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AdmiralDick
25-01-2009, 15:21
if i were going to make an army of ranged, anti-infantry Khornate guardsmen, which rules should i use?

what are the actual differences between the Codex: IG, IA:5 Renegade and Heretics Army List and IA:6 Renegade and Heretics Army List? there isn't a GW very near me, so i haven't had an opportunity to look inside any of the IA Vraks books. and buying them blind is quite an expensive risk.

ultimately i'd like to use a screen of conscripts/abhumans to protect a row of units each with a heavy weapon, chosen dependent on the opponent. i'd also like to use lots of Ld based stuff to try and keep the guard in one place (i think the brutality of such a force really resonates with Khorne's themes).

totgeboren
25-01-2009, 15:39
I just use the IG codex, where all my standard guard squads have anti-infantry weapons, and my JO-squads got a lascannon each.
I make lots of use of light infantry and flamers, playing aggressively and outflanking.

I haven't read IA:6, but to me they are just abit worse guards with a squad of marines for support.
Also i don't like the random Ld-thing of the IA:5 list. I mean, My Colonel cant run around with a Ld of 5 and now can he? :P

Grindgodgrind
25-01-2009, 15:44
If you can find it, there was a decent article on what doctrines to use for making Blood Pact, if you were leaning that way.

Belisarius
25-01-2009, 15:59
you could use the nemisis list in the witch hunter codex as well

AdmiralDick
25-01-2009, 16:02
thanks for the suggestions so far. i'd rather avoid things like flamers, because i don't really want my army getting too close to the enemy. i don't particularly want to upgrade the rubbishy squads, they are just to be a meat shield, but i might give them flamers in case anyone gets too close.

i don't know about the Ld thing in IA:5 because i've never read the books. though i personally would quite like an army that has low leadership, representing their rather cowardly attitude and the fact that most of them have been forced to turn up at gun point (which is why i'd want Enforcers/Commisars and other Ld buffs but generally low Ld). plus it would be a nice change from my normally rock solid CSM army. having to compensate for people dying like flies and running away will be quite a nice challenge.

i have read the blood pact article, but i think i'll have to read it again.

and i'd rather not join Pirate Bay, but thanks for the suggestion.

does anyone own the two Vraksian books? can anyone give me a rundown of the differences between the IA army lists and the Codex?

TheOneWithNoName
25-01-2009, 16:17
does anyone own the two Vraksian books? can anyone give me a rundown of the differences between the IA army lists and the Codex?

I'll give it a shot, Admiral.

General differences between IG and Vraksians
- Random Leadership
- Demo Charges as wargear
- Ability to take CSM units (Chaos Lord, Chosen, Berserkers)
- New type of Ogryn
- New units (Beastmen, minefield, artillery strike)
- Armoured fists MUST remain in reserve for IA5 list
- Air units, Beastmen, Ogryn+Hounds in the IA6 list

Strix
25-01-2009, 16:32
I'd personally say "wait a month or two unil the new guard codex is out" and see what you can do with that. I personally see this sort of army being in two bits. The elite bit, made up of dedicated Khorne worshippers kitted out bloodpact style with heavy armour and loads of heavy weapons, and conscripts, which could be captured soldiers from other armies (flagellants would be quite cool for this, I personally use them as conscripts with warrior weapons)

AdmiralDick
25-01-2009, 16:48
I'll give it a shot, Admiral.

General differences between IG and Vraksians
- Random Leadership
- Demo Charges as wargear
- Ability to take CSM units (Chaos Lord, Chosen, Berserkers)
- New type of Ogryn
- New units (Beastmen, minefield, artillery strike)
- Armoured fists MUST remain in reserve for IA5 list
- Air units, Beastmen, Ogryn+Hounds in the IA6 list

thanks, that's the sort of information i'm looking for. so are the Ld of the units randomly generated before the game? they could be high or low?

how do the Ogryns differ from the traditional sort? the models obviously imply they don't have ripper guns but CCWs, but is there a more profound difference?

what air units are in the new IA list? are they just the ones we've seen so far? also, are they Datasheets or standard units?


I'd personally say "wait a month or two unil the new guard codex is out" and see what you can do with that.

i'm certainly looking forward to the new IG book, but i don't think there's a need to wait. the difference between all the lists is not going to be so stark that an army built using one can't be played with the other (switching in a few units). the rumour that you can shoot through your own troops unimpeded sounds like something that i will definitely be making use of.


I personally see this sort of army being in two bits.

effectively that would be exactly what it would be. though i wouldn't describe either half as 'elite'. there would be the average half and the below average half.

Darkane
25-01-2009, 17:03
A squads leadership is randomly determined right when they take their first test. So you won't know if you've got a squad of fanatics or a group of guys who are looking for the first opportunity to turn tail and run. It can range from high to low (between 5 and 10).

The ogryns do have a random number of attacks which are rolled for during the beginning of the combat. You then test to see if the drugs in their system that are making them crazed cause additional wounds to themselves afterwards.

As heavy support choices, the renegades list in Imperial Armor 6 has access to the Hell Talon and the Hell Blade. You also get rules for the Malcador and its variants as well as the dreadclaw drop pods. You also get rules for the Chaos Warhound titan.

DarkMatter2
25-01-2009, 21:01
Isn't it somewhat weird to make Khornate Guard that fights ranged? Isn't Khorne all about manly close combat?

CannedLaughter
25-01-2009, 21:36
Isn't it somewhat weird to make Khornate Guard that fights ranged? Isn't Khorne all about manly close combat?
Khorne cares not how or from where the blood flows, as long as it flows.

Greatoliver
25-01-2009, 22:30
Khorne cares not how or from where the blood flows, as long as it flows.

And if you look back at old Khornate troopers, they had bolters :)

Sir_Turalyon
26-01-2009, 08:56
Khorne is war god, among things he's about are martial pride, disciplinary / honourable codes, and (on Epic scale) enormous firepower. It's Khorne's space marines who prefere close combat, probably because when you are space marine just being good at killing things doesn't make you stand out as bloodthirsty... but even that does not mean Khorne marines do nothing but run to close combat.



++ Chosen of Khorne, lead us in the final assault!
++ Blood for the Blood God! Suppressing fire. Forward and centre. Heavy Bolters range 250. Move scum. . .

Communications intercept ends. The Portein defenders are assumed to have detonated their armoury.

catbarf
26-01-2009, 10:05
Isn't it somewhat weird to make Khornate Guard that fights ranged? Isn't Khorne all about manly close combat?

Not if you read fluff from prior to the 3rd Ed. simplification.

CthulhuDalek
26-01-2009, 10:28
Well, Khornate "cultists" usually just run forward screaming "blood for the blood god!" but if you're a more disciplined soldier like an imperial guardsman you will be able to refrain from such acts(for how long is the question) so that you can kill as much as possible for khorne.

Khorne Berzerkers don't NEED to wait, because they can take the fight to the enemy and WIN with that bloodlust.

AdmiralDick
26-01-2009, 11:50
Thanks Darkane, that clears it up a lot for me. i don't think i'll be fielding Helltalons or Hellblades (they rather smack of a unit made up by FW on a whim rather than something generated by the background), though i would consider using the rules for them in a Tzeentchen army as a Firelord or doomwing.


Isn't it somewhat weird to make Khornate Guard that fights ranged? Isn't Khorne all about manly close combat?

not particularly. these days the only units that get a look in are combat orientated Khorne Berzerkers and daemons, but that doesn't mean that ranged orientated versions would be any less Khornate. the descriptions of Khorne and his themes are rarely born out in full by the units that you can select in the game.

personally i was quite disappointed when they didn't redress this issue in the Codex: Chaos Daemons. i was fully expecting to see Bloodletters with short range, powerful crossbows and maybe even a ballista warmachine or two.


Khorne is war god, among things he's about are martial pride, disciplinary / honourable codes, and (on Epic scale) enormous firepower.

whilst i disagree about Khrone being about 'martial pride' and 'honour codes' (after all in nearly every description of Khorne since the first he is called an 'angry' and 'murderous' god and 'cares not from whence the blood flows'. heck one of his most favoured champions frequently slays his own men.) i totally agree that SM in general are prone to CC, but that doesn't mean that all of Khorne's disciples are.


Not if you read fluff from prior to the 3rd Ed. simplification.

i don't honestly think the 'fluff' has changed at all. i own all of the Chaos rules books (both fantasy and 40k) from RoC to the Warriors of Chaos book and Khorne is pretty much uniform throughout (Nurgle has changed a bit of late). the difference is not in the written background, but in how the background interacts with the game. the units and rules are simplifications of complex themes so that they don't treat on each others toes; if Khorne is all 'shooty' as well then what have NM and rubrics got going for them? and that is the chief way in which people interact with background. people know life is cheap in the IG because the units die quite quickly, not because the novels say so.

(which is why i will always side with the idea that different factions of the same army will always need different rules)

Gray Hunter
27-01-2009, 22:54
I must admit that my first response was "shooty Khorne? Nah!". I've been playing since second ed, so I do admit that my first associations with Khorne are Bezerkers and Bloodletters screaming into CC.

However, after more thought a Khornate Guard army totally makes sense. Khorne is all about hate and rage and trying to kill the enemy. Nobody ever said that you can't be just as full of hate and rage while trying to gun down the enemy with a heavy bolter as you can when you're trying to gut him with a chainaxe. I can just see crazed, bloodthirsty Guardsmen now, gripping their weapons with white knuckles and gritting their teeth in fury as they pump round after round into the enemy, wanting nothing more than to see the gore spray from them as they fall. Maybe I've been playing too much Fallout 3. Stupid Bloody Mess perk.

I digress. I would agree with the comment above about waiting for the new Guard Codex before making any compositional choices. Even then, I'd limit the Khornate theme with regard to army composition to seriously PO'd Ogryns (the new FW ones are awesome) and tooled up command squads who do their best impression of Bezerkers once the enemy breaches your lines.

Other than that, I'd hammer home the Khornate theme using conversions and a striking paint job. If you are thinking of using Cadian models, a light grey camo scheme would make a good blank canvas upon which to paint bright red/crimson Khorne symbols (and other assorted gore). The contrast would be very striking.

catbarf
27-01-2009, 23:24
Khorne's colors are, IIRC, red, black, and brass. You could make a good-looking Khornate army without resorting to bright red.

Eater of Small Things
27-01-2009, 23:26
I actually think the IA:6 Servants of Slaughter list does a good job of representing Khornate Guard. Without looking it up, there are only a few minor differences between the IA:5 renegades list and the IA:6 list. The latter gives you access to Berserker squads and their rhinos (or dreadclaws) as elites, an HQ that is like a slighter weaker version of a chaos lord, chaos raptors as fast attack (although you cannot mark them as khorne for some reason, which bugs me), and beastmen squads as troops. The beastmen are cool, but for their cost, don't expect them to stand up to orks in close-combat.

I also like the randomly generated leadership. Sometimes it gives you rock-hard troops.

All in all, i'd say it's a good fluffy list. As a fellow khorne player, I recommend you check it out.

Epicenter
28-01-2009, 00:15
how do the Ogryns differ from the traditional sort? the models obviously imply they don't have ripper guns but CCWs, but is there a more profound difference?


Most certainly.

I can't give you costs or stats, but the Renegade Ogryn Berserkers are costly (overcosted really), but more characterful and useful than IG Ogryn due to Combat Drugs and the fact they can actually take a Power Weapon.