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View Full Version : Strength 4 Kroxigors are ridiculous



turtle123
31-01-2009, 16:34
Come on now... They tower over saurus warriors have a longer reach and huge muscles too... completely goes against all previous fluff with Kroxis being beasts of burden.

I haven't read the new book yet, but am curious to see how they pulled this one off in the new fluff.

Rather disappointed as really like the way Kroxis look, big big bigger (previously stonger) cousins of the saurus...

Oh well, will still field them in units of skinks. Is anyone here still going to field units of Kroxis?

Coram_Boy
31-01-2009, 16:40
They are strength 4 with great weapon, not just strength 4. they are better as units than mixed though, if mathhammer is to be believed.

Bloodknight
31-01-2009, 16:40
Well, most Ogre sized monsters are S4 so they don't get to S7 with great weapons. There are exceptions like Ogre Maneaters, but they cost close to 90 points with a GW.

W0lf
31-01-2009, 16:48
Its weird and a bit sad but i think people over-exagerate the effect.

Neknoh
31-01-2009, 17:02
Strength

Is

Not

Only

Brute

Strength


Strength is damage potential of the beast, and here we are looking at unarmed strength 4 creatures, most other things strength four either have big claws or some sort of weapon in their hands, these are strength 4 unarmed, suggesting raw strength, meaning that they are, indeed, stronger than Saurii. If we now add their greatweapons on top, they get to strength 6, similar to Chaos Warriors with Greatweapons and a lot of GW wielding characters out there... but these are smaller, how is it explained, that they are equally strong? NO! They have the same damage potential as the Kroxigors but they achieve it in another way.

StarFyreXXX
31-01-2009, 17:02
they really should have just increased the cost of krox and left them str 7 OR make them str 5, and give them halberds. Make more sense since the new models are huge compared to saurus, yet now they are str 4 just like saurus.

retarded....

Sanjay

Braad
31-01-2009, 17:02
I guess it was a bit problematic that chariots we're always nearly auto-destroyed by these beasties. While a base strength of 4 might be low, and 5 more appropriate, I think a S of 7 was a bit too much. Maybe they could have better given them weapons of +1S, instead of reducing their base value.

Trolls are S5, which I think are quite comparable, so S4 is a bit low for such a creature.

---EDIT--- Ninja'd by Starfyre... ARGH!

Chiron
31-01-2009, 17:18
At last your down to Ushabti levels, mwuhahahaha!

Condottiere
31-01-2009, 17:21
What weapons would they have given them, Ogre clubs? Halberds are a tad sophisticated.

Chadjabdoul
31-01-2009, 17:32
The idea goes a bit like this:
S3 man
S4 ogre
S5 troll (traditionally a very strong creature)
S6 giant

While a base S of 4 for kroxigor does seem low, (and since warhammer is a d6 based system) nothing in hand to hand should hit with greater strength than a giant bringing down his club on your head.

Perhaps in the next edition they make great weapons +1S so kroxigor base can be 5 (which feels more appropriate to be honest)

Shamfrit
31-01-2009, 17:42
You whine about this when you've got the Engine of the Gods bomb spell?

Dear me.

Bac5665
31-01-2009, 17:51
You whine about this when you've got the Engine of the Gods bomb spell?

Dear me.

How is this remotely related? That "spell" is way too random. Its a last ditch effort to save a 400 point model from being ganked. Maybe I'm missing something, but its far from overpowered.

Kroxigor have always been S7. It has never been a balance issue. While they could smash through the broad side of a barn, they can't actually hit it. Getting Krox to hit something in the first place is really risky, and they aren't that resilient. Without their S7, they have nothing going for them. Ironguts are better, and much cheaper. With WS3 and no CR, they'd better be S7. Otherwise they just won't do anything.

Ogre maneaters aren't a great comparison since they are universally thought to be overpriced. And they have that all important WS, and 4 attacks. They are beasts, and better in a ton of ways than krox. They should cost more, but most people think they should cost less than they do.

Dragon Ogres have WS4 and 4 Wounds. And M7. If you really think those things aren't worth the 20 point price difference and that the difference comes just from the GWs, I can't help you. Without any one of the those massive advantages, S7 on its own isn't that big of a deal, and, I will point out, lizardmen players were fine with a points increase on the Krox if they kept S7. I don't thing it would have been necessary, but 5-10 points more a model wouldn't be a terrible compromise. Krox just aren't like any other unit in the game. All they have going for them is brute strenght. Reducing that really takes away from them, both in actually game value and in fluff and feel.

Bloodknight
31-01-2009, 17:58
Ironguts are better how? Worse save, same WS, same S, not cold-blooded.They're cheaper, yes, but not better.

Condottiere
31-01-2009, 18:00
Possibly someone will discover a synergy between skinks and kroxigors. S6 is really hard, S7 is meant to knock down barns.

Bac5665
31-01-2009, 18:02
Alright, my bad on the ironguts, I thought they were WS4. At WS3, they are worse, and priced as such. That particular point is withdrawn.

Finnigan2004
31-01-2009, 18:05
Kroxigor were too good last edition, so got nerfed.
It's about the only thing that was actually reduced in power though...everything else seems to have been given a boost in power.

I don't have the book, but skinks look to have gotten hit pretty hard with the nerf stick, and possibly salamanders too. I will probably still use kroxigors sometimes because I like the models, but it looks like a case of GW cutting a little too deep in an effort to increase stegadon sales :angel:.

Bloodknight
31-01-2009, 18:07
Maneaters are WS4, Ironguts and Bulls are WS3 :). But as I said before: Maneaters are very expensive pointswise, and a rare choice for OK armies.

Leogun_91
31-01-2009, 18:08
Ironguts are supposed to be able to lift grown up Bull Rhinoxen they have S4, they would be more fitting than the Kroxigors to have it beacouse a bull rhinoxen is really heavy (hell two ironguts would probobly be able to lift a steamtank with ease if you go by fluff), still itīs the Kroxigors that has unfittingly low S, I canīt see why.

Finnigan2004
31-01-2009, 18:09
Agreed, but I have to point out that ogre armies are not exactly overpowered either. I suspect that we will see less kroxigors very quickly with the new book. Not saying it's good or bad, just saying that there will be a rush on the new stegadons.

Shamfrit
31-01-2009, 18:13
It is very much related - you've lost somethings and gained some incredible defences and weaponry to back up the balancing - the no armour saves part of the spell makes it very, very good - especially against Knights, cavalry and heavy strong things that would otherwise threaten it.

Kroxidors got cheaper for a loss of a point of strength. Why is this so 'bad?'

Frankly
31-01-2009, 18:24
Because they lost str7 attacks for 3 pts. They can't charge through skink lines.

As a long time Southlands player, I'm going to miss str7 against T5 and/or high armour values.

I don't know if we need a thread to vent this lose, but still I'm a little down hearted about the whole thing

PARTYCHICORITA
31-01-2009, 18:31
I agree with you S4 kroxis was a stupid unnecesary move from the designers. I can't imagine the conversation that lead to "hey, remember that ok and unique monster unit in the book? let's take away the one thing that makes it speacial".

To me it makes no sense speacially since creatures that seem smaller (like many models in the Ogre Kingdoms book, bloodletters, flesh hounds, treekin) have basic S5.

Kroxigors share Strenght value with DE executioners for gods sake.

Condottiere
31-01-2009, 18:45
Ogres are as strong as White Lions.

MURPH
31-01-2009, 18:47
I agree with you S4 kroxis was a stupid unnecesary move from the designers. I can't imagine the conversation that lead to "hey, remember that ok and unique monster unit in the book? let's take away the one thing that makes it speacial".

To me it makes no sense speacially since creatures that seem smaller (like many models in the Ogre Kingdoms book, bloodletters, flesh hounds, treekin) have basic S5.

Kroxigors share Strenght value with DE executioners for gods sake.

Ah, what does it matter what base strength they are? They swing at strength 6. It is sufficient to deal with most things. Anything bigger, you need a carni to deal with. I am enjoying my anvil unit of temple guard pinning a hammer unit in place and then smashing it to bits with a flank charge of kroxigors.

Just as a side note...I REAAALLLY want people to stop comparing stuff to the daemons book. Daemon units are not comparable to much else. GW messed up with that one. Just because kroxigors are not comparable(strength wise) to flesh hounds/bloodletters does not make them a bad unit.


I probably won't hear you complain when those strength 6 kroxigors open up a can of knights, or tear through the flank of those chosen.

Statistically they still do what they were meant to. Skink units now come into their own for you. The screen is more effective now that you can redirect that unit of knights so that you hit in the flank with your kroxigors.

Maybe I am the only one having success with them...I dunno.

MURPH

Kodamas
31-01-2009, 18:49
Strength isn't just how strong a unit is it is how effectively they can bring their strength to bear on the enemy.

Example:
Saurus S4 because they are bred to kill and every muscle in their body is designed to cause the most damage. They have an instinct to hit in a certain way to cause pain and dent armour etc.

Kroxigors S4 because they re hulking monsters who carry large blocks up temple ruins all day. They are not bred to fight they are bred to rebuild and just get made to fight if the need be. They would probably be a lot stronger than most Saurus but they don't instinctively know how to use it and how to use it effectively to cause the most damage.

Just my 2p.

Harwammer
31-01-2009, 19:14
Honestly, I always thought Str5 was silly on krox.

Their strength should be in line with basic ogres, minotaurs and ushabi.
Strength four is the basic strength for most weapon wielding large base infantry.

Trolls are str 5 because they are mutated by chaos energy/do not get upgrade options; dragon ogres and maneaters get strength 5 because they are super-elite large base infantry.

Obviously it must suck to lose str 5 basic, but really str 3 is the basic strength for normal infantry (4 for elite) and str 4 is basic strength for large infantry (5 for elite/trolls).

If there was an elite strain of kroxigor bred for battle rather than brick-laying , then yes, that option should probably be strength 5. The other option would be for str 5 krox not to have weapon options, as it is for trolls.

As it is, kroxigor are no more deserving of str 5 than a human mason is of strength 4.

MURPH
31-01-2009, 19:22
as it is, kroxigor are no more deserving of str 5 than a human mason is of strength 4.

curse you valten!!!!

Shamfrit
31-01-2009, 19:24
Not to mention that would mean a Krox is the same Strength as a Shaggoth...:p

Jormi_Boced
31-01-2009, 19:47
I think it just seems weird since the Saurus are four. They could have kept the base strength 5 and gave them a special weapon rule like call them brutish weapons and state they give a +1 strength. Then they would still drop to six strength, but it wouldn't seem so outrageous that they are the same strength as a basic Saurus.

Bloodknight
31-01-2009, 19:49
@Harwammer: Ushabti are actually base S6, they fight with "huge ritual blades" which is a fancy name for "just a stick that doesn't confer any boni or mali". They suck for their cost, though.

innerwolf
31-01-2009, 19:51
I probably won't hear you complain when those strength 6 kroxigors open up a can of knights, or tear through the flank of those chosen.



You kill 1/3 less cavalry with strength 6. I think it's a significant drop on performance for only 3 points less.



Strength isn't just how strong a unit is it is how effectively they can bring their strength to bear on the enemy.

Example:
Saurus S4 because they are bred to kill and every muscle in their body is designed to cause the most damage. They have an instinct to hit in a certain way to cause pain and dent armour etc.



If Saurus are master of precision strikes like those, why they have WS 3?
I don't like the "dagger master wound as easily as dumb behemot" theory.
Brute strength also modify armour in a way finesse couldn't.


Not to mention that would mean a Krox is the same Strength as a Shaggoth...

I think shaggots have St 6...

Neknoh
31-01-2009, 19:58
I don't like the "dagger master wound as easily as dumb behemot" theory.


me neither, a daggermaster should wound more often than brute strength. As for modifying armoursaves, you are looking at saurus breaking joints by striking at them whereas the kroxigor smash the arm. By virtue of the nature on armour, we are again looking at the breakage of wrong angle being EASIER than smashing through the armour enough.

If both bash the chest, then yes, the Saurus might not cause as much damage, but when the saurus bashes against the neck, under an arm, at the hip or a knee whilst the kroxigor smashes in with a fist, then the same modifyer is similar.

A Saurus has its muscles modified for explosive output and knows where to put the weight of his blow, this does not make him a master swordman, but he can still put enough force in an explosive preassure to strike through armour with the same force a sweeping, lounging kroxigor fist would. Take a boxer versus someone working with heavy lifting that has never boxed in his entire life. The boxer will either match or outmatch the damage output of the lifter without even being particularly good, simply because he has learnt to strike.

Kodamas
31-01-2009, 20:03
If Saurus are master of precision strikes like those, why they have WS 3?
I don't like the "dagger master wound as easily as dumb behemot" theory.
Brute strength also modify armour in a way finesse couldn't.


I They are coldblooded and instinctive rather than trained to use their weapons.
Nature VS Nurture
Hitting to cause pain I think is different from hitting to effectively to disable your opponent.

Saurus know how to use their body to cause pain and their body is made to receive pain and shrug it off (Scaly Skin) they are not about the finesse they are about using their body as a weapon because that is all they know. A blunt, brutal yet effective weapon.

However if you train and have more skill (WS) then you will be able to avoid the Saurus attacks more effectively. Plus a Saurus is still a hulking creature compared to a man.

innerwolf
31-01-2009, 20:03
A Saurus has its muscles modified for explosive output and knows where to put the weight of his blow, this does not make him a master swordman, but he can still put enough force in an explosive preassure to strike through armour with the same force a sweeping, lounging kroxigor fist would. .

And this accurate anatomical and phisiological information comes from where? Discovery Channel: Lustria?

I don't see why we have to suppose Saurus and Kroxigor have differently built muscles. It could be like that, but we don't know it.

theunwantedbeing
31-01-2009, 20:09
St7 is 25% more deadly.
St6 is 20% less deadly.
That's 0.2 wounds less caused to anything with a 2+ save.

Vs a 1+ save (empire knights and chaos knights)
St7 is 33% more lethal.
St6 is 25% less deadly.

So only vs 1+ saves do you get the whole "1/3rd less wounds caused"
Most cavalry doesnt get a 1+ save.

Simialrly vs t5 things a st6 hit is plenty to negate the save usually.
So you go from 1.25 wounds, to "only" 1 wound. 20% less damage.
T5 things arent all that common, the only ranked unit of t5 is treekin.

How much of an enemy army is made of 3+ save troops or better? Not a huge amount. (say 25%)
How much of an enemy army is made of t5 troops? Not a lot. (say 5%)
So let's average those out shall we.
They got a 6% drop in cost.
So they should have had a 6% drop in cost gives a......25 x .22 (average of the 3 above figures) = 0.055.
So they got 6% chaper and 5.5% less useful.

So...they're better value by 0.5% now.
And people are complaining??????

Tyranno1
31-01-2009, 20:11
I never liked the idea of S4 krox and just today got to test them out. Rubbish, I sent them out agaisnt some empire knights (a target they normally are suited for countering), got the charge off.

Got about 5 hits in, all wounds saved, the kroxigor could only reduce the knights armour save to a 4+. Not impressed in the slightest.

Strikeing this topic up with a few players and staff they said it was for "ingame balance". Am I missing something? What exactly needed to be balanced? The lizardmen list is hardly gamebreakingly powerful leaving the kkrox alone would have been fine, hell increasing the points slightly and keeping S7 would have been fine. And niether were they broken before, WS3 means you cant hit for squat.

But now the have lost thier one purpose, can opening. Thier low WS means you cant go out unit murdering with them, or tackle elite infantry. As I see it, they are a completly pointless entry in the list.

Just my thoughts and experiences.

Shamfrit
31-01-2009, 20:19
Well, no, they're not as good.

But frankly, when you can flay Knights alive at range and then close Krox in to support infantry like every other monster in the game! The, suddenly it's not such a big deal.

4D6 blowshot shots and a few razordons should sufficiently weaken things to get Krox back into the can smashing fray.

Lordy
31-01-2009, 20:30
Strenght 4 does seem abit low for such a large creature, i like what a previous poster said about making them strenght 5 with Halberds.

Neknoh
31-01-2009, 20:34
And this accurate anatomical and phisiological information comes from where? Discovery Channel: Lustria?

I don't see why we have to suppose Saurus and Kroxigor have differently built muscles. It could be like that, but we don't know it.

Muscles do NOT need to be different on a basic anatomical level, I drew a perfectly fine comparison to a boxer and a person working with lifting and pulling stones all of his life. This changes the muscular structure in the arms, the boxer will be able to crack your ribs, whilst the other person might give you a severe bruise if he puts his might into it. However, the lifter would be able to hold a weight for a longer period of time or pull something over a larger distance compared to the boxer.

Now, we make the other person a LOT bigger and suddenly we find them hitting with the same, rib cracking power

EDIT: Furthermore, we know the Kroxigors are bread as beasts of burden, whilst the Saurii are bread for war, the Saurii are strong and able to endure, true, but they are strong in a different way. Much like the worker and the boxer

Shamfrit
31-01-2009, 20:41
The Shaggoth is base strength 6, true, so a Kroxidor hitting at STR7 hits harder than a Shaggoth does....don't think so...although the Shaggoth can be STR8 so it's a moot point.

Bloodknight
31-01-2009, 20:51
Strenght 4 does seem abit low for such a large creature, i like what a previous poster said about making them strenght 5 with Halberds.

Except for some fluff argument: what would it change? S6 is S6, how they get it isn't interesting at all. It wouldn't even change the way they're fighting since they are I1 creatures.

SonofUltramar
31-01-2009, 21:07
Honestly, I always thought Str5 was silly on krox.

Their strength should be in line with basic ogres, minotaurs and ushabi.
Strength four is the basic strength for most weapon wielding large base infantry.

Well done that man, common sense prevails, totally agree


@Harwammer: Ushabti are actually base S6, they fight with "huge ritual blades" which is a fancy name for "just a stick that doesn't confer any boni or mali". They suck for their cost, though.

they suck, alot, but they do look cool

Tyranno1
31-01-2009, 21:27
Well done that man, common sense prevails, totally agree



they suck, alot, but they do look cool

So you say that all monster infantry should be the same strength? You know I prefer veriety, to all monsters on the same size base must be the same.

Kroxigors were actually the only good ones out of that base size, ogres,ushabtis,trolls (and you know it)( (the main reason minos dont suck is becuase you can give them alot of different options for different jobs). Now that they are the same as everyone else, they suck as much as everyone else.

I think I prefered it before.

Shamfrit
31-01-2009, 21:42
Given that A) All monsters arn't the same strength, and B) Kroxidor got cheaper, cover, and have better special rules and C) the army itself got a severe boost in balance, Kroxidor dropping a single point of strength for a points cost is perfectly acceptable.

You've already got highly competant shooting, cheap as chips skirmishers, hard as hell flying monstrocities, magic to die for and very hard to kill monstrous creatures...

You wanted the best US3 monsters as well?

Good lord.

Tyranno1
31-01-2009, 21:52
Given that A) All monsters arn't the same strength, and B) Kroxidor got cheaper, cover, and have better special rules and C) the army itself got a severe boost in balance, Kroxigor dropping a single point of strength for a points cost is perfectly acceptable.

You've already got highly competant shooting, cheap as chips skirmishers, hard as hell flying monstrocities, magic to die for and very hard to kill monstrous creatures...

You wanted the best US3 monsters as well?

Good lord.

Minos 4, ogres 4, ushabtis 6 (as if they were 4 and have a great weapon), trolls do have 5 but are not exactly great now are they.

Kroxigor lost 3pts, wow. That hardly justifies the S loss. Also, they havent got better cover, or rules. The skink screen proveied cover agianst everything that wasnt being shot from a large target. And they could charge through it without worrying about skinks dieing and costing combat res.

Competent shooting, I do agree that the razers are nice, but are 12" range, so not exactly the greatest shooting around.
Cheap skirmishers, yes, but not as cheap as they used to be.
Hard as hell flying monsters? Where? Oh do you mean T3 terradons? I dont really count that as "hard as hell".
Magic to die for, hmmm I havent seen a slann in action yet so I cant comment here. But they seem to be more focused on keeping alive than casting spells.
Very hard to kill monsters? Yes, very overpriced monsters? Yes.


Yes they were the best US3 monsters, because all the others suck. I still found it hard to kill stuff with them in 6th ed with WS3 making most of tiher attacks miss.

GodlessM
31-01-2009, 22:10
Strength

Is

Not

Only

Brute

Strength


Strength is damage potential of the beast, and here we are looking at unarmed strength 4 creatures, most other things strength four either have big claws or some sort of weapon in their hands, these are strength 4 unarmed, suggesting raw strength, meaning that they are, indeed, stronger than Saurii. If we now add their greatweapons on top, they get to strength 6, similar to Chaos Warriors with Greatweapons and a lot of GW wielding characters out there... but these are smaller, how is it explained, that they are equally strong? NO! They have the same damage potential as the Kroxigors but they achieve it in another way.

Always one for useful insights, I have to agree with this interpretation completely.

Leogun_91
31-01-2009, 23:02
Ogres are as strong as White Lions.
White lions wrestle down huge lions with their bare hands so thatīs not that bad.

And this accurate anatomical and phisiological information comes from where? Discovery Channel: Lustria? Saurian facts yesterday had some cool facts canīt wait until next week when they will tell about skinks.

Cragspyder
31-01-2009, 23:42
Guess what folks, a bald dude with a big hammer (Warrior Priest for those who need me to spell it out) hits as hard as a Giant....oh and by the way that is also just as strong as a single shot from a Bolt Thrower. Why can't Giants or Warrior Priests cleave through entire ranks with their giant shockwave of power?

BTW, all these things hit harder then a mini-cannonball from an Organ Gun, which would hit just as hard as a normal cannonball (S10) if you really think about it, but for some reason it is only S5.

Strength is just a number, it does not mean ANYTHING except for what that number represents in WHFB terms. And that number is exactly what GW set it at to try and balance it in persepective to the rest of the game.

Other then that it means NOTHING.

innerwolf
31-01-2009, 23:46
...hard as hell flying monstrocities...

Please, tell me you wasn't talking about terradons...


Edit:
BTW, all these things hit harder then a mini-cannonball from an Organ Gun, which would hit just as hard as a normal cannonball (S10) if you really think about it, but for some reason it is only S5.

You know, more powder, more strength. Or maybe I'm mistaken. Anyway even if the cannonballs speed was the same, the heaviest would have more kinetic energy= more damage.

Condottiere
31-01-2009, 23:55
The Organ Gun definitely has a lower calibre; the gun was designed to hit a large number of troops, the cannon to smash through things.

Pavic
01-02-2009, 00:02
If we just had strength 4 1/2 this whole argument could be avoided :D

I have to say that I have always been really annoyed with large base infantry generally being strength 4. It has never made sense to me that ogres, minotaurs, etc are the same strength as many elite infantry units. I don't care how much a human, dwarf, or elf work out in the fantasy gym, they should not be as strong as an ogre.

It would be nice if GW had simply made large infantry base str 5 with appropriate strength adjustments for large monsters. It can't happen due to the way books cycle, but it would be nice.

Harwammer
01-02-2009, 00:07
If we just had strength 4 1/2 this whole argument could be avoided :D

I have to say that I have always been really annoyed with large base infantry generally being strength 4. It has never made sense to me that ogres, minotaurs, etc are the same strength as many elite infantry units.


Yes, but alot of ogre sized infantry's offensive abilities are represented by the increased attacks per model in addition to their elite level strength.

My argument that they have high attacks / model has weaknesses; their attacks per 20 mm of frontage is only 1.5, falling between that of a white lion and sword master. Basically ogre types are fast, survivable, fear causing elites but with little fixed CR to back them up.

Mouldsta
01-02-2009, 01:22
I agree with the "strength isn't brute strength" arguement - what it is is a measure of the likelyhood of them killing an enemy taking into account a variety of different factors, such as;
-Basic brute strength,
-Quality of weapon being used
-Knowledge of how to cripple an opponent, such as where to apply pressure, vunerable spots in armour etc.

This is the reason why a chaos marauder is the same "strength" as an elf - the marauder has the brute strength and a bit of knowledge, wheras the slighter elf has the advantage of a superior blade and better ability to make precision killing strokes (such as through the armpit), meaning that they are about equally likely to kill an opponent, just through completely different methods.

This is also therefore why a Dark Elf lord, with a perfectly honed blade, expert knowledge of every dirty trick and millimetre precision is as likely to kill someone as a krox punching them in the face with their bare knuckles, so in the game of warhammer they're both allocated the same "strength" value

Sarevok
01-02-2009, 01:48
WFB just has stupid strength values.

And for the "strength doesn't just equal brute strength" bridage - why is a Bloodthirster no stronger than a weedy looking Bloodletter on a Jugger? Surely at it's not because the Bloodletter has any more skill?

WFB Strength values are done with balance in mind, fluff means nothing.

Really 40K has far better values for Strength. Humans S3. Marines S4. Ogre-types S5. Monstrous creatures 6+.

Hrogoff the Destructor
01-02-2009, 01:53
I don't think they wanted them to have "too much" access to str. 7. Being able to field an army that can literally have a chariot buster in every squad was probably seen as a bad idea, and probably lost a point in strength as a result.

Makaber
01-02-2009, 02:27
The way the system works, there will always be "odd" stats out there. Right now the discussion is about Kroxigors, but it might as well be about Gors ("How come they're only Strength 3 when they're much larger than a man?") or Goblins ("How come they're as strong as a man when they're much smaller?"). As somebody said earlier, it would be a lot easier if something could have Strength 4.5.

The best solution I think is "in-between" rules: Gor champions are stronger than human ones. Orcs are strong enough to wield larger weapons than men, meaning they get to benefit from the Choppa rule.

Kroxigors being Strength 7 never sat really well with me because they didn't really sacrifice anything for it. They were like stronger, tougher ogres with better leadership and I never felt their post cost reflected how much better they were than other comparable great weapon armed large base infantry. After all, Strength 7 as opposed to Strength 6 is a pretty huge advantage, which is why a Dragon Ogre is nearly 80 points.

Maybe a "half-rule" like the Choppa would be the way to go? Strength 5 and armed with flails perhaps? The aforementioned ogre club? Or maybe just Strength 6 and a Choppa?

As a side note, I always found it a bit odd that large base infantry had their primary advantage over normal troops not in Strength, but number of attacks. It would seem more natural to me if an Ogre or a Minotaur had Strength 5, but only two Attacks, or something like that.

Anyway, the book is written, so moaning about it isn't going to change anything. I guess you Lizardmen guys have to settle on not having the best of everything. Ah damn, almost managed an entire post about Lizardmen without getting bitter and petty. :P

Neknoh
01-02-2009, 02:33
WFB just has stupid strength values.

And for the "strength doesn't just equal brute strength" bridage - why is a Bloodthirster no stronger than a weedy looking Bloodletter on a Jugger? Surely at it's not because the Bloodletter has any more skill?

WFB Strength values are done with balance in mind, fluff means nothing.

Really 40K has far better values for Strength. Humans S3. Marines S4. Ogre-types S5. Monstrous creatures 6+.

A Bloodthirster is essentially too large for skill and instead stomping and flailing and crushing and heaving his axe and feet and arms and whip around. The herald on the jugger wields a gigantic blade that has searing edges of aether and acid.

A Bloodthirster hits you, you are likely going to loose whatever it hits. A Bloodletter hitting you is likely to also cleave right through you, and against larger foes (higher toughness) we are looking at the bloodthirster punching a hole through the chest of the giant whilst the Bloodletter might sever a foot, thus rendering the giant unable to fight on.

Remember, bloodletters are still over 6 feet tall monsters of rage and pure muscle. Even if being lanky, try going against someone 6 feet tall weighing perhaps 90 kilos, he's rather slim but he's pretty damn hard. Now boost that strength a LOT from him being a daemon of Khorne... and add to that a sword as tall as you are that can cut through stonework and iron with relative ease when swung by him.

The Bloodletter or Herald (let's face it, a bloodthirster WILL be strength 7 or 8, whilst a herald will be strength 7) will also be better adapted for actual duels of skills as opposed to a brute force bloodthirster due to their size. And again, the Bloodthirster is actually often stronger than a bloodletter or herald.


And that scale is basically the same one we have in Warhammer fantasy battles.

Average to well trained Humanoids that are not naturally strong: S3 this is you and me if we'd go train swordfighting for ten years whilst also learning how to deal with enemies unarmed at the same time. This also applies to people who lack the finesse or quality of weapons but have the strength etc. As said, an elf will puncture your arteries and cut your tendons, a marauder or Orc will aim to pound you untill you give in.

Immensely well trained humanoids and your average run off the mill ogre type monsters:
S4, not same brute strength, but same potential to kill you, a Swordmaster or Executioner might not be able to tackle a horse, but they are looking at gutting you with a flick of their wrist and a shortsword.

Daemonically infused beasts, large monsters of war etc:
Strength 5, these are the things ripping your average joe human to pieces with beak, claw, bare hands etc. Chaos Lords, Vampire Lords, Ogre characters, Manticores, Griffons etc.

Dragons, Dragon Ogre Shaggoths, Giants etc. :
Strength 6, they'll pluck up an ogre and tear it in half, a character found here (sword of might for instance) will tear through enemies with the aid of a blade rather than the brute smashing power of a giant stomping down. Basically, a chaos lord disemboweling an ogre by cleaving it from head to toe has as high a chance of killing it as a giant stepping on it.


There, now it's late, I need sleep, night gentlemen

Shamfrit
01-02-2009, 02:36
Neknoh.

You just closed the thread with pwnsome.

Starlight? Anyone? Ta.

Night!

Horus38
01-02-2009, 05:03
S4 kroxs is a load of rubbish IMHO.

However!! I think it balances them out nicely so they're not such an obvious choice over other things in the list for being fast and hitting hard. They're hardly useless at S6, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Frep
01-02-2009, 05:17
I wonder what people would have thought if Kroxgors had str 6 amour piercing, not exactly correct for a large bludgeoning creature but hear me out.

The removal of str 7 was most likely a balancing issue, auto-killing of chariots and monster mashing was something that the devs probably were trying to avoid with krox's. But if krox's were able to hit at str 6 with armour piercing, they'd open knights up the same way as they used, I'm assuming most people were using them to kill of brettonians and empire knights most of time. Toughness 3 isn't going to make a distinction between strength 6 and seven, and the amour piercing gives the same net result as the old rules against a krox's main target but doesn't affect chariots or monsters (who generally don't have much for armour anyways) nearly as drastically

Neckutter
01-02-2009, 05:46
krox being S4 is stupid as hell. the LM writer is dumb as hell for making them S4. kroxigor are just a tad bigger than saurus, right? wouldnt you suppose that means they would be S5?

nod your heads, little kiddies.

EDIT: if they didnt want S7 krox, they should have given them S5, and "ritual weapons" that acted like halberds or something.

09Project
01-02-2009, 06:04
completely goes against all previous fluff with Kroxis being beasts of burden.

Kroxigors, the donkeys of the New World.

Condottiere
01-02-2009, 06:21
The problem might not be so much basic strength, but the modifications to it, as allowed by the use of certain weapons.

Besides, the overall strength range is too small and it seems unlikely we'll be looking at 10 for human norm and 25 for a blood thirster.

innerwolf
01-02-2009, 07:14
A Bloodthirster is essentially too large for skill and instead stomping and flailing and crushing and heaving his axe and feet and arms and whip around.

But, again, Bloodthirsters are WS 10. I wouldn't call this "stomping and flailing and crushing...". It sounds like it should have some skills, it's stats say it's the more skilled fighter in the Old World.

Avian
01-02-2009, 07:33
I'm frankly amazed that nobody has yet touched on what I believe to be the real reason they dropped the Strength value of Kroxigors down:

Kroxigors can now be taken as Core

Okay, you have to bring along a bunch of skinks, but a Strength 7 Core unit is pretty damn huge. Nobody has a Strength 7 Core unit, I assume this is deliberate and I for one am glad it is staying that way.

Aryakas
01-02-2009, 07:44
krox being S4 is stupid as hell. the LM writer is dumb as hell for making them S4. kroxigor are just a tad bigger than saurus, right? wouldnt you suppose that means they would be S5?

nod your heads, little kiddies.

EDIT: if they didnt want S7 krox, they should have given them S5, and "ritual weapons" that acted like halberds or something.

The reduction in str was most likely a balancing issue either to give the unit less of an advantage against chariots and other hard targets or bring them in line with what GW plans for all medium based large units in the future.

It's already been covered extremely well numerous times in this thread so I wont try to cover it again except to say that Str 4 with a GW vs base Str 6 is just semantics if we put the fluff aside (blasphemy but for the sake of argument). If they were Str 6 with large ritual blades people would complain just as much, I find it a little hard to believe that this matters to people anywhere near as much as the str reduction in general does though it seems to have become the main point of the argument against it.

Psiryu
01-02-2009, 08:43
I don't see how a Kroxigor having the same strength as a Saurus is any different than a human being as strong as a horse.

innerwolf
01-02-2009, 08:46
I don't see how a Kroxigor having the same strength as a Saurus is any different than a human being as strong as a horse.

Touché, man.

Neckutter
01-02-2009, 09:00
a horse with hooves vs a human with a sword? as far as killing power about the same, id say.

ANYWAYS, good luck with krox as core, since they bring squishy skinks with no banner along for the break test.

and i dont really care to play my other armies, as druchii are fun to play, look amazing on the table, and win most of the time.

turtle123
01-02-2009, 11:51
This is a pretty interesting conversation...

I actually don't mind the drop from s7 to s6 in terms of balancing game play with ogre sized monsters.

What does bother me is the inconsistency in the fluff.... And the fact that they are so darn huge compared to their saurus cousins.

Yes a s5 krox with a halberd would be fine.

I really like the new models, they look much better than the little sinewy lizzies of the 6th and less cartoonish than the earlier Jurassic Park kroxis... Yep, they did a good job making these fantasy creatures look realistic.

Pretty funny how I care so much about fluff and realism in a game with elves, orcs, and dwarves...

Disciple of Caliban
01-02-2009, 12:22
I wonder what people would have thought if Kroxgors had str 6 amour piercing, not exactly correct for a large bludgeoning creature but hear me out.

The removal of str 7 was most likely a balancing issue, auto-killing of chariots and monster mashing was something that the devs probably were trying to avoid with krox's. But if krox's were able to hit at str 6 with armour piercing, they'd open knights up the same way as they used, I'm assuming most people were using them to kill of brettonians and empire knights most of time. Toughness 3 isn't going to make a distinction between strength 6 and seven, and the amour piercing gives the same net result as the old rules against a krox's main target but doesn't affect chariots or monsters (who generally don't have much for armour anyways) nearly as drastically
i like this.

The book is out and we cant change anything, but this would have been an interesting idea. Still, from a balance point of view S6 is right, and poeple complaing about it going against the fluff, well come on, thats hardly new, fluff and rules have always been very seperate things!

Neknoh
01-02-2009, 12:36
krox being S4 is stupid as hell. the LM writer is dumb as hell for making them S4. kroxigor are just a tad bigger than saurus, right? wouldnt you suppose that means they would be S5?

nod your heads, little kiddies.

EDIT: if they didnt want S7 krox, they should have given them S5, and "ritual weapons" that acted like halberds or something.

Give me a sword, katana or european, your choice, then let me at another human, I have trained aiki weapons for four years now (aikido for four and a half) and if you gave me a sword, I am pretty damn sure that I would have an equal chance of killing a person as an MMA fighter twice my size fighting unarmed.

If you would've bothered to read the thread, this little kiddie would not need to correct the grownup person making a fool of himsmelf.


And weaponskill might indeed mean that they are the most skilled fighters of the old world, however, this has to do with hitting, dodging, parrying, blocking and natural reactions as well. If an elven swordmaster noble would run up a cliff and jump straight at a giant from there, the giant would probably shrug back and in cramp-like motions try to get the elf away, much like a human would a bee. The Bloodthirster would either punch the elf mid-air, sidestep the jumping elf and smash it into the ground with his fore or back arm whilst throwing his axe to the other arm so that when he spins after the sidestep he cleaves an incoming great-eagle mid air before letting go of the axe, hurling it sideways into the ranks of the dragon princes bearing down on the bloodletters.

Now, look at the size of bloodthirsters in artwork of different kinds, we are looking at a creature of IMMENSE size, wielding an axe of gigantic proportions. Now, the bloodthirster might have weaponskill ten, but that's ten points of hitting and dodging you, not ten points of aiming for a weakspot in your armour.

Strength is the chance to kill you and how well people can bypass armoursaves, some do it by bashing your entire torso into your spine with a fist, others do it by ripping you in half whilst others still hit your eyeslits, stab/cut through the chainmail at joints and generally fight relatively dirty.

There are also different ways of killing and incapacitating you, a dwarf will not aim to behead you, a dwarf might lock your foot with the hook of his axe (you know, the "beard" of the axe, placing it around your ankle/calf) before bashing your knee with his shield which will take you out of the combat just as well whilst an Orc will bash you wif 'is shield an' den bash you wif 'is 'ead an' den chop ya wif 'is choppa. A Saurus, which has higher strength, would bite your arm off or ripp it out of the socket. Perhaps partially crush your pelvis or tear your face open with the jagged edges of his shield, he could slam his weapon sideways into your helmeted face to cause your head to lift slightly and then taking your throat with another quick swipe, a bite or a claw, or even the edge of his shield. Which brings me to the point of the saurii.

Look at the saurus, EVERYTHING about them is a weapon, they can hit you with their tail, they can gut you with their shield, bite chunks out of you or crush bone with their jaws, their weapons are bronze and stone but tothed and wicked in appearance. The saurii eat, breathe and sunbathe war and killing, their bodies and even their SHIELDS are built for it.

This is completely opposite of the lumbering beasts of burden that are the kroxigors. The kroxigors are indeed immensely strong, but they do not know how to utilise it, they are given a huge club and pointed in the direction of the enemy, I am not saying they are stupid, but they are more likely to heft that club around, throwing around their weight when doing so than they are actively seeking to crush the heads of enemies.

Strength four kills a really rather hard humanoid (toughness 3) two thirds of the time with a single blow, and strength four is used to represent both the brute force doing this by snapping a neck or crushing a torso/leg/pelvis or by slitting the throat/lopping off an arm/disemboweling etc. etc. And since Ogres, who are able to tackle a horse, get strength four, we are talking of something the same, or perhaps higher, strength of a bear in brute strength. Then again, a bear will need more than one second to kill a man, this is where the increased ammount of attacks for Ogre sized models come in.

An Executioner might be strength four, meaning each of his hits are as likely to kill as each of the hits of a Kroxigor, BUT the kroxigor will throw its weight and bulk around whilst also heaving a gigantic log-sized weapon in huge arcs, hitting more enemies and actually hitting more times or with more ferocity, meaning it is deserving of more attacks. This is the route GW has taken to further distinguish large monsters from humanoids, we could all be looking at 1A per model with a D20 system where each and every weapon gives bonus strength rather than bonus attacks and where Ogre sized monsters have strength 13 or 14 to show just how killy they are.

At the moment, strength is the potential to kill or incapacitate you PER HIT, and again, getting hit by a sword or a mace in the face is probably as likely to bypass your armoursave as getting slammed in the chest by a fist that basically equates to a big morningstar (morningstars are attatched to the pole, flails are attatched to a chain, damn you gw :mad: ).

We could also look at this in a different perspective. An unarmed kroxigor has the same chance of killing an enemy as a well drilled and well trained professional human soldier armed with a halberd, that is really rather impresive I dare say. It is not the same chance as a well trained proffesional human ELITE soldier armed with a greatweapon (greatswords) killing you, but that person is likely to run a sword through your chest or throat or he'll have your leg by cutting the knee or breaking the kneecap. He can crush your jaw with the hilt of the sword etc, and he is actually rather quick when doing so.

An untrained, large-area blow to the chest might knock the air out of you but it wont capacitate you, same with a halberd slamming sideways into your head or chest, whilst a greatsword would probably kill you if you gave him the same opening. The Kroxigor and halberdier IS probably likely to follow up the innitial hit or take you out with the first hit (strength four vs T3) but the Greatsword is more likely to kill you in that first hit (strength five).

Roxors45
01-02-2009, 13:36
You've already got highly competant shooting, cheap as chips skirmishers, hard as hell flying monstrocities, magic to die for and very hard to kill monstrous creatures...

You wanted the best US3 monsters as well?

Good lord.[/QUOTE]

We already do. He's called the Slann Mage Priest :D

enyoss
01-02-2009, 13:49
The only question that matters really is what strength should they be when their hits are resolved? I would say, and I think most people would say, that strength should be 6. Once that's determined, the only task is massaging the game mechanics to obtain that end result. The easiest way to do this, without introducing unnecessarily awkward special rules and outdating existing models, is to set them at base strength 4 and give them great weapons. Done :).

Cheers,

enyoss

Mireadur
01-02-2009, 14:02
should have given then halberds instead GWs. Same result, no fluff conflicts.

Other than that im happy i was right about them going down to Str6.

Condottiere
01-02-2009, 14:19
Maybe they want Kroxigors to strike last; to reiterate, halberds are a little sophisticated.

Mireadur
01-02-2009, 14:54
Well, Dont temple guard use halberds? sounds like a typical lizardmen weapon.

Anyway the ''whole striking last'' from GWs should be removed once for all since it makes all 1 wound units without the stubborness rule almost useless and those big enough ones with them have very low initiative anyway.

xragg
01-02-2009, 15:22
Why arent goblins strength 2? They are pretty small.

The biggest hitters in football arent always the biggest/buffed players. Knowing what angles to take, where/when to drop your shoulder, and other intangiables go a long way. Stop looking the the size of the model and using that to judge what a models strength should be ;)

Bac5665
01-02-2009, 15:44
Oh for the love of sotek, it would not have been anywhere near overpowered for krox to be S7. Even in core units. The chariot smash think is only an argument that chariots need to not die to S7 hits. Leave that for cannonballs, and other warmachines. Otherwise, as people have pointed out, it only makes a big difference against cavalry, and against them, it can make a large difference. And given the prevalence of cavalry these days, it would be nice to have a unit that can handle them. But now lizzies don't. WS3 S6 just isn't going to cut it. With so few hits, every one needs to wound ang get passed the save. That's going to be harder now. I'm sorry for wanting a unit that deal with cav, instead of relying on characters all the time. I want my characters to buff units, not to run around the board chasing cav. But I guess thats what lizzie characters will have to do this edition.

Cragspyder
01-02-2009, 16:24
You are correct.

Relying on Uranon's Thunderbolt, Spirit of the Forge/Hunter's Spear/Creeping Death (your choice of your favourite with the right Slann power), EOTG radius spell, Salamanders, and the Giant Bow seems to be a little bit of an iffy proposition to me....

There is no better way that our combat characters could support our troops then by taking out the 1+/2+ armour save knights that are A) in every single list it seems and B) will wipe out any core troop in the game no sweat without a character to help out.

Chaos Knights, Blood Knights, Dragon Princes, Grail Knights, Cold One Knights with +d3 CR Banner, even large units of Black Knights or Savage Orc Boar Boy Big 'Uns that actually get to charge what they want, all of these will destroy any core unit if they aren't depleted beforehand or charged with something that can deal with them. Burning Blade of Chotec and a Cold One, Great Weapon and Jaguar Charm, Carnosaur, all of these are excellent options and will earn back the character's points very quickly.

Besides, my Kroxigor couldn't defeat Knights when they HAD S7, even with a flank charge! On average you should kill 2 1+ save knights..., more likely I found that I would kill none and take 2 wounds back! :) Good ol' probability.

theunwantedbeing
01-02-2009, 16:36
55pts for a 4+ save 3 attack st4 model that causes fear....

Nearest thing to that is minotaurs of nurgle with light armour and great weapons
How much per model?
For 3 models, 57.33pts a model.
For 4 models, 55.25pts a model.
For 5 models, 54pts a model.

You swap out bloodgreed for cold blooded effectively.
Yeah totally unfair that they are only st6.

Yes I know minotaurs are ws4 so will hit more vs ws3,7 and 8 opponents, and will be hit less by ws4 opponents.
Cold blooded grants noticably better staying power upon losing a combat, hence the advantage.
Also it does not require your general to be of a specific type.

In any case, it wont be changed so learn to live with it.

Shamfrit
01-02-2009, 16:48
Rat Ogres have 3 WS3 STR5 attacks...LD6...no armour whatsover...same movement.

50 points a model.

We could do this all day, we really could - Kroxidor are still one of the most cost effective US3 monsters there are, especially since they're takeable as Core!

innerwolf
01-02-2009, 18:00
55pts for a 4+ save 3 attack st4 model that causes fear....

Nearest thing to that is minotaurs of nurgle with light armour and great weapons
How much per model?
For 3 models, 57.33pts a model.
For 4 models, 55.25pts a model.
For 5 models, 54pts a model.

You swap out bloodgreed for cold blooded effectively.
Yeah totally unfair that they are only st6.

Chaos Ogres with chaos armour and great weapons are 50 points. Same save, same strength, attacks, WS...
They only lack cold blooded, but it's a 5 points difference. For 10 points all 3 of them(minimun size) are inmune to panic, fear and terror. They would be aproximately 53 points.
And they have the option for command group.

Kroxigors were special. Now are they overpriced? Not that much. But not anything special.

I should note Minotaurs have WS 4, so the first comparison is flawed. They hit more often thus they are better.


Edit:
Shamfrit- They come with a packmaster. Not that it counts for a lot, but it's 50 points for two models.

Lord Dan
01-02-2009, 18:18
I don't understand the issue here. People are complaining about S4 with +2S GW, however would have been just fine if they had been S5 with a +1S weapon instead of GW?

S7 was too much. S6 is the next logical step, so who cares how it's divided up?

W0lf
01-02-2009, 19:05
yes i agree this is silly, they are comparable to most similar type units.

Its more amazing that a giant is only S6. Yes thats his base strength but what about the massive club ... surely thats a great weapon?

Stuffburger
01-02-2009, 19:24
I would have preferred calling their weapons halberds and keeping base S5 but with I1 they won't ever go first anyways... I guess it's just a fluffy thing.

Leogun_91
01-02-2009, 20:13
I would have preferred calling their weapons halberds and keeping base S5 but with I1 they won't ever go first anyways... I guess it's just a fluffy thing.No ofcourse not, not as if greatswords, hammerers, miners and ironguts would have minded, I1 without GW makes them strike before those that have GWeapons and that would do difference, espesially as those are the ones most likely to wound the kroxigors anyway.

Lord Dan
01-02-2009, 20:15
I1 without GW makes them strike before those that have GWeapons and that would do difference, espesially as those are the ones most likely to wound the kroxigors anyway.

50 points for Leogun!

Mouldsta
02-02-2009, 00:48
Well here's an amusing one for you, if your arguement is that they should have Str5 because "they're bigger than a saurus", please justify why you should have the same strength as a hydra or a manticore, because both of those are significantly bigger than a krox :) Doubt I'll get a rational answer though, likely just "str 4 is stoopid the designer is stoopid" ;)

As a side point, if GW had have gone with halberds/ritual blades that everyone is suggesting, wouldn't warseer be filled with posts along the lines of "Why do my Great Weapon armed models only attack like halberds? - they look bigger than halberds! I would have been happy if they'd just lowered the str to 4 instead of this stupid idea!"?

Kalec
02-02-2009, 02:14
Or, GW could of done the intelligent thing and priced Krox appropriately for S7 can openers.

sroblin
02-02-2009, 02:29
I think it is a matter of the fluff, really. The Kroxigors are supposed to be stronger than the sauruses, they look like they're troll-class monsters.

I'm fine with them hitting at S6, I'm glad that GW is designing for effect, but biologically it just tweaks me, I would have preferred that they had simply called their clubs halberds or something. But it is a minor point- hitting at Str 6, they are still powerful large monsters and they work well enough. The only mechanical issues where the discrepency might occur are with the spell that destroy's a unit's equipment, at which point they become officially ridiculous. But that is too narrow a corner case to be a major issue.

Lord Dan
02-02-2009, 03:09
So you'd rather them be S5 with +1 S clubs that had the "always strikes last" rule?

Seriously?

TheMav80
02-02-2009, 05:35
I find it odd and annoying that Krox's got dropped to s4. It would have been nice to get an Armour Piercing rule like Ogre Clubs.

But then I always found it odd and annoying that my Carnosaur was only T5.

Embalmed
02-02-2009, 08:59
Kroxes being S4 is alright.

Ogres and Minos have S4.

It's not about brute strength, the statline isn't like in RPGs where strength is how much you lift. If Kroxes had a RPG statline they'd have WS2 S5 A1, would that be better? Their brute power is reflected in their A characteristic.

EvC
02-02-2009, 10:13
It's fine, people need to stop whining over such mundane things. They are now precisely the same strength as Chaos Knights- and, oh look, they were equal in 6th edition too. Shock ;)

shadow hunter
02-02-2009, 10:48
I thought the Shaggoth was only S5 (sure it is - in my BoC - not sen other books) and he's pretty damn big.

WH40KAj
02-02-2009, 10:54
they are ridiculous: they let skinks ignore fear, give rank bonus and size bonus, protected at str6 in a unit and do good damage...

They slapped my grave guard so yeah, I cant see the problem here...

WH40KAj

innerwolf
02-02-2009, 11:07
I thought the Shaggoth was only S5 (sure it is - in my BoC - not sen other books) and he's pretty damn big.

Your BoC Shaggoth don't eat their cereal on breakfast. Look at that WoC Shaggoths; they have their vitamines and swing with St 6. And move 8 to boot!

Neckutter
02-02-2009, 11:34
They slapped my grave guard so yeah, I cant see the problem here...

WH40KAj

how did they slap grave guard? they made grave guard better with them being able to be healed whereas, only tomb guard were able to be healed up before.


Well here's an amusing one for you, if your arguement is that they should have Str5 because "they're bigger than a saurus", please justify why you should have the same strength as a hydra or a manticore, because both of those are significantly bigger than a krox :) Doubt I'll get a rational answer though, likely just "str 4 is stoopid the designer is stoopid" ;)
?



i think i said just that, but the mods deleted my post because i was being rude!

but yeah, i would have liked S5, with halberds instead. they are the beasts of burden, so being stronger than saurus's has always made sense to me.

Mouldsta
02-02-2009, 17:36
but yeah, i would have liked S5, with halberds instead. they are the beasts of burden, so being stronger than saurus's has always made sense to me.

That's fine, but now justify why they should be the same strength as a Hydra, something that is significantly bigger than a krox.

Neknoh
02-02-2009, 17:41
And is also a natural predator accostumed to causing damage and ripping and tearing rather than pulling stones up buildings

TheMav80
02-02-2009, 17:53
Hydra's don't even have arms. So their jaw strength is only a 5. :)

Znail
02-02-2009, 18:01
The easy solution is to drop Saurus strenght down to 3 and then everyone can be happy again :cool:

CaliforniaGamer
02-02-2009, 18:15
Come on now... They tower over saurus warriors have a longer reach and huge muscles too... completely goes against all previous fluff with Kroxis being beasts of burden.

I haven't read the new book yet, but am curious to see how they pulled this one off in the new fluff.

Rather disappointed as really like the way Kroxis look, big big bigger (previously stonger) cousins of the saurus...

Oh well, will still field them in units of skinks. Is anyone here still going to field units of Kroxis?

This is due to the stupid auto-destroy of chariots at the magical Str7. Why Str7? Why does a chariot magically explode when hit by Str7 and not higher, like Str10? Dumb, dumb, dumb...

Honestly, if they just abandoned the Str7+ destruction of chariots this would go away.

Condottiere
02-02-2009, 19:20
I believe that the characteristic of 7 is a threshold number, at which point super human feats can be achieved.

Shamfrit
02-02-2009, 19:22
Which is why very few humans lack WS7 :D

Initiative 7 :D

Or for that matter, STR7.

Neckutter
02-02-2009, 21:39
That's fine, but now justify why they should be the same strength as a Hydra, something that is significantly bigger than a krox.

check out their abs!

The SkaerKrow
03-02-2009, 12:12
I think there's an easy fix to this problem. Dump the ridiculous rule that causes Chariots to pop when they suffer Strength 7 hits, and suddenly, designers will again be able to hand out Strength 5 without fear of Great Weapons making a unit overpowered.

Mireadur
03-02-2009, 13:44
Str 7 was plain ridiculous, not only the chariot rule.

Chiron
03-02-2009, 14:01
This is due to the stupid auto-destroy of chariots at the magical Str7. Why Str7? Why does a chariot magically explode when hit by Str7 and not higher, like Str10? Dumb, dumb, dumb...


Surely it does?

The SkaerKrow
03-02-2009, 14:08
I believe that the characteristic of 7 is a threshold number, at which point super human feats can be achieved.That's a good point, Con. At WS 7, normal people need 5s to hit you. At T 7, normal people can't hurt you. At M 7, you flee and pursue an extra D6". I guess they felt that S 7 follow this trend? Shame that they instituted it in such a way, though. It would have made a lot more sense to have S7 attacks cause double wounds to Chariots and rather than to simply have them cause them to explode.

EvC
03-02-2009, 16:11
Yep, agreed. I suppose S7=1 extra wound, S8=2 extra wounds, S9=3 extra wounds and S10=4 extra wounds (Enough to kill any chariot out there, black coach, war altar, unless there's one I've missed) would have been too complex for today's game.

Gaargod
03-02-2009, 17:30
What people are forgetting when they say Krox can now be taken as core is that such units are the clumsiest unit going in the LM army. They cannot turn. At all. Each Krox will cost an extra 8 skinks, i.e. go up by 40 points.
Ah i hear you cry, but then they have cheap combat res. But then again, so will their opponents - skinks, in case we're forgetting, are WS3 T2. 2!!! With no armour save to speak of. So an opponent fearing death will slap the krox, who are still only WS3, T4, 4+ armour save and get hit less, or they can kill half a dozen skinks and watch the Krox have to take LD tests at -2 or more.


The point is again fluff vs balance. Kroxigor sound in the fluff like they deserve S5. They're also designed to kill knights (and the next person to say the Engine of the Gods will do so will have a shoe thrown at him, as that spell only has a 2D6" range and D6 S4 hits, even if they do ignore armour. Its only going to get off once realistically against most heavy cav and kill 1 or 2), chariots and super heavy infantry. They barely have a higher initiative than a dead toad, so could have been given armour piercing halberds at S5 for much the same effect if you are really that worried about S7 - although personally, i find unless your entire force is based around krox and your opponent's on chariots, most of the time the chariots will keep well away from them without trouble.

zak
03-02-2009, 19:40
I really don't see how strength 4 Kroxigors are ridiculous. They are now balanced. They are core, which is a huge bonus for LM players. At strength 6 they are still hard and t3/4 troops are still wounded on a 2. The cold blooded rule is a huge bonus for a small unit without rank bonus.

innerwolf
03-02-2009, 19:49
I really don't see how strength 4 Kroxigors are ridiculous. They are now balanced. They are core, which is a huge bonus for LM players. At strength 6 they are still hard and t3/4 troops are still wounded on a 2. The cold blooded rule is a huge bonus for a small unit without rank bonus.

For serious damage( at least on a similar level to the one 6th ed. Krox caused) you need at least 3 Kroxigors, what you get on a special unit.
For three kroxigors on a core unit you need 24 skinks. Lots of points thrown on them which could be better spent, and a 6x6 huge unit which is hardly maneuvreable.

Two Kroxigor are not stellar. One is a gimmick.

So you get Kroxigors as core, but at a fraction of their( already reduced) potential.

snyggejygge
03-02-2009, 20:41
People seem to forget that the only other Ogresized models able to get to S7 is Dragon Ogres & man Eaters, both who are a lot more expensive than Kroxigors, IF Kroxigors were to keep S5 base, then they would need to cost a lot more, clearly it's a balance issue, even if it goes against fluff (in which case I say it's ridiculous that an Ogresized Creature wielding a GW hits harder than a Dragon).

Bac5665
03-02-2009, 22:34
I think every lizard player here is ok with krox going up in points if they got to keep S7.

By the way, go and look at Dragon Ogres with GWs and compare them with 6E Krox.

Stats: Points M WS BS S T W I A Ld Special
Krox: 58 6 3 0 5 4 3 1 3 7 Aquatic, charge through skinks, 4+ Sv., fear
D. Ogres 77 7 4 2 5 4 4 2 3 8 Will of Chaos, Fear, 4+ Sv. Storm Rage

Dragon Ogres are 19 points more, and get move 7, which is HUGE, WS4 which is big, with only 3 attacks, W4 for some reason, which makes a big difference. And immunity to much of the heavens lore, which is about as good as aquatic.

Dragon Ogres deserved to cost 19 points more a model before. I'd happily pay the price for them in any chaos army. My point is simply that Dragon Ogres aren't really comparable with Kroxigors. They are basically cavalry. Some of the best cav out there. Kroxigors are slower less acurate, have less wounds. And now they are less strong too. The comparison is just not helpful.

EDIT: I can't get the stats to line up, but it should still be readable. Sorry :confused:

senorcardgage
03-02-2009, 23:54
Don't you think the bigger problem is that saurus have S4? why should *any* of the ogre sized units be the same strength as a saurus? How are the kroxigors any different?

Gabacho Mk.II
04-02-2009, 00:02
I for one am awaiting players actually having used the mixed Krox-Skink units in battle and coming back to give their feedback as to their effectiveness in battle.


Suffice it to say that I don't think that the (yes I know, core units) Krox-
Skink units will do anything other than ring up points for your opponent.


We shall see.




[dammit, I hate sounding so negative. However I still can't see any true effectiveness for the mixed units, unless the said units get the charge off against slow moving and lightly armored infantry units]

Roxors45
04-02-2009, 00:29
They are effective because of their speed and stand and shoot reactions. What a skink lacks in toughness and hitting power the kroxigor makes up with its own. I think too many people are comparing the core unit to cavalry, specials or other such units not in its class. They outrun elves and men so their greatest strength seems to be operating on the flanks. Against a flank they fight 3 or 4 models, the kroxigor sometimes taking care of these models on his own. With outnumber and ranks an easy win for what a 100 pointish unit? They also serve well as cannon fodder. Sure they arnt as cheap as goblin or skaven fodder but I'd rather my enemy shooting them than losing my priest on the engine to a chance arrow.

Condottiere
04-02-2009, 01:04
I wonder if Skink-Kroxigor link-up variants will be continued in other army books?

Lugburz
04-02-2009, 01:11
I used the Skink-krox unit today in battle. I liked it! Quick flanking unit with hitting power, and static combat bonuses. Sure, the skinks took a beating, but they saved the krox from missile fire, and in combat, they still got a 5+ armor save.
And my special choises was already booked by steggy, Cold Ones, Terradon and Cammy skinks/temple guards (played two games today), so being able to use them as core is great.

I love the new Lizardmen army, so many options!

WarmbloodedLizard
04-02-2009, 09:30
they just shouldn't have nerfed them that much.
let's say, that mixed unit don't really exist, as only the 1 krox, 8 skink unit can be remotely cost effective. (and NO krox are not core, they can be core for double the cost...)

3 points cheaper (no one cares, doesn't do much)
-1 STR (means they are at least 10-20% less effective overall
lost skink screen (means they lost a lot of maneuverability)
real skinks more expensive (means krox also get more expensive in a way)

that is a major nerf, considering they weren't overpowered or anything, everyone would have accepted an increase in cost, but now they just lost a lot of their oomph.

and please stop comparing ogre-sized models of different armies all the time. it's nice to notice, but not a valid argument balancewise, only fluffwise. armies just have different strenghts, lizardmen don't have warmachines and krox were their only real hitty unit.
fluff is totally irrelevant in this situation, really, it just doesn't really translate into the real game. if we went with fluff and warhammer-realism, saurus would have WS4, stegadons could just charge through enemy units and attack a unit standing behind them, and whatever...

Leogun_91
04-02-2009, 10:20
and please stop comparing ogre-sized models of different armies all the time. it's nice to notice, but not a valid argument balancewise, only fluffwise. armies just have different strenghts, lizardmen don't have warmachines and krox were their only real hitty unit.
fluff is totally irrelevant in this situation, really, it just doesn't really translate into the real game. if we went with fluff and warhammer-realism, saurus would have WS4, stegadons could just charge through enemy units and attack a unit standing behind them, and whatever...Charging through units is represented by overrun, if the enemy doesnīt break they can stand firm against the thing and not alow it to charge through. And balancewise they have got more hitty highstrenght stuff, Ancient stegadon is high S and the carnosaur is improved, Their magic is potentionally more dangerous than before and the giantbow is poisoned (great against monsters), and yes you said it armies simply has different strenghts Ogresized superunits isnīt one of Lizardmens. So if youīre not upset by it in a fluffperspective but strictly in a balance perspective...do you consider that the decrease in S on Kroxigors makes Lizardmen as a whole a worse army and that nothing is done to compensate it or that Kroxigors are left with no uses making them an inferior Special unit (or core unit upgrade) that wonīt see gameplay from competative players

yabbadabba
04-02-2009, 10:38
We fear change! We fear change! We fear change!

Chiron
04-02-2009, 10:45
We fear change! We fear change! We fear change!

Best reply so far! :D

W0lf
04-02-2009, 11:15
but Change is good :D


oh and its really not a big deal, as said earlier S shows killy-ness aswell which is reflected in 3 attacks each. Its more of a shame they lost skink screen but hey nvm.

fubukii
04-02-2009, 11:17
i fail to see how -1 str makes the unit 20% less effective....

you still wound t3-4 on 2+ you still reduce armor by a good amount -3
Meaning only 3+ saves will get anything so that leaves
heavy infantry maybe getting a 6+ save
knights getting a 5+
And elite/empire knights getting a 4+ ( who normally cost a metric ton of pts minus the empire ones)

snyggejygge
04-02-2009, 11:54
and please stop comparing ogre-sized models of different armies all the time. it's nice to notice, but not a valid argument balancewise, only fluffwise. armies just have different strenghts, lizardmen don't have warmachines and krox were their only real hitty unit.
fluff is totally irrelevant in this situation, really, it just doesn't really translate into the real game. if we went with fluff and warhammer-realism, saurus would have WS4, stegadons could just charge through enemy units and attack a unit standing behind them, and whatever...

Then what would Ogre, Greenskin & Warriors of Chaos players say about balance? Lizardmen is a more balanced army than either of those armies, all of which lack either skirmishers, flying units or warmachines.

It clearly was a balance issue to make other units as viable as the Kroxigors (cause lets face it, the good lizardmen armies back in the day were usually made up by a Slann, lots of skinks, 3-4 units of Kroxigors & some salamanders, boring build which isn't fun to use or face) & to also streamline Ogre sized units a little more as well as make S7 a little more hard to come by.

innerwolf
04-02-2009, 12:45
i fail to see how -1 str makes the unit 20% less effective....

you still wound t3-4 on 2+ you still reduce armor by a good amount -3
Meaning only 3+ saves will get anything so that leaves
heavy infantry maybe getting a 6+ save
knights getting a 5+
And elite/empire knights getting a 4+ ( who normally cost a metric ton of pts minus the empire ones)

We posted the maths behind it some pages before. When attacking cavalry( the unit they were made to counter) they have a save 1 point higher( regardless of 2+ or 1+ save). This means around 1/3 less kills.

When flanking infantry units in mixed Skinkrox units they kill the same as before, but on this role saurus cavalry is better IMHO.

WarmbloodedLizard
04-02-2009, 13:12
Then what would Ogre, Greenskin & Warriors of Chaos players say about balance? Lizardmen is a more balanced army than either of those armies, all of which lack either skirmishers, flying units or warmachines.

It clearly was a balance issue to make other units as viable as the Kroxigors (cause lets face it, the good lizardmen armies back in the day were usually made up by a Slann, lots of skinks, 3-4 units of Kroxigors & some salamanders, boring build which isn't fun to use or face) & to also streamline Ogre sized units a little more as well as make S7 a little more hard to come by.

I, more or less, agree with you, but i see it from a different point of view. They should start making really good books that are well balanced in themselves and compared to other armies. I mean, sure, it's not easy, but the status quo of the armybooks is just a joke.

The major problem with GW is, that they don't really balance the armies (enough), some armybooks look like they were made by a kid who loves the army and gives it all kinds of cool stuff while others look like the writer hates the armies and some are balanced on the back of the army's individuality.
Even though it is total nonsense from an economical standpoint, for the sake of the game GW should just once make a general overhaul of all armies + the rulebook simultaneously, with real playtesting by giving out trial rules in the white dwarf (which is a total joke and could use a major overhaul as well, by not making it an (almost) pure marketing tool) or similar.
Armies should all have very different, individual and enough specialized units and strengths that shouldn't be leveled to the same ground.

A cheaper way that would cost almost nothing, would be a regularly updated Errata section. so stuff that just doesn't work can be balanced after the use of the book.

@ fubuki:
yeah, 20% is probably exagerated. the problem with listing T3-4 low AS units aren't really the main targets of krox. and against their targets - tough stuff with nice AS and chariots - they got a lot worse.

@change:
The problem with change is that there is change for the better and there is change just to have change, even if its bad. no one fears the change that the EotG was added and most people agree that the change in salamanders is justified. then theres kroxigor... or even the razordon/salamander split... that's totally boring... i mean what were they thinking by making 2 units that look almost the same and even do very similar stuff, when they could have made a totally new, much more interesting unit.
the same with the slann disciplines, most of them, except for maybe 3, are just not what the slann needs (besides being a joke for 50 points apiece)

@leogun_91:
overrun is very diffrent from charging through, gameplay wise. the stegadon are overpriced and are mostly useful as character mounts. i don't really see how a stegadon is worth its points.
a new slann more dangerous than an old slann? a low cost slann is indeed better than a low cost slann with the old book, but as soon as you're looking for something comparable to a 2nd gen slann, you won't find it.

the book is better than the old one, if you look at the diversity of the units that will be fielded, as units that weren't fielded before were made barely(!) playable and the good ones were nerfed. But it also lost a lot of individuality, so i hope 8th will be something in between and more interesting.

kinda drifting away from the topic, so I'll keep quiet now :D

edit: oh yeah, carnosaur. without the 3+ wardsave I think it got a lot less viable for a 2000 points game. together with the lost spawnings, the carnoraur lord hasn't really improved much.

Leogun_91
04-02-2009, 19:11
@leogun_91:
overrun is very diffrent from charging through, gameplay wise. the main difference being that one exist and the other doesnīt if you go by fluff then Stegadons, chariots, ogres, knights, giants some more and maybe the etheral units should be able to charge through but that rule doesnīt exist in the game, I would say that overrun is what would represent it for when a unit overruns it cuts down those that stand before it and continue into those behind without a considerable loss in momentum and if the oponent doesnīt die but instead stands in the face of the oponent then itīs hard to charge through them so no overrun is gained.


a new slann more dangerous than an old slann? a low cost slann is indeed better than a low cost slann with the old book, but as soon as you're looking for something comparable to a 2nd gen slann, you won't find it. Allright sorry, the Slanns are only better when both sides uses pts as an individual Slann could be made more powerfull before (but would be beaten by new Slanns for the same ammount of pts).