PDA

View Full Version : 2 Varghulf or not 2 Varghulf?



BigbyWolf
25-01-2009, 11:07
Simple question really, is taking 2 Varghulfs effective, or does it whiff a bit of cheddar?

Oberon
25-01-2009, 11:09
Both. They are very good, and double so when taken in pairs.

Cromenon
25-01-2009, 11:12
Why not a Varghulf + Coach?

Oberon
25-01-2009, 11:15
Coach is slow, varghulf is fast, and it hits harder, even when both are charging (impakt hits are too random, varg has always its 5 good attacks) IMO. Chariot has its liabilities too, but I admit that after the coach has powered up it is superior.

Frankly
25-01-2009, 15:51
Coach is slow, varghulf is fast....

Pretty much.

Varghulf also combo well with black knight units with no barding.

I've had limited playing time with 2 vaghulf, usually running 1 vaghulf + 1 black knight unit around the board edges and bashing up enemy flanks.

When I get back into playing V.C. it'll be with 2 vaghulf in the list + lots of dire wolves as a delivery system.

FatOlaf
25-01-2009, 18:18
Simple question really, is taking 2 Varghulfs effective, or does it whiff a bit of cheddar?

2 units of wraiths plus ladies will get the cheese police out in force, but 2 Vargs, no probs, my one (Henry) has died more times than he has survived the battle. 2 together will be an awesome combo (but no where hear as bad as say, 2 Hydras, which are the same points..), IMO they should have had eternal hatred and then they would have been worth taking over wraiths..

Go for it, it will be fun and IMO Cheese free.....:D

Frankly
25-01-2009, 19:20
.... IMO they should have had eternal hatred and then they would have been worth taking over wraiths..

.

Varghulfs don't need eternal hatred, they've got terror for first turn auto breaks and normal hatred is good enough, given that they're a supporting unit.

AngryAngel
25-01-2009, 19:26
Actually I had thought of a cool mod for a varghulf that would be awesome. If you loved zombies and corpse carts. Make one thats either a giant bulging zombie beast, using its rules. Or one that is made up of say a bunch of zombies bodies grafted into one gaint, hulking and ever hungry form.

Why does it count as a vampire you say ? Surely someghing can be explained it would be quite a diffrent and zombie awesome monster though.

RossS
25-01-2009, 19:26
I have never taken a pair of them, but one is certainly a sound investment. A truly superb support unit. It's great for taking out light cavalry, skirmishers, wizards, war machines and missile units.

FatOlaf
26-01-2009, 16:14
Varghulfs don't need eternal hatred, they've got terror for first turn auto breaks and normal hatred is good enough

terror nowadays is not what it was against most 7th Ed armies, eternal hatred would have been a sensible power..


given that they're a supporting unit.

They are rares, same points as Hydras that can take on units by themselves, not good enough IMO, hence taking 2 is a good idea....

theunwantedbeing
26-01-2009, 16:23
2 can be plenty brutal enough.
Sure they dont hit as hard as a hydra but they will stick around in a fight far longer as well as being a damn sight faster.

Plus being a vampire means you can use them to get your troops marching rather than needing to send your character's to go babysit your troops.

It's not cheesy at all to have 2 of them.
Why?
The hydra, same cost...more wounds, breathes fire and has more attacks. So of course people think the vargulf is pretty poor for its cost now.

Frankly
26-01-2009, 16:48
terror nowadays is not what it was against most 7th Ed armies, eternal hatred would have been a sensible power..

They are rares, same points as Hydras that can take on units by themselves, not good enough IMO, hence taking 2 is a good idea....

Stop pretending that Varghulfs should be on the same par as hydras, hydras are so very under costed they're almost broken, if you argument is that they should also be under costed as well ... well thats up to you. They're not hydras, they never will be, they won't get a points reduction, but they're still worth every points without eternal hatred. There is no reason for eternal hatred imho.

Varghulfs are rare because they do their job well. Way watchers, RBTs, giant eagles are all example of supporting rare choices. Being rare doesn't automatically make you a hammer unit.

As a support unit Varghulf are brilliant, especially at first turn breaking enemy units .... with or without terror. The V.C. armybook is a wash with heavy hitting units, varghulf fits perfectly into the mold of supporting these other units with combat CR(and/or enemy support unit hunting) or being supported by other unit for first turn breaks.

Terror is a fine tool in 7th Edition, Imho after playing Undead since 4th Edition, I think Terror has found its happy medium in the rules. Terror + hatred + high speed = great unit.

sroblin
27-01-2009, 00:53
Yeah, no question that the Varghulf speedy hitting power fulfills the needs of the Vampire list very well. So if we agree that Varghulfs are awesome, what are reasons to consider not taking two?
1) Do you really need two powerful fast support units, versus core combat units? Answer may be yes, but keep in mind they're roughly around the cost of a regiment of skeletons with command or a small unit of black knights, etc. Ironically, for what I used to think of as a 'horde' army, Undead armies these days can use the extra (dead) bodies.
2) Do you want the 2nd terror-bat more than a unit of Cairn Wraiths or Blood Knights or a Chariot? All deadly units worth considering, with their pros and cons and varying uses. A small unit of cairn wraiths may cost about the same as a Vaghulf, but in general they are all more expensive- but I personally prefer diversity (and multi-fuctionality). But to each his own.

SlaaneshSlave
27-01-2009, 02:49
2 units of wraiths plus ladies will get the cheese police out in force...
I've been playing around with 2 maximum sized units for 1,050 point of rares. With an ethereal Lord to provide march & some armor.

It has been fun. Very killy & very fragile. I love the glass cannon.

Usopreme
27-01-2009, 02:52
I love the varghulf and usually take one, however I think there is better synergy between a varghulf and black knights/wraiths/blood knights than another vargulf.

Oberon
27-01-2009, 07:25
No who said one can't have both 2 varghulfs and some black knights? I have 10 (incl chars), and they are devastating when they are flanked by 2 varghulfs.. One can hit a large part of the enemy battle line at the same time, hard. Terror is nice, long charge range is nice, having regen is really nice, with a BSB around they can grind down any regiment given enough time, and break the smaller ones in one or two rounds. Most importantly, they are the cheapest rare choice (I don't count 3 wraiths, a bit too small unit IMO), and still good, though not hydra-good.

FatOlaf
27-01-2009, 16:40
Stop pretending that Varghulfs should be on the same par as hydras, hydras are so very under costed they're almost broken, if you argument is that they should also be under costed as well ... well thats up to you. They're not hydras, they never will be, they won't get a points reduction, but they're still worth every points without eternal hatred. There is no reason for eternal hatred imho.

I am not pretending that they should be on the same par as Hydra's, I just wish they were..
I just think that eternal hatred for the points would have made them perfect, that or US5, which is a big loss, the no ranks / rear rule is useless


Varghulfs are rare because they do their job well. Way watchers, RBTs, giant eagles are all example of supporting rare choices. Being rare doesn't automatically make you a hammer unit.

Except they are now though in 7th, Empire have steam tanks, HE can take 4 RBT's, DE have Hydra's and Deamons have the dreaded Flamers.
We of course have the Wraiths but there are so many magical attacks out there that you spend half your time hiding them, relying on a good scream..
Our other rares are very situational (coach) or utterly over priced (blood Knights)....


Terror is a fine tool in 7th Edition, Imho after playing Undead since 4th Edition, I think Terror has found its happy medium in the rules. Terror + hatred + high speed = great unit.

I've been playing WFB since 3rd and also have found Terror to be a very useful tool, however , now there is so much ITP stuff out there, it not any more, also the Varg's Regen is not the thing it was, with flaming coming to the fore as well...

I am basing my opinions on the Varg vs modern 7th armies, so my reasoning behind my criticism of the Varg was to say to the OP that taking 2 was not only 'not cheesy' but a 'very good idea'....


I've been playing around with 2 maximum sized units for 1,050 point of rares. With an ethereal Lord to provide march & some armor.

It has been fun. Very killy & very fragile. I love the glass cannon.

I've seen a fair few of these around at tournies, I just wish I had that many wraiths to do one, however the fun soon ends when you come up against Deamons....:cries:

Yerun
27-01-2009, 19:09
Varghulfs don't need eternal hatred, they've got terror for first turn auto breaks and normal hatred is good enough, given that they're a supporting unit.

Varghulf have infinite hatred and therefor always hatred.

Oberon
27-01-2009, 19:38
No, they do not. They have just hatred.

ScottyFargo
27-01-2009, 21:51
No, they do not. They have just hatred.

This is correct. In the book it's labelled something else, but it only gives the Hatred rule, not the Vampiric Bloodline power that would give hatred each round. Varghulfs only benefit from Hatred the 1st round of each combat.

iamfanboy
28-01-2009, 02:09
I dunno; I personally think that 1 Vargulf + 6 Black Knights is plenty enough for a heavy-duty flanking force. I think that a Black Coach makes for an excellent Rare choice, especially near a couple of units of Ghouls or Dire Wolves who might be away from the General and need a bit of oomph to make a March Move.


Of course, my choice might well have been influenced by the fact that I like my Vampires magic-heavy... plenty of Power Dice in the first couple of turns helps my Black Coach buff out fast.

Or maybe because I'm building on a budget and already had a Black Coach from years before, and can't afford anything else?

sroblin
28-01-2009, 15:59
No who said one can't have both 2 varghulfs and some black knights?

Sorry, I meant Blood Knights. Black Knights are indeed great and do pair well with Varghulfs.

Blood Knights are useful for attempting to steamroll units without support. But they do attract a lot attention, can be misdirected, etc.

Oberon
28-01-2009, 16:07
Well, you can have 2 varghulfs and some blood knights too, you just need to play 3k+ games :D

Seriously though, with their frenzy, small unit size (due to price and points cost) and notoriety amongst our enemies as the thatunitmustbestoppedorIlosehorribly-steamroller unit, I prefer larger unit of black knights with 2 varghulfs to 1 varg and some blood knights. My Blood knights cost around 370pts, and my blackies are 260 or something, blackies win with their characters, take more punishment, and don't need varghulfs either (in combat, they have their own combats to win).
Then again, taking it all can be fun (for one side at least) too. My 10 regenerating blackies, 1 varg and 5 bloodies is quite brutal sometimes..

Frankly
28-01-2009, 16:44
I am not pretending that they should be on the same par as Hydra's, I just wish they were..


.....I just think that eternal hatred for the points would have made them perfect, that or US5, which is a big loss, the no ranks / rear rule is useless



I wish they were to, but GWs wanted to sell more Hydras than Varghulfs I guess.:angel:

But, they'd be terribly broken at US5, they'd be a one model unit breaker against units costing more than them if the varghulf hits the flank of a rank and file unit and in a V.C. army that can throw out alot of Danses thats not hard to do.

Right now running them with a naked unit of black knights and hitting flanks == win combat at the moment for me so I'm happy with varghulfs the way they are.

Sifal
29-01-2009, 00:11
to me it really seems almost always seems better to take a small unit of cairn wraiths rather than two varghulfs. I find the 360 degree LoS can be invaluable and because they are skirmishers they can fit in the smallest gap between two of your own units so as to be able to flank charge but not be charged in return. Against daemons they suffer but so does a varghulf with the amount of flaming attacks daemons have. On paper a varghulf seems better and if i were to take only one rare it would be a varghulf. however, for a second rare choice wraiths bring so much more to the table (providing you have enough vampires to help marching)

SlaaneshSlave
29-01-2009, 00:47
Why not 2 HUGE units of wraiths? Must be better than small units...

At least I'm liking it.

Frankly
29-01-2009, 16:02
For me the two units play just a bit differently, also I'm a huge fan of hatred for consistent dice rolls. The charge range of the varghulf is the big winner in my book, being a vampire means that he can roan wide f the main battle, taking some B.knights + dire wolves with him to split up focus on the rank file.

I really like wraiths in all infantry lists, their mobility is a stronger factor than the varghulfs charge range.

Both great units.