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Zywus
28-01-2009, 11:20
I originally sent this question to GW, but they seem to be ignoring me. It seems to me that the rules makes it virtually impossible to execute a turn manouvre to the flank, in the way the rules seem to indicate. My gaming group will surely use houserules to fix the problem, but when playing in a tournament, it would be good to know if this problem have been been officially solved by a FAQ or similar.

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A unit of troops represented as ^ or > to show in wich position they are facing are deployed i a formation with 5 files, 3 complete ranks and one incomplete rank consisting of two models (Figure A). They are charged in the flank by a unit of #'s. The models in the incomplete rank are thus moved to fight to the flank. (figure B)

The unit of ^'s manage to win the combat and wishes to turn to the flank in order to gain a rank bonus sometime in the future (using the rules for for a free manouver on page 46 in the rulebook), However, doing so would mean that they would fight with one less model.

As the models in the incomplete rank would be placed in the back of the formation with would now consist of 3 files, 5 complete ranks and one incomplete rank consisting of two models, meaning that three models instead of four are fighting against the #'s. Since the rules state that the free manouvers can only be executed if it would result in "reducing the number of models in base contact with the enemy" This would mean that turning to the flank is only possible if the unit has no incomplete ranks, wich seems rather silly.

(the ...īs only represent empty ground and are included for the "models" to keep their formations)


(Figure A)
^^^^^
^^^^^
^^^^^
^^

(Figure B)
^^^^^#
^^^^^#
^^^^^#----Charge
.......^^#
...........#

(Figure C)
..>>>>>#
>>>>>>#
>>>>>>#
...........#
...........#

In addition, even with no incomplete ranks it is unclear weather you would be allowed to turn towards your flankers since the rules state that you may only execute the manouvers to "bring more models in contact with the enemy" and i canīt think of a scenario where a turn manouver could ever bring more models in contact with the enemy (at least if you are mounted on square bases). It also state though, that you can't execute the manouver if it would reduce the number of models in contact with the enemy.

So as the rules are now written i can't see how they could ever allow a player to execute a free turn manouver to his flank if he has an incomplete rank (or even if he has only complete ranks, or to his rear if you choose to go on he first statement of having to bring more models in combat, rather then the second, only requiring that you do not reduce the number of models fighting)

I assume that the intention are for units charged in the flank to eventually turn and then expand their frontage so that they again can bring their rankbonus to bear. But as the rules are now written, they need clarification.

Kalandros
28-01-2009, 11:26
didnt the errata remove that part about bringing more models in contact?

You can execute a turn manoeuvre if you win and are flanked.

Necromancy Black
28-01-2009, 11:28
We had this come up today or yesterday, and yes, your right, as the rules are it's very ahrd to make a turn without breaking them.

We've always house-ruled this but that's not really helping the issue. My advice is, in a tournement situtation, is to ask the organisers and get a clear answer before hand. In friendly games bring the matter up before the game and resolve it then. If you have to dice it off, do it before the game. This way you both have the idea of what will happen and the issue won't be brought up in a scenario were one side will be obviously advantiged and the over disadvantige by either course of action.

Also I can't find anywhere at all where this has been FAQ'd or erreta'd

Tarax
28-01-2009, 12:40
Wouldn't it have been better if they said that the same number of models will remain in contact and the rest of the unit falls in behind them.

Thus, in your example, the unit would be 4 wide, with 4 complete ranks and a single model in the final rank.

Come to think of it, now you have 5 ranks instead of 5 files.

Make it a house-rule or something.

warlord hack'a
28-01-2009, 12:40
now here comes the solution: what you are describing is not a turn, it is a reform facing to the flank.. When you turn your ranks become your files and vice cersa, so you would not have a unit of 3 models in each rank, but a unit with 4 models in the first 2 ranks and 3 models in the ranks thereafter (which by the way is also illegal as only the last rank may have less models than the ranks in front of it).. A turn is a silly thing for any unit with less than 5 ranks as these units lose their rank bonus when turning (as for a rank bonus you have to be 5 models wide).

enyoss
28-01-2009, 14:06
A turn is a silly thing for any unit with less than 5 ranks as these units lose their rank bonus when turning (as for a rank bonus you have to be 5 models wide).

Well, that's not entirely true :).

For example, should I win combat and actually be able to turn, I find it's almost always worth turning my White Lions to face flank chargers. Ok, it won't do me much good in the next turn, but should I win again I can start expanding frontage which gets more of my guys in contact and starts to add on rank bonus too.

It may take a turn or two to realise the advantages, but it's definitely better than leaving one or two guys on the edge duking it out by themselves.

Cheers,

enyoss

WLBjork
28-01-2009, 14:23
Also I can't find anywhere at all where this has been FAQ'd or erreta'd

Rulebook Q&A/Errata number 1, first page, last errata in the left-hand column.




It can be advantageous to turn - the only time it really isn't is if the flankers are US<5.

McMullet
28-01-2009, 14:32
now here comes the solution: what you are describing is not a turn, it is a reform facing to the flank.. When you turn your ranks become your files and vice cersa, so you would not have a unit of 3 models in each rank, but a unit with 4 models in the first 2 ranks and 3 models in the ranks thereafter (which by the way is also illegal as only the last rank may have less models than the ranks in front of it).. A turn is a silly thing for any unit with less than 5 ranks as these units lose their rank bonus when turning (as for a rank bonus you have to be 5 models wide).

No, the manoeuvre described is a turn. See p13 of the rulebook. Although the first sentence states that models remain in place and turn, it then goes on to clarify that incomplete ranks are NOT left in place. Models in the first and any subsequent complete ranks are turned in place; models from the incomplete rank (if present) are placed at the back of the new unit, precisely as in Zywus' diagram. Incidentally, if you have a unit in the flank you don't generally have a rank bonus anyway - so why is that such a bad idea? By turning you rob your opponent of the +1 flanking bonus, and if you win again you can expand frontage, getting more attacks and regaining your rank bonus.

Anyway. The section of the rules on free manoeuvres in combat was modified by an errata (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=cat1290033&categoryId=500004&aId=3000006); the requirement to bring more models into combat was removed and no longer applies. The stipulation against reducing the number of models in contact was, however, not removed. That suggests that the only time you can, strictly speaking, turn to the flank is if there is no incomplete rank (in a rear charge the number of models will be the same, barring different base sizes in the front rank).

I would suggest that either the new formation has as many files as the old one had ranks, including incomplete ranks, or that it is simply accepted that 1 or 2 models less my end up in combat after the turn.

WLBjork
28-01-2009, 14:34
D'oh, that's what comes of misremembering rules - I thought hacka was right there!

Neckutter
28-01-2009, 17:28
we have always played it that you dont "turn to your flank" but that you turn your movement tray so that your front is now in base contact with the flanker's front.

McMullet
28-01-2009, 19:45
Well, that is completely wrong by the letter of the rules, and I suspect by the intent too - a turn manoeuvre almost always leaves you with no rank bonus. Your first free manoeuvre gives you as small advantage - no flanking bonus. If you beat them again, you change formation and get more attacks and full ranks.

This means that if you beat a flanker once by sheer fluke, they haven't lost all their gains from good manoeuvring. If you get flanked by a really weak unit, you'll beat them twice, and then the third combat thrash them into the ground, causing them to run or crumble. Playing it that you can execute both manoeuvres in one go changes the dynamics of the rule a lot, and gives a big boost to the flanked unit.

stripsteak
28-01-2009, 22:23
well i'll be danged. I believe my group has been playing this wrong for a while. i never noticed the subtly of what the turn maneuver actually does.

i guess i'll be paying more attention now and makeing sure to rank up in ways that give me just as many complete ranks as i have files, yay for bringing large units of rats.

enyoss
29-01-2009, 09:36
i guess i'll be paying more attention now and makeing sure to rank up in ways that give me just as many complete ranks as i have files, yay for bringing large units of rats.

Sadly even that isn't enough to ensure you can perform the turn :(.

The only way you'll manage to pull one off (ooh er) is if you have a rectangular formation with at most one casualty from the back rank. If you're not in this `sweet spot' you're still buggered.

In future editions I'm hoping that the unit may perform a change formation manoeuvre (with restrictions) instead, such that the new frontage is the current width of the flank with the rest of the unit automatically rearranging itself behind.

Cheers,

enyoss

Zywus
12-02-2009, 10:18
I have recived answers from GW shedding some light on how the turning are supposed ro work. Apparently their intention is that a turn are to be performed in a different fashion when a unit is engaged in close combat.

This fashion seems to be what they intended:

we have always played it that you dont "turn to your flank" but that you turn your movement tray so that your front is now in base contact with the flanker's front.
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Hello. I see a problem in the rules of the free turn allowed after winning a combat with enemies to the flank. Would you look at my exemple and clarify the situation?


A unit of troops represented as ^ or > to show in wich position they are facing are deployed i a formation with 5 files, 3 complete ranks and one incomplete rank consisting of two models (Figure A). They are charged in the flank by a unit of #'s (figure B), the models in the incomplete rank are thus moved to fight to the flank. The unit of ^'s manage to win the combat and wishes to turn to the flank in order to gain a rank bonus sometime in the future (using the rules for for a free manouver on page 46 in the rulebook), However, doing so would mean that they would fight with one less model. As the models in the incomplete rank would be placed in the back of the formation with would now consist of 3 files, 5 complete ranks and one incomplete rank consisting of two models, meaning that three models instead of four are fighting against the #'s. Since the rules state that the free manouvers can only be executed if it would result in "reducing the number of models in base contact with the enemy" This would mean that turning to the flank is only possible if the unit has no incomplete ranks, wich seems rather silly.
(the ...īs only represent empty ground and are included for the "models" to keep their formations)


(Figure A)
^^^^^
^^^^^
^^^^^
^^

(Figure B)
^^^^^#
^^^^^#
^^^^^#----Charge
.......^^#
............#

(Figure C)
..>>>>>#
>>>>>>#
>>>>>>#
...........#
...........#

In addition, even with no incomplete ranks it is unclear weather you would be allowed to turn towards your flankers since the rules state that you may only execute the manouvers to "bring more models in contact with the enemy" and i canīt thing of a scenario where a turn manouver could ever bring more models in contact with the enemy. It also state though, that you can't execute the manouver if it would reduce the number of models in contact with the enemy. So as the rules are now written i can't see how they could ever allow a player to execute a free turn manouver to his flank if he has an incomplete rank (or even if he has only complete ranks, or to his rear if you choose to go on he first statement of having to bring more models in combat, rather then the second, only requiring that you do not reduce the number of models fighting)

I assume that your intention are for units charged in the flank to eventually turn and then expand their frontage so that they again can bring their rankbonus to bear. But as the rules are now written, they need clarification.


The first Fantasy Rulebook FAQ covers this. Basically that paragraph about ‘only if it would bring more troops into combat’ should be deleted.


I see. Although despite removing that paragraph, one still would not be allowed to execute a turn if it would mean that fewer models are fighting the enemy, then it is only possible to turn after winning a combat with a unit who has no incomplete rank.

A unit of 25 models arranged in a 5x5 formation could turn to their flank after winning a combat where they lost 0,5,10 etc... models. But not after winning a combat after which they lost 1,2,3,4,6 etc.... models.

One solution would be to allow the models to turn on the spot and rearrange it so that they now have as many files as they previosly had ranks (including an incomplete rank) Or to allow a turn if only one model less will be fighting the enemy next turn.



The rule is vaguely written. You should turn the entire unit, formation and all to face the enemy, not just change the facing of the models..


So an unengaged unit executing a normal move manouver will turn each individual model (as described on page.13) and thus potentially adopting a different formation. But an engaged unit winning a fight against enemies to its flank will use their free turn (page.46) in another fashion, turning the entire unit as one entity maintaining it's formation?

That would clear things up quite a bit. Although you might want to adress it in a future FAQ, since one assumes that both types of "turn" are performed as described on (page.13)


That’s it exactly.

We hope to have them update the FAQ as soon as we find the best way to word it.--------------------------------------------------------------------
The turning would thus be performed like this:
(Figure A)
^^^^^
^^^^^
^^^^^
^^

(Figure B)
^^^^^#
^^^^^#
^^^^^#----Charge
.......^^#
...........#

(Figure C)
..>>>#
>>>>#
>>>>#
..>>>#
..>>>#

javgoro
12-02-2009, 10:34
Interesting. Thatīs pretty counter-intuitive, but I guess it makes sense.

McMullet
12-02-2009, 10:50
Good to hear they got back to you. I can't say that I agree with their approach, as it makes it very easy to recover from being flanked. I guess we'll see if this does get FAQ'd, in any case. It certainly needs to be addressed somehow... As long as there's something down in black and white I'm happy, really.

Cheers for sharing the reply.

EvC
13-02-2009, 14:25
Jebus, that's a crazy interpretation. I get the impression that this "GW" guy really didn't want to be having to answer the question!

woodulikeanother
16-02-2009, 22:38
well i fully agree with GW on this because yes you are being flanked Mcmullet and you would think that they are at a disadvantage, but if you think actuality they wouldnt be that suprised from the unit flanking becuase there isnt a unit in combat to thier front, plus its only if you win that combat that you get to turn, so you still get a bonus for atleast 1 turn hopefully if you have more than 5US and do a little damage...