BT and IP). Given that Gut Magic causes wounds to the caster with many of the spells in the list, it's quite likely that most Butchers on the table will be on 3 wounds or less, and so could die as a result.


What I'm getting at is that I suspect the conditions necessary for 600pts of your stuff to get wiped out are pretty rare?

If the Ogre player miscasts once, or fails to cast a single spell as long as the combo is on the field, then he has about a 50% chance of the 1 result coming up, killing his Butcher and crippling any others.


I know it's harsh but, well, that's it really, it's harsh. I think the added risk to Ogres is balanced by the fact that they have more wounds than most magic users in the first place (so D3 wounds isn't even fatal in most cases), and can then heal lost wounds back in any case.

Instant death is pretty fatal! As noted D3 wounds could kill off most other Butchers on the table... perhaps a decent Ogre "tactic" to counter this would be to try and fail to cast a spell early on in the game- it might kill the Butcher outright, but at least it would ensure no other deaths. But it would leave the Ogre army pretty much completely at the mercy of their opponent's magic. Also Ogre magic does actually need to be cast for a start- if you're down to one Butcher as a result, with 4 power dice total, I wouldn't expect to get any decent spells off. If he's down to one wound then even casting the wound recovery spell could kill him (On a 1 he takes another wound instead of being healed)!

The point is, not that it's especially broken- the Chaos player is using 85 points of magic item allowance to have a 50% chance of insta-killing a ~150 point enemy model and crippling the 1-2 other similar models on the table. But compared to how it affects other armies, it is far more damaging. And Ogres are the last army that needs another kicking (Along with Orcs, similarly affected). 20% chance of insta-win vs Vampire Counts as well, or something similar. At least Ogres can function without their wizards :D

W0lf
24-01-2009, 18:44
Infernal puppet is 35 pts.

Yes its not entirley relevant but i thought someone should point that out.

SuperArchMegalon
24-01-2009, 20:41
At least Ogres can function without their wizards :D

D'oh, you just blew your cred.

wingedserpant
24-01-2009, 21:48
A but.. My miscast table is the Gut Magic Miscast Table. So by what you say it means it doesn't work since they didn't state Gut magic miscast table in the name.

I agree that it probably does work, but it's just crazy that GW doesn't realized issues with some items and fix them before going to print.

eagletsi1

What issue? Its pretty simple to figure out. All miscast results are on tables so all that is needed would be the words 'miscast and table.'

Solasun
24-01-2009, 21:58
Actually, SAM, if you pop over to the Ogre Stronghold this is one our current experiments (Butcher-less lists) and it's not doing too badly.

Djekar
25-01-2009, 03:26
um... I was talking about the black tongue being worth it. Infernal Puppet is in every list I make that has more than a single scroll caddy. I know that was unclear, but let the record show that, in fact, Infernal Puppet does = awesome.

~Swine

decker_cky
25-01-2009, 04:15
I think the black tongue can be considered worthwhile as well. It really pays off vs anything with a lord level caster, giving you a good shot at killing off a major character on turn 1. And how much is it worth to knock out a magic phase on an early spell? Or to make a mage forget their key spell? With the control of the miscast, the black tongue is one of the better magic defences. Yes, it is very expensive (both in points and the wound), but I don't think it's too far off on the price. And yes, it's a meta choice, but how good it is against O&G and ogres is minor consideration compared to the armies you really want it for (vamps, GD led daemons, etc..).

Red_Duke
25-01-2009, 08:06
Well, in the case of Ogres, that kinda combo is id think most likely to be at tournaments. People not WAAC'ing rarely want the game to be over by turn 2, because lets face it, it makes for a pretty crap game afterall. In tourneys on the other hand, you're likely there as either the lone Ogre player, or one of 2-3. Likewise, theres generally not too many WoC tournament players around, as its just so much easier to turn up with Daemons, Vamps or DE and muller people. So, at worst you get them maybe once or twice, but quite possibly not at all. Is that really that much worse than getting some crazy ass daemon army with 20 odd powerdice, or a vamp army that just spams you to death with zombies and spends the entire game bunkered?

Agreed its pretty crap for Ogres, but sadly there are all sorts of things in the game like that. Paper-Scissors-Stone is still much in effect in the game, especially at the tournament end...

Oh, and the brahmir statue won't actually work vs most chaos armies, as most units either cause fear, or are immune to it. You might be able to use it to chase some warhounds off the board though ;)

Kalist
25-01-2009, 11:51
The other bonus of the Infernal puppet is being able to modify your own miscast table. You can cast infernal gateway on your enemy's biggest, baddest unit every round, throw tons of power dice at it, and be completely unafraid of miscasting. Oh no, miscast. Snake eyes? I think I'll modify that... The scary thing about infernal gateway is that if you try it on the same unit every round it will eventually work and wipe that unit off the table.

Immunity to having your mage sucked into the void and being able to modify the enemy's miscast by d3 for 35 points? I can't imagine any HOC army showing up without one of these.

It sucks that the enemy can laugh and toss five dice down at one spell when I start to sweat just thinking about rolling two dice with my vampire lord.

eagletsi1
25-01-2009, 12:08
As someone else said, "I don't think it's possible to make a sound Ogre army without Butchers." I have been playing them almost a year now, and yes I could take all ironguts with Brusiers and magic items for defense, but in 80% of my games Ogre Magic is the reason I win them.

Example:

Recently I charged a Dark Elf Unit with Hagref banner (ASF) with two ogre units. He had 3 ranks and a bSB included and they has great swords.


After, I knew I had to cast Regeneration spells to survive. I used both butchers plus their tooth Gnoblars to get the spell off. I kill 2 on the bull charge. He struck first causing 6 wounds. In the challenge he cause 4 wounds, Without the spell I would have been destroyed. I would have lost by 11+3(ranks)+BSB+Standard= a total of 15 to my Standard and BSB and outnumber = a total of 3.

So I would need to roll 2 to stay.

With the regen spell I have 2 wounds in the challenge and 4 wounds in the units. Ok before I would have lost 7 attacks back, but with the spell I kept those attacks. In the challenge I killed his BSB 2 wounds and in attacks back I killed 5 more Dark Elves.

So now he did 4 wounds, he has 3 ranks, standard = a total of 8
I did 5 wounds, standard, bsb = 9 He lost

Big difference their is now way to compete with the new tier armies unless you have butchers. Same for High Elves and Daemons, vamps, etc.

Thats my take.

I did 5 wounds

Da Black Gobbo
25-01-2009, 12:09
Combined with Pandemonium this item may make any wizzard in game have a nice day in hell, (i'm looking at you new CheeSlans that now can miss cast haha!! take that, roll any double i dare you!).

EvC
25-01-2009, 22:11
Big difference their is now way to compete with the new tier armies unless you have butchers. Same for High Elves and Daemons, vamps, etc.

Bif difference is Warriors aren't quite in the same league, don't have tonnes of shooting,and don't have many units that always strike first. While I agree that Ogres do need their magic to contend with many of the new armies, against Warriors, you can probably risk two-dice castings if you're worried that the enemy will Tongue you down ;)

TrojanWolf
27-01-2009, 04:22
But no one is makingSecondly, you have to actually miscast! You have 600pts of butchers right? That's a lot of 1D6 casting or, if you're terrified of the one off effect of the Black Tongue, you can use 2D6 per spell and still only expose yourself to minimal risk.

You'd be better off waiting for your Hellcannon to misfire!

Cambion Daystar
27-01-2009, 07:20
Black Tongue + Infernal puppet vs Ogres is overkill. If this was a friendly game, i'd change it from +- D3 to +-1 just to not screw him over totally. In a tournament setting on the other hand, it would really depend on how much of an ass my opponent is.

Da Black Gobbo
27-01-2009, 09:34
Black Tongue + Infernal puppet vs Ogres is overkill. If this was a friendly game, i'd change it from +- D3 to +-1 just to not screw him over totally. In a tournament setting on the other hand, it would really depend on how much of an ass my opponent is.

In a tournament no matter if the oponent is your mother, you will own him to death (if you can) :D and when you finally rise victorious there is allways the option of inviting Him/Her to a beer in order to become friends again :D:D.

Cambion Daystar
27-01-2009, 09:36
True, but i also like to lose the first game by a massacre. Means i usually end up against more relaxed opponents in the following battles...

Yes, i am weird sometimes (or most of the time depending who you ask :D)

nosferatu1001
27-01-2009, 13:05
I can sympathise - played in what should be a non-WAAC mixed doubles tourney against a cheating (actually demonstrably cheating) AND unsporting player, lost hidesouly but we then faced some awesomely fun people, who ahd actually spent time converting a lovely army. One opponent wont best army as well. Even though we lost and drew (so close to the wooden spoon!) the final two it was still more fun.

It could have been the shisky we started drinking after the first game that helped however....

Evil-Lite
27-01-2009, 14:42
Example:

Recently I charged a Dark Elf Unit with Hagref banner (ASF) with two ogre units. He had 3 ranks and a bSB included and they has great swords.


After, I knew I had to cast Regeneration spells to survive. I used both butchers plus their tooth Gnoblars to get the spell off. I kill 2 on the bull charge. He struck first causing 6 wounds. In the challenge he cause 4 wounds, Without the spell I would have been destroyed. I would have lost by 11+3(ranks)+BSB+Standard= a total of 15 to my Standard and BSB and outnumber = a total of 3.


Care to explain how Executioners with a single attack (only DE unit that can use great weapons) can dish out 6 wounds after you remove 2 from impact hits? Either he is running one HUGE block (8 wide with 3 ranks) or something is not adding up.

P.S. Multiple tournaments have been won by Ogre Players that use 1 butcher as a scroll caddy. So Ogre magic is not "required" to play Ogres successfully.

EvC
27-01-2009, 15:44
Clue's in the text: the Dark Elf BSB was in the unit too, and I believe BSB Hags get 5 attacks. 6 wounds is not too hard.

Evil-Lite
27-01-2009, 18:53
Clue's in the text: the Dark Elf BSB was in the unit too, and I believe BSB Hags get 5 attacks. 6 wounds is not too hard.

While this could be the case then who was in the challenge then?

Nerhesi
27-01-2009, 19:44
Combined with Pandemonium this item may make any wizzard in game have a nice day in hell, (i'm looking at you new CheeSlans that now can miss cast haha!! take that, roll any double i dare you!).

Uhhh....

The slann that will transfer miscasts on a 2+ to an enemy in LoS? I'd be praying for someone to have a blacktongue!

"Miscast!?!?! ZOMG! Modify it?!?! wtf?!?! I DIE?!?! Ok.. on 2+ your lord dies."

The same Slann that makes your wizards ignore all 6s (not a spell or anything you just don't get to use 6s - period). The same army that can make all your wizards STUPID even though they're immune to psych.

Really - LM worries least about that...

Sam W.

EvC
27-01-2009, 22:41
While this could be the case then who was in the challenge then?

Damn, my reading comprehension is really playing up these days :o Sorry :)

Da Black Gobbo
27-01-2009, 23:01
Uhhh....

The slann that will transfer miscasts on a 2+ to an enemy in LoS? I'd be praying for someone to have a blacktongue!

"Miscast!?!?! ZOMG! Modify it?!?! wtf?!?! I DIE?!?! Ok.. on 2+ your lord dies."

The same Slann that makes your wizards ignore all 6s (not a spell or anything you just don't get to use 6s - period). The same army that can make all your wizards STUPID even though they're immune to psych.

Really - LM worries least about that...

Sam W.

i hope you allways carry that item with you.

TrojanWolf
28-01-2009, 03:28
Uhhh....

The slann that will transfer miscasts on a 2+ to an enemy in LoS? I'd be praying for someone to have a blacktongue!

"Miscast!?!?! ZOMG! Modify it?!?! wtf?!?! I DIE?!?! Ok.. on 2+ your lord dies."

The same Slann that makes your wizards ignore all 6s (not a spell or anything you just don't get to use 6s - period). The same army that can make all your wizards STUPID even though they're immune to psych.

Really - LM worries least about that...

Sam W.

All I have going through my head now is "No, you have my S10 hit."

nosferatu1001
28-01-2009, 11:40
Or "No you have my get sucked into the warp and die instantly hit"

Fat frog giggles :D

Bac5665
28-01-2009, 13:57
i hope you allways carry that item with you.

I can't imagine building a Slaan without it, so it shouldn't be a problem. :angel:

nosferatu1001
28-01-2009, 15:51
I will always have that on a Slaan, now they don't ignroe miscasts.

It's also for the look the first time you use it on a WoC player who has just dropped your 5 (he gets free spell) to a 2 :D

Nurgling Chieftain
28-01-2009, 19:47
Well, you can't take both the cupped hands AND the cavalry-are-stubborn items on the same Slann, so at <3,000 points you'll have to choose.

Bac5665
28-01-2009, 20:56
Right,...

I have no problem not taking the horn. I don't like building my list around gimmicks.