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View Full Version : Alternate Compostition Core, Special, Rare allocation rules?



eagletsi1
30-01-2009, 15:04
I posted this on another thread, but I was asked to post it as a poll:

Our group currently uses the rules below for Composition at tournaments we have another tournament coming up soon and I wanted to get a feel for the how the community likes the rules:

Basically your number of Special and Rare per army is based on the number of core units chosen, but you must still use the rules for comp maximums. Meaning at 2000 pts you can only have 2 rares.

Core = Min core as normal
Special = Number of core choices taken -1
Rare = Number of core taken/2 rounding fractions down

Duplicates:

Specials can be duplicated once each per 2,000 pts
Rares can be duplicated once each per 3,000 pts
War machines can be duplicated once each per 500 pts
2 for 1 choices Special and Rare: 2 for 1 choices equate to 1 choice not a duplicate choice.

Army Specific Rules:

High Elves: All of their Special and Rare units could be interchanged as a 2 for 1 choice in the same group.
So for instance, A unit of Swordmasters and Dragon princes would count as 1 special. Any combination of two Specials or Rares would count as 1 choice in that group as long as they weren't duplicates.

Thanks to the Unwantedbeing for helping clarify our rules.

This has worked well and we have continued to use it.

Let me know what you think?

Ward.
30-01-2009, 15:10
Let me know what you think?

I think it's worked well because of the loose balancing of GWs rules.

It's also something like what I pictured the mainstay rule that skaven use being like in the next book. Minus the bit at the end.

I wouldn't mind knowing why you chose to do it like this though?

eagletsi1
30-01-2009, 15:19
Our group decided that when we get together to play we didn't want to be facing 8 bolt throwers or 2 war hydra's for a fun 2000 pts game. Plus it kinda balances the old books with the new a little bit more, so our players who have old books don't fell so inferior.

But basically we wanted more close games and more fun.

eagletsi1

enyoss
30-01-2009, 15:30
I can see what you're trying to do (I think), but it seems to be adding a fair bit of complication. In a Tournament, I wouldn't be at all surprised if some players turned up with armies that were illegal without realising it.

So I don't think it would work very well in a tournament on the basis of implementation.

If it's for games between you and your mates, if you're all agreed on the problem why not just show some self control and not to turn up with 4 Hydas? :)

Cheers,

enyoss

p.s. I think the rules might be slightly clearer if you rewrote your post collecting all the sentences relating to a particular restriction into a single paragraph. As it is, the single sentence per line format makes it quite hard to see when you're ellaborating on an exisiting restriction or introducing a new one. Quite confusing!

theunwantedbeing
30-01-2009, 15:51
Lets see if I got this right.

Core = min core as normal
Special = number of core choices taken -1
Rare = number of core taken/2 rounding fractions down

Duplicates
Speials can be duplicated once each per 2k
Rares can be duplicated once each per 3k
War machines can be duplicated once each per 1k

Seems okay.
Can't see why you can't make high elves conform to this as well.
Just make bolt throwers 2 for 1 and great eagles 2 for 1.

eagletsi1
30-01-2009, 16:52
Unwanted;

The reason we made the special rules for high elves is because we didn't want to nerf their new extra special and rare choices and combinations.

Which in our opinon was implemented so they could have unique combinations of units instead of being force to take 2 bolt throwers or 2 great eagles.

Condottiere
30-01-2009, 17:13
I once thought about implementing:

Core: minimum 1 unit per 500 points
Special: 1 per 500 points
Rare: 1 per 1000 points

I was told it was unworkable, and it probably was.

Fredmans
30-01-2009, 19:18
I think the best way to go would be to increase points costs on Special and Rare choices. If you really need a Special or Rare unit because you need its tactical advantages, you should be expected to pay for it. As it is now, the Core/Special/Rare system tries to make up for a crappy points system with increasingly arbitrary design decisions to the point where most lists try to figure out how to min-max since special and rare units are more value/point than core units.

Perhaps a flat percentage increase on ALL special and ALL rare choices could do it, but that would restrict some armies more than others. However, I do think the fundamental problem lies in points, not in slots.

/Fredmans

O&G'sRule
30-01-2009, 19:52
Personally I don't like the whole core/special/rare thing, I played before they existed and had several armies made illegal when they changed to it which cost me a fortune to rectify so I could start playing again. To me it just means you play the same armies over and over as you don't really have many options

Desert Rain
30-01-2009, 19:54
It looks good though it's fairly complicated, I had to read it a couple of times before understanding it. If all the players understand it I don't think I would have any problems with playing with those rules.

Neckutter
30-01-2009, 20:48
the problem with these type of things is that some armies have extremely cheap core units, and some armies do not. 10 corsairs is a core unit for DE, where 10 free company is a core unit for empire, and 10 chaos warriors is a core unit for WoC. respectivly they are 100pts, 50pts, and 150spt. thus a empire army could have more "core choices" but they would be less effective on the battlefield.

then there is the snafu with HE only having 2 core units, which are usually 10 archer blocks.

Johnnyfrej
30-01-2009, 21:24
I think these rules are great. However that maybe because I don't play some cheesy powergaming list and prefer a more balanced approach.
(My Empire relies on something I like to call "Strategery")

starlight
30-01-2009, 21:30
You can't legislate good behaviour.


If this is really because you decided that facing two Hydras or eight Bolt Throwers is bad, simply don't bring them and stop using the rules as a crutch. :)


*looks at 3K Snotling Horde...* :(

It's about having fun...

Mozzamanx
30-01-2009, 21:36
Bear in mind that this could potentially make the balance even worse.

Eg. 2 units of 10 Orcs cost 100pts, meaning Orcs & Goblins could potentially have 20 odd Spear Chukkas, or ungodly amounts of Squigs.

skuller
30-01-2009, 23:12
I think it would go really wrong lets take a basic O&G book and make a 2250 army I take 8 arrer boys units for mere 480 then i will be able to have 7 specials that will be 4 spear chukkas, 2 catas, 2 orc chariots 1 wolf chariot, 2 snotlings pump wagons and 1 doom diver a giant and a unit of trolls.
I do see your good intentions to be able to limit the number of specials/rare units but in some armies this can be taken to the next step of abusivness cheese.

Condottiere
31-01-2009, 01:59
You go to war with the army you have---not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time.

Obviously Rumsfeld has never played Warhammer. The way the selection process is supposed to work is that each army has an internal balancing mechanism regarding the distribution of units. It needs to be tweaked, not discarded, since it seems to be not following it's intended purpose.

eagletsi1
01-02-2009, 16:55
Everyone: Please note that the rules don't allow you to go over your normal number of Special and Rare choices. Just limit them.

eagletsi

As I said, "We use them, but also they are for a tournament coming up"

So I want to know would you attend the tournament with these rules.

eagletsi1

Stuffburger
01-02-2009, 17:35
I'm pretty sure these rules are less balanced than the standard ones, though I can see the intent behind them. The issues are that 1) many armies can get ~50 point core units, while others have to pay twice to three times as much. I could buy 8 units of 10 orc boyz for 500 points, then have as many specials and rares as I wanted, and 2) warmachines are a very broad category. In theory I could get 5 hellcannons just as easily as I could get 5 stone throwers? (if I understand this right?)

This would work better if you threw away the special and rare slots being related to core choices but kept the duplication rules as an addition to the normal rules (to prevent the hydras, etc.), and treated warmachines the same way as normal units- limiting an O&G army to 2 duplicate special choices (4 spear throwers).

chivalrous
02-02-2009, 08:51
I'm pretty sure these rules are less balanced than the standard ones, though I can see the intent behind them. The issues are that 1) many armies can get ~50 point core units, while others have to pay twice to three times as much. I could buy 8 units of 10 orc boyz for 500 points, then have as many specials and rares as I wanted, and 2) warmachines are a very broad category. In theory I could get 5 hellcannons just as easily as I could get 5 stone throwers? (if I understand this right?)

This would work better if you threw away the special and rare slots being related to core choices but kept the duplication rules as an addition to the normal rules (to prevent the hydras, etc.), and treated warmachines the same way as normal units- limiting an O&G army to 2 duplicate special choices (4 spear throwers).

Which I think has been covered by


Everyone: Please note that the rules don't allow you to go over your normal number of Special and Rare choices. Just limit them.

eagletsi

As I said, "We use them, but also they are for a tournament coming up"

So I want to know would you attend the tournament with these rules.

eagletsi1

Which I'm interpreting as you still have the usual 3:4:2 ratio at 2000 points.

My conjured-up-in-5-minutes suggestion for a solution would be nothing more that keeping the current unit restrictions in place but adding the rule that you must have a core unit for every rare or special choice you have.
But people would complain that theri armies would be dull and uninteresting, which is the trouble with any of the restriction we place.

Scythe
02-02-2009, 09:19
To be honest, I would just take the duplicate rules, and dump the rest. Through limiting the amount of duplicate specials and rares, you already filter out most boring / monotone lists. The duplicate rule for war machines isn't really needed though I think. War machines tend to be special or rare anyway, and 2 special war machines of the same type per 2000 pts and one rare war machine of the same type per 2000 pts seems perfectly reasonable. Adding extra restrictions on special / rares based on core unit numbers just tends to encourage minimal sized core.