PDA

View Full Version : Please Advice



DeathlessDraich
27-01-2009, 08:58
I have almost completed my book on Fantasy tactics - about 200 pages long with lots of diagrams. GW and Black library have shown no interest in publishing.

So, I need some advice. Advice please without cynicism.
:)
1) Is Fantasy ready for a book on Warhammer tactics?

2) Other than the Black library, is there any way of publishing it?

3) Shall I abandon all attempts at publishing it and simply make it available online i.e. here at Warseer.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions.

Condottiere
27-01-2009, 09:14
Since this seems important to you, I'll try to answer seriously:

1. People are always looking for advice on tactics; consider how many books are published on chess.

2. Getting people to pay for advice in this age of inter-connectivity is another matter; you probably will have to approach GW since the chances are it infringes on their IP, unless you altered everything to generic terms. If you are able to generate income from this work, they'll want a cut as well, otherwise I would have suggested a pdf editor, a download site and a donative income model.

3. Then there's that option; it depends on how much you value your work and how much effort you put into it. I was privileged as part of another project to get a copy of a finished version of a Tilea fan created supplement which hasn't been released yet, so it would also depend on your sentiments at this moment. Once released in the wild, you cannot recapture it.

Jaxoo
27-01-2009, 09:14
Nice work there. Must have taken alot of time.

To answer your first question, I think that because Warhammer is updated fairly frequently with new rules and army books, a dedicated book of tactics might not really be useful for very long. Sure, some tactics will carry on for a few editions, but I think a more viable option is what GW do already, with articles every so often in White Dwarf. Not sure if this is the problem with them not wishing to publish it, but its the problem that stands out to me straight away.

Not sure about your other questions, I dont know too much about publishing or publishers, but considering GW don't seem to have any interest it could be tricky doing this properly, so putting it on the internet seems might be your best option, though admittedly you won't get any money for it, it will probably be viewed by a fair few people, and appreciated too.

Ward.
27-01-2009, 09:16
Upload it to your own site, make use of it as far as attracting site/ ADD hits is concerned.

DeathlessDraich
27-01-2009, 13:05
Thanks for the advice so far which has been positive and very helpful.

1) Money is secondary and of very little importance in this case. I don't intend to make a profit from this venture. I would prefer to have a hardcopy in book form of course and will probably print and bind a few for myself.

2) I don't have a website and Warseer seems a good place as any to place my book online. Maybe I should have a poll to see whether there is a demand for it here?
Or Is there a web designer out there willing to take this on, provided readers can pay for the website cost? :D

3) Yes I like the idea of donations. It would certainly pay for the costs of maintaining the book online.

4) I tried WD as well and ran into a brick wall. WD articles on tactics seem too superficial to me and I certainly don't find them of any use but then again I can't say I'm not biased in this matter. :p

Godfiend
27-01-2009, 13:55
As has been said, Warhammer updates a lot, so I'd hope your book focuses a lot more on general use of various unit types (fast cavalry, for example).

I'm not surprised that no one will publish it, shame as that is. You can put any tactics information online as long as you don't give out full stat blocks and any points values for units. You could release it yourself as a pdf that people can download, to avoid things being lost in the infernal depths of a forum.

Also, there are some fanmade E-zines that would love to have contributions like yours. (PM me for more info :D)

McMullet
27-01-2009, 13:59
I would definitely be interested in reading this, but I don't think I (or many other people) would be likely to pay for a hard copy of something like that - or rather, the amount you could charge and the number you'd sell would mean you'd probably make a loss. Still, you could get the document printed and bound cheaply without a publisher for maybe 15-20 a copy (less if you can get to a University bindery, which would be dirt cheap).

Putting it online would be much better - I recommend asking nick if he'll host it here. He could probably help out with setting up a paypal donations thing too (of course it would be fair to split that with the site if they're hosting it for you).

You could even set up what you have now as a wiki so that it could easily be updated as armies/rules change.

DeathlessDraich
27-01-2009, 14:12
Wow! More good advice. Thank you.


As has been said, Warhammer updates a lot, so I'd hope your book focuses a lot more on general use of various unit types (fast cavalry, for example).

Also, there are some fanmade E-zines that would love to have contributions like yours. (PM me for more info :D)

1) The book was started just before High Elves and I would say 90% of it was still relevant when VC, Daemons, WOC emerged.
The other 5% I've updated as soon as these books emerge.
At present, I use the Rumours thread to update any references to Lizards.

2) Most of the tactics are for *all* armies and will be relevant until 8th ed.
It's the very last chapter (on how to create competitive tournament lists) that changes with every new book but the basic principles there should remain unchanged.



I would definitely be interested in reading this, but I don't think I (or many other people) would be likely to pay for a hard copy of something like that - or rather, the amount you could charge and the number you'd sell would mean you'd probably make a loss. Still, you could get the document printed and bound cheaply without a publisher for maybe 15-20 a copy (less if you can get to a University bindery, which would be dirt cheap).

Putting it online would be much better - I recommend asking nick if he'll host it here. He could probably help out with setting up a paypal donations thing too (of course it would be fair to split that with the site if they're hosting it for you).

You could even set up what you have now as a wiki so that it could easily be updated as armies/rules change.

1) Great. It's the response that will certainly encourage me to place it on this Forum. I've got it as a Word document at the moment. Would a pdf format be much better?

2) Can you recommend a 'University bindery' please?

2) Wikepaedia? - Didn't think of that. Certainly worth a thought if everything else fails! Hopefully not.

W0lf
27-01-2009, 14:18
No offence intended and im not questioning you but;

What credentials do you have, per se?

Because a book on fantasy tatics written by 5 time GT winner 'Mr x' will sell 10X better then a book written by your average player.

Coram_Boy
27-01-2009, 14:20
If you are in london, a trip down to oxford could do the job for you. I think they have a binders there - given the Bodleian library is there, I would say its all but certain. I'll do some research on the matter. I myself am an amateur bookbinder, as a matter of fact (although I really mean amateur) and 2 things: firstly, you may need to print on A3 leafs if you want to do it yourself (IE P1 and Pfinal on the first sheet, and so on). But having a pdf copy with a donations system, and perhaps getting advertising/sponsorship for the site, would work well.

mweaver
27-01-2009, 14:20
If you have it online, you can continually update it. I certainly think people would be interested in reading it (or at least the bits relevant to their armies) (and their friends'/opponents' armies).

The donation model might help defray the costs some, as others have suggested.

DeathlessDraich
27-01-2009, 14:30
No offence intended and im not questioning you but;

What credentials do you have, per se?

Because a book on fantasy tatics written by 5 time GT winner 'Mr x' will sell 10X better then a book written by your average player.

No offence taken. :)
Credentials? None I can think of - I've never won any GTs but this is not going to be a profitable or even financial venture.

Have a look at my 16 Invented armies in my signature and you'll have an idea of the minimum quality of work I find presentable. That's the closest credential I can think of. ;)

All I can say is to repeat the old adage - "The proof of the pudding is etc .."


If you are in london, a trip down to oxford could do the job for you. I think they have a binders there - given the Bodleian library is there, I would say its all but certain. I'll do some research on the matter.

Thank you please let me know. I'll keep the Bodleian library in mind.

McMullet
27-01-2009, 15:44
1) Great. It's the response that will certainly encourage me to place it on this Forum. I've got it as a Word document at the moment. Would a pdf format be much better?

PDF is always better for distribution - anyone can read it, and it preserves formats and layouts better. I'd recommend pdfcreator, it's what I use: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/


2) Can you recommend a 'University bindery' please?

Well, Southampton is good for few quid a copy but obviously it depends where you are. Commercial print shops cost an arm and a leg to print and bind, but if you have a decent printer you can print your own pages and any university will have a place for students to get reports softbound for a few pounds a copy (Southampton, for example, has 3 - the admin department have one for "official" materials that also does work for students, there is a semi-commercial one in the library and the cartography department does higher quality book binding).


2) Wikepaedia? - Didn't think of that. Certainly worth a thought if everything else fails! Hopefully not.

No, not wikipedia. It would (quite rightly) be deleted from wikipedia. I just meant a wiki-style website: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki) conveniently explains what this means. If you started your own wfb tactica wiki using all of the material you have written, it could then be updated by you or anyone else when a new book comes out, or if a section is less complete or less accurate than it could be.

A single document would be a good starting point for a wiki, which could then be enhanced by contributions from others, specific army tacticas could be added, and so on. Of course that depends on whether or not you're happy to have other people edit your work - they may well disagree with you.

Master Stark
27-01-2009, 15:53
No offence taken. :)
Credentials? None I can think of - I've never won any GTs

Well then, how do we know your advice on tactics is going to be any good?

Coram_Boy
27-01-2009, 17:39
Stark, the answer to that is to wait and see. The vast majority of warhammer players haven't won a GT, but are still perfectly good players. Anyway, with the gaming situation as it is now, you don't necessairily have to be a good general to win a GT (Though it helps!)

Hmm... I think that last bit should be on a mug.

Condottiere
27-01-2009, 20:22
You need to be bad to be good.

Godfiend
27-01-2009, 20:54
Well, to answer a question posed somewhere on this thread, a pdf won't let anyone edit your stuff (at least, very easily).

Your credentials will be shown when we can read the quality of your tips and tricks, but I'd suggest you look into interviews and stuff with GT winners for future versions, getting the input of 'pro' players.

A wiki style on tactics would be open for anyone to edit, and that is going in a very different direction than what you have done. However, as no two people on the internet can agree on anything (by law), it probably wouldn't get a lot done.

Lord Inquisitor
27-01-2009, 21:06
Several points:

1) a general book on wargaming tactics (which may have a section on Warhammer) is probably able to skirt the IP issues - but you'd probably need to have a very general knowledge of wargames to pull it off and probably a lawyer to make sure you're okay legally.

2) Posting stuff online is a good way to judge whether people value your advice. Like webcomics, if you can show a decent body of work and a fan following, that might be more convincing in terms of selling the thing.

3) Black Library don't do gaming books, so it's dubious they'd be interested (although you could always try) and Games Workshop haven't to my knowledge employed freelancers even in White Dwarf for a long time (fanatic webzine aside). That said, you can always try. You could put together a bunch of two- or three-page articles and send them to White Dwarf. They've certainly published such things in the past.

DeathlessDraich
28-01-2009, 08:35
Thank you again.

Godfiend - Yes, I will convert the manuscript into pdf format and abandon the wiki approach.

Lord Inquisitor -
1) The book deals exclusively with Warhammer Fantasy. It looks increasingly likely that this is going to be an e-book with only donations to maintain its upkeep. I'm not an expert on copyright law but IIRC, English copyright law does waive copyright for charitable purposes - I don't know about donations though. :p

2) I'm not sure I can drum up a fan following. Like any book some will like it and some won't. It will be the first of its kind.
I'm sure it will ripped off, embellished and used by someone else, who will maybe even make money out of it. I'm prepared for that so long as the wargaming community knows it is originally my work and I get the recognition I deserve.

3) Yes, I have suggested a series of articles to White Dwarf and Jervis but to no avail. I was so desperate at one stage, that I suggested to a well known GW personality that I would gladly give him a huge share of the takings plus grant him joint authorship if he could get it published. Unfortunately - still no!:p

If anyone has any influence at WD I'll appreciate any help.:)

Condottiere
28-01-2009, 09:37
Editorial policy is important to understand in order to get submissions accepted, not that I'm in publishing.

Editorial policy may be dictated from on above, and as WD is actually GW's inhouse monthly catalogue, not only is the majority of the pages devoted to advertizing, they may also wish to keep a tight hold on what's published, and possibly in a cynical way, try and control the direction of their readers' thoughts.

I think you're better served by cutting your teeth in an independent magazine or fanzine.

DeathlessDraich
28-01-2009, 11:34
Thanks for the suggestion, Condotierri but if I were to try a fanzine or independent magazine wouldn't I still have the same copyright problems?
Any suggested magazines where there is no such problem would be appreciated if you know any.

Chicago Slim
28-01-2009, 14:47
I'd definitely be interested in reading it, but especially as a PDF (I avoid Word whenever possible).

There are a number of self-publishing websites, which will happily print and bind as many copies as you want for a pretty reasonable price. The one I've heard of most is www.lulu.com -- they have a cost calculator, which estimates a hardcover copy of a 200 page, 6" x 9" black-and-white book at about 13 pounds, plus shipping. Lulu will also allow you to flag your book as private (only you can order copies) or public (anyone can order it), so you have the option of sending people the link and letting them buy a copy for themselves, as well.

Warboss Antoni
28-01-2009, 15:14
The reason WD won't publish it, because, if it's not pertaining to selling models or promoting a new army/unit/expansion, it'll just be thrown out.

Godfiend
28-01-2009, 16:02
There really shouldn't be any copyright issues unless you're posting stat blocks of units. As you're focusing on tactics, you shouldn't need to ever say more than "Chaos Knights have str 5 (with their magic weapons), so they're dangerous!" This isn't IP infringement, even if it probably causes a spasm for GW. Quoting specific parts of a rule, similarly, should also be fine, as long as you don't do the entire section.

The reason GW and WD won't publish it is because Games Workshop doesn't care about the players.

Condottiere
29-01-2009, 05:39
If you review or critique a work, copyright doesn't apply (as long as you don't use that as an excuse to print a major portion of the work in question). Usually termed Fair Use.

Kerill
29-01-2009, 06:15
Talk to nick and have it put on warseer (largest online community) or make a website for tactics and put it on that, you can then make a bit of money through advertising if you want but you aren't actually selling it so IP should be fine.

If you put it on warseer though remember every small mistake or finicky point will get shredded to death (part of the editorial process). Oh you might want to have someone proofread it for you first as well.

BigRob
29-01-2009, 08:09
Don't send it to GW!

I havn't checked for a couple of years, but last time they encouraged people to write in with stuff (For WD, CJ etc) they have a disclaimer clause that anything that gets sent ot them becomes GAMES WORKSHOPS copyright. So if you wrote the definitave book on tactics, and GW published it, under those rules, you would get nothing!

PDF/Website is probably the way to go. The problem with a Wiki is they are very easy to hack/change.

Condottiere
29-01-2009, 09:17
I think that's a standard clause with most publications. The question is usually what compensation you receive and if you're allowed to republish the article in a compilation.

DeathlessDraich
29-01-2009, 09:35
Talk to nick and have it put on warseer (largest online community) or make a website for tactics and put it on that,
If you put it on warseer though remember every small mistake or finicky point will get shredded to death (part of the editorial process). Oh you might want to have someone proofread it for you first as well.

Will be talking to Nick or Sylass shortly.

Yes, Warseer can be very critical but I welcome that if it is also positive. There are bound to be mistakes.
Everytime I re-read a section, I feel compelled to add or correct it.


Don't send it to GW!

I havn't checked for a couple of years, but last time they encouraged people to write in with stuff (For WD, CJ etc) they have a disclaimer clause that anything that gets sent ot them becomes GAMES WORKSHOPS copyright. So if you wrote the definitave book on tactics, and GW published it, under those rules, you would get nothing!

PDF/Website is probably the way to go. The problem with a Wiki is they are very easy to hack/change.

Yes, a good reason not to publish it via GW.


I think that's a standard clause with most publications. The question is usually what compensation you receive and if you're allowed to republish the article in a compilation.

I will almost certainly make it available online *without* actual remuneration but taking donations for its upkeep either on Warseer or on another website.
I will also publish a single hardcopy for myself.

All the contributions and suggestions here have been most useful and positive and I would certainly welcome positive criticism when the book appears online - a matter of weeks I think.
Thanks. :)

Condottiere
29-01-2009, 09:57
On a final note, Good Luck.

PS I'll see if I can take potshots on your less earnest posts.

The Red Scourge
29-01-2009, 11:02
There are also other independent publishers with an interest in the 'nerd' stuff yes some nerds grow up without getting 'proper' jobs ;) These could either help you print and publish the book, if you manage to sell the idea to them.

Or you could have the book printed by yourself and take care of the distribution yourself your chosen printer should be able to advise you on how to reach independent book stores with your book.

This could either be done at a minimal cost give a word document to your local printer and have his DTPs make cheap looking book-ish thing. Or you could be serious about selling the thing and have a pro designer layout the book, do tabletop shots for illustration etc. etc. that all the WFB players are suckers for.

Dark_Mage99
29-01-2009, 16:53
I would recommend going with a self-publishing company. Something like http://www.lulu.com would be ideal for this.

You would have to do the advertising yourself, let people know it's out there, but it will be easy to buy and can be bought on Amazon, or whatever.

vamp
29-01-2009, 21:41
hmm unsure