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Creeping Dementia
31-01-2009, 21:01
I'm not talking about the new models, I think they are great.

The new rules and stats though are sort of letting me down.

Some background on me though. I haven't played Fantasy for roughly a year. The last games I played were at a big Rogue Trader in JAN of 08, which I won with my Lizardmen, it was the first tournement I had won and the also the last games I played. I got really tired of playing against Thorek, empire/dwarf gunlines, WE bowlines with 2 treemen and a dragon, etc. I used the prize to get a second Tau Megaforce, and I haven't looked back at Fantasy until a couple months ago when the more solid Lizardmen rumors.

I kept waiting for news on what would get buffed, and what would get mutilated by the nerf bat *whack*.

So far the things I predicted would get nerfed, have been nerfed. Huanchi's totem... *whack*. Jaguar charm... *whack*. Kroxigor strength... *whack*. Salamanders... *whack*. Spawnings... *poof*. I'm still not sure on Slann yet, but the whole miscasting thing really sucks.

We do get the Engine of the Gods, but by my estimation it seems it will almost be a mandatory choice to be competitive, and we can now take a lot more Stegadons, but I haven't read anything on why Stegadons are going to be better than they are right now (and right now they suck for the points cost).

There are a couple buffs we got mainly with small points decreases in the Saurus range, and there are a couple magic items that used to be crap that are now replacing the good ones that are becoming crap.

Anyway, I was hoping the new Lizardmen line would be a modivation to get my beautifully painted army out of the back of the closet, but at this point it doesn't seem worth it to move the camping gear out of the way.

Does anyone else feel similar to the way I do about the new Lizardmen rumors? or am I just put off from Fantasy altogether. If anyone is able to put a different light on the whole thing I'd be happy to hear it.

Tyranno1
31-01-2009, 21:40
Well its true that some things have been nerfed and some even compeltly unusable. But there have been improvements, and on the whole I think alot more tactical options than before.

Although if you want me to whack out a few improvements to you to make you feel better then here goes.

Spear saurus are now per points one of the best core infantry in the game.

Temple guard are now rock hard and hit hard (and the new models are lovely).

Carnesaurs are a great mount for an oldblood, who has also got an armour save boost and suffered no negativities in the process.

Scar-vets are now not only the same price, but are T5. For a hero thats great.

Terradon rocks can realy hurt in good numbers, have seen Deamon princes with great ward saves get squashed by them.

Razerdons are like salamenders on crack. Anything that charges them will get pincushined to death.

The ancient steg can cause alot of pain, especially with a guy with steg lance.

Cold one riders have got the 2+ save all the lizard players have wanted, with no points change.

Stegs becoming a special choice has made them possible to be fielded in great numbers, thats alot of impact hits. And they got +1 leadership.

So there are quite a few benefits in the list. Lots of new options that people wouldnt have dreamed of taking before.

Desert Rain
31-01-2009, 21:50
I have to disagree with you on most of you points. I don't remember what they did to Huanchi's Totem so I can't give my view of it. The jaguar charm is better than before, if you use it wise, like after you've casted all your spells or the opponent runs out of dispel dice. I agree with you on the kroxigors S6 was a really big blow.

Salamanders were a bit overpowered in 6th edition so I don't think that they have been nerfed. I prefer the old shooting attack over new one but it's not that big of a difference.

The loss of the sacred spawnings was a blow, but honestly there were like three or four of them that were any good. The loss of them takes away some of the character and customizability of the army so it's a bit of a shame that they were dropped out.

On all aspects apart from the miscast issue I think that the new Slann is much better than the old one, for less points. There are some items and diciplies that can protect you from a miscast so you're not left compleatly out in the open when it happens.

The new stegadon isn't better than the old one, apart from the Ancient that is. However, the Ancient costs a lot of points so you are paying for all the good stuff. The engine is a good addition to the army and if you look in the amy lists forum most people seems to be using one.

All saurus choices have been boosted which they were in dire need for. Overall I belive that the new army is more balanced and varied than the old one - despite the lack of spawnings and I'm looking forward to be using it in battle.
/Desert Rain

Luthor
31-01-2009, 21:51
I will be very disappointed if what you say is true, because I was considering Lizards for my first (well first completed) army.

kramplarv
31-01-2009, 21:56
The new lizardmen army are more fun than the old. Since now we can build different armies, and having just one standard build as it was before.

And armies with several good builds are always better than armies with one d00m-build. In my opinion.

GodlessM
31-01-2009, 22:08
Funny thing is most of those things needed a hit of the nerf bat so I think whining about losing your cheap 18" charge S7 Scat Vet is a bit much for most to swallow.

The_Dragon_Rising
31-01-2009, 23:01
Funny thing is most of those things needed a hit of the nerf bat so I think whining about losing your cheap 18" charge S7 Scat Vet is a bit much for most to swallow.

Unfortunatly for people playing against magic heavy lists with said hero (like mine where i have 6+ spells first turn) said scar vet can now march 8" first turn and then fly a further 20" with 4 str 7 attacks.

GodlessM
31-01-2009, 23:11
People will expect it and make it a must dispel, at least now one can stop it.

W0lf
31-01-2009, 23:15
Is it not bound 5?

Because thats -2 DD to you and one happy slaan for me.

GodlessM
31-01-2009, 23:29
Well regardless, it still puts up the point that people shouldn't be complaining.

Shamfrit
31-01-2009, 23:33
I don't see how Lizardmen got Nerf Batted at all.

Firstly, they weren't exactly tournament hogging to begin with...

Already, their priority lists are causing an impact on test sites.

Their shooting is now able to outhurt and damage Dwarf and Skaven Shooting - alarm bells start to ring their...

Saurus are cheap, better armoured, and have a bucket of STR 4 attacks...and Cold Blooded...

Skinks are as cheap, and useful as ever.

Razordons are just.....horridly good.

The Engine of the Gods is going to be spammed...

The Slann is now master of multi-task magic, can't be shot in a unit, and has a very wide LOS, a free dice for every spell cast, and some funky items and disciplines.

Magic defence is now sick...One slann and one Skink...8 Dispel Dice...

Terradons are much better...Temple Guard are hard as nails.

Wooo! Kroxidor dropped a point of strength, but are cheaper.

Skinks can be in ranked units O.o...with Kroxidors!

The Carnosaur got better, the Saurus Veteran got alot better...

Items got jumbled around...so what? You've still got some awesome items.

But obviously Warseer is never satisfied....

I'm getting sick of certain people spending 100 posts whining about things without logic, statistics or examples though....

I should go join a convent or something. Or start playing Patience.

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
31-01-2009, 23:34
*reads first post*

Muhahahaha! Lizzies suck!

I hope our local lizardmen players are equally disappointed.

No, I'm not bitter, why do you ask?

Axis
31-01-2009, 23:39
And so it begins.. 2 weeks ago everyone was saying how overpowered lizardmen would be and now they whinge whinge whinge.

Sounds exactly like what happened with WoC. The internet is a funny place!

Madfool2
31-01-2009, 23:44
And so it begins.. 2 weeks ago everyone was saying how overpowered lizardmen would be and now they whinge whinge whinge.

Sounds exactly like what happened with WoC. The internet is a funny place!

Welcome to Warseer :p

woodulikeanother
31-01-2009, 23:45
i disagree, with you on saying the new liz army are letting you down, the stegadons are just insane, did you read the battle they did vs the new chaos deamons, the new blow gun on stegadon and the altar is crazy, you could field an army of basically just big Dino's and trample even the toughest and most armoured of foes....im still trying to get over the 2d6 poisoned blow guns on the steggy which could amount to 4d6 on any one unit if desired, i dont care what armour or ward you have or how many wounds you have, one turn of that for anyone is going to be pulverized!, plus the new razordons are cool too, i cant believe how exited i am to do battle vs my brothers lizardmen army even though i may get massacred a few times with either of my 2 armies of vamps or orcs...i agree with you *shamfrit the naroq, much better lizzy's now

Voss
31-01-2009, 23:50
The Kroxigor, overall are a good change for the lizardmen. Yes, S7-> S6 is a loss, but in exchange, you get rank bonuses, the potential for outnumber, protection against missiles and freed special slots. And a relatively cheap champion that can challenge and pull attacks away from the Kroxigor.

I'd suggest trying out the new list for a while before panning it. They probably aren't capable of the pure crazy that a VC list can put out, but they have a lot of very solid options and an amazing amount of flexibility in the organization of the list.

Bac5665
31-01-2009, 23:53
How are the terradons better? They are much, much, much worse than before. They hit much weaker on the on the charge, so much so that now I'm not sure they would take out dwarven warmachine crew. The drop rocks is a neat trick, but once per game limits its usefulness.

Where before, terradons could be minor combat units, charging things and winning, and also march block and such, now they can only march block. They have no other use now. Sure they got a little cheaper, but for the complete loss of serious combat ability, they better have.

Also, Krox + Skinks suck. People need to understand that the skinks are a liability against anything that the krox couldn't handle already.

StarFyreXXX
01-02-2009, 00:07
From the bunch of games I have played with the new army, what I find hurts, and is very disappointing is the lack of true customizability.

For example, the spawnings should have been improved to make them all better. I used to use all of them in various lists and they rocked. They also made a good compliment for how chaos has marks.

Other stuff like lack of lores also hurts but can be managed (it's also very unfluffy, and don't say the BRB lores are lizardmen lores, they aren't...they are what the high elves taught the humans....read the book, it says it right there). Mazdamundi had his own lore, now he has 1 of the 4 spells and it's nerfed so much that it's better to just use a regular slann. Kroak and Maz should have some disciplines but maz has the most useless of them (re roll on miscast result)...+1 PD makes the most sense and kroak MR 3 would be good.

The krox, i think, would have made more sense being more expensive and keeping str 7. Whatever, haven't bothered to use them anymore since they don't perform well enough in the games I used them.

What I do like.

Weakening the slann states makes sense, so I am happy with it. Bloodthirster got less wounds, so i don't want a slann to have 8. 5 is good. Also disciplines are good BUt they all should not be 50 pts. Not all of them are as useful. The same ones will always be used. +1 PD is a must. Then it's a toss up between drain 6s, MR 3, and ethereal (if a lone slann army). The 50 pts for entire lore isn't worth it as for 15 pt, tepoc gives +1 spell..so you get 5/6 but for 35 less pts than gtting all 6. If you want an item from that group, then you need to take the 50 pt full lore.

Skink priest should have choice between heavens/light, not just heavens (other than Tetto'eko). Also, Tetto'eko should be level 3. From using him, he just can't do enough with being lvl 2 but with 6 spells. His power is 1 game only, so that IF rule of his won't break the game, but that is why it just doesn't make up for trying to cast comet on 3 dice.

I love his fluff though so will use him in my Kroak army since kroak can share his PD with other wizards so that is good.

I have used the ancient stegadon and engine of the gods. Regular stegadon is still useless IMHO. Ballista is 6 shots max (1/round) and chance to hit ain't that great. Same problem as before. If the steg was down to 175 like the DE hydra, it would be great. Ancient steg blowpipes are quite fun, but if you roll low like i did when using it, it's pretty useless. Ancient steg + hero with the 2d6+1 impact lance is interesting. I like it. Also in a game vs a friend, i killed archaon via cheesing archaon (killed his knights with magic before hand) with 2x5 formation skinks to force him to charge in a random direction for me. Then charged with eotg and ancient steg. rolled high for impact hits and since impact hits don't suffer the -1 t hit that archaon does now, it works out well. Got past the ward since so many hits, got 3 through and then the engines magic attack got 1 more on him and it worked :) hehee

They are fun to use.

The engine's magical radius is short range..2d6 inches. being random you can't count on it. if it was 2d6 hits i'd love it. As it is, i have dropped it from most of my lists, but will use it now and then. -1 to heaven's also doesn't help as much as you'd expect. Only cast 1 spell due to the -1 in 4 games with it.

I haven't tried terradons yet or COR.

Oh, Chakax was fun to use but I reallly thing it would have made more sense to make him act as a nullstone on all enemy magic items BUT raise his cost. As he is now, he will normally be placed in a unit of TG with a slann. Problem is, players try to charge such a unit with a powerful lord IF they have to charge it. 90% of lords will rape chakax so for being the most expensive hero in the game, i don't think he's worth it other than for great fluff and model.

Saurus rock. Using them with spears in 3 games so far, they have raped elves, ogres (with a hero in it and they got the charge), bloodletters with a hero and bsb in it.

Temple Guard are still not that great. Saurus appear better due to so many more attacks. Being ItP though helps.

I think the best liz armies now, will be 2-3 large blocks of saurus with spears. some units of blowpipe skinks, and whatever lord/hero choices you like.

I haven't had luck with salamanders or razordons so not sure what to do with them. If anyone has, please help!!! heheh

Overall, i think the armybook will be same as 6E. some good, some bad but overall very playable.

I find that unlike the past few books, High elves, dark elves, chaos, daemons, vampires, i don't find anything in the liz book as cool. I WANT to use the other armies (but due to money, wife doesn't want me starting more armies)..hehe. I don't see that in the liz army. I am hoping in 8E, they give us a flying mount like the couatl ..that would be cool and fluffy, and many armmies have apowerufl flying mount; why not us as well?

Also, i hope they make a weaker carnosaur for heroes to take (ie. how high elvs can have 2 dragons in 2K)...seeing how GW is hurting for funds, imagine all the players who would buy a slann and a carnosaur for 2k :)

Sanjay

Halelel
01-02-2009, 00:14
Personally, I think Lizardmen didn't really change all that much as there seemed to be positive and negative changes with the army which means that if you are looking for a overpowered force you will surely be disappointed. Overall, I do agree that it seems that the Lizardmen took a step backward as there seems to be more negatives than positives.

I think many people in their minds truly believed that Lizards would be the anti-daemons and it just didn't turn out the way (although I think Lizards will compete just fine against Daemons for the most part).

Positives :
-cheaper Slaan (some nifty abilities as well)
-new salamander breath weapon (flanker with panic = great)
-razordon (stand and shoot will dissuade a lot of fast attackers)
-saurus (spear saurus are great, temple guard got better and new models look great too)
-non-slaan special characters (seems a few of them will see their ways into various army lists, especially the mini-slaan skink)

Neutral :
-More stegadons which means GW will surely sell a bunch of their new kit, however, the EoTG seems almost mandatory now which means that most Lizardmen players will have to buy one or two new stegs (even if you are like me and have 4 of the older ones).
-Saurus cold one riders (better armor save, but still overpriced)
-magic items (most got worse, however, not all the changes were bad)

Negatives :
-kroxigors (str 4 which is equal to a saurus now?)
-terradons (became just too brittle, don't believe single use of drop rocks is all that great)
-skinks (losing scouting is going to hurt as chameleon skinks somehow got worse, ranked cohorts I don't believe will make up for the loss of scouting)
-slaan (single magic lore is not as great as compared to multiple lores or a unique lore, if a single magic lore was so great than why aren't empire mages considered cheese?)
-spawnings (takes away fluff and uniqueness of various lizardmen armies, I consider it equal to removing Marks from Chaos armies)
-slaan special characters (they blow)

Creeping Dementia
01-02-2009, 00:22
Their shooting is now able to outhurt and damage Dwarf and Skaven Shooting - alarm bells start to ring their...

Saurus are cheap, better armoured, and have a bucket of STR 4 attacks...and Cold Blooded...

Skinks are as cheap, and useful as ever.

Razordons are just.....horridly good.

The Engine of the Gods is going to be spammed...

The Slann is now master of multi-task magic, can't be shot in a unit, and has a very wide LOS, a free dice for every spell cast, and some funky items and disciplines.

Magic defence is now sick...One slann and one Skink...8 Dispel Dice...

Terradons are much better...Temple Guard are hard as nails.

Wooo! Kroxidor dropped a point of strength, but are cheaper.

Skinks can be in ranked units O.o...with Kroxidors!

The Carnosaur got better, the Saurus Veteran got alot better...

Items got jumbled around...so what? You've still got some awesome items.

You have some good points here, but some bad ones as well.
First on the Kroxigor, that point of strength is a big deal, no more chariot trashing, less armor pen on all that heavy cav, and it makes monsters signifigantly harder to kill with them. The only reason to take them before was strength 7, which was unique. Now we get overpriced Ironguts.
And skinks ranked with a Krox is a bad idea, just like it was in... I think 5th edition. Any opponent with half a brain is just going to kill handfulls of skinks and gain a massive win with combat res.

In what way are terradons better? They have a single rock? From every report I've seen their hitting power is reduced.

Magic defence, right now I can just take one skink priest and a couple spawnings an have 7 dispel dice. Now I can have 8 with a Slann, oh thank goodness.

Slann can't be shot in a unit... unless its a cannon, and if I read it right they can't benefit from look out sir. Sure we're protected from smaller shots, but our toughness was already doing that with the current codex.

We can already outshoot Dwarves and Skaven... if we can get close enough, and that issue won't change with the new rules.

You're right on everything about the Saurus, they've gotten better. Is going with a strictly block army going to be the way to go?

StarFyreXXX
01-02-2009, 00:27
One pt Creeping:

Slann can have look out sir rolls now. Chakax entry states that the TG unit with a slann he joins become unbreakable and the unit gets to reroll look out sir rolls.

I think that implies slann can get Look Out Sir now.

One other comment on the ranked skinks.

i don't see how the skink/krox unit is worth their points, just take saurus instead.

Ranked skinks though, do have one usage. Like i did against the archaon army i mentioned above.
In 2x5 formation, the frontage is so small, you can wheel them in entire circles (you hold down one sideto wheel, but the other front edge has to move the distance of the movement rate in inches, thus it can rotate all around). Just march em in front of a unit that is powerful, and set them in such a way that they have to charge the skink flank and will over run to the side. Then if you can (what i did) was put another skink unit behind them rotated at another angle.

Opponent had few choices. They can waste turns trying to move around them. They can charge them and not overrun (but then they are left with more skinks behind at eveen worse angles so they get screwed anywyas) or charge, overrun and then hit th eother unit and end up in another odd direction.

My friend charged and chased the skinks to get rid of them, ended up hitting the other unit and next round overran again into my sals which i set there to die....

so atleast baiting skinks are cheaper at 5 pts now...

Sanjay

Creeping Dementia
01-02-2009, 00:31
Cool hadn't seen that one, thanks for the update.

Nicha11
01-02-2009, 00:35
I'm gonna speak up for the Lizardmen here, I'll be blunt, I LIKE THE NEW BOOK

The new fluff is excellent, on par with the skaven army book fluff.
The art is also very nice, although sometimes abit to indistinct.

At 1000pts now Lizardmen will dominate, no question in my mind,
For instance i can get a T6 4 attacks strength 7 3+ armour save fear causing bohemoth for 138pts!!.

Scar-vets are now one of, if not the best hero in the game.

Slann change, I'm actually positive on this one, for 275pts i can get lv4 wizard, 4+ward save, second rank of unit and +1pd per spell! Thats just crazy!

Carnosaur are also now awesome, not being a large target is just so good.

Saurus are now unarguably (in my view) One of the best core choices, a solid block of them is just so hard.

Skink Skirmishers might have gone up a 1pt but thats balanced by the leadership increase.

Of course Krox might not be as good, but they have awesome models so i don't mind.

Terradons i'm still not sure about.

Stegadons, I'll only field an EOTG or ancient with war spear, the normals aren't paticularily good unless you field 4 in a list:evilgrin:

The loss of spawnings, I don't really give a damn, face it there was only two that anyone took. +1 armour save which is now free for saurus, and the +1 dispell dice, which is balanced by Skink Priest with Diadem on EOTG.

Overall I would rate the book as an improvement and i believe we will be seeing them doing well in both tournaments and friendly games.

just my 2 cents.

StarFyreXXX
01-02-2009, 01:33
Might as well take away chaos marks then since some weren;tas good as others. Instead, they weakened a couple marks, but overall, they are all good and fluffy and add variety.

Lizardmen, they took away what we used to make our armies more unique and the stuff that got nerfed just isn't as good as stuff like saurus and skink .the basic combination of troops.

I think armies will be even more similar than before unless people make themed special character lists.

I have many lists i try out but major list i've been usingis a kroak list since, well, since we never got our own lores, kroak has a very good and fluffy spell of his own, so i use him. (if tehenhuian had his own spells,i would use him, etc)..hehe

still the liz special character slann aren't very good..they should have been 700-800 pts IMHO and made better...but oh well. atleast kroak's spell is good.

Sanjay

someone2040
01-02-2009, 01:37
I have to agree with the above post (Nicha11's post, the one above Starfyre's post). I really like what they've done with the new books. There are some little minor things that I don't really like about it, but the fluff, artwork and rules are in general, quite good.

I really don't care about a unique lore. Most of what the Slann do, is by combining power or has been lost in the centuries since the Old Ones vanished. I'd rather make the Slann interested in other ways (Which they have done) rather than get some unique lore to try and make us different. Is it really unique if almost every other race has a unique lore?

The Slann miscasting now, I think was the right thing to do. Miscasting is a large part of magic, and ignoring it's effects completely is just wrong.

The only rules I'm unhappy about are.
They could've buffed the power of Kroak and Mazdamundi a bit, make them a bit more interesting. I don't mind that Mazdamundi only has 1 unique spell, it's not as bad as Starfyre makes it seem. I think it's quite a good spell.
Most of the special characters are mostly overpriced. I think Gor-Rok is about the only one worth his points, there are some which are more overpriced than others though.
Kroxigors losing strength is annoying from a fluff perspective. But I guess it had to be done.
Skink/Krox units just aren't good enough. A nice throwback to 5th edition, but seriously, they didn't think too much about it.
Stegadons really needed to be cheaper. Possibly Ancients as well. Most people only seem to be taking them as character mounts.
Losing spawnings was dissapointing, but I'll live with it. Tepok and Sotek I'll miss (Only because, seriously, Tehenhauin really could've used Sotek), but other than that, I don't see the point. Saurus got the increased Scaly skin, so it's all good there. Without tepok, have to at least take a Priest otherwise you're asking for trouble.

Overall, I'm mostly fine with what they did. The magic item section is a bit lacking in some places (Talismans, Aura of Quetzl is **** now), and totally ignored fixing some items (Dragonfly of Quicksilver is now even more worthless than before).

Shamfrit
01-02-2009, 01:46
Terradons...

Flyers...

That can move through woods!

Bac5665
01-02-2009, 02:14
So...? Its cool that they can move through the one forest thats in the corner of every board. But seriously, why would they be in the woods? The only use for them now is march blocking, and things in woods are already marched blocked. if they could charge out to the woods and do anything but die, then it would be cool, but they can't so...

Just cause something could be crazy doesn't mean it is.

StarFyreXXX
01-02-2009, 02:18
someone..that's just it...

Kroxigors didn't HAVE to lose strength. more costly would have been better.

Adding lores, etc fits fluff.

Like i have said many times...make the armybooks cheaper, downloads or something, get rid of the fluff, make them pamplets if the stories don't mean anything.

of course we'll live with no spawnings. we have no choice. that doesn't mean it's a good thing. Its like chaos losing marks. People would live with it and adjust. does it make the game better overall, i would say no.

Mazdamundi's spell is ok..but for 18 inch range..just using all your dice on fire sppells for combat would prob be better overall. without +1 PD.he can't cast enough and his spell's casting value is very high.

All the special characters are overpriced IMHO. Archaon got 200 pts cheaper and better. One complaint was people would kill his mount. So they made his mount a normal cav mount so we can't do that now and he's harder to defeat with -1 to hit. For mazdamundi, he used to have a combined profile which made more sense and his ward save thus did more but doing hte same thing and leaving his cost higher..700-800 prob would have been better. Stegadons aren't easy to kill BUT considering the type of stuff that charge lords, maz' steg will die (stuff that ignores AS, dragons, etc) and then maz is in CC on his palanquin = dead.

I agree, skink/krox is pointless. Stegs also had to be cheaper.

Like i said before...the army book is like the 6E book. Lots of good stsuff and lots of bad stuff. I find more contrast in the lizardmen books than armies where more stuff is good and fun.

Our good stuff is very good..the rest is same as now. no one will use it over time.

Atleast saurus rock now :)

Sanjay

soots
01-02-2009, 02:29
Im going to have to TOTALLY disagree with you there.

I think Lizardmen have out did Daemons with their new army list.

They are the new power army thats going to be winning all the tournies soon.

I can see some absolutely hideous combinations.

And you can quote me in 6-12 months time when we stop complaining about Daemons.

StarFyreXXX
01-02-2009, 02:37
I just hope we don't see 5 or 6 stegadon armies everywhere...

Sanjay

Nicha11
01-02-2009, 02:38
Im going to have to TOTALLY disagree with you there.

I think Lizardmen have out did Daemons with their new army list.

They are the new power army thats going to be winning all the tournies soon.

I can see some absolutely hideous combinations.

And you can quote me in 6-12 months time when we stop complaining about Daemons.

And i'm going to have to totally disagree with you;)

Whilst the new Lizardmen are strong, i don't believe they are going to be slapping VC and DOC around.

Shamfrit
01-02-2009, 02:40
Flying Hit and Run Cavalry with missile weapons, a very useful (yeah, it's one off, but the amount of damage you can do as a one off will certainly make your lone characters or small units think twice...Wood Elf character in WOODS anyone?

Trappers in WOODS.

Skirmishers in WOODS.

Anything that ignores terrain in WOODS.

But oh no! They're not STR5 with 7 attacks each on the charge!

Nevermind. I'm done with this -

Go and play with your unreleased army book for 3 months of testing...

THEN start whinging.

loveless
01-02-2009, 02:51
Am I sad/disappointed/etc.? Nope. This is the first release in a long time that I've paid 0 attention to...which is odd for me.

It's just new book fright after Warriors - don't worry too much about the Aztec bipedal Lizards and Amphibians of DOOM.

Nicha11
01-02-2009, 02:53
Go and play with your unreleased army book for 3 months of testing...

THEN start whinging.

We'll start with you stop Shamfrit:evilgrin:

soots
01-02-2009, 02:54
And i'm going to have to totally disagree with you;)

Whilst the new Lizardmen are strong, i don't believe they are going to be slapping VC and DOC around.

Engine of Gods will be putting holes in these MSU armies. Skaven weapon teams, Dwarven warmachine setups, Elven MSU armies, Daemons will be taking S5 hits, theyll be doing 2-400pts of damage a turn vs daemons.

Against VC, they have stegs which are ITP, they have Krox/Skink RnF units wihch are immune to fear. They have Saurus which will be EASILY winning combat (ive done the maths and on average they will kill 5-8 skellos/ghouls a turn) and these saurus have the highest ld in the game for the initial fear check. They have heroes which will pound vampires in CC. What can skellos/ghouls do against skinks+ kroxies or Saurus? Or 7 stegs?

Bac5665
01-02-2009, 02:58
Lone characters are always a bad idea. Unless its a dragon in which case the terradons won't do s***.

Did you really just suggest I use a 150-200 point unit to go kill trappers?!? Trappers die to a stiff breeze. Being able to kill trappers is a requirement to be a warhammer unit that isn't a gnoblar. Even skinks can take trappers. Any skirmisher that is a threat will destroy terradons. Shades will just laugh. Sure, I can drop rocks on a WE character in the woods and kill him, but terradons would have been able to just charge and kill him in 6E. I truely don't see how its an improvement over all.

Nicha11
01-02-2009, 03:08
Engine of Gods will be putting holes in these MSU armies. Skaven weapon teams, Dwarven warmachine setups, Elven MSU armies, Daemons will be taking S5 hits, theyll be doing 2-400pts of damage a turn vs daemons.

Against VC, they have stegs which are ITP, they have Krox/Skink RnF units wihch are immune to fear. They have Saurus which will be EASILY winning combat (ive done the maths and on average they will kill 5-8 skellos/ghouls a turn) and these saurus have the highest ld in the game for the initial fear check. They have heroes which will pound vampires in CC. What can skellos/ghouls do against skinks+ kroxies or Saurus? Or 7 stegs?

The EOTG is very expensive, also all its effects are lost when its WS2 T2 W2 rider dies.

Vc don't have to worry about steg's.

Steg charges 20 Skellies kills 7 (and thats high). Skellies lose 7 to crumble.
Next turn the Vc players raises those Skellies back and the steg won't be able to win combat.

Rnf Skink and Krox? Only problem is that people are just going to attack the Skinks, which will be giving up lost of CR.

Saurus? I am a fan of the Saurus, but if models with their stats are so good why aren't Chaos Warriors dominating?

What Can Skellies and ghouls do against 7 Stegs? Well as we would be playing 2250 I assume the Drakenhof banner could be useful, hell even a Varghulf can give a Steg a run for its money. And since the Lizardmen player has brought 7 Stegs the Vc player can obviously bring super killy lord on Dragon who can comfortabely kill a steg a turn without breaking a sweat.

Every Option has a counter.

StarFyreXXX
01-02-2009, 03:25
As i mentioned above..i've been having very bad luck with razordons and sals..neither does anything for me. Any ideas on what i may be doing wrong?

I have to try out terradons and COR but with the new banner that doesn't allow for the flank charges as well (which is what COR are good for)...not sure i'll ever use them anyways.

Sanjay

CaliforniaGamer
01-02-2009, 03:28
New LM can be downright brutal. There are combos that simply are masterful. Definitely overall they are outright superior to the WoC.

I would place them a strong 4th:
1.) DoC (far and away the strongest book)
2.) DE
3.) VC
4.) LM
5.) WE
6.) HE/Empire

Shamfrit
01-02-2009, 03:31
We'll start with you stop Shamfrit:evilgrin:

When the fat lady sings 'ey?

:evilgrin:

EDIT:

I wouldn't say Superior, I went toe to toe with them today, the current competative Engine/Slann list too. Ended in a firm draw, 40 points difference to me.

I only had 7 casting dice and 2 units of knights...and holy smokes! Infantry!!!

--

And, whoever said 'lone characters are a bad idea' has obviously never played against Wood Elves that much...

Kerill
01-02-2009, 05:16
I think it's the best book GW have done this edition, skink/Kroxigor army of doom with every army with JSOD is now not the automatic best choice.

Kroxigor now have the same strength as an OGRE or MINOTAUR, they did get nerfed but are still worth their points whereas before they were undercosted.

Skink skirmishers got more expensive but then they needed to. They also got +1Ld which is pretty nice.

I'm not convinced about the mixed cohort units entirely but they are an option and aren't THAT bad. On the charge they can do well against almost anything. 1 Krox units also make them handy annoyance units too. Still you have the option.

The new slann is much better than before- much cheaper, much safer, don't need 2nd gen for the extra PD per spell and knowing a whole lore is IMO better than a bunch of magic missiles, although it may not be unique enough for some players. Don't need to bother with the plaque of 2+ ranged ward either. Lots of points saved.

Saurus have got a lot better and a lot cheaper. They are a better unit that chaos warriors in an army with much better support units than WOC. If chaos warriors could take a spear they would suddenly go from being crap to being incredibly useful.

TG got a lot cheaper and better.

As for losing spawnings, you lose the ability to customise but:
Every saurus (including TG since they now have l.armour) except the scar vet now has a free +1 armour save spawning (Quetzl). The scar vet had T boosted to 5 instead.
Every saurus character now also has the free cold one/carnosaur spawning (Itzl).
Cold one cavalry got an AS boost.
Terradons have changed their role (to one that fits the fluff better), got cheaper and IMO are as good as before- the ability to wipe out light cavalry just by flying over them? That's tremendous and they can still war machine hunt.

Salamanders and razordons I think the jury is still out although it looks like salamanders are no longer light unit killers, and are better targetting large elite infantry units or cavalry. Still the 1 casualty panic test for salamanders means that even 1 can be quite dangerous. Also both of these units are much better than before in combat because the skinks are now out of the combat line and even 1 pack makes a decent flanking unit.

Stegadons are fairly priced IMO (there is no point comparing things to hydras before that starts...) with or without characters. They got BETTER for the SAME PRICE and they were taken before as well. You also have the option for ancient or Engine.

The magic items are a bit lacklustre and defensively got the same nerfs as chaos warriors, still there are some decent ones in there and some that will be seen as more useful in future I think (like the much derided horn).

This books has got me collecting lizardmen again (not done that since 5th edition) its stong, fluffy, has excellent internal balance and a mixture of troops will probably the best build- what more could you want?

As for comparisons with WOC, overall I would say they are definitely stronger although WOC has one or two possible cheese builds whereas it looks like LM only have the stegadon army. More importantly, unlike WOC, the army has the tools to deal with anything and you can make a variety of viable all-comers armies using different builds. I'm impressed with GW's job here.

soots
01-02-2009, 06:04
The EOTG is very expensive, also all its effects are lost when its WS2 T2 W2 rider dies.

Vc don't have to worry about steg's.

Steg charges 20 Skellies kills 7 (and thats high). Skellies lose 7 to crumble.
Next turn the Vc players raises those Skellies back and the steg won't be able to win combat.

What Can Skellies and ghouls do against 7 Stegs? Well as we would be playing 2250 I assume the Drakenhof banner could be useful, hell even a Varghulf can give a Steg a run for its money. And since the Lizardmen player has brought 7 Stegs the Vc player can obviously bring super killy lord on Dragon who can comfortabely kill a steg a turn without breaking a sweat.

Every Option has a counter.

If you ever somehow manage to kill the rider of the EOTG(huge task in itself), its still a stegadon, which means it a treeman that charges like a chariot.

Not many people understand its best to tie up the enemies good units, but the fact that their good units are very prevalent means you simply cant tie them all up. You gonna keep 7 RnF units topped up to counter the stegs and go for the draw? Stegs as special was the stupidest thing theyve done in the last 5 years. Next up are 7 Treeman, 7 Hydra and 7 steam tank armies where the aim of the game is to walk out with a draw by tieing them up.

The strong units should all be rare.

As for the rest of the army, its very powerful imo. Saurus 21 S4 attack RnF units and Skink 6 S6 attack units with MV6 as CORE are absolutely brutal - Best core in the game. Special and rare include stegs. Strongest CC hero in the game, very powerful caster who can use different LOS round off what imo ranks above the daemons list.

*shudders at fighting 7 treemen who charge like chariots*

Condottiere
01-02-2009, 06:12
Chariots are slotted as special, though a stegadon is rather over-powering; since the theme is dinos, and the object is to sell these models, it shouldn't have been a surprise to find them there.

Nicha11
01-02-2009, 06:18
7 Stegs 4 Special 2 Rare 1 EOTG= 1880pts,

Thats pretty expensive and effectively your whole army at 2000pts.

As a VC player i can keep 7 RNF units up against these guys. And eventually where you down.

Pavic
01-02-2009, 06:20
If you ever somehow manage to kill the rider of the EOTG(huge task in itself), its still a stegadon, which means it a treeman that charges like a chariot.

How it is a huge task? Get a character into contact, challenge, and poof, no more EOTG.

Also, since the EOTG is a large target, it is going to be taking a lot of missle fire, both non-magical and magical. Against heavy magic lists, one can be sure that knocking off the priest is going to be a serious priority. Sure the priest will have randomization and the 2+ AS, but a few lucky hits will put the T2 priest down.

I am not going to say that the EOTG is terrible, but I honestly think a priest on foot, hiding behind something or in a wood, is a better way to go for armies only looking for magic defense.

StarFyreXXX
01-02-2009, 06:27
I've had my priest challenged twice.

Once by some nurgle demonic herald (who either ignored saves or had high str sothe 2+ AS didn't mean anything)..priest died in a round of challenge and engine was useless. Stegadon then got raped by some nurgle spell.

The 2nd time, was against some type of treekin dryad hero or something....couldn't get past the armour save and kroak's spells from nearby ended up destroying the treeman and the treekin that had flanked the engine.

it is a risk..but the priest isn't totally defenseless...i just don't suggest it for most army builds..

Sanjay

Volker the Mad Fiddler
01-02-2009, 06:37
SNIP
And skinks ranked with a Krox is a bad idea, just like it was in... I think 5th edition. Any opponent with half a brain is just going to kill handfulls of skinks and gain a massive win with combat res.

SNIP

People have to stop spouting this crap. Only the most killy of units can do enough wounds to skinks to make up for the rank bonus, banner and possible outnumber. Normal troops still have WS 3, Str 3, 1 attack. Even if they dropped skinks to WS 2, that means from 6 attacks [frontage of 5], the opponent will score 4 hits, 8/3 [2 and 2/3rds] wounds, which means 16/9 or just under 2 wounds after the armour save. Given that ranks and banner give +4 CR, against most normal units, the skinks give a overall combat res. boost of +2 [more if they have a scaly skin save along with their shield].

Does it get worse against very scary enemies [like HE Swordmasters or VC Blood Knights] sure, but given how much damage those units can do, they would probably kill a Krox or two before the Krox could attack anyway which is going to lead to as great a loss of CR as some skinks dieing does, and deny those Krox the chance to attack.

Conditions are not the same as in 5th edition. Of course, I play mostly friendly games with lists that are actual armies. In a WAAC environment, it doesn't really matter, because people are only going to take the best, not the balanced anyway.

Lord Dan
01-02-2009, 06:49
Clearly Warhammer is played on a flat surface with one stegadon each charging one fully ranked unit of skeletons.

No, no I think I'll charge at least two into one unit.

Nicha11
01-02-2009, 06:51
Clearly Warhammer is played on a flat surface with one stegadon each charging one fully ranked unit of skeletons.

No, no I think I'll charge at least two into one unit.

Then naturally it would have to be a unit of 40, as Warhammer isn't played on a flat surface and i'd be expecting two stegs:p

Shamfrit
01-02-2009, 11:38
That's what the Engine's defence spell is for.

If you get charged or charge something, blast them to kingdom come - it is brutal against knights that is for certain.

Mireadur
01-02-2009, 12:42
The fact there's no kind of limitation to the number of EOTGs you can include is crazy, but i guess thats the quote paid for the hungry powergamers and their tournaments. The powers are good and when spammed just insane. The priests up there will be lvl3 and shooting lightingings like theres no tomorrow and the creature itself is nearly impossible to kill unless with very specialized models.

Other than that, and the cheapness of the saurus characters, The book is awesome. I certainly believe its the 2nd best book of this edition (after VC) although VC lacks of balance within the rest of the armies as well known, while this one has it.

I just miss the damn skinks on horned ones... Why, why, why!!??

soots
01-02-2009, 12:46
7 Stegs 4 Special 2 Rare 1 EOTG= 1880pts,

Thats pretty expensive and effectively your whole army at 2000pts.

As a VC player i can keep 7 RNF units up against these guys. And eventually where you down.

wear them down? Your not gonna harm them, theyre not gonna run. Like I said, youd be aiming for a draw against said army.

And at 1880pts it isnt a bad investment to be honest. 7 treemen in a 2k game and youd be laughing all the way to the tourny cup final.

But of course we are talking extremes, which we have to since they decided to put them in the special slot. Special unit choices should always be common and expected imo, and going heavy on specials shouldnt ever be frowned upon.

The army can be hideously exploited and is very poorly playtested imo. Definately without doubt NOT underpowered unless you field armies trying to lose.

soots
01-02-2009, 12:51
The soft skinks in the mixed unit is far far more advantageous than you think. The key here is MV6. These mixed units will get the charge off against everything except cavalry. Kroxies with GW attacking first is going to hurt especially when you add another +5 combat res points on top of it from the skinks. You have to commit your precious cavalry to take on this core unit, while your core gets to fight those lovely 21 Strength 4 Attack saurus.

Tyranno1
01-02-2009, 12:55
I think it is one of the best army lists of the 7th ed.

Vamps/daemons are broken. Dark elves are not far behind apprently (I have yet to face some really nasty builds).

Warriors were a reather bland and tasteless build compred to what they used to be.

Lizards do have a few no brainer choices, e.g Saurus>>>>krox/skink combo. But skinks are still going to be seen on thier own.

I love that despite looking and playing almost identically razers and sallies are built to take out completly different opponents.

Condottiere
01-02-2009, 14:14
I just miss the damn skinks on horned ones... Why, why, why!!??You can always end their overseas deployment and recall them.

Pavic
01-02-2009, 14:21
That's what the Engine's defence spell is for.

If you get charged or charge something, blast them to kingdom come - it is brutal against knights that is for certain.


I am not exactly sure when one can use the EOTGs abilities, but I assume that it is not during another player's turn.

So, if you are charged, I imagine that the skink priest will be dead by the end of the phase.

On a side note, could a unit simply charge, not challenge, and aim every attack at the priest? Since he is a monster rider, it would seem like this is perfectly reasonable.

Emissary
01-02-2009, 14:27
I am not exactly sure when one can use the EOTGs abilities, but I assume that it is not during another player's turn.

So, if you are charged, I imagine that the skink priest will be dead by the end of the phase.

On a side note, could a unit simply charge, not challenge, and aim every attack at the priest? Since he is a monster rider, it would seem like this is perfectly reasonable.

The EOTG abilities happen at the start of the controller's magic phase.

Yes you can send all your attacks at the priest, but he'll still have a 2+ save, so not defenseless.

selone
01-02-2009, 14:49
Isn't talking about tourny rankings a bit premature?

Mireadur
01-02-2009, 15:00
How would you charge it unless with a unit of flyers which could get behind the LZ line? i supose Noone is going to offer an easy charge on the EOTG.

Just by sticking it behind or a little back in between 2 infantry blocks it will be nearly impossible to charge it. Characters on flying monsters though will clearly aim for these behemots. The problem is that even these models will have a rough time to get a charge on the EOTG without suffering 1 AoE shot from it.

StarFyreXXX
01-02-2009, 15:29
The major problem with the engine is that you want it to charge, since it's 1d6+1 str 6 impact hits. Also with US 10, if combined with soomething else, you prob will get out#. The issue is that the priest can be challenged, so against many heroes, etc he will die or anythingg that ignores AS.

It's ranged no AS attack is decent i guess, but random short range and donly 1d6 hits, so it doesnt end up doing as much as you think. It's not bad, just not some saviour. If the 5+ ward it provided was against everything, it be awesome...but that 12 in range away from the engine for ranged attack seems to disappear really quickly in games.

Sanjay

Bac5665
01-02-2009, 15:35
Someone earlier said that the Krox/skink combo was great on the charge, or against WS3 S3 troops, which were refered to as "average."

1. So what the krox/skinks will do well on the charge? Nothing thats worth killing breaks anymore. Everything that krox couldn't slam through before won't break to the krox/skink combo. Any VC or daemon unit will be around on the second round of combat, and thats the end of the Krox/skinks. Yes, Krox/skinks will charge empire halbredeers and murder them. Does anyone care?

2. WS3 ans S3 are not average. Any unit with those stats is not designed to actually fight. Empire core infantry exist to die, maybe distracting a unit or 2 in the process. All elves have WS4 at least. Skaven are WS3 S3, but again, they aren't supposed to actually fight. Any unit that is supposed to fight and ever have a serious chance of winning is better than WS3 S3. At least one of those stats is higher, often both are. STOP comparing combat units to WS3 S3 troops. It doesn't help anyone.

Mireadur
01-02-2009, 16:24
The major problem with the engine is that you want it to charge, since it's 1d6+1 str 6 impact hits. Also with US 10, if combined with soomething else, you prob will get out#. The issue is that the priest can be challenged, so against many heroes, etc he will die or anythingg that ignores AS.

It's ranged no AS attack is decent i guess, but random short range and donly 1d6 hits, so it doesnt end up doing as much as you think. It's not bad, just not some saviour. If the 5+ ward it provided was against everything, it be awesome...but that 12 in range away from the engine for ranged attack seems to disappear really quickly in games.

Sanjay

If you really cant see the possibilities of the powers given to the EoTG then well...

I see constantly my friend doing wonders with his treemen shooting attack. I cant see why would it be different with a stegadon, given its base is bigger but also moves further and deals more area dmg.

Also you should use the thing as a charge supporter, not a stand alone, which should ensure with the d6+1 +3attacks (plus the magic powers) that the unit in question either breaks or its vaporized.

Thats what i love about the unit: while having enormous opportunities, it doesnt turn in a no brainer (unless you spam them of course) with its powers requiring a good coordination with the rest of your army.

Shamfrit
01-02-2009, 16:49
Not to mention it seriously deters any lone characters flying/running/trying to assasinate the Skink Priest.

StarFyreXXX
01-02-2009, 17:21
Mireadur....i've used the engine in 4 games now...

As i have said..i've used it combined with other stuff....The ranged attack can be good but it doesn't do as much as you would expect.

Please note, the armies I have faced though with it are Daemons twice (their ward saves protected them), wood elves (it did well there), and chaos (did ok..not great..but a lucky blast from it killed archaon)....

I rolled really badly thouhg so it's 5+ ward turned out to be only ok. not as good as it should have been. The -1 t heavens though is useless IMHO. I keep it on the ward and then the close combat attack.

Shamfrit. Yes..it's awesome against lone characters unless they are greater demons...the lord of change wasn't bothered by it, but in that game, my Lord Kroak took care of the lord anyways. THe wood elf player got some hero guy behind the engine, and the engine made him suffer for it.

Sanjay

Kerill
01-02-2009, 17:30
Someone earlier said that the Krox/skink combo was great on the charge, or against WS3 S3 troops, which were refered to as "average."

1. So what the krox/skinks will do well on the charge? Nothing thats worth killing breaks anymore. Everything that krox couldn't slam through before won't break to the krox/skink combo. Any VC or daemon unit will be around on the second round of combat, and thats the end of the Krox/skinks. Yes, Krox/skinks will charge empire halbredeers and murder them. Does anyone care?

2. WS3 ans S3 are not average. Any unit with those stats is not designed to actually fight. Empire core infantry exist to die, maybe distracting a unit or 2 in the process. All elves have WS4 at least. Skaven are WS3 S3, but again, they aren't supposed to actually fight. Any unit that is supposed to fight and ever have a serious chance of winning is better than WS3 S3. At least one of those stats is higher, often both are. STOP comparing combat units to WS3 S3 troops. It doesn't help anyone.

Although I'm not convinced about the usefulness of the mixed units you are still massively underestimating their ability to break a unit. 6 skinks and 2/3 Kroxigor (let's say 2 for now) will kill just over 3 Ws3/4 models with a 4+ save, against T4 (orcs) it will kill 3. With only 2/3 attacks back you are looking at 2-3CR over your opponent before everything else is factored in. They can also defeat cavalry very effectively and, because of the rules for the Kroxigors attacks 3 Kroxigor in that unit can attack the same model on a 20/25mm base making the unit very effective at character killing. Being unable to defeat daemons on their own is hardly unexpected but VC units aren't that scary and at least this unit is immune to fear.

The unit is also far more likely to be able to break cavalry than normal Kroxigor. Finally the unit will fit better with magic spells that reduce your opponents ability to fight.

Not a great unit but not as bad as you are trying to make them seem.

Mireadur
01-02-2009, 17:39
Mireadur....i've used the engine in 4 games now...

As i have said..i've used it combined with other stuff....The ranged attack can be good but it doesn't do as much as you would expect.

Please note, the armies I have faced though with it are Daemons twice (their ward saves protected them), wood elves (it did well there), and chaos (did ok..not great..but a lucky blast from it killed archaon)....

I rolled really badly thouhg so it's 5+ ward turned out to be only ok. not as good as it should have been. The -1 t heavens though is useless IMHO. I keep it on the ward and then the close combat attack.

Shamfrit. Yes..it's awesome against lone characters unless they are greater demons...the lord of change wasn't bothered by it, but in that game, my Lord Kroak took care of the lord anyways. THe wood elf player got some hero guy behind the engine, and the engine made him suffer for it.

Sanjay

What else do you want? :p

StarFyreXXX
01-02-2009, 17:45
People seem to think taking an engine will make or break the game. It won't.

it's a decent support model and IMHO, better than a regular stegadon...

But i find in lists now, i'm not taking it. Played in a game against ogres friday without it..got a draw, thanks to the saurus and slann's fire magic.

At 290, it's very expensive for an engine..and i don't think it's worth 290...not bad...just not the best thing out there.

Sanjay

Bac5665
01-02-2009, 19:08
I'm not saying the unit is bad, I'm saying that kroxigors on their own are just as good against most things, and that the skinks hurt against things that the krox struggle against anyway. The Krox by themselves are better, pointwise, in most cases.

soots
01-02-2009, 19:30
i think you underestimate +5 combat resolution points, especially when you can give it to an ogre type unit for 60pts.

soots
01-02-2009, 19:39
EoTG is brutal.

Anyone who cant see the benefit of an undispellable mini-comet of Cassandra is just not thinking straight.

It will be doing 4-500pts of damage every game if you have half a clue.
- Rock it up to the hill with warmachines. One turn and theyre all dead.
- Brettonian army can say goodbye in one turn.
- Daemons are an MSU army as norm. Theyll be smashed against S5 no save to a 2 foot diameter hole.
- Youd think a skaven horde amy would fare well? All their weapons teams will be melted in one turn.
- Wood elves play as MSU. My gosh they can say goodnight.
- Empire RnF detachments will be reduced quickly after their warmachines are smashed.

IMO, it should have been dispellable. Even if it was only 1 unit taking D6 S4 hits, you would take it in. Let alone ALL units within 2D6". Did I mention the treeman chariot its mounted on top?

CaliforniaGamer
01-02-2009, 19:42
7 Stegs 4 Special 2 Rare 1 EOTG= 1880pts,

Thats pretty expensive and effectively your whole army at 2000pts.

As a VC player i can keep 7 RNF units up against these guys. And eventually where you down.

I could absolutely wreck a VC army with the new LM ruleset. Especially your typical horde summoning block ION-spammation types.

The LM is definitely to rock to VC scissors.

IMO, the only real threat is the cheesey DE builds and of course DOC!

Bac5665
01-02-2009, 19:56
Wow. Any bret player who lets all of his knights get within 7" of an EOTG deserves to lose several knight units. And I'll point out, d6 hits will not take out a unit of 9 knights nearly every time. It will kill about 2 on average. Sure its powerful, but it will be a very, very, very rare situation that the EOTG effects multiple knight units and kills more than 2-3 out of each. Stop panicking and charge the dang thing instead of sitting 7" from it.

StarFyreXXX
01-02-2009, 20:18
Daemosn don;t suffer as much as you would expect, since they still get a 5+ ward save on it. It does kill demons but i've found kroak's spell a hell of a lot more effective and worth the points than the engine.

I want to experiment with 2 engines in one army. but it's very expensive.

Sanjay

Gork or Possibly Mork
02-02-2009, 06:48
I think the new book is really well done. The things that some people are claiming as overpowered ( EotG, Steg ancient etc. ) are priced just about right. Yes there powerful but very pricey which means less support units in your army. I think you need to bring 2+ big beast or none at all. Which means even less support. The blowpipe shooting and EotG spell seems much less reliable than some would have you believe. Although I think they can be devastating combined with other magic but also pathetic if your dice are cold. Kind of reminds me of my Orc's ( can be unstoppable but are unreliable
most of the time.) Razordons remind me of Ogre lead belchers..Brutal but the more teams you take the riskier it gets to misfire ( munch skinks ).

Although terradons are weaker in combat I do see some uses for them other than just march blocking. Lets say my opponent has a lot of warmachines that together will weaken or kill my big beasts or atleast weaken to finish off later with other units. I would be more than happy to send the terradons on a suicide mission ( it can't shoot if it's tie-up in combat ) to lessen the effect of multiple warmachines decimating my beasts before they can get into combat. If a chief on terradon joins them they can probably win against most crews. Another use is to set-up some easy fleeing kills with them. Hiding and flying through woods makes that role easier. I don't think they got better or worse. We will just have to find a new role for them.

Over all I like most of the changes. The special characters kind of suck or are a bit pricey. The magic items/banners for the most part are ok ( I hate one use stuff ) some are great though. The Slann are Brilliant. Brilliant I say!
Scar-vets are bad@ss and dirt cheap.

I think I may have found a use for the magic horned one. Someone mentioned in another thread about putting the krygor horn on a slann with templeguard and 2 scar-vets on coldones in saurus blocks thus giving you 3 stubborn units. with the magic horned one atleast one of those wouldn't have to worry about stupidity for the about the same price as a coldone. Not that it's that big of a deal with coldblooded Ld.

ChaosVC
02-02-2009, 08:52
I have to agree with StarFyreXXX, in a Powered up armies game, the EOTG is good but not that good. But in a normal balance game, you really have to watch out for it.