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klstrider28
28-01-2009, 22:32
hey guys, VC noob questions

Can a caster use raise dead on the same unit that he just raised? The wording in the spell says nothing, but the rules for necromancy spells seem to indicate that it can. Just checking to make sure...

klstrider

vampires are cool!
28-01-2009, 22:43
Indeed he can. A new unit will have be created by a necromatic spell (Raise dead) an you will then be able to target it with as many other necromancy spells as you like (Invocation, Vanhals).

soultaker87
28-01-2009, 22:52
if you are talking about him using the Raise Dead spell to summon some zombies then use the same spell on that new unit, then no. the spell only summons a unit of zombies, it doesn't add or heal more into the unit. you would have to use IoN or summon undead horde on that unit to add more. if your are asking if he can use Raise dead then use it again to make another new unit then yes.

siphon101
28-01-2009, 23:04
Raise dead is used to create new units of zombies ONLY. It CAN NOT be used to augment an existing unit. Invocation of Nehek is what ADDS models to an EXISTING unit.

In short:

raise dead creates new units
invocation of nehek adds models to units

If your question is thus, can you cast invocation of nehek on a unit you just created via raise dead, then yes, you can. You can not cast raise dead twice on the same unit because raise dead is only used to create new units from nothing.

ScottyFargo
28-01-2009, 23:19
hey guys, VC noob questions

Can a caster use raise dead on the same unit that he just raised? The wording in the spell says nothing, but the rules for necromancy spells seem to indicate that it can. Just checking to make sure...

klstrider

Sounds like you might have played an opponent who cast raise dead and then invocation of nehek on the zombies to summon more zombies. Yes, that's legal. The two spells are similar, but they aren't exactly the same.

klstrider28
28-01-2009, 23:54
Raise dead is used to create new units of zombies ONLY. It CAN NOT be used to augment an existing unit. Invocation of Nehek is what ADDS models to an EXISTING unit.

In short:

raise dead creates new units
invocation of nehek adds models to units

If your question is thus, can you cast invocation of nehek on a unit you just created via raise dead, then yes, you can. You can not cast raise dead twice on the same unit because raise dead is only used to create new units from nothing.

Alright, I understand that bit now. But can invocation of nehek raise the number of summoned zombie models above its D3+4 number?

Nurgling Chieftain
29-01-2009, 00:28
But can invocation of nehek raise the number of summoned zombie models above its D3+4 number?With the appropriate upgrade, yes. And since virtually anybody who has any intention of raising zombies will take the zombie master ability (it's what, 15 points?), it's essentially a given.

Sifal
29-01-2009, 00:37
would people please read the army book before posting 'knowledge'. zombies can always be taken above their starting strength whether raised mid-game or not, no upgrade is required for this as it is with ghouls, skeletons and 'creatures'. it meas you're casting on 4+ rather than 3+ but hey......

Lord Dan
29-01-2009, 00:52
With the appropriate upgrade, yes. And since virtually anybody who has any intention of raising zombies will take the zombie master ability (it's what, 15 points?), it's essentially a given.

You don't need any upgrade other than the spell: "Invocation of Nehek" to raise zombies.

And "zombie master" doesn't exist. I assume you're referring to the Sceptre de Noroit, which is a 25 point arcane item that adds more zombies to whatever you're raising.

Nurgling Chieftain
29-01-2009, 01:08
Ooops. Oh, well. Haven't seen zombies actually hit the table since the new codex...

siphon101
29-01-2009, 01:23
Alright, I understand that bit now. But can invocation of nehek raise the number of summoned zombie models above its D3+4 number?

yes, zombies have the "newly dead" special rule:

"Inovacation of Nehek raises D6+4 Zombies instead of the normal D6 and Zombies units can be increased beyond their starting size"

page 42

Lord Dan
29-01-2009, 03:09
Ooops. Oh, well. Haven't seen zombies actually hit the table since the new codex...

I know, it's a shame really. They're just so darn cool, and so equally useless!

ScottyFargo
29-01-2009, 04:01
I know, it's a shame really. They're just so darn cool, and so equally useless!

I don't know about that, they are easy to raise for a reason: tarpitting so the Vampire can Van Hel's Danse the good units into the flanks of enemy units.

My best friend used to tell me when I was starting out that the spell he feared most was Raise Dead, because it meant he was going to be stuck for a round or two dealing with massive raises. It depends on the list. I don't think many VC players think Zombies are useless, though many may not write their lists with Zombies as their core.

Ghouls are too nice of a combo of defense (T4) and offense (2 attacks, Poison) and skellies are easy to rack up good CR. Zombies serve a purpose, and magic builds can definitely take advantage of their tarpitting abilities.

Nurgling Chieftain
29-01-2009, 04:22
You're basically better off Van Hel's'ing the good units into flanks without the zombies; that way the enemy doesn't get CR from slaughtering the helpless things.

Necromancy Black
29-01-2009, 05:23
Raise zombies in front of frenzy units, watch frenzy units run off into the trees. Good Zombies.

Nurgling Chieftain
29-01-2009, 05:32
That's more like it. :cool:

Fellblade
29-01-2009, 06:10
I don't know about that, they are easy to raise for a reason: tarpitting so the Vampire can Van Hel's Danse the good units into the flanks of enemy units.It takes like 50+ zombies to "tarpit" anything these days. Its not uncommon for people to blow though 30-40 zombies in a single round of combat unless you're playing against an older army book. Anything less than that will simply use the zombies as a +50pt speedbump to overrun closer to you.


But to answer the initial poster: No. Raise Dead is only used for creating a brand new unit of zombies, so you can't target it against an existing one... including the one just created with the last spell. You'll need to use Invocation to add to the unit, but the rules for doing so are a bit hidden. You'll find them under the zombie's page of the book.

Sifal
29-01-2009, 14:37
zombies are fantastic in a magic heavy army. the ability to guarantee that the enemy can't see them off in one turn is priceless. My successful VC has two large units of zombies and one medium unit of ghouls to start with. No skeletons in sight.

siphon101
29-01-2009, 18:18
It takes like 50+ zombies to "tarpit" anything these days. Its not uncommon for people to blow though 30-40 zombies in a single round of combat unless you're playing against an older army book. Anything less than that will simply use the zombies as a +50pt speedbump to overrun closer to you.

Now that's not true. To kill a 20 man unit of zombies, the basic formula is that the amount of wounds you cause, plus any combat bonuses above the zombie unit has to equal or greater 20 - wounds you cause.

Assuming a 20 model unit of zombies, no standard, gets hit by an outnumbering unit, with standard. The zombies are at a 2 CR penalty. To cut through those 20 zombies then, the enemy unit needs to do 9 wounds, along with their outnumbering, and standard bonus.

Even the highest WS and S units in the game will still only kill a zombie roughly 50% of the time (2/3 chance to hit, 5/6 chance to wound, 56% chance of killing a zombie).

So, liberally, you still need sixteen attacks to kill 9 zombies. The only unit that could conceivably make 16 attacks while still outnumbering, is a 5 man unit of 2A troops with a champion and a lord/combat hero.

It's not common to see 2A troops coming in ranked infantry. Sure, a unit of 5 blood knights can pump out like 20 attacks, but then they're outranked and outnumbered.

Neckutter
29-01-2009, 18:42
i recently played my friend with my ghoul-heavy VC, and i did really well. he was playing his zombie-themed VC with blood knights and a "fighty" lord. the problem with zombies is that they dont do ANY damage whatsoever. and since you cant have a character inside of them, it makes it even easier for them to get CR-killed in droves.

at any rate, it seems like a lot of infantry have 2A nowadays. ghouls, lizardmen, WoC, swordmasters, blackguard, witchelves, corsairs and the list goes on. it seems like if you're a common old WS3 human with a spear+shield you always get pwned in combat.

ScottyFargo
29-01-2009, 23:22
Now that's not true. To kill a 20 man unit of zombies, the basic formula is that the amount of wounds you cause, plus any combat bonuses above the zombie unit has to equal or greater 20 - wounds you cause.

Assuming a 20 model unit of zombies, no standard, gets hit by an outnumbering unit, with standard. The zombies are at a 2 CR penalty. To cut through those 20 zombies then, the enemy unit needs to do 9 wounds, along with their outnumbering, and standard bonus.

Even the highest WS and S units in the game will still only kill a zombie roughly 50% of the time (2/3 chance to hit, 5/6 chance to wound, 56% chance of killing a zombie).

So, liberally, you still need sixteen attacks to kill 9 zombies. The only unit that could conceivably make 16 attacks while still outnumbering, is a 5 man unit of 2A troops with a champion and a lord/combat hero.

It's not common to see 2A troops coming in ranked infantry. Sure, a unit of 5 blood knights can pump out like 20 attacks, but then they're outranked and outnumbered.

Yep. And that doesn't take into account that Vampire Lords can back up their summoned Zombies with Helm of Command, giving them weapon skill 7, making them substatially harder to hit, and that much better of a tarpit unit for that round. It all boils down to tactics.

soultaker87
29-01-2009, 23:56
zombies are still useful, in a friendly game I was playing I tried out a scouting vampire lord that raised tons of zombies (this was 2000 pts so had to be the general, this was just for fun) he caused so much chaos for the empire player as zombies were attacking his war machines and forcing his army to split up trying to kill all the buggers. he killed the general in the end but my black knights and varghulf wiped the rest.