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forgottenlor
27-01-2009, 18:44
Skink/Kroxigore Mixed Units Under the Math Hammer

There is some debate how good these units are, or whether they are really more useful than say a pure unit of kroxigore. I wanted to put these under the math hammer, meaning to calculate how well they will do in combat.

I specifically took one situation in account namely how well the unit would do if not attacking (after all it should win if attacking). Letís consider how well it does if striking in initiative order. I put it theoretically against a number of WOC units, because WOC is an army offering a lot of varying S and WS values.

In all cases I compare a unit of 2 Kroxigore and 16 skinks against both a unit of 3 Kroxigore and 4 Kroxigore (as the cost of the mixed unit is about in the middle of pure 3 & 4 Kroxigore units). I put them against the following: A unit of 3 Chaos ogres in chaos armour, a unit of 12 Chaos warriors with hand weapons and shields. A unit of 25 marauders with light armour, hand weapons, & shield, a unit of 5 hounds, and a unit of 5 chaos knights with enscrolled weapons. In all cases, I assume the chaos unit is striking skinks if fighting the mixed unit.

VS Chaos ogres. The ogres strike skinks on 3+ they wound on 2+
They strike Kroxis on 4+,. But also wound on 2+
Skinks strike the ogres on 4+, wound on 5+, the ogres get a 4+ save.
Kroxies strike ogres on 4+, wound on 2+, no saves.

Ogres attacking mixed unit, will kill 5 skinks,
attacking the kroxis, they will kill 3.75 kroxigore.

The mixed unit does 2.91 wounds, 2.5 from the kroxigores
A 3 man kroxigore unit does 2.5 wounds (they have lost a kroxigore)
A 4 man unit does 3.75 wounds.

The mixed unit wins by 1.91
The 3 man unit loses by 1.25
The 4 man unit fight to an undecided.


VS Chaos warriors. The warriors strike skinks on 3+ they wound on 2+
They strike Kroxis on 3+ and wound on 4+, Kroxis get a 5+ save.
Skinks strike the warriors on 5+, wound on 5+, the warriors get a 2+ save.
Kroxies strike warriors on 4+, wound on 2+, 5+ saves.

Warriors attacking mixed unit (with 12 attacks), will kill 6.666 skinks,
attacking the kroxis, they will kill 2.666 kroxigore.

The mixed unit does 1.66 wounds, all from the kroxigores (the skinks are dead)
A 3 man kroxigore unit does 2.49 wounds
A 4 man unit does 3.333 wounds.

With the mixed unit loses by 2
The 3 man unit loses by 2.176
The 4 man unit wins by .667 (they have a higher unit strength 12 vs. 9)


Vs. Marauders. The Marauders strike skinks on 3+ they wound on 3+
They strike Kroxis on 3+,. And wound on 5+, Kroxis get a 4+ save
Skinks strike the marauders on 4+, wound on 5+, the marauders get a 4+ save.
Kroxies strike ogres on 4+, wound on 2+, no saves.

Marauders attacking mixed unit, will kill 2.22 skinks,
attacking the kroxis, they will kill .55 kroxigore.

The mixed unit does 3.125 wounds, 2.5 from the kroxigores
A 3 man kroxigore unit does 3.75 wounds
A 4 man unit does 5 wounds.

the mixed unit loses by .10
The 3 man unit loses by 1.8
The 4 man unit loses by .45

Vs.Hounds The hounds strike skinks on 3+ they wound on 3+
They strike Kroxis on 4+,. And wound on 5+, Kroxis get a 4+ save
Skinks strike the hounds on 4+, wound on 4+, the hounds get no save.
Kroxies strike hounds on 4+, wound on 2+, no saves.

Hounds attacking mixed unit, will kill 2.22 skinks,
attacking the kroxis, they will kill .416 kroxigore.

The mixed unit does 3.75 wounds, 2.5 from the kroxigores
A 3 man kroxigore unit does 3.75 wounds
A 4 man unit does 5 wounds.

the mixed unit wins by 5.53
The 3 man wins by 4.33
The 4 man wins by 5.58

Vs.Knights The knights strike skinks on 3+ they wound on 2+
They strike Kroxis on 3+,. And wound on 3+, Kroxis get a 6+ save
Skinks strike the knights on 5+, wound on 5+, Knights get a 1+ save
Kroxies strike knights on 4+, wound on 2+, Knights get a 4+ save.

Knights attacking mixed unit, will kill 5.55 skinks,
attacking the kroxis, they will kill 3.7 kroxigore.

The mixed unit does .83 wounds, all from the kroxigores
A 3 man kroxigore unit does .83 wounds, having lost a kroxigore
A 4 man unit does 1.23 wounds, having lost a kroxigore.

the mixed unit loses by .72
The 3 man loses by 3.87
The 4 man loses by 3.47


Summary: Despite static cr, the mixed unit doesnít do well if not striking first, even losing to the marauders. Only against the chaos ogres, who have no static cr, do they do well. On the other hand in most cases they are doing better than 4 Kroxigores (who. however, would probably do better attacking, do to the additional 6 high strength attacks).
The skinks are the greatest liability against units who can dish out a high amount of low to mid strength attacks. They are a great bonus against units dishing out few high strength attacks (as the Kroxis are especially vulnerable against these)
These calculations are of course very theoretical and donít take many things into account (such as the mixed unitís inability to turn.). Personally Iíve come to the conclusion that the skinks arenít much of a liability or a bonus. The mixed unitís results will be less variable than a big unit of kroxigores, it is also less vulnerable if attacked, but also less effective if attacking.

Dokushin
27-01-2009, 19:04
It looks to me like the mixed unit did at least as well in every fight as a more expensive four-krox unit, costs less, and is core. 4 Krox might get more wounds on a charge, but the mixed unit is going to have that hefty rank+banner bonus.

forgottenlor
27-01-2009, 19:30
Against the unit of chaos warriors it did worse. It would even do worse on a charge. Against similiar units such as witch elves and high elf spearmen it will also do significantly worse, as these units will be able to slaughter enough skinks to easily nullify the rank bonus. However against units like White Lions or Imperial knights, it should do much better.

blackjack
27-01-2009, 19:50
You are also forgetting shooting. t2 skinks will die in droves to even light arms fire.

The real test is mixed skinks/krox vs Saurus spears.

17skinks w 2 krox vs 15 saurus spears. (more points in the skink unit, 18 saurus spears 6 wide would be more optimal for the Saurus but we will go 5 wide for this experiment)

5 front row skinks hit on 4 wound on 5, saurus save on 4 = .41 wounds
2 krox hit on 4, wound on 2, no save = 2.52 wounds

7 spears saurus (assume 3 die) hit back against skinks, hit on 3 wound on 2 = 7.8 wounds

Spear saurus win in a walk.

If the Saurus charge first they kill 5.54 skinks, take 2.52 wounds back and still win combat comfortably.

Put the Saurus spears up against any of the above units and they do better as well.

On the other hand they move 50% slower which is very important.

decker_cky
27-01-2009, 20:43
You are also forgetting shooting. t2 skinks will die in droves to even light arms fire.

So? The skinks are a 3+ ward save for the kroxigors. Who cares if they get shot.


I think the assumption that the kroxigors aren't attacking is a bad one. When they're attacking, which as a M6 infantry block they generally should, they're a train. They minimize attacks back and preserve their rank bonus. Battles that would be close with 4 kroxigors but no skinks are blowouts with the rank bonus.

The units most often charging them will be the M6+ units. Look at fast cavalry, which will be a surprisingly big threat. Other than that, daemonettes have a big advantage against the skink units. Otherwise, you're pretty much looking at heavy cavalry, which will generally be better taking out the kroxigors to minimize S6 attacks back (horses can attack skinks while the riders attack kroxigors I believe).

Saurus don't directly compare too well either, since the saurus are likely to have to accept a charge.

MarcoPollo
27-01-2009, 21:28
These units are used to take on medium to light infantry as well as holding a flank. It provides a real dilema for the opponent. Does he hit the krox and suffer CR points, or kill the skinks and suffer from the dammage of a krox. Nasty against VC or TK where CR/character wounds are perhaps one of the biggest issues in the army.

blackjack
27-01-2009, 21:41
Originally Posted by blackjack
You are also forgetting shooting. t2 skinks will die in droves to even light arms fire.
So? The skinks are a 3+ ward save for the kroxigors. Who cares if they get shot.


Break tests on a cold LD 6 is not that good. Also removes ranks for when the unit actualy reaches combat.

forgottenlor
28-01-2009, 11:00
Break tests on a cold LD 6 is not that good. Also removes ranks for when the unit actualy reaches combat

Wouldn't the unit use the Kroxis leadership of 7?




On the other hand they move 50% slower which is very important.

Yep, and that's why they are hard to compare.


They minimize attacks back and preserve their rank bonus. Battles that would be close with 4 kroxigors but no skinks are blowouts with the rank bonus.

The statistic I calculated shows that this is not so, at least when comparing a mixed unit with 2 kroxigores vs. 4 kroxigores without skinks, which is only slightly more expensive. Indeed the mixed unit only had in most cases a slight advantage. Of course if you are comparing 4 kroxigores alone vs. 4 in a mixed unit, I hope you realize you're paying the price of 2 1/2 kroxigores more and have a huge front and a huge flank.

Michaelius
28-01-2009, 11:57
It's all nice but wouldn't skinks in such cohort be basically giving almost free wounds to for example enemy charging cavalry (as riders can drop one of kroxigors with lance attacks while mount attacks can be allocated against skinks) ?

forgottenlor
28-01-2009, 16:00
It's all nice but wouldn't skinks in such cohort be basically giving almost free wounds to for example enemy charging cavalry (as riders can drop one of kroxigors with lance attacks while mount attacks can be allocated against skinks) ?

The question is if the liability of dying skinks is greater than the benefits of the rank bonus. In the case of imperial knights. The horses hit on 3+, and wound on 3+, meaning 6 horses kill 2.666 skinks.

They hit Kroxis on 4+ wound on 5+, and the kroxis get a 4+ save so they kill .5 kroxis with 6 attacks.

The difference is 2.1
If the skinks provide 3 ranks, then its a net bonus of almost 1. Of course a pure Kroxigore unit would kill more knights.

MarcoPollo
28-01-2009, 16:27
I remembered this arrangement from 5th edition. I really enjoyed the set up. Big hitty monsters with cheap rank bonus and standards. Well worth the investment. Causes fear too.

Frankly
28-01-2009, 17:27
What about units that a skink cohort SHOULD be targeting like zombies, skellies, NGs, Bret infantry. I mean your going to be trying to target units like knights and WoC warriors with units that can handle them.

forgottenlor
28-01-2009, 18:19
Against ws2 units with few attacks, the cohort should do well.

For example 5 skeletons hit on 4+ wound skinks on 3+

Meaning 1.666 kills.

Vs. kroxies the same 5 skeletons get .416 kills. which is a net bonus of 1.75 when considering the extra ranks. The skinks also strike first vs. skeletons and zombies, and their extra attacks are extremely useful against zombies.

Let's consider a battle vs. 25 skeletons.

The skinks get .625 kills.
2 kroxigores get 3.333 kills, so 3.95 kills, the skeletons get 1.666 kills. Both units end up with the same US, meaning the Skinks/kroxi unit wins by 2.29

Frankly
28-01-2009, 18:53
Thanks man.

N810
28-01-2009, 19:05
don't forget that the skinks still have javilins... (still poisoned)
so there will probaly be a volley in the shooting phase before they charge.
That is if they can get close enough without geting charged.

Rykion
28-01-2009, 19:31
Did you include the poison javelin armed skinks using stand and shoot when charged in your math? What about the skinks' armor saves? They come with shields according to rumor, so they should have a 5+ AS in close combat when charged from the front.

Kerill
28-01-2009, 20:06
Cavalry make mincemeat of the cohorts though, partly because the horses can kill the skinks so much easier. Consider the following:
6 non inner circle knights, FC charge that unit, knights kill 3.9 skinks, horses kill 1.7, krox attack back and kill 1.24. And that's not a powerful unit of knights either. Try dragon princes, chaos knights or cold ones and it gets nasty quick.

Against anything with spears they die badly as well.

Incidentally the cohort units are not allowed to turn, they can only reform or wheel.

Embalmed
29-01-2009, 08:55
Nice stuff thx for the calculations. I would however like to add:
- Skinks have 5+ AS, this will make a big difference vs S3 troops
- Skinks have I 4, so will not automatically strike after other I 4 troops.

Comparing to Saurus of course is unfair, the mixed unit has better move, can shoot and is aquatic, the comparison with mono-krox that the OP did is much more fair.
Edit: also the 4 Krox unit has a wider frontage, making it less manoeuvrable, particularly if there is a lot of terrain or the field is congested. The mixed unit is in more trouble if flank charged though.

forgottenlor
29-01-2009, 14:05
I did forget the AS 5+, which makes the most difference vs. str 3. opponents. It makes a fairly decent change in the battles vs. str 3 opponents.

Vs Skeletons. The skinks only lose 1.11 models meaning the mixed unit wins by 2.84

vs.Imperial knights. The horses kill 1.777 instead of 2.666 skink, meaning the net bonus of the skinks static cr goes up to almost 2, making it definately worth spending the extra points on them.

vs. Marauders. They only lose 1.48 skinks, meaning they would actualy win against a unit of marauders by .5

edit: I don't account for shooting, I consider this an intangible bonus. You can decide yourself how much this is worth.

Chaos Mortal
29-01-2009, 15:35
thanks alot, some interesting stats here.

Tuned
30-01-2009, 10:38
My only concern with mixed skink/kroxigor units is opponents with a flurry of attacks, u hit a unit of chaos warriors that butcher your entire front rank, im talking 8-9 wounds.

now ur already down by 9 + banner + ranks, and u have 2-3 kroxigors to strike back that need to more or less hit and woundwith everything then have ur opponent fail all saves, now i know your cold blooded but id rather not be rolling my attack dice knowing i need to cause atleast 9 wounds to draw.

i only say this coz it happened to me twice last friday =P

Dragon Prince of Caledor
30-01-2009, 12:43
I took out a fully ranked unit with some kroxigors in it with 4 silver helms. I struck at the skinks, won, and overran... It was funny :)

Frankly
30-01-2009, 17:15
As a Skink player I find a lack of funniness about it.:(;)

Cragspyder
30-01-2009, 18:31
4 Silver helms with command is a max of 10 CR (assuming they were charged in the front)

5 rider kills + 4 horse kills + banner.

Skinks already have 5 CR from 3 ranks, standard and outnumber.

Average wounds from the helms is 5 elf attacks (hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+) which likely means 4 kills.

Horses hit on 3+ and wound on 3+, skinks get a 5+ save, so 2 more wounds.

So on average those helms win by one assuming the Krox get through with nothing (6 attacks, 3 hits wounding on 2's, one/two attacks get through the 2+ save)..

Actually...that doesn't seem that unlikely that they would break...

Let's keep our Skinkrox within 12'' of our BSB and General! Or at least make sure they aren't charge by Cavalry.

forgottenlor
01-02-2009, 12:25
Average wounds from the helms is 5 elf attacks (hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+) which likely means 4 kills

Silver helms have strength 5, meaning they wound on 3+ and the Kroxigores have a 6+ save, meaning in all likelihood 5 silver helms only do 1.8 wounds, The horses hit on 3+ and wound on 3+, with a 5+ save meaning 5 horses do 1.481 wounds, for an average of 3.2 wounds. So a unit of 4 silverhelms should only win with really, really good dice rolling, and a really, really bad break test from the mixed unit.


My only concern with mixed skink/kroxigor units is opponents with a flurry of attacks, u hit a unit of chaos warriors that butcher your entire front rank, im talking 8-9 wounds.

Yes, against chaos warriors, witch elves, or similar units, the mixed unit has a real problem and should avoid these units if at all possible. (Remember that these units are slower).

Cragspyder
01-02-2009, 14:35
Forgottenlor, your numbers are correct if the HE Player is silly enough to attack Kroxigor.

If he hits the Skinks with all attacks my numbers are (semi) accurate.

forgottenlor
01-02-2009, 17:00
5 silver helms hitting the skinks hit on 3+
Wound on 2+, with 1 attack each that's still only
2.777 kills, with the horse kills they've probably got 4, not 6 kills, and like you said, the Kroxigores will kill one rider, actually 1.24, Meaning the mixed unit wins by 1 normally. Those are good odds.

Cragspyder
01-02-2009, 19:22
Ok, you're correct, it looks like I erred in favour of the elves.

Silver helms will kill 3 Skinks with 5 attacks, not 4.

4 Horses will kill 1 Skink, not 2.

Kroxigor will kill 2 Helms, not 1.

Instead of using actual averages, it looks like I was using 'Cragspyder's Law of Averages', which states that 'all units used by Cragspyder will have worse luck than is feasibly possible'.

I should have told you I was applying this law beforehand.

(ie. I suck at math, please forgive me).

forgottenlor
02-02-2009, 15:44
I'm also only using the mathematical averages.:) What actually happens in a game as we all know can be quite different. For example I have had amazing luck with skaven slaves, even though they are the worst of the worst. On the other hand my tooled out lords tend to do pretty awfully.:rolleyes:

MarcoPollo
02-02-2009, 17:36
Sounds to me like the mixed unit would work well against other "anvil" types. Units that don't have alot of elite attacks are good targets for skrox unit. Also, units that may be "character bunkers" would also be good targets. The movement of 6 is quite fast, so it can work as a detachment style. Too bad swarms crumble, as that would be a good trap to set up a flank with a "skrox" unit.

Cragspyder
02-02-2009, 18:37
Is 'Skrox' going to be the shortform for that unit?

I prefer Skinkrox myself.

Time for a poll!

Buddha777
05-02-2009, 14:26
Just on a tactical level, 10 skinks with a Krox seems like a ridiculously good way to deliver the krox into combat. It seems like the skinks function better as ablative wounds to make sure you can slam the big guy into an enemies flank.

Am I missing any actual use of the skinks (other than 1 or 2 CR points) other than extra wounds?

Dragon Prince of Caledor
05-02-2009, 17:33
As a Skink player I find a lack of funniness about it.:(;)

lol lizardmen are awesome !!! But the skinks make delicious eating ;):p:angel:

macdaddy_o
06-02-2009, 17:02
The way I see it a cheap skink/krox unit of 16/1 with std and mus goes for around 149 points. You have a static 4CR with a possibility of outnumbering. The unit is fast and is immune to fear.

It is good for taking on fast cav, other light units, missile units, and warmachines. If used in conjunction with a stegadon/carnosaur in a combined charge it also does really well. Its speed allows it to be a dangerous flanker.

While I dont think the fullblown super unit (24 skinks, 3 krox) with std/mus for 299 points is worth it, the smaller units provide a very solid light unit due to its static CR and speed (even though it cannot turn).

and because the unit runs in at around 150 points, you can use some bait/flee tactics with it as well, without giving away too many points if it gets caught.

I see a place for it in the lizardman army. In fact, I will be fielding 2 small units (16/1, std/mus) in my army to help control a flank. and if I can get off a combo charge with one of those plus a stegadon, it should be lights out gracy :)

Volker the Mad Fiddler
06-02-2009, 17:59
You made a few mistakes in the calculations [or just didn't show them all].
For example- Chaos Warriors
12 attacks, give 8 hits, 6 and 2/3rds wounds, of which 5 and 5/9ths are not saved. Remember skinks come with javelins and shields and of have a 5+ save to the front in HtH which the str 4 warriors reduce to 6+.

This also occurs in the hound example, the marauders [I think] and will make a difference against troops like the Witch Elves which you mention at the end.