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yohanes13
01-12-2005, 22:12
just wanted to open this thread to say i really love the new doctines system in ig codex but there are some that should have been made that wernt, also why havent they brought out any good new ones in chapter approved swamp fighters was cool but useless and abhumans would be fun but not realistic for most armies.
any sugestions on new doctrines for gw to do, i like the idea of one allowing units of individual human snipers like in old gaunt ghost rules and codex cattachans/cityfight.
also can anyone explain y a drop troop reg gets to deep strike its units for free whilst a light infantry unit such as the ghosts have to pay ten points for each squad?

Great_Destroyer
01-12-2005, 22:53
First i like te idea of being able to have just snipers or sniper squads.

And becausse they are being "droped" from planes so they can deep strike for free.

TitusAndronicus
01-12-2005, 22:55
there used to be a thread about tank riders becoming a doctrine. I'd like to point out how senseless that is. Tank riders GOT OFF the tank before ever a round was fired. They walked to the lines like most other infantry. There were spearhead units who took horrific casualties but this practice was stopped when it was realized that the infantry couldn't support thetanks from atop them. Bad idea, all in all.

Hlokk
01-12-2005, 23:13
Wern't they going to do Rhino's as a transport doctrine at one point?

TitusAndronicus
01-12-2005, 23:17
that would be sweet, long as they were a tad more than 50 points. Would make infantry too useful :-)

Lion El Jason
01-12-2005, 23:19
I seem to remember rumours of a Rhino docterine and a bolter docterine for use with the Tech guard in some adeptus mechanicus list...

colhodg
01-12-2005, 23:29
Uh, hate to be the one to point it out but there are some finer points of the ork and chaos codexes that may not be true to real life either...:D

There have been loads of doctrines from what i can tell but nowhere with them all together - a summary in WD or even a cheapy IG Regiments book with all the new docrines and some coversion ideas would be very cool - are you listening GW?!

You can take catachan snipers as allied elite option in a normal army but a doctrine would be nice.
A doctrine to represent engineer type force with a few more demo charges (not to many mind...), maybe better cover saves would be cool.
there are plenty of doctrines for elite forces so one that allowed you to take just conscripts as troops would be fun (tho not to paint...)
And even tho it narks some people i'd still like to see a Rough Rider based force with xeno mounts, I mean you see see them in star wars so why not?! A recon force with sentinels and Rough riders would be fun to play and convert.

Hlokk
01-12-2005, 23:50
I seem to remember rumours of a Rhino docterine and a bolter docterine for use with the Tech guard in some adeptus mechanicus list...

Please say it aint so, Guardsmen with bolters :eek:

I would like to see helguns as a guard weapon though (Without taking grenadiers) for an Ad-mech army. Possably with multilasers as a heavy weapon option :evilgrin:

I also remember seeing rumours regarding specific rules for xenos mounts (I know their in the swamp battlezone, but those are generic ones) like carnodons and grox.

NorthernMike
02-12-2005, 00:40
Yes no bolters. Hellguns would be really cool though.

I would also like to be able to take lone snipers. I thought maybe the sniper from the light infantry unit should be able to detach and "set up". Maybe people would take them then.

I always thought that the way droptroopers worked was wierd too. Since when to para troopers all land together in a circle. I think that for each unit DSing you should roll the dice and on a 1 they are lost. Or maybe they just scatter and have to spend a turn reforming. Other wise they just land and can be placed in a "loose" but normal way. That may be to powerful/good, so maybe they scatter on a 1-2-maybe 3. May have to actually add a point cost for it.

Telporting makes sense for the DS circle thing, but drop troopers never did to me.

I guess those are more just Doctrine adjustments...hmmm. So my useful new doctrine would be:
Artillery Support: Each unit may choose to give up the heavy weapon option and use the vox-com to call down fire (from artillery, planes, or whatever off board) on a target once per turn. Maybe something like s6 ap4 small blast. Roll to hit like a mortar. But If you have a master-vox then multiple units could create a "barrage" effect. Finally, a unit that uses the artillery option may not move that turn (for measurements and such) and my not benifit from the leadership down the vox line for that turn. If the Master vox barrage is used then no units benifit as all the lines are "busy".

I would love the above doctrine, or just give me back the old 2nd ed comm link, as it did the same thing, only it was like a battle cannon shot.

Ko Improbable
02-12-2005, 00:42
I also remember seeing rumours regarding specific rules for xenos mounts (I know their in the swamp battlezone, but those are generic ones) like carnodons and grox.

Those were in the US WD with the Creature Feature article. I haven't perused the PDF that's on the websites, but they may be in there.

I'd add the Rough Rider Company Doctrine (of one sort or another).

LostTemplar
02-12-2005, 00:49
Well... A minor adjustment to Grenadiers that allowed you to field a 4 men storm trooper squad with the officer (Slighty more expensive, would have the exact same gear as the base-line storm trooper has, or the Hell pistoll/ CCW combo), instead of the command platoon. Woudl make a bit more sense, for those of us with a knack for grenadiers.

Marikano
02-12-2005, 00:56
I'd like to see doctrines similar to Independent Commissars, but for priests and psykers.

Similar to the suggestion for Xenos mounts... Imperial Guard Bikers as a special Rough Rider variant.

Finally, and probably most controversially.... a doctrine for Squats! :cool:

Dodgy Ed
02-12-2005, 01:07
Yes, The squat doctrine doesn't even need to be 'squat' in name, would it be so hard to have a doctrine for High grav worlds, whereby you lose 1 point in intiative but gain 1 in toughness :p

Great_Destroyer
02-12-2005, 01:22
I guess those are more just Doctrine adjustments...hmmm. So my useful new doctrine would be:
Artillery Support: Each unit may choose to give up the heavy weapon option and use the vox-com to call down fire (from artillery, planes, or whatever off board) on a target once per turn. Maybe something like s6 ap4 small blast. Roll to hit like a mortar. But If you have a master-vox then multiple units could create a "barrage" effect. Finally, a unit that uses the artillery option may not move that turn (for measurements and such) and my not benifit from the leadership down the vox line for that turn. If the Master vox barrage is used then no units benifit as all the lines are "busy".

i love that idea with a passion!!! me'z shall trie that out for a mission with some of my friend.:evilgrin:

Kittah
02-12-2005, 02:09
I always thought that the way droptroopers worked was wierd too. Since when to para troopers all land together in a circle. I think that for each unit DSing you should roll the dice and on a 1 they are lost. Or maybe they just scatter and have to spend a turn reforming. Other wise they just land and can be placed in a "loose" but normal way. That may be to powerful/good, so maybe they scatter on a 1-2-maybe 3. May have to actually add a point cost for it.

Telporting makes sense for the DS circle thing, but drop troopers never did to me.

I think it fits fine - aside from the aforementioned points cost issue. The placement of the squads however seems fine by me. Drop troopers are usuaully assumed to have used Grav-chutes to drop from the air. While parachuting into a warzone isn't remotely accurate, I daresay grav-chutes are much, much moreso.

NorthernMike
02-12-2005, 02:36
Only, what is the cost would the cost be for the "HW" upgrade. 10 pts per unit, on top of needing a vox would be my suggestion. Might seem cheap, but it eats a doctrine choise as well.

Definitely let me know who it plays out Destroyer.

Ahhh, yes Kittah, the grav chute. Ya I guess that would be more accurate. I still wouldn't want to land direclt beside and touching all my buddies though, even if I was able to!

Easy E
02-12-2005, 04:43
A shotgun doctrine
Hellgun Doctrine
Rhino Doctrine
Rough Riders Army Doctrines
Stormtrooper Army Doctrines

All great ideas.

Agamemnon2
02-12-2005, 10:05
Better bloody Ogryns. Ogryns with Choppas. Ogryns with Fleet. Fearless Ogryns. Anything to better the anemic fat guys we have now.

Dravis
02-12-2005, 11:25
A doctine for fielding siege regiments would be cool, 2x heavy stubbers per squad, Rapiers and Thudd gun support weapons in heavy squads.

Then all they need to do is create stats for the Siegried and Ragnorok.

As for the Homo Sapiens Rotundus the Abhuman doctrine Slave Levies is what you want;The abilty to shrug of light hits, slow movement and shooting with heavy weapons on the move. Only thing left to do is VDR a land train.

Wolf Scout Ewan
02-12-2005, 11:53
Special items: Bolt Weapons
Replace lasgun or laspistol for bolt gun or bolt bistol. 2/1 pts per model.

Recon specialisation.
All infantry may infiltrate or scout for an additional points cost.

Engineers training
May include a standard infantry platoon as elites, each squad allows the imp guard player to play one 12" line of sandbags or one reinforced position. Each squad costs an additional 20 points.

vexa
02-12-2005, 12:11
Well we can already infiltrate, light infantry.

And no no for bolters. Giving normal guardsmen decent weapons would kill the whole idea of the army. You cannot separate imperial guard and lasguns. Hellguns would propably be okay though.

The artillery doctrine sounds like a good idea, and the doctrine book, if they make it well. And let us keep the basilisks out of the board aswell for griffons. What kind of idiot would keep a long range gun in the front line.

boogle
02-12-2005, 13:00
I believe the Rhino and Shotgun Doctrines unfortunately disappeared into the Witchunter Codex

I would like to see:

Regimental Doctrine: Rough Rider Companies (even if its just 'pay x pts per model to have a horse')

Regimental Doctrine: Storm Trooper Companies (proper Storm Trooper companies, not Grenadiers + Storm Troopers + Carapaced Guardsman

Regimental Doctrine: Assault Weapons Doctrine; - allows any Infantry squad to have a second Assault Weapon in exchange for their Heavy Weapon

Independant Psykers

Independant Priests

Independant Sniper Teams (these work like the Catachan Snipers, but are 2 man rather than single person)

If were were to get the Shotgun and Rhino Doctrines, then i would like to see:
Special Weapons and Equipment: Shock Maul and Supression shield - Shock Maul counts as a CCW with the Rending Ability (to represent the different setings), the Supression Shield (counts as and Additional CCW but adds +1 to the Save of the model, i would also like to play around witht he idea of shield walls but that might be taking things a little bit too far)

Restricted Troops: Attack Dogs (WS3 BS0 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 LD5 Sv-, 8 Pts a model, 5-15 in pack, must have an IG model as handler, may upgrade to Cyber hounds for 3-5 pts a model, they then gain a 6+ bionics save, +1T and +1I)

Regimental Doctrine: Guerillas: any squad that remains still within a peice of terrain allows that terrain to be classed as booby trapped, any enemy unit entering the terrain takes an 2D6 S3 AP- hits (points cost to be decided)

Skills and Drills: Slick Crew (applies to Heavy Weapons Squads and platoons only), allows each heavy weapon to fire twice or split fire between squads (points to be decided)

Regimental Doctrine: Cityfighters: squads may be between 5 and 20 models strong, may add +2 to their cover save within buildings, may spilt off their Heavy weapon team, team is classed as below 50% strength and may not move after deployment, also if sniper teams are taken to take Deathworld Toxins (as per the Cityfight Codex)

Independant Officers: Allows the Officer to be bought as a single Character for x points, may then join any squad they wish

Ogryn Body Guards, allows an Ogryn Body Guard to be bough for Each Officer for x points, they follw the same bodyguard rules as Jarran Kell (or Nork Deddog if you like))

TomKamakazi
02-12-2005, 13:14
If were were to get the Shotgun and Rhino Doctrines, then i would like to see:
Special Weapons and Equipment: Shock Maul and Supression shield - Shock Maul counts as a CCW with the Rending Ability (to represent the different setings), the Supression Shield (counts as and Additional CCW but adds +1 to the Save of the model



You've got some really nice ideas there, but rending guardsmen... *sudder* that would be unstoppable, especially if it were combined with conscripts... thousands upon thousands of conscripts.

I'd like to see a "Forge equiped" doctrine. The regiment comes from, or was equiped by, a forge world and can have plasma cannons in heavy weapon teams and perhaps lascannons on chimeras or access to preditors something like that.

boogle
02-12-2005, 13:19
You've got some really nice ideas there, but rending guardsmen... *sudder* that would be unstoppable, especially if it were combined with conscripts... thousands upon thousands of conscripts.

I'd like to see a "Forge equiped" doctrine. The regiment comes from, or was equiped by, a forge world and can have plasma cannons in heavy weapon teams and perhaps lascannons on chimeras or access to preditors something like that.
It would be Guard Infantry only,

I would probably do a famous Regiment: Adeptus Arbites:
Preferred Special Weapon Grenade Launcher
Preferred Heavy Weapon : Heavy Bolter

for their Doctrienes, they woudl get:
Carapace Armour
Rhinos
Shotguns
Shock Maul and Supression Shield
Independant Pskyers (Psy Judges)
Iron Discipline
Assault Weapon Doctrine

Ko Improbable
02-12-2005, 13:34
Special Weapons and Equipment: Shock Maul and Supression shield - Shock Maul counts as a CCW with the Rending Ability (to represent the different setings), the Supression Shield (counts as and Additional CCW but adds +1 to the Save of the model, i would also like to play around witht he idea of shield walls but that might be taking things a little bit too far)

Oh, the shield wall would be easy if you've got the Supression Shield in there.
The Supression shield normally improves the save in the assault phase. In addition, if all models in the unit are in base-to-base contact (like with Close Order Drill), then they may also benefit from the improved save in the shooting phase.

The ability to fire a heavy weapon twice a turn is a little much, IMO, especially if you allow the Doctrine to stack with Sharpshooters. Splitting fire would be nice, though.

d4m0s4n
02-12-2005, 13:48
I'd like to see a Penal troops doctrine. Strapped with explosives these troops are offered a last chance at redemption (blah, blah, blah).

Basically they fight like regular Guard but if they fail an assault LD roll they explode instead of fallback. Say a S3 blast template centered on each fig. Or even a S2.

Eisenhorn
02-12-2005, 14:08
what about night fighting i would like to have somthing like this:

if the night mission has the night fight rule the modells with night fight doctrine may ifiltrat and they have re-roll on how far they can see.

fanatic doctrine (suicide bombers anyone)

0-1 chocise a sqaud of fannatics with demolition charges that blows up in assult strikes last and then booom.

lascarbine doctrine:

the regiment has been equiped with lascarbines s3 ap- assult 2 18' for 2+ pr model

tecnikal ( jeep with stubber/heavy bolter)

the regiment are useing fast but dangerus transports they maybey added for 50+ pr squad
(fast, opentopped, heavy stubber)

neko
02-12-2005, 14:15
I'd like to see a Penal troops doctrine. Strapped with explosives these troops are offered a last chance at redemption (blah, blah, blah).

Basically they fight like regular Guard but if they fail an assault LD roll they explode instead of fallback. Say a S3 blast template centered on each fig. Or even a S2.
I'd probably keep them closer to the existing fluff. The units of penal troops could be treated as conscripts with explosive collars (which basically allows summary execution by remote control), whilst the suicide bombers come as individual models (treat as an IC with a satchel charge centred on the bomber?)

d4m0s4n
02-12-2005, 14:42
I'd probably keep them closer to the existing fluff...

The issue I have with this is that there are penal troops who are veterans as well.

I'd even go so far as to give them a stat bonus (say a LD + 1) to measure their added resolve to make it out alive.

NakedFisherman
02-12-2005, 14:49
The issue I have with this is that there are penal troops who are veterans as well.

I'd even go so far as to give them a stat bonus (say a LD + 1) to measure their added resolve to make it out alive.

Doesn't everu guardsman want to make it out alive?

I think higher leadership represents spitting at the odds and the resolve to die standing.

d4m0s4n
02-12-2005, 15:06
Doesn't everu guardsman want to make it out alive?

I think higher leadership represents spitting at the odds and the resolve to die standing.

A *regular* guardsmen has all sorts of options in the field to make it look like he's giving it a good go.

Penal troops on the other hand KNOW they are going to either die facing the enemy or when the Commisar/Platoon leader pushes the big red button.

Running away means dieing. Fighting, and possibly defeating the enemy, means living another day.

Wiseman
02-12-2005, 15:43
id always liked to see a doctrine that allows field medics in every squad

Wolf Scout Ewan
02-12-2005, 16:24
id always liked to see a doctrine that allows field medics in every squad

Educated:
Any infantry squad may take a medic as per usual restrictions and points cost.

Additionally may increase the leadership of any squad/command etc by 1 point for 10/15 points per squad/officer.

Flame Boy
02-12-2005, 18:14
It would be interesting if they had doctrines that introduced some more exotic grenade launcher/ missile launcher/ mortar ammunition, like melta missles, rad grenades and so on... I'm sure there could be an ammunition type that would be interesting for a doctrine. (and no, I don't mean Vortex grenades :p )

StrainX
02-12-2005, 19:11
We need something that allows for the equivalent of a Humvee in the IG. Rough riders ? Bah, useless unit.

d4m0s4n
02-12-2005, 19:14
We need something that allows for the equivalent of a Humvee in the IG. Rough riders ? Bah, useless unit.

Something for the command squads to ride in other than their standard battle taxi?

That would be pretty cool. A bunch of lightweight fast jeeps would be fun...and suicidal.

StrainX
02-12-2005, 19:25
Suicidal tends to describe most units in the IG when used alone. I could imagine a 10/10/10 vehicle, or infantry unit designed like Space Marine Attack bike or such, but with 5 wounds and 4+ save, and squadron of 3 vehicles. 1 driver, 3 Lasguns troopers, 1 turret gunner, with the heavy weapon turret ranging from HB, HS, SB, to AC, or even Missile Launcher.

boogle
02-12-2005, 19:32
The issue I have with this is that there are penal troops who are veterans as well.

I'd even go so far as to give them a stat bonus (say a LD + 1) to measure their added resolve to make it out alive.
there are veteran Penal Troopers, they are called the Last Chancers

boogle
02-12-2005, 19:35
Crazed (may only be taken by Veterans), once the 1st wound is taken off the unit, the rest of the unit double their S and I and become fearless

Great_Destroyer
03-12-2005, 00:09
Got done with that game using the boombardment "rule" using the vox caster, worked really well not too strong not to bad either untill my master-vox got blasted with missles, i HATE path finders!!!.

Grumnir
03-12-2005, 00:20
Have always been a fan of allowing medics within squads.

Not a useful doctrine game wise (you rarely get a save anyway!) but good fun which should be the aim of extra doctrines as opposed to effectiveness.

boogle
03-12-2005, 00:26
having thought a bit more, i would like to see a Sentinel Doctrine allowing More Sentinels

Chaos and Evil
03-12-2005, 00:54
having thought a bit more, i would like to see a Sentinel Doctrine allowing More Sentinels

I was recently thrashing out an experimental doctrine with someone over at another site which would allow him to take Sentinels (Including the ForgeWorld variant Sentinels) in Troops Slots... daft army of 30 Sentinels (For 1200 pts) ahoy!

boogle
03-12-2005, 00:55
woot woot, (BTW, care to allow me to join in or is it an exclusive club?)

mfv
03-12-2005, 06:43
I'd like to see a Penal troops doctrine. Strapped with explosives these troops are offered a last chance at redemption
Back in I don`t know what ED they used to have this,figs and all.
I think they were unarmed just bombs and a comissar would herd
them into the enemy.
PS for all you bolter haters out thair,my group uses them as a
special w. choice 5pts:p

TitusAndronicus
03-12-2005, 07:18
Um... Couldn't you just make em last chancers?

f2k
03-12-2005, 08:07
I would like to see a doctrine allowing me to ally with Marines.

Regimental organisation: Warriors of Ultramar.

Some regiments, most notably those of the Ultramar sector, are renowned for their close cooperation with the local Marine Chapters.

May select the following units from Codex: Space Marines as allies:

0 – 1 Hq
0 – 1 Elite
0 – 2 Troop
0 – 1 Fast Attack

No Marine character / squad may use the Ld of the Guard Hqs.

If this doctrine is taken, Ogryns and Haflings may not be used.

geoffkemp
03-12-2005, 08:53
What about allowing a guard squad to take bolters as a special wepaon ??? say at 5 or 6 pts ??

A Rhino doctrine would be cool, as would a rough rider company.

What about a "maritme foot" doctrine ?? allowing the guard to treat water terrain features as regular terrain ??

A for a Hummvee type tank, what about the salamander ???

mnglking
03-12-2005, 10:44
I always liked the idea of a docterine that would help the guard with close combat. Something where if they are taking more casualties than they are causing, then a commissar can direct units, including vehicles within 6-12" to shoot into the combat. 50-50 the hits out or something simple like that (might end up with too many complaints if you tried to do a majority armor thing). You never know, it might be fun.

boogle
03-12-2005, 11:10
i don't think that even the most cruel commissar would order his units to fire on their own troops (it just doesn't feel right within the game context)

Sir_Turalyon
03-12-2005, 11:58
Boogle: soviet comissars during WW2 did it all the time, literally - NKVD squads were deployed behind assulting soldiers and shooting anyone trying to fall back. But I agree, there is no point in shooting these soldiers who are willing to fight. But making comissars join fire support squads instead of command squads, and making these squads able to shoot any own units that fall back, making guard units fearless till next guard shooting phase would be fun addition to penal army.

f2k, it's very interesting idea, althrough I would cut it a bit:

1. No marine HQ. SM characters are not leading guard regiments, thay're busy leading full marine armies. OTOH, I would count elites out of it as well, for same reason. I know it's not Inquisition and LatD alliance work, but inducted guard/inquisition forces and chaos/latd are patrs of the same force. To SM, guard are just allies.

2. I would take out not only ogryns and ratlings, but most other doctrines as well. Perhaps even "this doctrine cannot be combined with any other doctrines except Skills and Drills branch and warrior weapons. Regiments used to cooperate with Space Marines are not independent enough to specialise in drop attacks, use of exotic equipment or enlisting exotic units like stormtroopers; they instead specialise in being supporting cannon fodder. Warrior weapons are ok, as Marines are notorious feral-worlders lovers, as are unusual organisations from skills and drills (most of them reflect world from which regiment came), but more sophisticated doctrines ahve little chance of developing.

neko
03-12-2005, 12:03
A doctrine that upgrades the Rough Riders to be riding bikes could be fun.

boogle
03-12-2005, 13:12
Boogle: soviet comissars during WW2 did it all the time, literally - NKVD squads were deployed behind assulting soldiers and shooting anyone trying to fall back. But I agree, there is no point in shooting these soldiers who are willing to fight. But making comissars join fire support squads instead of command squads, and making these squads able to shoot any own units that fall back, making guard units fearless till next guard shooting phase would be fun addition to penal army..
I just knew someone would pull out historical examples, i don't care about historical examples, i'm well aware of what the Cimmissars did in WW2, it just doesn't feel right in the context of the game to be firing into your own units

BTW i like that idea, it would seem to fit in better with the game mechanic

Great_Destroyer
03-12-2005, 13:35
I would like to use the ambuse and traps liek te catachans but without having to use the deathworld army, so instead my cadains.
That could be fun!:evilgrin:

boogle
03-12-2005, 15:11
something similar to my Guerillas doctrine then?

mfv
03-12-2005, 16:56
The jungle fighter doct. should be more like the xenos fighter doct.
in that you should be able to pick an environment and have your
troops spec. in it.
And someone said it earlyer what about jeeps and such?
I use converted Ork buggies as sentinels,but the earlyer idea of a 10
all around open top vehicle is nice:D

boogle
03-12-2005, 17:29
mfv: i don't quite get what you mean

f2k
03-12-2005, 18:11
1. No marine HQ. SM characters are not leading guard regiments, thay're busy leading full marine armies. OTOH, I would count elites out of it as well, for same reason. I know it's not Inquisition and LatD alliance work, but inducted guard/inquisition forces and chaos/latd are patrs of the same force. To SM, guard are just allies.

Hmm, I guess you’ve got a point. What I’m trying to do, is to allow a situation where local Marine forces have effectively taken control over the IG regiments in the area.
For example, I’d imagine that a Ultramarine Captain, or even a sergeant for that matter, would not hesitate to take control over the Ultramar PDF if need be. And woe to the IG officer who objects…

As for elites, I don’t see why they should not be used. Did the Ultramar PDF not fight alongside the Ultra Marines 1. Company during the battle for the Macragge?



2. I would take out not only ogryns and ratlings, but most other doctrines as well. Perhaps even "this doctrine cannot be combined with any other doctrines except Skills and Drills branch and warrior weapons. Regiments used to cooperate with Space Marines are not independent enough to specialise in drop attacks, use of exotic equipment or enlisting exotic units like stormtroopers; they instead specialise in being supporting cannon fodder. Warrior weapons are ok, as Marines are notorious feral-worlders lovers, as are unusual organisations from skills and drills (most of them reflect world from which regiment came), but more sophisticated doctrines ahve little chance of developing.

I don’t think that any regiment would work together with Marines on a permanent basis. Rather, they will be forced under temporary Marine control whenever they Marines need a few more men to fight and die for the Emperor.

I disallowed abhumans for the simple reason that most Marines would execute them on sight.


Ok, revised version of the rule:

Regimental organisation: Warriors of Ultramar.

Some regiments, most notably those of the Ultramar sector, are renowned for their close cooperation with the local Marine Chapters.

May select the following units from Codex: Space Marines as allies:

0 – 1 Hq
0 – 1 Elite
0 – 2 Troop
0 – 1 Fast Attack

No Marine character / squad may use the Ld of the Guard Hqs, nor may they benefit from a banner carried by a Guard Hq.

No IG Hq is allowed, save for the lieutenant who leads each platoon.

Any IG unit withing 6” of a Marine unit may use that units Ld.

Special rule: Cowards!
If a IG unit within 6” of a Marine units fails a Ld roll and breaks, the Marines will immediately execute the officer / sergeant leading that unit (in the same way as a Commissar would). Take anther Ld test, if the squad passes this time, nothing further happens – the squad fights on with renewed energy. If it fails however, the marines execute every member of the cowardly squad. The squad is removed from play and, for all intents and purposes, counts as destroyed.

If this doctrine is taken, Ogryns and Haflings may not be used.

ferrus
03-12-2005, 18:21
I'd probably keep them closer to the existing fluff. The units of penal troops could be treated as conscripts with explosive collars (which basically allows summary execution by remote control), whilst the suicide bombers come as individual models (treat as an IC with a satchel charge centred on the bomber?)
Once they may have done that but in the present political climate I'm not sure GW has the balls to do suicide bomber models haha

Agamemnon2
03-12-2005, 18:30
I disallowed abhumans for the simple reason that most Marines would execute them on sight.


I don't think that's quite true according to fluff. After all, they are forced to tolerate Navigators too, and those guys are even more alien than a ratling ever could. They will not want anything to do with such creatures, but somehow I don't see them massacring Ogryn units that have already been "cleared" as acceptable mutants by the Ministorium and the Guard itself.

Jo Bennett
03-12-2005, 21:13
I think having marine allies is potentially unbalancing. If you want to do it, I think it should be 1 tactical squad joining an IG army as an Elites choice. Gives you the flavour, but also makes clear just how rare marines are in relation to your PDF fellas.

yohanes13
03-12-2005, 21:36
hey guys thanks for all the input i definatly think a doctines book would rock and gw could make money fleshing it out with loads of units and thier fluff like index astartes, hang on a min they could do index guard as a wd article with a diif reg and doctrines weekly cool. anyway is there any way to get this idea to the games devlopers like oif we did a petition or something?

some of my favourite ideas i read where=

Independant Officers= that would be awesome theres so much fluff where this happens
Ogryn Body Guards=excelent idea would be really fun
independant snipers=also cool
medics in every squad=unusual but a precident set by sm traits for unit based apothecaries
Sentinel Doctrine=this would look awesome but i just dont think its viable plus youd have to be loaded.


ps any ideas what would happen to the regiments with their listed doctrines in the back of ig codex if a book was brought out because some of those units should already have independant snipers and officers
"cough" gaunts ghosts "cough"

a ambiguos jungle fighter

boogle
04-12-2005, 00:17
they would just be revised slightly

Pendragon
04-12-2005, 14:37
There's been a bunch of suggestions I really like here. Let me sum up:

Shotguns/lascarbines: No need to really make a difference. They could use the same statline, like lasguns and autoguns.

Medics in squads: My favourite so far. Love it. Great idea.

Bolters: No, no, no, no, NO!

Storm trooper/Grenadier companies/HQ's: Should've been in the 'dex from the start.

Dedicated HQ Transports: Always bugged me that the HQ Salamander couldn't transport a command squad. An armoured, armed hummer-like vehicle seems like a good choice.

And a few ideas of my own:

Trucks: Cheap, inexpensive deathtrap transports. Opentopped, AV9 or something like that. And absolutely not fast.

Heavy weapon options: Any kind of doctrine that'll let you field heavy stubbers, multilasers, stormbolters and perhaps even plasma cannons as weapon teams.

/Joel

boogle
04-12-2005, 14:59
i like the Salamander Idea, i would also like to extend it to a remenent squad from a platton being aloowed to ride in a Salamander Scout Vehicle

Chaos and Evil
04-12-2005, 16:43
Here's the latest version of my extra Sentinels doctrine I've been working on:

***SENTINEL EXPERTS*** V4.0

This doctrine allows:

- Sentinel Squadrons to be taken as Troops choices.

- Commissars can be mounted in Sentinels for 40pts + the cost of Sentinel. (May be combined with the independant Commissars doctrine)

- Psykers can be mounted in Sentienels for 12pts + the cost of Sentinel. (Must take Sanctioned Psykers doctrine to use this unit)

- Priests can be mounted in Sentinels for 40pts + the cost of Sentinel. Sentinel squadrons with attached priests cannot move and shoot! (Must take Priests doctrine to use this unit)

- Techpriests cannot be mounted in Sentinels, and their 0-1 restriction is lifted. (Must take the TechPriest Enginseers doctrine to use this unit)



New unit choice:

HQ choice - Sentinel Command Squad.
Cost: 55 points + Cost of Sentinels.
Unit consists of 1 Command Sentinel & 2 Sentinels.
The Command Sentinel's driver has the stats & special abilities of a Senior Officer, including the Inititive & Attacks values.
May be upgraded to Heroic Senior Officer for +15 points.
1 Sentinel may be given a Sentinel Vox, which can be upgraded to Master status for +20 points.


New equipment option:

Sentinel Vox - May only be fitted to Sentinels.
Provides all the usual benefits of Vox communications.
Ordinarily this would not be particularly useful since Sentinels don't have to take combat break tests, but when given to a HQ Sentinel Squad it allows passing the Senior Officer's Ld. down to any infantry units in the army.


The following units can now be taken as troops choices:

- Standard IG Codex Sentinels.

- ForgeWorld Elysian pattern Drop Sentinels.

- ForgeWorld Support Sentinels. (Only up to one quater of the total number of Sentinel Squadrons in the army may be Support Sentinel Squadrons.)

- ForgeWorld Heavy Lifter Sentinels.


This doctrine may not be combined with Doctrine: Warrior Weapons.


====

Rationale:

Doesn't everyone want to see armies of dozens of Sentinels?!

Plus it provides for some interesting new abilities by mounting advisors in Sentinels...
Want to make your psyker a bit more surviable? Mount him in a Sentinel!

Want to make your Powerlifter Sentinels into furious fighting fanatics? Attach a priest to their Squadron and let them fly!

====

Any thoughts?

Codsticker
04-12-2005, 17:04
Alternate Organisation:Tank Support
For every Infantry Platoon present, a Leman Russ Demolisher may be taken as a Troops choice. If this doctrine is taken then Demolishers may not be chosen as a Heavy Support choice.

TWB
04-12-2005, 19:26
Never fear TWB is here.

Recon Unit:The unit is expert at ranging forward into enemy territory. leaving heavy support behind they are optimised for rapid deployment and advance. The army Cannot be accompanied by any Tank (Leman Russ, Demolisher, Basilisk, Hellhound and Chimera) they may take Sentinels or Rough Riders as Heavy support as well as Fast attack Options though.

Penal Legions.
Penal Legion: The Regiment is part of one of the Penal legions, it is either comprised of individual criminals who have been sentenced to penitent service or an entire regiment sentenced to the penal legions for some failure of duty or spirit.
This Doctrine allows you to take any other Doctrine from the Penal Legion list.
Penal legions can never be Drop Troops, Mechanized (this is generally thought too expensive for what is largely considered to be a disposable formation) or Grenadiers nor may they be accompanied by storm troopers, penal formations are more likely to be use to create a diversion for storm troopers than to fight alongside them.

Arbites Overseers. Although often released into the custody of the Imperial Guard, the Penal Legions are governed by the Adeptus Arbirtes, sometimes it will be required that the overseers guide their charges into battle to help them atone for their crimes against the Imperium. The Command Squad of the Command platoon is upgraded to an arbites overseer squad at a cost of 30 points. The officer’s stats are not affected (but he must be given carapace armour) but each of his bodyguards is upgraded to arbitrator
Arbitrator Ws Bs S T W I A Ld Sv+
3 4 3 3 1 3 1 8 4+
Arbitrators are armed with shotguns, one can be armed with a grenade launcher or a heavy stubber for 5 points. Any number of arbites may swap their shotgun for a bolter at 1 point each, or a suppression shield and power maul (the power maul counts as a power weapon and the suppression shield confers a 4+ inv save and counts as an additional combat weapon) for 10 points each.
The officer may take a suppression shield at 20 points and may buy up to 4 cyber mastiffs at 10 points each. The Cyber mastiffs are followers and will be removed from the table if their ‘owner’ is removed.
Cyber mastiff Ws Bs S T W I A Ld Sv+
3 3 3 3 1 3 1 5 4+

Individual Command squads can be upgraded to be arbites overseers. No overseer squad may take benefit from any other Doctrine either directly or indirectly. Commissars are not included in an Arbites Overseer controlled army.
Arbites Overseer squads may be mounted in a Chimera as per Command squads, they may opt to mount up in Rhino’s instead, if this option is taken any Overseer squad must choose a rhino if they wish to be mounted.
A force must have the Penal Legion Doctrine to gain Access to this Doctrine
30 points per unit.


Special equipment: Frenzon Dispensers: The regiment has been fitted with frenzon injectors, these mainline noxious performance enhancing drugs into the system, whilst these are very effective the subject will loose any real cognitive power and become little more than frothing maniacs with no concern for self preservation, although in the penal legions this is not considered a problem. The injectors are activated when the unit charges, all models in the unit gain the Furious Charge ability, however, the unit will automatically fail any initiative test to break from combat and be wiped out.
A force must have the Penal Legion Doctrine to gain Access to this Doctrine
10 points per unit.

Special equipment: Explosive Collars: The troops in this regiment have been fitted with explosive collars, these devices are designed to keep discipline within the ranks in the simplest way, step out of line and you die. If the unit fails a Ld based test (morale, pinning etc) one member’s collar will detonate (obviously killing him, remove the model as a casualty) and the squad will automatically pass the failed test as the rest of the squad is reminded that there is no escape.
A force must have the Penal Legion Doctrine to gain Access to this Doctrine. May not be combined with frenzon dispensers (as the control mechanism for both interfere with one another).
10 points per unit.

Skills and Drills - Redeemed Sinners: Penal Servitude is usually regarded as a life, some would say death, sentence. Within the number of the Penal troopers there are a few are willing to become human bombers, that in death they may serve the emperor as they had failed to serve him in life. Once an individual decides to take this option he will be absolved of his sins for to volunteer is to make the ultimate sacrifice for the Emperor.
0-5 Redeemed Sinners can be bought as an elites option at a cost of 25 points each, they have the statistics of a standard guardsman and carry a Laspistol and Close combat weapon and a Bomb Harness, they cannot be upgraded in any way (they can not take ANY additional upgrades allowed or required by other Doctrines). Redeemed sinners are seeking death to absolve them of their sins, the terrors of war are nothing to them, they are independent characters who cannot join other units, they are also fearless.
The bomb harness is detonated in the assault phase in usual Initiative order if the wearer is slain before he gets to activate the bomb roll a D6 on the roll of a 6 it’s activated, if /when the wearer gets to activate the harness roll a D6 on a roll of 2+ it’s successfully activated, on the roll of a one the Redeemed Sinner has received the Compassion of the Emperor, the harness is a dummy, he will fight on (and quite probably die) as normal from then on. Obviously Redeemed sinners may never count towards victory conditions and may never claim table quarters.
A force must have the Penal Legion Doctrine to gain Access to this Doctrine.
The Bomb Harness is to all intents and purposes a Demmo Charge that is detonated by the wearer place the template centred on any model that is in base to base contact with the model.

boogle
04-12-2005, 20:23
Chaos and Evil: i would allow the Drop Sentinels to be taken as Fast Attack only, and the Support Sentinels as Heavy Support (which is what i want to do in my Elysian Army List), with the 0-1 limit removed

TWB, some nice stuff there, why don;t we come together offlien (those that want to and work on some fo this stuff and then if they work out really well, submit them to WD)

Anyone interested please PM me

Hlokk
04-12-2005, 22:13
I'd like to see something like:

Dispursed formation:

Each squad in a platoon may form in the same way as a remnants squad, except that the squad can take a heavy weapon for +5 points on top of the normal cost.

It would allow you to have 6-8 man IG squads, which I think lends itself better to light infantry and spec-ops themed forces

colhodg
04-12-2005, 22:44
See this is why you have a guard army - instead of sitting around whinging about weapon stats and broken codex's you get the benefit of a well balanced codex that is easy to develop your own rules for, and lo and behold you go on a forum and some people have even done it all for you...

Regimental doctrine: Warhammer 2k
Planetary defence force on a comparatively low tech system - plasma and melta weapons unavailable but allows the use of two extra doctrine points (so this one and 6 more) to represent extra training/equipment to compensate.

Regimental doctrine: Purity in Faith
Allows the player one re-roll per game for every doctrine slot he does not use.

Doctrine: Heavy Artillery
May purchase 0-1 preliminary bombardment as per the rulebook for 50pts as a heavy support slot. This is conducted in addition to any preliminary bombardments specified by the mission.

Barbarossa
05-12-2005, 14:44
I'd like to see a doctrine that allows to give 'Without numbers' to conscript squads for +2 points per model.

boogle
12-12-2005, 21:58
I have started a thread on playtesting some of these doctrines in the rules development forum: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18921

Jedi152
13-12-2005, 08:53
Not really a missed doctrine, but i think Light Infantry squads should be allowed to take 1 man heavy stubbers, to fit in with a squad support light MG role.

Just a thought...

Helicon_One
13-12-2005, 15:30
See, TWB has the same idea as me of what the doctrine system should have been - a more fundamental reworking of the standard list rather than a bunch of minor tweaks. Anyone who remembers the Elysian Drop Troops list from 3rd Ed knows the sort of thing I mean too.

Tim

MacVurrich
13-12-2005, 15:33
I like to see the Rough Rider doc,
I fondly remember commissar on Horses :)

TWB
13-12-2005, 15:48
See, TWB has the same idea as me of what the doctrine system should have been - a more fundamental reworking of the standard list rather than a bunch of minor tweaks. Anyone who remembers the Elysian Drop Troops list from 3rd Ed knows the sort of thing I mean too.

Tim

I'm sorry if you got this impression, I like the doctrines, admittedly I can think of a whole load of cool ideas for new ones, but I'm happy with the ones we have.
The Ellysian list was bad, it required you to reference the IG and DWvet armies. I for one was never convinced that the Ellysians should be exclusively armed with shot guns. It seems to have escaped the notice of a lot of people that those lists were released in part, to playtest the doctrines.

Ellysians can easily be represented by using the doctrines we have.

boogle
13-12-2005, 15:56
or better yet the IA version, btw, is anyone interested in working with me on playtesting some of these doctrines?

Helicon_One
13-12-2005, 23:27
I'm sorry if you got this impression, I like the doctrines, admittedly I can think of a whole load of cool ideas for new ones, but I'm happy with the ones we have.

Your Penal Legion Doctrine suggestion was pretty extensive though, you must admit, compared to many of the existing ones which are summed up in a single sentence.

Actually, I've revised my opinion somewhat in the other thread in Rules Development, I'd like to see a mixture of extensive revisions and slight tweaks (or 'major' and 'minor' doctrines, if you prefer).


The Ellysian list was bad, it required you to reference the IG and DWvet armies. I for one was never convinced that the Ellysians should be exclusively armed with shot guns. It seems to have escaped the notice of a lot of people that those lists were released in part, to playtest the doctrines.

Ellysians can easily be represented by using the doctrines we have.

Certainly the execution of the original Elysian list had its problems, but was far more interesting as a concept than the current "all your squads can deepstrike if the mission allows".

Tim