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linkai
30-01-2009, 22:17
As a follow-up to the Balance 40K (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180730) thread, I would like to know YOUR opinion of the strongest and weakest codices in 40K, judged by performance on the tabletop. Please vote for 3 each in the strongest and weakest category. I will catalog all responses in the first post, and have included my votes below.

Edit - I think we're getting a pretty good consensus...

Strongest
25 - Orks
19 - Chaos Space Marines
15 - Eldar
11 - Space Marines
5 - Chaos Daemons
4 - Tyranids
3 - Dark Eldar
2 - Space Wolves
2 - Witch Hunters
1 - Imperial Guard

Weakest
1 - Chaos Daemons
1 - Chaos Space Marines
1 - Space Marines
2 - Dark Angels
2 - Orks
2 - Witch Hunters
3 - Tyranids
4 - Dark Eldar
4 - Tau Empire
20 - Imperial Guard
20 - Necrons
22 - Daemonhunters

Bloodknight
30-01-2009, 22:25
Strongest:
Orks
Chaos
Eldar

Weakest:

Imperial Guard
Necrons
Daemonhunters.

I don't see Space Marines as that good, their performance in my metagame and the tourney statistics I've seen in my country is at best dodgy.

I had a few problems deciding on the weakest army, and in the end I think that IG are better than Necrons (even those that don't cling to 4th edition lists and whine that they don't work anymore - you can build Necron lists that work nowadays, but they get overly punished by the phase out rule. Their damage potential is still good, they just go poof! too quickly.), and Daemonhunters are better than IG, at least the LandRaider lists.

Crowned
30-01-2009, 23:45
Strongest
Chaos Space Marines
Chaos Daemons
Orks

Weakest
Daemonhunters
Necrons
Dark Eldar

Double lash is the only thing that really makes me pick CSM, and on that point you two should specify whether you mean Daemons or Space Marines when you say "Chaos".

Orkeosaurus
30-01-2009, 23:51
Strongest
Orks
Chaos Marines
Eldar

Weakest
Imperial Guard
Daemonhunters
Necrons

ryaryasmith
31-01-2009, 00:07
Good:
Orks, well just about all of them is awesome
Chaos Marines, double-lash, plague marines, oblits...
Loyal Marines(inc. Templar), we haven't rally got past the new/shiny.

Bad:
Guard, "damn I rolled Annihilation again"
Tyranids, "damn I lost combat again, gotta take saves."
Necrons, "damn lost combat again, gotta roll d6+Int."

Underrated:
Witch Hunters, flame templates are fun just not for the heretic.
Dark Eldar, well frankly nobody really sees them and can't react.

Ivellis
31-01-2009, 00:10
Tyranids, "damn I lost combat again, gotta take saves."


...Have you ever played as or against Tyranids?...

Orkeosaurus
31-01-2009, 00:16
Well, if you include Templars (who are pretty good) in Space Marines you have to include Blood Angels and Dark Angels too.

Also, how do Blood Angels assault from Rhinos?

(Without not having moved the Rhino, obviously.)

Hicks
31-01-2009, 00:18
STRONGEST:

Orks
Dark Eldar
Chaos

WEAKEST:

Daemon Hunters
Necrons
Dark Angels

Johnnyfrej
31-01-2009, 00:42
Isn't there like a "no re-thead" policy on Warseer?

The_Outsider
31-01-2009, 00:52
Isn't it strange that often the most powerful forces in the game that aren't point and click people keep rating low? DE and SoB are hideously powerful, but people commonly rate them as rather weak.

I'm guessing it is because they are fairly rare, people do not get adequate experience playing against them (or as them) to truly understand how powerful they are.

Hicks
31-01-2009, 01:23
Isn't it strange that often the most powerful forces in the game that aren't point and click people keep rating low? DE and SoB are hideously powerful, but people commonly rate them as rather weak.

It's about as strange as people who play rare armies and keep reminding others about how their potentialy hideously powerfull army is so not point and click. ;)


I think your second comment is very true though, I've been playing regularly against and with (army swaps) DE for years and I find them to be really strong. My jaw hits the floor everytime I hear someone who never had the displeasure of fighting them call them weak.

Bloodknight
31-01-2009, 01:32
Agreed. DE and SoB are often underrated because a few things might happen: people never play against them, but they look weak on the outside, or people play against people who build "fluffy" lists. One thing is true for both SoB and DE, IMHO - you can either build a weak list or something really powerful, there is no middle ground. A single bad unit choice can screw up the whole army. And: both armies derive most of their power from Troops, which is a rare sight, too.

As for double lash: I couldn't vote for it as the best build - I play only mechanized armies, and Lash doesn't work vs vehicles ^^. When my troops actually disembark, the lash guys die that turn.

Bunnahabhain
31-01-2009, 01:42
Top.
Eldar
Orks
Codex marines

Bottom:
Guard
Daemon hunters
Necrons

Dark eldar are still the ultimate Glass Hammer. Get everything right with them, and they're awesome and then some. Get something wrong and you have a hand full of glass splinters...

ryaryasmith
31-01-2009, 02:44
Also, how do Blood Angels assault from Rhinos?

Sorry, my error there. Was just talking to a friend about old editions of 40k and it kinda just slipped in there without thinking. I removed it.

imweasel
31-01-2009, 04:39
Top:
Dark Eldar
Orks
Eldar
Chaos

Worst:
Necrons
Tau

Lanparth
31-01-2009, 04:43
Strongest:

Orks
Space Marines (Loyalists)
Eldar

Weakest:

Guard
Necrons
Dark Eldar

Putty
31-01-2009, 04:45
None of the armies are strongest or weakest.

they are only separated by hardiest or easiest to play with in the current environment.

holmcross
31-01-2009, 06:10
I'd say Orks and Eldar are at the top, with necrons and Guard at the bottom.

Ganymene
31-01-2009, 08:18
Tier 1:
Orks
Chaos Marines
Eldar
Demons

Tier 2:
Tyranids
Space Marines (all flavors)
Tau
Witchhunters
Dark Eldar

Tier 3:
Guard
Necrons
Demonhunters



For strongest overall, I would have to say it's a tie between Eldar (I'm not biased or anything :rolleyes:) and Orks because both have such mutable army lists and you never know what to expect.

For weakest overall, I have to go with Necrons. The new combat rules are murdering them. They need a new Codex, badly.

Providence
31-01-2009, 08:44
The strongest:
Orks, Eldar, Chaos Marines

The Weakest:
Daemonhunters, Any other poorly constructed army.

The rest fall in the middle, Daemons are too random to give a spot.

Ill agree that Sisters of Battle and Dark Eldar could easily be in the higher bracket, in fact if a good player takes them to a tournament they can win by being an upset to the metagame, like my friends Sisters army is getting more wins around our gaming area as Orks are very popular so people are designing their list with less Anti-Meq and more Anti-Swarm, so the nicely priced power armoured ladies are getting a bit more use.

CrownAxe
31-01-2009, 09:31
Strongest
Chaos Space Marines (Double Lash)
Chaos Daemons (Great units, good player can play around or with DS scattering)
Orks (Orks are Orks)

Weakest
Daemonhunters (Over priced, useless rules and small elite armies suck right now)
Necrons (Nerfed Guass and Sweeping Advance, they need multiple Monoliths to be any kind of competitive)
Tau (Lost their best tactic from 4ed, generally squishy and suck in combat more now)

Lord Malorne
31-01-2009, 10:03
Good:
Armies with good players

Bad:
Armies with bad players

Done :p.

Bloodknight
31-01-2009, 13:05
Ill agree that Sisters of Battle and Dark Eldar could easily be in the higher bracket, in fact if a good player takes them to a tournament they can win by being an upset to the metagame, like my friends Sisters army is getting more wins around our gaming area as Orks are very popular so people are designing their list with less Anti-Meq and more Anti-Swarm, so the nicely priced power armoured ladies are getting a bit more use.

DE don't make it to the absolute top in tournaments because they laugh at anything MEQ, but are not good vs horde armies. Ie you can win a tournament if you don't encounter an Ork player, but if you do, you fight for a draw mostly.

nazrag
31-01-2009, 13:51
Best:
Sisters of Battle (faith points :eyebrows:)
Space Wolves
Guard

Worst:
Necrons
Dark Angels
daemons


Note, this is all in my experience from my local gaming group of 30-40 players. Guard is actually viewed as a really powerfull army around here. Maybe we have good guard players, or worse other players :)

Pyriel
31-01-2009, 14:27
what about Blood Angels and Black Templars? esp. Black Templars have very different rules, so saying they are "codex marines" isn't realistic imho.and the number of jump packs in BA armies also means they play very differently.
anyways...

Strong:
orks (codex greatly favours extreme lists such as 10+ nob bikers or 150+ horde etc.)
Sisters of Battle (faith points, improved multiple-template rules)
eldar(dire avengers are one of the best troops units in the game)

weak:
Imperial Guard(killpoints problem, though imho they are not bottom)
Daemonhunters(lots of problems due to change of environment in 5th)
Nids(very poor as a horde army due to 5th combat resolution, and Nidzilla isnt as viable)

the1stpip
31-01-2009, 14:37
Interesting.

Strongest
Dark Eldar
Orks
Eldar

Weakest
Necrons
Guard
Daemon Hunters

Its amazing how some people see Dark Eldar as being weak. Maybe they just haven't played a competent player before.

Kalec
31-01-2009, 17:49
strongest:
chaos daemons
chaos marines
orks

weakest:
daemon hunters
IG
non-SoB witch hunters

laudarkul
31-01-2009, 19:20
Strongest:
Chaos daemons (have some wonderful games against them),
SM
Eldar

Weakest:
CSM
Orks
SM

This are based on my games, never meet Tau except an Apoc game so I can not say anything about them.

winkypinky
31-01-2009, 21:10
I would say it is more about what builds than what "armies" are the best.

And most of all, in tournaments at least, its about the number of combi-flamers that the powerarmour wearing fellows use. If there was an tournament were every power armoured squad leader was having one of those, the number of ork players at the top tables would be a lot lower than it otherwise can be. (And it would also be almost equally as hard for the one dark eldar player in the field to make it through.)
Also it would be a "meta-thing"

And around here it is almost uphold as law, that 3 drop pods arriving turn 1 equals win.


ps. But one thing that always puzzles me is, the sight of the old grumby grey man who looks at least 40, (probably isnt) with glasses and a little bald. With ancient eldar models, always brutalising his opponents plastic army while he is complaining about his loss of vortex grenade. If you look around he will almost always be there.

Creeping Dementia
31-01-2009, 23:53
Good:
Armies with good players

Bad:
Armies with bad players

Done .

This one is correct.

redbaron998
01-02-2009, 00:01
While everything is dependednt on the player, youd be foolish not to see that some armies are better/worse than others.

Best:
Orks (Everything in 5th edition, running, scoring etc.) is in the favor.
CSM: Very good troops and utility
SM: Utility

Worse:
DE: to old
DH: To old

Ge_X
01-02-2009, 00:17
Where would you all rank 13th company in 5th ed? I don't fare to badly with them but then again I only play with 3 other players.......

The_Outsider
01-02-2009, 00:21
Where would you all rank 13th company in 5th ed? I don't fare to badly with them but then again I only play with 3 other players.......

Much like they have always been - win big or lose big.

Therefore, somewhere around the middle.

senorcardgage
01-02-2009, 00:28
Strongest: Orks, chaos, Nids

Weakest: Demon hunters, Dark eldar, Guard

Aegesdotter
01-02-2009, 01:04
Strongest:
Dark Eldar
Tyranids
Space Marines

Weakest:
Necrons
Demon Hunters
Tau

There isn't nothing better than go to play a game, and my opponent ask me "Which race are you playing?" answering him "Dark Eldar" while he starts making and evil smile and laugh off. But at the end comes the reality, and then is when he goes crying home.

Dark eldar has rise up a bit more on the 5th edition, but still a hard army to play with it.

I wish the new codex is going to be as good as our oldie one is.

Ravenheart
01-02-2009, 01:08
Good to see, that especially the list of strongest armies vary a lot.

Though, I didn't expect Deamons of Chaos to be mentoned as astrong army that often.

ReveredChaplainDrake
01-02-2009, 01:49
Strongest:
-Orks (absolutely broken codex)
-Chaos Marines (extreme power builds, lash being merely one)
-Tyranids (it's less about their actual power than what the expectation of Nidzilla does to "balanced lists" in the metagame)

Weakest:
-Dark Angels (can't have power builds, but have to take the nerfs anyway)
-Necrons (they roll up like a red carpet, and by the time they can retaliate it's too late)
-Daemonhunters (if it's not an actual GK, chances are it's overpriced or useless)

Lame Duck
01-02-2009, 01:57
Strongest:
Orks
Chaos Marines
Tyranids

Weakest:
IG
Daemonhunters
Necrons



Good:
Armies with good players

Bad:
Armies with bad players

Done .

Pit a balanced ork list vs a balanced DH list a few times, even switch players. There will definately be a strong tendency for one of the armies to win, being orks.

Hellgore
01-02-2009, 14:00
Strongest:
Chaos Space Marines
Orks
Space Marines

Weakest:
Demonhunters
Necons
Imperial Guard

Tyron
01-02-2009, 20:03
For those saying Chaos Space Marines as a strong army are you just referring to dual lash armies or something else?

The_Outsider
01-02-2009, 20:07
For those saying Chaos Space Marines as a strong army are you just referring to dual lash armies or something else?

Chaos are strong full stop - they have the single best troop section in the game in addition to some very powerful supporting units (chosen, possessed [In before i'm a n00b], obliterators, havocs etc) - plus marks for units to help beef up their abilities.

Bloodknight
01-02-2009, 20:32
Chaos is good, as long as you don't keep slavishly to a cult list in the sense of the cults in the old codex, and some choices are not as good as others (I am looking at you, Nurgle Raptors and Terminators in comparison to your good Slaaneshi and Khornate friends).

Some of their army concepts are weaker than their parts (Deathguard and TS), a slightly mixed army yields far better results.

maelstrom66669
01-02-2009, 22:19
Strongest: chaos marines
space marines
eldar

Weakest: tau
imperial guard
orks

My opinions are based solely on what I prefer to play against, I use a CSM khorne, close combat army, Ive yet to play against eldar, but Ive heard enough to know it wont be easy...

massey
01-02-2009, 23:07
Strong:
Orks
Space Wolves
Nids

Weak:
Necrons
Tau
Guard



Dark Eldar I have a hard time ranking. The only Dark Eldar player around here cheats like it's going out of style and so people rarely like to play him (6" moves somehow manage to cover about 8" or 9" or so if you aren't watching him like a hawk). But they're fast as can be, and he wins a lot. I often wonder how good they'd be if they were played by someone who wouldn't cheat you blind. I think they have to go into the weaker side because there are simply some lists they don't have an answer for.

Reinholt
01-02-2009, 23:28
Before I reply, allow me to state my caveats:

1 - I am assuming the army is played by a highly skilled player.

2 - I am assuming the player is using one of the genuinely competitive lists in the codex, not playing purely for background material.

3 - I am also assuming the player is playing against other skilled players who will not be surprised by the army (so no "shock value" for less common armies).

4 - I am assuming this is in the current tournament metagame environment.

Thus, with all that said...

Unquestionably Badass

Eldar
Always were good, continue to be good. They can match up well with any army, are a good counter to some of the more common builds currently used in tournaments (especially in mechanized or some of their specialized builds), and are not the army people build to beat. If I had to play in a tournament with the goal purely being to win, and not knowing in advance who I was facing, I'd take Eldar.

Orks
Every single thing in the codex is good (perhaps too good). Players still build to beat marines and not to remove large blocks of guys, compounded with the fact that the one thing you'd want a large-block-of-guys-remover for can't really be taken out easily (nob bikerz), and you get a power army. Ork players, object all you want, but I recently played a friend of mine I usually beat who now has Orks with the nob bikerz. He beat me, which was a very infrequent occurrence when he was still playing his Chaos; we traded armies, and I had pretty much wiped him off the table in turn three with me playing the Orks. You do the math. Compounding this is the fact that there are multiple power builds for Orks, and you can see they are going to be the army to beat on the tournament scene in the near future.

Chaos Space Marines
Because they pack some of the best troops choices in the game along with the single most broken psychic power in the game. Not to mention they also have a few potential power builds, and can defy the usual MEQ weaponry not through fielding a horde, but rather through superior maneuvering due to lash. A very tough army to face.

Badass with a little luck or a good matchup

Dark Eldar
A very solid army. Quick and deadly in the hands of a skilled player. I would rate them higher if it were not for the fact that the two armies that can run with them consistently are Eldar and Orks.

Witch Hunters
Great against those who don't know how to play them. Good but not quite great against those who are familiar with how to beat them or can simply outrun them. They match up well against Orks (minus perhaps the nob bikerz), but in my experience, they match up very poorly against Eldar and Dark Eldar (hard to use short range firepower when you can't catch your opponent), otherwise I'd also rate them higher.

Unquestionably Poor

Daemonhunters
Virtually everything is under-gunned, over-priced, and unwieldy. It's the single worst codex currently in the game. I feel for the DH players out there. They work much better as bits and pieces of allies than as an actual codex.

Necrons
The glancing changes, the combat resolution changes, and the continued emphasis 5th edition has placed on railing their troops (therefore causing them to phase out) has only compounded every problem they had in 4th, while the only strength they have gained is the additional toughness of the Monolith, which was already ridiculously tough. Can you win with them? Yes, but you work overtime to do it. Can you win with them against a power list from one of the top tier armies if the other player is as good as you (or better)? Not without a ridiculous amount of luck.

Imperial Guard
Terrible in close combat, as always, but now they have to move to grab objectives more frequently, give up too many kill points, and have to arrange in very odd ways to avoid granting the opponent cover saves constantly when shooting. While Tau have suffered some of the same slaps that Guard have in 5th Ed, I think guard did slightly worse, and thus they narrowly edge Tau for the last spot on the less than competitive side. On the upside, new codex incoming, so this army has potential to move up quickly, unlike the other two on this list.

Orkeosaurus
02-02-2009, 00:18
I think Reinholt gave a good summary of the power levels.

I'd probably put everything in the same place as him.

willydstyle
02-02-2009, 01:20
I know that this is purely anecdotal evidence, but I think that people make a mistake when they discount guard.

I think that due to the somewhat flavorless nature of humans-in-space compared to knights-in-space, orks-in-space, elves-in-space, etc combined with the gargantuan task of actually building and painting a guard army for use in tournaments, you simply don't see many guard players in tournaments.

A friend of mine has been winning a tournament series in California, and winning a lot. He's playing against players who attend and often place well at GTs. He's brought Chaos, and Orks mostly in the past, and the tournament organizers have even gone so far as to tailor some of the tourney rules against him.

This last weekend he brought Imperial Guard and still smashed the tournament. He earned best general, and was 3 points off of best overall because someone cheesed his sportsmanship score. 3 of the 4 missions used KPs in some way.

As a chaos player, one of my hardest matchups is a good Imperial Guard player. Be it pie plates, or drop troops with plasma and melta of doom, the Guard army has ways of crippling their opponent to the point that the disparity between KPs on the table and actual KPs earned is not such a big deal. Sure you may bring 12 KPs and the guard bring 20, but when they earn 6 KPs in one round of shooting, your ability to catch up is going to be highly hampered.

I think I've got a 50% win rate against guard at this point (not counting totally noobish players). I've won the local monthly league once, and placed in the top 3 several times. It doesn't mean I'm a wonderful player, but that I am at least above average in my playing environment. I truly fear what the new guard codex will bring, because it feels like they're getting the Orks treatment: lets make everything cheaper and better!

Codsticker
02-02-2009, 02:24
The Orks certainly seem to do well right now: they are consisitently placing high at tournaments and based on my own experience with two local players (one of which could barely manage a draw with the previous codex, has been getting more than his fair share of wins lately).

Up untill about a week ago I would have said that DH are the weakest of the bunch, for several reasons already stated, but then I went on 2-0-2 streak against a variety of opponents, including Orks. :eek: :D

Orkeosaurus
02-02-2009, 03:01
(one of which could barely manage a draw with the previous codex,Don't forget that the previous codex was as bad as this one is good.

Not being able to do well with it isn't solely matter of skill.

Krootblade
02-02-2009, 03:14
It's not simply a matter of weakest/strongest codex or simply skill. Luck and list are what I put my money in.

I can easily kill footslogging marines down to the man with no losses with my Tau due to jump-shoot-jump. However if I play against the same army that has added DS, infiltrate, etc. Then it will be a much more difficult game.

Orks vs Orks are a good example, between two of these lists the one with more mobility will win out simply due to furious charge.

banik
02-02-2009, 03:19
Orks
Chaos Space Marines
Space Marines
---
Daemonhunters
Tyranids (Non-Bugzilla)
IG

Nym
02-02-2009, 03:36
Playing Orks (an army people usually rate as "top-tier") and Imperial Guard (an army people usually rate as "lowest-tier"), I'm somewhat split on the subject.

The Guard community on Warseer seem to think that paying 85pts for a BS3 Lascanon is a good thing, and that you have to bring 100+ basic guardsmen to be considered a true guard player. Strangely enough, I've never had any sucess with mass guardsmen, while bringing 3 Russes, some Hellhounds and a few deepstriking Plasma/Melta-wielding Veterans to the table has always been rewarding.

I'll probably class the mass infantry Guard in the Lowest-tier then, and the Mech Guard in the Middle-tier.

On the Greenskin subject, the only problem is see with their codex is the extreme "180 boyz green tide list", which is a pain to play with or against, and is usually not seen outside tournaments or play-to-win gamers. I understand why Nob Bikerz bother MEQ players, but they're not so frightening from a Guard / Ork point of view.

Alx_152
02-02-2009, 06:15
The best:
The last 3 codices

The worst
Pure Grey Knights
13th company

The rest is in between.

willydstyle
02-02-2009, 06:57
Playing Orks (an army people usually rate as "top-tier") and Imperial Guard (an army people usually rate as "lowest-tier"), I'm somewhat split on the subject.

The Guard community on Warseer seem to think that paying 85pts for a BS3 Lascanon is a good thing, and that you have to bring 100+ basic guardsmen to be considered a true guard player. Strangely enough, I've never had any sucess with mass guardsmen, while bringing 3 Russes, some Hellhounds and a few deepstriking Plasma/Melta-wielding Veterans to the table has always been rewarding.

I'll probably class the mass infantry Guard in the Lowest-tier then, and the Mech Guard in the Middle-tier.

On the Greenskin subject, the only problem is see with their codex is the extreme "180 boyz green tide list", which is a pain to play with or against, and is usually not seen outside tournaments or play-to-win gamers. I understand why Nob Bikerz bother MEQ players, but they're not so frightening from a Guard / Ork point of view.

You play a guard army similar to my friends, a combination tank/drop guard. What do you think of pure drop guard armies?

Zee
02-02-2009, 11:47
I play necrons and SOB,

both rated "weak" armies, I havent lost /drawm a game in 10 months

Tactics beat "power creep" any day

alphastealer
02-02-2009, 12:15
Reinholt forgot to mention where Tyranids fit into his equation, unless of course they are slap bang in the middle, ie: not being too good or too bad.

As a Tyranid player I have redone my army when 5th ed came out with decent results. I tried out my current 1650 point config this last weekend which included 2x dakka tyrants, 3x barbed strangler fexes (1 elite), 3x zoanthropes and the rest gaunts and stealers with flesh hooks.

I took on a 132 model ork army that included a battlewagon with my 60 model tyranid list and wiped the orks out to the boy in 5 turns...and my rolls were not always good. There is something beautiful about dropping 3x barbed strangler templates and having 2 tyrants doing re-rolls on 12 dice to upset anyone.

I know I am going to suffer a bit against massed heavy armour tanks but I am hopeful that one of those armies will worry about coming up against a double lash 9 obliterator chaos army in round 1 and therefore tone down the tanks a bit.

Marlow
02-02-2009, 13:00
The Best: Ork, Eldar, Chaos Marines
All these three have really good Troop Choices (Ork Boyz, Nobs, Dire Avengers, Wraithguard, Plague Marines, etc) which is very important to 5th Ed. They also have powerful HQ (Farseer, Lash Prince) and good support units.

The Worst: Guard, Necron and pure Deamon Hunter
Grey Knights are alright on their own and good when allied with Marines however Inquisitors are just not worth it and many of the other units are quite weak. Necron are mostly a one trick pony.

Reinholt
02-02-2009, 13:06
Reinholt forgot to mention where Tyranids fit into his equation, unless of course they are slap bang in the middle, ie: not being too good or too bad.

Tyranids I think are good without being great, necessarily. Same with the new Space Marines (though I need more time to tinker with them), for instance. In other words, you can do quite well with them, but I haven't found it to be the case that you just overpower someone with no skill at all. Part of why I rate them a bit lower now is that their best tactic (Nidzilla) is somewhat confounded by 5th edition's emphasis on troops; it's entirely possible to force draws at worst when playing against a Tyranid army if you are fast enough to dodge the big bugs and eliminate their troops early.

In other words, the army is plenty good, but the meta-game has moved away from them just enough that I don't think they are in the top 3 and I didn't mention them as underrated like the DE and WH because Tyranids, I think, are pretty much well regarded in most places.


I play necrons and SOB,

both rated "weak" armies, I havent lost /drawm a game in 10 months

Tactics beat "power creep" any day

Agreed, which is why I added that caveat of both players being highly skilled for my part. Any army played by a total ***** will almost always lose to an army played by a good player, regardless of which armies they are.

Nym
02-02-2009, 16:06
What do you think of pure drop guard armies?

I only played a pure drop guard about 3 times, and all under 4th edition. First 2 games I lost so badly I won't even talk about it, 3rd game I won in 4 turns with all my units landing where I wanted them and above average rolls with the Plasmas / Meltas.

It's probably a bit better with 5th edition since the Deepstrike mishaps are less radical.

Overall I'd class Drop Guard in the middle-tier, though I certainly lack the skills required to play it to this standard.

Orkeosaurus
02-02-2009, 16:20
I've seen mass guard played very well too though.

Slaughtered my orks and my friend's mech guard. Nasty stuff.

The_Outsider
02-02-2009, 16:31
Guard are not - nor have they ever been - weak, the problem is it is so easy to build a dodgy list given the nature of the codex, but if one can build a list with high internal synergy you can have an army that is nearly untouchable.

Codsticker
02-02-2009, 20:34
Don't forget that the previous codex was as bad as this one is good.

Not being able to do well with it isn't solely matter of skill.

That is my point.

Orkeosaurus
02-02-2009, 21:10
That is my point.Ah!

Okay then. :D