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View Full Version : 5th Ed Kroot Codex by Kompletly Kroot. Playtest Edition



Turbo_MMX
27-01-2009, 23:36
Greetings all.

Taking inspiration from the Boys at the Bell of lost souls a bunch of us over at Kompletely Kroot have been working on building a 5th Edition Kroot Codex.

The First play test edition is ready to go and can be found here.

Codex: Kroot (http://files.sigil.biz/data/5th_ed_kroot_mercenary_army_list_22jan09.pdf)
The forum can be found here.
Kompletely Kroot (http://z8.invisionfree.com/KompletelyKroot/index.php?act=idx)

So check it out, give it a run and let us know what you think. Ill Cross post any comments you wish to make to the KK forums :)

KaynetheDragon
28-01-2009, 02:00
Just noticed this as I was reading through, but the initial Kroot fieldcraft read "wooded terrain" rather than just woods and jungles did it not? Changing it can in fact be viewed as a nerf as wooded terrain is much more broad and can cover things like bushes, swamps, bogs, etc. Is this intentional?

Turbo_MMX
28-01-2009, 02:15
Nope not a nerf. Both the original Kroot army list and the Current Tau empire books both say Woods and Jungle. The chapter approved Swamp fighting rules allowed the Kroot to gain the extra skills also but we just kept the rule as it stood in the Tau rules to prevent confusion.

It would then come down to how you and your opponent made Count for woods and Jungle for the use of this rule :)

GuyLeCheval
02-02-2009, 14:04
Which version is newer. This one or the version 4.2?

Turbo_MMX
03-02-2009, 10:43
This one.

Version 4.2 was made just after the 4th edition Tau dex came out. This one is the 5th edition version.

GuyLeCheval
03-02-2009, 13:18
Well then much unit's are practically left out...:cries:

Turbo_MMX
21-02-2009, 01:22
Ok its been almost a month since we put this thing out there for all you wonderfull games to see.

Do we have any playtest feedback at all? Over at the KK forums we have been going round in circles trying to resolve some final issues with the Knarloc Riders and Great Knarlocs.

If anyone has some feedback ideas on these 2 units (or anything else in the dex) it would be great. We can then post up n ask what you think about our potential changes and go from there.

Sideros Peltarion
23-02-2009, 10:11
I just had a look through and I didn't see the Hunter Kindred (snipers). Did I just miss them or did you actually take them out for some reason, and if so why?

Sholto
23-02-2009, 10:42
I used Mounted Great Knarlocs and Knarloc Riders for the first time in a game at the weekend, although I was playing them as part of a Tau army. You can see the batrep here - http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184755.

I found the Great Knarlocs were very dangerous placed in cover and firing their explosive bolt throwers. T5 and 5 wounds makes them very hard to shift, and enemies cannot ignore those blast weapons. They almost (almost!) held their own charging a Space Marine command squad, so I assume they might have done better against a tactical squad, for example.

In your codex, you charge +25 points for an explosive bolt thrower. Why 10 points more than the IA:3 equivalent? Even at +15 points in IA:3 the weapon is expensive, albeit just worth it for the S6 blast. At +25 I would be unlikely to take it.

EDIT: never mind - I see what you did there. The total points cost is the same. The bolt thrower (explosive) is still worth it!

Sadly, my Knarloc riders had very little to do in the battle. A unit of Vanguard veterans deep striked next to them and Heroic Interventioned them into next week. I like that your codex allows one of them to be a shaper, along with the extra weapon/ grenade options and the lower cost for additional riders. Still have to be very careful in close combat with them, however, at I3. Larger units would seem to be mandatory for assaulting, whereas smaller units with melta/ melta-bombs would make excellent anti-tank choices.

I was disappointed in the shooting from my Krootox, but that was just luck of the dice. I will take the three Krootox again, and I really like the Krootox pack unit :)

Failing morale and then sweeping advances seems to be the bane of my Kroot, and I will need to consider how I use them in assaults more carefully.

Sholto

Turbo_MMX
23-02-2009, 13:14
I just had a look through and I didn't see the Hunter Kindred (snipers). Did I just miss them or did you actually take them out for some reason, and if so why?


They are still there. We swaped them into Elites rather than heavy support. Probably why you missed em :)


The changes that we are currently making (least for the next level of play tests) Knarloc Riders will have the power weapon option remove and the whole unit is going to get rending. The Great Knarloc is also going to have his attacks count as power weapon hits. The thing is bigger than a Carnifex!!! so we figured it should have a similar rule like the Brood lord in the nids (power weapon and rending).

What do you think?

Sholto
23-02-2009, 13:18
Thoughts on the Kodex:-

With so many HQ choices I thought you might allow each HQ choice to influence the feel of the rest of the army - ie a Prey Shaper unlocks Knarloc Riders as Troops choices, for example. This seems to be the way GW are going of late.

Some HQ choices can take Kroot Hounds but without, it seems, losing their IC status. The kodex ought to be explicit about this, just like the Tau Codex is with attached drones.

Wings, Hyper Nymune Organ (fleet) and Blood of the Stalker makes for a lethal combination. 12" scout move and possible 24" charge or outflank and 24" charge means a dead tank on Turn 1 for 105 points.

What happens to the Kroot hounds when their master dies? Do they continue as a unit?

Prey Shaper: you ought to be clearer and say that his Kroot hounds "count as cavalry."

Shaper Council with Wings, fleet, Blood of the Stalker, power weapons and either meltas or flamers! Attach a Master Shaper with Veneration Charm Eviscerator and bump up the Initiative with SEA Fast Reflexes. With a 4+ cover save almost as standard now, is there anything this unit could not turn to swiss cheese?

Headhunter Kindred: your poisoned weapons rules differs slightly from the 5th ed rulebook version. Is this deliberate? I don't think you should vary a common rule like this without good reason.

Hunter Kindred: the "up to 15 additional Kroot" are not Kroot hunters, I assume. You ought to state this clearly unless someone thinks (as I just did) that I could take 20 snipers in a single unit.

Stalker Kindred: In the Ambush rule, if the unit scatters outside a piece of terrain this rule states they must set up "as close to a terrain piece as possible". I don't know what this is meant to achieve, but I think it is worded rather vaguely. Nothing in the rule actually says that if the unit deep strikes <here> you change the deep strike location to be <there>. I assume this is the point of the rule, but you need to be very clear about rules like these. You might want to adopt the lictor's Secret Deployment rule instead.

As a general comment on the Kodex, I think it would be very helpful to new players who (at first glance) might not see much variation to show a sample army at, say, 1500 points and have the owner explain why he chose the units he did and what he expects them to achieve. GW do this sort of thing whenever a new codex is released and, while you might not always agree with the comments on the units, it at least gives new players an easy-to-read starting point for building their army. You could add to this and have a section that explains how to start your Kroot army, both in terms of purchasing models and easy conversions to make as well as what units you might take for 500 points.


The changes that we are currently making (least for the next level of play tests) Knarloc Riders will have the power weapon option remove and the whole unit is going to get rending. The Great Knarloc is also going to have his attacks count as power weapon hits. The thing is bigger than a Carnifex!!! so we figured it should have a similar rule like the Brood lord in the nids (power weapon and rending).

What do you think? I think Great Knarlocs' attacks should count as if they were made by Monstrous Creatures, since they are larger than and as strong as most Monstrous Creatures anyway. As an alternative, power weapon plus rending is decent. Gives them a chance to penetrate Land Raiders!

Sholto

Turbo_MMX
23-02-2009, 13:31
Thoughts on the Kodex:-

With so many HQ choices I thought you might allow each HQ choice to influence the feel of the rest of the army - ie a Prey Shaper unlocks Knarloc Riders as Troops choices, for example. This seems to be the way GW are going of late.

We had thought about that. It may be in the final list or it might not. we are still Working out the kinks.



Some HQ choices can take Kroot Hounds but without, it seems, losing their IC status. The kodex ought to be explicit about this, just like the Tau Codex is with attached drones.

Is it not? I thougth after each entry it states they keep their IC status?



Wings, Hyper Nymune Organ (fleet) and Blood of the Stalker makes for a lethal combination. 12" scout move and possible 24" charge or outflank and 24" charge means a dead tank on Turn 1 for 105 points.

Yeah that was an oversite on our part. The HNO and Wings are not ment to be able to mix together. It sliped the net. It wont be in the final. However a basic squad of trackers with an evicerator can still do that same trick for 100 points ;)



What happens to the Kroot hounds when their master dies? Do they continue as a unit?

Still working on that one. Like the Current Tau dex im thinking they probably will, but we might lower their leadership in order to make the handlers needed more.



Prey Shaper: you ought to be clearer and say that his Kroot hounds "count as cavalry."

We did put in a rule saying they move at the same speed as the Prey Shaper. Would that not cover that?



Headhunter Kindred: your poisoned weapons rules differs slightly from the 5th ed rulebook version. Is this deliberate? I don't think you should vary a common rule like this without good reason.

Good point. I think that was an oversite too. Ill pass that back our list keeper n he can fix it.


Hunter Kindred: the "up to 15 additional Kroot" are not Kroot hunters, I assume. You ought to state this clearly unless someone thinks (as I just did) that I could take 20 snipers in a single unit.

Well then you thought correct. You can take 20 snipers in a single unit. CRAZY stuff!


Stalker Kindred: In the Ambush rule, if the unit scatters outside a piece of terrain this rule states they must set up "as close to a terrain piece as possible". I don't know what this is meant to achieve, but I think it is worded rather vaguely. Nothing in the rule actually says that if the unit deep strikes <here> you change the deep strike location to be <there>. I assume this is the point of the rule, but you need to be very clear about rules like these. You might want to adopt the lictor's Secret Deployment rule instead.

Yeah we are using the lictor rule for the next Update. This was a screw up with the guy who was trying to get all the rules together but didnt have a copy of the nid dex handy. But now he has!




I think Great Knarlocs' attacks should count as if they were made by Monstrous Creatures, since they are larger than and as strong as most Monstrous Creatures anyway. As an alternative, power weapon plus rending is decent. Gives them a chance to penetrate Land Raiders!
Sholto

We have been debating this LONG AND HARD since the first day we started wrighting this list. The main issue came from us not wanting to look like we were going all Fanboy super crazy on our upgrades. N its been hard enought to convince most of the guys working on the list to make the thing have power weapon hits! Ill pass your comment back n hope that eventualy they will crack... but i doubt it :)

Thanks for the feedback. If you have more please dont hold back. We really want to get this list right. Ill Cross post your comments to the KK forums.


Also yes we will be having a Modeling section and army list examples in the dex too. This version was just the first draft of the rules to try n work out the kinks before the final product.

Sholto
23-02-2009, 14:00
Tracker Kindred: I like the idea of mounted snipers, but would like them much more if you included a rule that said they counted as stationary when firing. You would rule that they could not charge after doing so, however. Otherwise, what is the point of letting them take hunting rifles? To continue the theme of mounted shooters par excellence, you could also rule that they counted as stationary when firing Kroot rifles as well, letting them roam around taking 24" range shots at anything they liked.

Knarloc Riders: I would make these Elites, and give them some kind of special Kroot lance. It is very odd to see an army with so many cavalry units having no lances or other special cavalry weapons of any kind. The lance would be something that would only give them a benefit on the charge.

Kroot hound packs: it seems strange to me that this unit has more Kroot carnivores than Kroot hounds, given the name. Also, should there not be some penalty for the unit if all the Kroot are killed - eg. the hounds might start attacking the nearest enemy unit, that sort of thing.

Krootox herd: dude, I love this unit! Dunno why, I guess I just like seeing such these guys having a chance to get some! Their T3 really hurts them as Heavy Support, however, as does not being able to move and shoot at range. You could let them move and shoot if you made them Relentless, for a cost. You could also take some kind of plant-based drug as an option, to give them FNP, although that will not help against S6 instant death attacks. You cannot increase them to T4 on their own (ie. without using the SEA) since Majority Toughness will render it pratically useless. A viable option might be to up-armour them. A 4+ save (for the Krootox only) would make all the difference to this unit, as well as making for some cool conversion opportunities. I think you ought to give the Shaper a twin-linked Kroot gun, just because!

Kroot traps: I like the idea, but I think you have gone a little overboard. Most traps in 40k (see Cities of Death, although there are plenty of others) have a chance of not working. Usually 1 in 6. In addition, they usually either deliver a single high-S hit or a few medium S hits. These traps always work and deliver a potentially huge number of fair-S hits. I suggest allowing for two types of trap: one with a single, S8 hit and one with D3+3 S4 hits, which causes Pinning. Still enough to cause concern to infantry and/ or vehicles, but not enough to wipe out a unit. Most traps also state that they trigger as soon as the unit enters the terrain, but this one lets the unit complete its move first. Why? You might also mention if a skimmer/ jetbike will trigger the trap. Perhaps skimmers would not since they are too high off the ground, but jetbikes would. Lastly, secret deployment of traps is not always the most effective way to use them. If the enemy knows where your traps are, sure he can avoid them, but then you have just placed certain parts of the board off-limits to him. Perhaps the Kroot player can choose to reveal where the traps are by placing a marker, but he chooses to do so this gives the enemy a chance to defuse them. That would result in the traps not working on a 1 in 6, as above. Otherwise, if the Kroot player did not declare them, the traps would automatically work as before.


Is it not? I thougth after each entry it states they keep their IC status? Yes and no - it states they can join other units which is not the same thing. Not exactly. If, for example, a Master Shaper with 2 Kroot Hounds joins a unit of Carnivores, does he count as an IC in an assault? And, if he does, does that include his hounds, or are they separate members of the unit just like the individual Carnivores. You know how some people get about RAW. Never hurts to state exactly what you mean in the world of 40k, especially in a 3rd-party codex.


We did put in a rule saying they move at the same speed as the Prey Shaper. Would that not cover that? See above re hounds ;)


Well then you thought correct. You can take 20 snipers in a single unit. CRAZY stuff! I stand corrected. Can I add a "Holy s**t!" :skull:


This version was just the first draft of the rules to try n work out the kinks before the final product It's already looking great, so I can't wait to see the final version.

Sholto

Turbo_MMX
23-02-2009, 14:05
Tracker Kindred: I like the idea of mounted snipers, but would like them much more if you included a rule that said they counted as stationary when firing. You would rule that could not charge after doing so, however. Otherwise, what is the point of letting them take hunting rifles? To continue the theme of mounted shooters par excellence, you could also rule that they counted as stationary when firing Kroot rifles as well, letting them roam around taking 24" range shots at anything they liked.

We played around with shooting and moving rules with the trackers but we could not get the ballance right. The trackers have always been a weird unit in that they are a fast model that has a heavy weapon. But it seems to add to their character and versatility. You can use em as ranged support for a few turns before Dashing at a tank with the evicerator armed Shaper! They are unlikely to change at this point unless we can come up with something to balance it out. It would be like if Marine scout bikes could take Sniper rifles. Awesome, but a little too good for the points value.



Knarloc Riders: I would make these Elites, and give them some kind of special Kroot lance. It is very odd to see an army with so many cavalry units having no lances or other special cavalry weapons of any kind. The lance would be something that would only give them a benefit on the charge.

hehe, Uber_Kroot is going to love you when he reads this! We have been talking about a lance idea for a while but still have not been able to work out the balance. As i stated before we are going to give the Riders "Rending" in the next update since the Great knarloc will now have a Power weapon Jaw.



Kroot hound packs: it seems strange to me that this unit has more Kroot carnivores than Kroot hounds, given the name. Also, should there not be some penalty for the unit if all the Kroot are killed - eg. the hounds might start attacking the nearest enemy unit, that sort of thing.

The squad sizes came from the GW version of the rules. The hounds were always 10 Kroot and 5 hounds base. It seemed the best way to go because if we included less Kroot and more hounds the unit became too cheap and too powerfull from the start. It came down to balance in the end.

Interesting idea about "Rage" for the Kroot less hounds. Maybe even have it that they have to pass a leadership test in order to prevent it. Similar to a Nid Synaps thing... Will have to see what the others say.


I see what your getting at with the IC status n movement thing. Ill again get Uber to fix this in the next update :D

Turbo_MMX
23-02-2009, 14:09
Rather than doing another Edit ill just do another post to make it less confusing lol.


Krootox herd: dude, I love this unit! Dunno why, I guess I just like seeing such these guys having a chance to get some! Their T3 really hurts them as Heavy Support, however, as does not being able to move and shoot at range. You could let them move and shoot if you made them Relentless, for a cost. You could also take some kind of plant-based drug as an option, to give them FNP, although that will not help against S6 instant death attacks. You cannot increase them to T4 on their own (ie. without using the SEA) since Majority Toughness will render it pratically useless. A viable option might be to up-armour them. A 4+ save (for the Krootox only) would make all the difference to this unit, as well as making for some cool conversion opportunities. I think you ought to give the Shaper a twin-linked Kroot gun, just because!

You would not belive the talk we have been having about this unit!!! It took so much debate to get em to this stage i dont know if they are going to get any new upgrades in the next version. But still ill pass this all back n see what everyone says.



Kroot traps: I like the idea, but I think you have gone a little overboard. Most traps in 40k (see Cities of Death, although there are plenty of others) have a chance of not working. Usually 1 in 6. In addition, they usually either deliver a single high-S hit or a few medium S hits. These traps always work and deliver a potentially huge number of fair-S hits. I suggest allowing for two types of trap: one with a single, S8 hit and one with D3+3 S4 hits, which causes Pinning. Still enough to cause concern to infantry and/ or vehicles, but not enough to wipe out a unit. Most traps also state that they trigger as soon as the unit enters the terrain, but this one lets the unit complete its move first. Why? You might also mention if a skimmer/ jetbike will trigger the trap. Perhaps skimmers would not since they are too high off the ground, but jetbikes would.

The Traps were taken directly from the new marine scout bike cluster bomb rules. We figured they were the closest thing to the original Punji pit rules that existed in the 5th ed rules set. But again ill pass it all back :D

You should even jump over to the site n veiw the process if you wish :D

Sholto
23-02-2009, 14:25
The Traps were taken directly from the new marine scout bike cluster bomb rules. We figured they were the closest thing to the original Punji pit rules that existed in the 5th ed rules set. Okay - I cannot really argue with the new SM codex! :)

On the subject of Hunter Kindred, IG get max 10 snipers for 110 points. These have Ld6 and T2. They do have +1 to their cover saves and BS4, however, but Kroot get 10 snipers for 108 points with +3 wounds, +1 to cover saves in woods etc and Ld8. What I am saying is you might want to put a cap on Hunter Kindred like the IGs 0-1, since three units of 20 snipers with 3+ cover saves (564 points) would get old very fast. Put them in Cities of Death where they can ignore other units' cover saves and watch your opponent's face!

I see on your website you are debating Special Characters. I think this would be a very interesting direction to go, since you could come up with all manner of Special Characters that would give a Kroot army a different flavour. You could have Knarloc Rider characters or Vulture characters or Stalker characters or even Krootox rider characters (okay, probably not the last one!). The problem with these is getting non-Kroot players to accept them, and that means keeping the special rules to a minimum. Not just balance issues here, but diplomacy issues as well ;)

Sholto