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Dokushin
01-02-2009, 22:10
Ok. I'm just trying to get all these straight in my head and get a little input, because the new book is coming and leaving LM players with a lot of questions. So tell me what you think:

1) What happens when bolt throwers shoot a mixed unit of Kroxigor and Skinks? (The book only says to randomize shooting such that on a 1-4 it hits Skinks and 5-6 it hits Krox. How does rank penetration work?)

2) What happens when the Poisoned Stegadon Great Bow rolls a 6, and how does this interact with rank penetration? (This issue is not addressed at all in the book; all we have is 'Poisoned' in the rules block.) Generally accepted: the first hit autowounds and remaining hits roll to wound as normal.

3) Can Stegadon Great Bows and Ancient Stegadon Giant Blowpipes be used in a Stand and Shoot reaction? (No mention for or against is made in the rules text. These weapons are -not- classed as warmachines.) Generally accepted: they may Stand and Shoot as any shooting attack may be used when specific restrictions are not present.

4a) Can the Stegadon Great Bow be fired by and using a Skink Chief's Ballistic Skill if he is on the Stegadon? (Again, not classed as warmachine. Bow says it is fired by two crew. Chief displaces one crew and is BS 5 instead of 3.)

4b) Can an Ancient Stegadon Giant Blowpipe be fired by and using a Skink Chief's Ballistic Skill? (Same as above but requires only one operator.)

5) When is use of Huanchi's Blessed Totem declared -- when the charge is declared or when distance is measured? ('The unit can add d6" to its charge move. If the charge is failed, the unit will move forward at its normal movement rate.')

6) When using the Cupped Hands of the Old Ones to redirect a miscast, is the item used before or after the roll on the miscast table to determine the effect of the miscast? (The item states the enemy wizard suffers the 'effects' of the miscast.)

7) Are hits from the Engine of the Gods' ability The Burning Alignment magical? (It says only strength 5 hits. This is mostly relevant for the next question.)

8) Are hits from Miscasts magical, even though they are not specified to be? Is a model affected only by magical attacks immune to hits caused by miscast? (This is of interest to me primarily because of the last one.) Generally accepted: All hits in the magic phase are magical

9) If Oxyotl requires a 6 to hit, and rolls a 5, is it poison? (His rules state only 'All attacks made by Oxyotl's blowpipe are poisoned on a To Hit roll of 5+.') Answered: DoC FAQ explicitly states Poison Attacks must hit to poison even if they autowound on less than 6. The attack would not therefore poison.

10) When the Cupped Hands of the Old Ones redirects a miscast and there are multiple enemy Wizards in LOS, which one does it hit? (The item says, '...if there is an enemy wizard within line of sight he will suffer its effects...')

I'm sure I'm forgetting some, if anyone wants to chime in...

Necromancy Black
01-02-2009, 23:18
Number 8 we have talked about before. Nothing at all says that magical weapons do magical attacks. Nothing says that spells do magical attacks. It's implied that anything in the magic section of the BRB does magic attacks.

So yes, miscats affects will hit units that ignore mundane attacks.

Number 3 is not an issue either, you've answered your own question. It's not a warmahcine and it has no rule against standing and shooting. Unless this is FAQ'd or erreta'd then at the moment they can clearly stand and shoot. This amkes numebr 4 very interesting, which I have no idea about.

Number 5 is an interesting one. The fact is it's cheating (as per the FAQ) to decalre a charge you know will be out of range, so decalring a charge before using this item would be cheating in some instances. I'll probably roll before the charge is measured.

W0lf
01-02-2009, 23:31
9) is easy. 5+ suggests 5 OR MORE. so 5 and 6 is posioned. Though this in turn means that 7+ etc is posioned lol.

Shamfrit
02-02-2009, 00:11
1)

You always resolve hitting the most number of models ina rank, which would hit skinks over Kroxidor, and this it'd hit the first rank skink, 2 skinks, then whatever rests beyond.

Of course, if it's just the first rank then a Kroxidor in the unit, it'd hit the Kroxidor.

WLBjork
02-02-2009, 07:02
9) You still have to be able to hit with the roll you make. In the example you give, that 5 would be a miss anyway.

3) Yes, they can S&S (I think this was clarified in the BRB Q&A no. 2?)

Oberon
02-02-2009, 07:50
4A&4B: no, the character riding the stegadon may not shoot with the bow or blowpipe, crew fires them and the rules of stegadon make the distinction at every possible point between the character and the crew. Character is not crew, he may not fire the bow or the blowpipe.

Neckutter
02-02-2009, 07:59
while i dont have the LM rulebook, doesnt the wording say the chief replaces one of the normal crew?

Oberon
02-02-2009, 08:12
Is says "displace", but again the character and the crew are separate things on all rules of the steg. "Skink crew and characters have 3+ armour save" or "enemies may direct their attacks against character, skink crew or the mount", or "if character is riding the beast, 1-4 hits the beast, 5 hits the crew and 6 hits the character", and "if the mount is killed the skink crew are killed too, however the character may continue to fight on foot if you have the model", AND "regardless of how many riders or crew the stegadon has, it's US is 10".

Neckutter
02-02-2009, 08:17
hrm. i think the reason why they make the distinction between "crew" and character" is because they have a different profile, and any shooting/HtH could have a chance of hitting the character instead of hitting the meathshields.

personally, i dont know the intentions of GW here. i havent read the book, and the only precedence for character's helping out warmachine crews is dwarf engineers, and empire engineers. but their rules specifically say they can help the crew. then again, the steg isnt a warmachine, so who knows. "displace" would seem to say that he just kicks one skink off the howdah and you dont get any points refunded. i dont think using the BS of 5 is a huge deal, really. it makes sense that he could shoot, but RAW i dont think he can.

i sense a huge amount of discussion of this when people have questions about it.

Oberon
02-02-2009, 08:23
They also have a different BS statistic, so it would make a difference if a skink crew (their name in the profile) is shooting instead of a skink chief (profile, notice how it doesn't say "crew" either? ;) lol )...

I won't be allowing characters to fire the howdah weaponry, unless a FAQ says so, but that affects only a small group of players here...

havoc626
02-02-2009, 08:43
2) I have no idea and from what else I've seen on the forum, neither does anyone else. While I think it would be something good to compensate for the skinks low BS and the model's high point cost (as compared to a spear chukka) and have awsome affects against some units, I don't think that this was really the intention. The first rank auto wound, not too sure about the rest however.

4a&b) The chief displaces a crew, but it isn't said that he can crew the weapons. I'd allow it, but it will need FAQing for most people to accept an answer.

6) I like the idea of getting the miscast result, then using the Cupped Hands, just to spite those damn Ring of Hotek and Infernal Puppet users, but I highly doubt that this was how it was meant to be.

7) I'd say yes, but others may say no.

8) Yes, pure and simple.

9) No. Refer to the DoC FAQ. It states that plaguebearers that didn't actually 'hit' the enemy will not auto wound.

1) Was answered well, just apply the most numbers of models in the rank. Only one Kronxigor in the rank? It hit a skink. 4 Kroxigor in the rank of a 5 model wide squad? Hit a Kroxigor.

3) Answered right.

5) Declare and roll the extra distance, then declare a charge, otherwise it would be kind of useless.

PS, I do not play Lizardmen, but I do verse them, as a few of the guys at my club have them, and this is how I'd play against them.

Neckutter
02-02-2009, 08:44
oh, i know about the BS difference. it would be helpful for KM armies if they could use the extra bs to pew pew with the steg, instead of having to charge into combat.

all of a sudden, i think LM have turned into "check this out, most of my units are big creatures" army

and if i play against Lm players i will let their skink chiefs shoot the blowpipes, but this is just me.

nosferatu1001
02-02-2009, 12:34
If it displaces a crew member, then there is no reason he canot fire. War machines have a specific line which prevents attached characters from firing the machine, which strongly implies they could otherwise.

"Poison" requries a roll to hit - as you only roll to hit against the front rank, rtolling a 6 only auto wounds the front rank. All the rest would roll as usual. It helps get you that shot when facing high T enemies; more likely to skewer them!

3) - unless specified otherwise all weapons can stand and shoot; as it is not a war machine it does not inherit ANY restrictions.

7) The Engine statres "these effects occur in the magic phase" so by definition they are magical; same as miscasts must be magical....

Oberon
02-02-2009, 12:41
If it displaces a crew member, then there is no reason he canot fire. War machines have a specific line which prevents attached characters from firing the machine, which strongly implies they could otherwise.



7) The Engine statres "these effects occur in the magic phase" so by definition they are magical; same as miscasts must be magical....

TK can make their units attack during magic phase->my skeleton archers now shoot magical arrows? Cool. Nothing is magical unless the rule says it is either a magical item, weapon (WOC ensorcelled weapons), spell (magic missiles), or causes magical hits (like the WOC troll vomit). EOTG is not a spell.

The howdah weapon rules say that it is the crew that fires, and there are many points in the stegadon rules where the crew is separate thing from the character. I think the rules are quite clear: the character riding the stegadon is not part of the crew.

mightygnoblar
02-02-2009, 12:44
just one question, for the ancient steg with blow pipes, is the priest the only rider?

Oberon
02-02-2009, 12:47
No, EOTG replaces all _crew_, but the characters only kick one of them away. So ancient has 4 crew and the priest, and the blowpipes.

EvC
02-02-2009, 13:23
I just checked the book and it says that the Engine replaces Howdah weapons, not all the crew.

Dokushin
02-02-2009, 13:29
9) No. Refer to the DoC FAQ. It states that plaguebearers that didn't actually 'hit' the enemy will not auto wound.


Oh, wow, thanks for that. Explicit clarification. Didn't know it was addressed there. Updated to reflect.

Dokushin
02-02-2009, 13:54
Added one:

10) When the Cupped Hands of the Old Ones redirects a miscast and there are multiple enemy Wizards in LOS, which one does it hit? (The item says, '...if there is an enemy wizard within line of sight he will suffer its effects...')

HiveFleetEzekial
02-02-2009, 19:57
Fairly sure.. it's player's choice, since it lists other set way of nominating the new target.

Asmodiseus
02-02-2009, 20:00
Agreed obviously it does not effect them all since it states only wizard and not wizards, so I would say it is the Lizard players choice who it effects.

Whaagnomore
02-02-2009, 21:30
This question might be covered by earlier basic rules, but alas, ive found nothing on it.

It states that a skink group is at unit size 10 minimum, however, they can buy in one krox per 8 skinks, does this mean that it has to be 10 skinks and then 1 krox or that you can use 9 skinks and then one krox, seeing as the later makes it unit size 10?

Asmodiseus
02-02-2009, 21:45
There has to be at least 10 skinks as you may add one kroxigor not replace a skink with a kroxigor. So you must first purchase at least 10 skinks to start the unit, at this point you can choose to buy one kroxigor. You can add 6 more skinks and then buy 2 kroxigors if you wish.

Gabacho Mk.II
02-02-2009, 22:02
Added one:

10) When the Cupped Hands of the Old Ones redirects a miscast and there are multiple enemy Wizards in LOS, which one does it hit? (The item says, '...if there is an enemy wizard within line of sight he will suffer its effects...')


I would assume the 'closest' enemy character (wizard) would get the miscast effect. (and if more than one character is equally distant, then roll a dice to determine randomly)

Necromancy Black
02-02-2009, 22:15
I would assume the 'closest' enemy character (wizard) would get the miscast effect. (and if more than one character is equally distant, then roll a dice to determine randomly)

What? Why on earth would you play it like that? That has absolutly no standing within the rules at all.

him_15
02-02-2009, 22:23
Does Tehenhauin get the +1 Magic level when riding the EoG just likes normal skink priest?

Gabacho Mk.II
02-02-2009, 22:27
What? Why on earth would you play it like that? That has absolutly no standing within the rules at all.



Honestly then, how would you resolve it if this exact situation came up during a game???



[assuming that the ruling/information regarding the item is merely what was posted, then would it make sense to have an enemy wizard that is 23" away suffer the effects or an enemy wizard that is 7" away???]

[[[or, do you believe that EVERY enemy wizard within line of sight suffers the effects of the miscast?]]]

Asmodiseus
02-02-2009, 22:33
Distance has no role in the equation at all. A character 23" awaya is effected exactly the same as one that is 7" away. In this case the player whos item it is would nominate one character to be effected. Dont ask me to give you a reference for it because there is no reference to how this should be played out.

@him absolutly he does as he is still a skink priest.

Necromancy Black
02-02-2009, 22:41
Honestly then, how would you resolve it if this exact situation came up during a game???



[assuming that the ruling/information regarding the item is merely what was posted, then would it make sense to have an enemy wizard that is 23" away suffer the effects or an enemy wizard that is 7" away???]

[[[or, do you believe that EVERY enemy wizard within line of sight suffers the effects of the miscast?]]]

You pick a wizard in LOS. If I can see multiple wizards, I'm going to pick who it is. There's nothing at all to say it has to be the closest. That as support int he rules as saying pick the one furtherest away. The Lizardmen playing who used the item has the choice out of availible targets. So I'll pick whichever one I want.

Where does it say anywhere in the rules that distance is a contributing factor?

Gabacho Mk.II
02-02-2009, 22:54
Again, you are arguing heavily without the the armybook in front of you. (correct?)


Thus, if the armybook actually states that "'the controlling player gets to select/choose which wizard suffers the effects of the miscast," or something akin to that, then you would be right.

Otherwise, I just can not see a 20pt (?) item having that much power. Even for GW.

The rules of the item need to be explicit. So far, we dont have that in this instance here.





BTW, I too would love to loosely interpret magical items and their effects for my Lizardmen army. However, it would be poor sport on my part to casually make a ruling and stand by it without open and hostile criticism from my gaming opponents.

Asmodiseus
02-02-2009, 23:15
So what your saying is that we cant assume the controlling player gets to choose but its ok for you to assume that its the closest wizard?

The fact is there is no reference in the rulebook anywhere to how a situation like this should be played. In almost all situations in warhammer the owning player gets to choose who gets effected (It almost always states so saying something to the effect of "Choose a unit within x inchs" etc.), There are situations when it effects the closest unit or character and in these situations it also states that specifically as well.

What we have here is an item that effects 1 model, but does not state anywhere in its rules how you choose which model is effected, if multiple models can be effected, and there are no rules in the BRB to state how targeting such items works. So it is left up to the players to decide how the targeting should be handled. I believe it makes much more sense to go with the normal targeting rules that probably 80% if not more of all items in warhammer use (allowing the items owner to decide who gets targeted), than use targeting rules than only a small minority of items use (It automatically targets the closest unit/model)

Chicago Slim
03-02-2009, 03:10
#1: You apply the rules for Bolt Throwers, from BRB Page 90. To whit:

"If the target is a unit of five or more ranked-up models, the bolt will always strike a regular trooper in the unit's first rank..."

and a couple of paragraphs later


If the first model is slain, the bolt hits the trooper directly behind in the next rank...

Now, what constitutes a "regular trooper" in a mixed unit may be an open question, and can (and will) be resolved in different ways by different interpreters. As always, talk it out before rolling any dice, to make sure that both players agree on the interpretation.

WLBjork
03-02-2009, 04:05
Again, you are arguing heavily without the the armybook in front of you. (correct?)


Thus, if the armybook actually states that "'the controlling player gets to select/choose which wizard suffers the effects of the miscast," or something akin to that, then you would be right.

Otherwise, I just can not see a 20pt (?) item having that much power. Even for GW.

The rules of the item need to be explicit. So far, we dont have that in this instance here.

Why does it need to be that explicit?

You either randomise or the player controlling the item chooses. (Personally, I believe that it should be randomised).

Otherwise, the rules would explicitly state 'the closest Wizard in LoS suffers the effect of the miscast'.

havoc626
03-02-2009, 06:21
It says '...if there is an enemy wizard in line of sight they will suffer the effects.'

I'd say that the owning player would get to choose, as targeting rules involving LOS are that, unless otherwise stated, you get to choose the target.

therisnosaurus
03-02-2009, 07:39
cupped hands is more than double that cost I believe

Asmodiseus
03-02-2009, 07:51
cupped hands is more than double that cost I believe

Ah nice pick up theris cupped hands is indeed 45 points.

TheDarkDaff
03-02-2009, 08:12
I'm just waiting for someone to say that you only get to pass on the miscast effects if there is only a single wizard in LoS. If there are 2 then there isn't "an enemy wizard" in LoS, there are are more than that. Or go the other side of the coin and say every Wizard within LoS gets the Miscast effects.

DeathlessDraich
03-02-2009, 08:45
Ok. I'm just trying to get all these straight in my head and get a little input, because the new book is coming and leaving LM players with a lot of questions. So tell me what you think:

1) What happens when bolt throwers shoot a mixed unit of Kroxigor and Skinks? (The book only says to randomize shooting such that on a 1-4 it hits Skinks and 5-6 it hits Krox. How does rank penetration work?)


Haven't got the LM book but based on the rules,

1) Probably best to randomise for each rank containing Skinks and Krox in the same way that ranks containing characters are randomised for Bolt throwers.

Neckutter
03-02-2009, 09:44
I'm just waiting for someone to say that you only get to pass on the miscast effects if there is only a single wizard in LoS. If there are 2 then there isn't "an enemy wizard" in LoS, there are are more than that. Or go the other side of the coin and say every Wizard within LoS gets the Miscast effects.

i think i know of a person on here, that could argue rediculous things for you if you really wanted him to....

Gork or Possibly Mork
03-02-2009, 10:19
I have a question. Can crystal of midnight make the new Kroak lose his only spell? I know it's unlikely with coldblooded Ld. but does he have any rule that says he can never lose his spell.

If a DE player pulls off Doom and Darkness+Crystal of midnight....Ouch!!!

I know other casters can use his PD's but that would suck if he lost his only spell.

Neckutter
03-02-2009, 10:20
it seems he can lose his only spell. his rules dont state that he cant lose it, funny stuff!

Gork or Possibly Mork
03-02-2009, 10:24
LOL!!! so I guess kroak has faced too many DE armies with that item because now he only has one spell left:p

dsw1
03-02-2009, 17:52
Blade of realities Vs Ranked units.

Say the blade hits a unit 4 times, and they fail 3 Ld tests, would that kill 3 separate models? I would assume so but I am unfamiliar with weapons of it's type in scenarios against ranked units.

Also against multi wounded creatures;

If a unit of 3 ogres is wounded 5 times, one ogre is removed and one takes 2 wounds. If you attack the unit with blade of realities and it fails 2 Ld tests, do two ogres die or just the one? What I am asking is do the Insta-deaths pass over to the next model in a unit or only specifically targeted models?

Finally, Do the hits that cause the insta-death still roll to wound and such which could potentially kill another model?

stripsteak
03-02-2009, 18:11
Blade of realities Vs Ranked units.

Say the blade hits a unit 4 times, and they fail 3 Ld tests, would that kill 3 separate models? I would assume so but I am unfamiliar with weapons of it's type in scenarios against ranked units.

Also against multi wounded creatures;

If a unit of 3 ogres is wounded 5 times, one ogre is removed and one takes 2 wounds. If you attack the unit with blade of realities and it fails 2 Ld tests, do two ogres die or just the one? What I am asking is do the Insta-deaths pass over to the next model in a unit or only specifically targeted models?

Finally, Do the hits that cause the insta-death still roll to wound and such which could potentially kill another model?

I'm pretty sure with multiwound models you remove whole models first when possible. So if you have 3 wounds from the blade, and 2 failed tests you would remove 2 models and the remaining wound owuld go to the third model. I'm pretty sure i remember reading thats how it works with killing blow(the special units that have KB that can effect US3+ models) but i can' remember where i saw that i think it was the ogre faq bu not sure.

for ranked units you would remove oen model for each unsaved test.

with blade of realities you only roll to wound as normal if the Ld test is passed.

JRD4
03-02-2009, 18:50
Does the Engine's 5+ ward save include itself when it says "all friendly units"?

Whaagnomore
03-02-2009, 19:05
Here is another question, in the LM armybook it doesnt say neither in the rules section or the rooster section that the Carnosaur is a large target, does this mean that it should be treated as a small target?

Bac5665
03-02-2009, 19:06
Yes. Nothing is a large target unless it says that it is. The Carnasaur doesn't, so it isn't.

Neckutter
03-02-2009, 19:12
in the LM armybook it doesnt say neither in the rules section or the rooster section that the Carnosaur is a large target?

GW is now classifying carnosaurs as roosters, thus not large targets.



:)

Necromancy Black
03-02-2009, 22:35
I refer to my carnosaur as my Battle-Cock.



With The Blade, whole models are removed for each test failed. For each test passed, you roll to wound as normal.

Neckutter
04-02-2009, 07:21
I refer to my carnosaur as my Battle-Cock.
.

funny, ever since i played empire(my first fully painted army when i got decent at painting) i played with an elector count on griffon.

ever since, i always call monstrous mounts "chickens".

"ok my DE lord has 4 attacks. oh and here is me rolling for my chicken as well"

Roxors45
04-02-2009, 18:13
Grammarhammer (though fun to say) makes my head hurt. If theres ever an argument I just roll off. There's no point trying to interpret GW because trolls and grammar nazi will just play devil's advocate. For my 2 cents, I will play it with my Lizardmen as a roll off if more than 1 wizard in range. Since a miscast is a random occurance and not necessarily expected I feel the magic item held is what saves the priest and throws the miscast out into another's mind randomly. Priest casts. Something hiccups and the priest lets out a small "eep" before the Cup wisks the bad juju away.


EDIT: If he (or me as the general) had the choice to choose which wizard was effected if more than one was in range, it would lead me to believe that I had some choice or power in directing this most unatural and surprising occurance. So since we leave casting a spell to chance (pass, fail, miscast or IR) so should we the enemy effected. Yay die rolls!

Roxors45
04-02-2009, 18:18
GW is now classifying carnosaurs as roosters, thus not large targets.



:)

Omg......with a little green stuff an some red yellow white.....I haven't decided on a color scheme yet.......oh noes. Battle chickens take arms!

grotnob
04-02-2009, 22:52
Heres my questions on the new Lizzies - How does putting a non-character fear causing figure (kroxis)in a unit of non fear causers (skinks)work ?
Do opponents have to make fear checks to charge you ?
Do you have to make fear check to charge fear causers?
What leadership do you use ?
Ther are rules for Fear Causing characters in units but none for non characters.

stripsteak
04-02-2009, 23:11
Heres my questions on the new Lizzies - How does putting a non-character fear causing figure (kroxis)in a unit of non fear causers (skinks)work ?
Do opponents have to make fear checks to charge you ?
Do you have to make fear check to charge fear causers?
What leadership do you use ?
Ther are rules for Fear Causing characters in units but none for non characters.

i believe the same as a character. the unit is counted as causing fear.
yes they have to pass a Ld test to charge you
no you don't have to because you are a fear causer
highest leadership available to the unit, same as always

at leasts thats how i see peopel playing them.

Necromancy Black
04-02-2009, 23:11
Grotnob, didn't you ever use Salamanders?


I have no idea why some Lizardmen players are confused byt the mixed kroxigor and skink units. The last book came about almost 6 years ago. Thats 6 years we've had Salamanders, a mixed unit of fear causes and non fear causes. Now we have the krox's with skinks and suddenly everyone is confused?!?!

Mixed units of fear causes and non-fear causes are not new, espicailly for Lizardmen. Play it how you've always played it.

grotnob
05-02-2009, 00:30
Oddly enough the problem never came up with my Sallies - either they weren't in combat or my opponant made their fear checks.

As for the Skink/Kroxi problem - isn't this another nail in Saurus' coffin - no one used to use them in 5th Ed becuase the mixed units had so many advantages.

Necromancy Black
05-02-2009, 00:53
pfffft. With a 4+ base save and spears at same points as they are now, not to mention they get 2 attacks with spears now, saursu are great.

Saurus blocks are going to be your front on attack/speed bumps. What these skink/krox units are going to do is flank the units in combat with the Saurus. I doubt the skinks are going to be that good by themselves or front on, no in the current game with the current top teir armies.

Neckutter
05-02-2009, 07:04
with saurus' being so good in HtH, you shouldnt need flankers. or at least, you should get some cold one riders to do the flanking.

i mean face it; saurus' with spears/shields are a just a tad below chaos warriors in HtH but the saurus are cheaper.

Staurikosaurus
05-02-2009, 07:51
most of the questions here would be answered if you did two things.
1. Read the main rulebook in a language that you are literate in
2. repeat as in the point previous, but with the army book

To the OP
1) What happens when bolt throwers shoot a mixed unit of Kroxigor and Skinks? (The book only says to randomize shooting such that on a 1-4 it hits Skinks and 5-6 it hits Krox. How does rank penetration work?)

In the same way. Shoot at the unit, randomize and resolve. example> shot at the unit, hit a skink. Wounded. Next rank is hit automatically, randomize who is hit and resolve. Repeat until a model is not killed or is not wounded.

2) What happens when the Poisoned Stegadon Great Bow rolls a 6, and how does this interact with rank penetration? (This issue is not addressed at all in the book; all we have is 'Poisoned' in the rules block.) Generally accepted: the first hit autowounds and remaining hits roll to wound as normal.

Rules as written. A roll of 6 to hit wounds all the way back through ranks until the strength of the bolt is reduced enough to make wounding the target impossible or the bolt has gone through all of the ranks in a unit.

3) Can Stegadon Great Bows and Ancient Stegadon Giant Blowpipes be used in a Stand and Shoot reaction? (No mention for or against is made in the rules text. These weapons are -not- classed as warmachines.) Generally accepted: they may Stand and Shoot as any shooting attack may be used when specific restrictions are not present.

The stegadon is a ridden monster with multiple riders. Can an elf on a dragon fire his bow as a stand and shoot? Yes. This one is easy people. Drop the war machine idea entirely out of your heads.

4a) Can the Stegadon Great Bow be fired by and using a Skink Chief's Ballistic Skill if he is on the Stegadon? (Again, not classed as warmachine. Bow says it is fired by two crew. Chief displaces one crew and is BS 5 instead of 3.)
4b) Can an Ancient Stegadon Giant Blowpipe be fired by and using a Skink Chief's Ballistic Skill? (Same as above but requires only one operator.)

Says on page 55 of the lizardmen book that both the blowpipes and the giant bow are fired by crew. The chief/priest are not crew members, despite what people may think. example> 3 frogs are sitting on a log. You displace one of the frogs. Are you now 1 of 3 frogs? Absolutely not. The same logic applies.

5) When is use of Huanchi's Blessed Totem declared -- when the charge is declared or when distance is measured? ('The unit can add d6" to its charge move. If the charge is failed, the unit will move forward at its normal movement rate.')

Declare your charge and add d6" to your maximum charge move. If you are in range of your target, applly any appropriate psychology tests then, if you are still in range with/without the additional movement complete the charge. If you are out of charge range, even with the additional charge distance alotted by the banner, the movement counts as a failed charge and the bonus distance is lost.

6) When using the Cupped Hands of the Old Ones to redirect a miscast, is the item used before or after the roll on the miscast table to determine the effect of the miscast? (The item states the enemy wizard suffers the 'effects' of the miscast.)

Honestly haven't run into this one. Though the item says if you miscast, roll a d6. It does NOT say roll on the miscast table then roll a d6 to determine if an enemy wizard suffers the effects. Therefore I'd suggest that you roll to determine if the bearer of the Cupped Hands is going to bear the result of the miscast or the target wizard, then roll to see what those results are.

7) Are hits from the Engine of the Gods' ability The Burning Alignment magical? (It says only strength 5 hits. This is mostly relevant for the next question.)

RAW no, RAI most likely.

8) Are hits from Miscasts magical, even though they are not specified to be? Is a model affected only by magical attacks immune to hits caused by miscast? (This is of interest to me primarily because of the last one.) Generally accepted: All hits in the magic phase are magical

Yes. Read each entry. 3-4 wizard's body is wracked with by a discharge of magical energy etc.

9) If Oxyotl requires a 6 to hit, and rolls a 5, is it poison? (His rules state only 'All attacks made by Oxyotl's blowpipe are poisoned on a To Hit roll of 5+.') Answered: DoC FAQ explicitly states Poison Attacks must hit to poison even if they autowound on less than 6. The attack would not therefore poison.

True, though RAW says they're wounded even though you did not roll high enough to hit :D

10) When the Cupped Hands of the Old Ones redirects a miscast and there are multiple enemy Wizards in LOS, which one does it hit? (The item says, '...if there is an enemy wizard within line of sight he will suffer its effects...')

I'd say just pick one, otherwise RAW would be all enemy wizards within line of sight (there's an enemy wizard in line of sight, there's an enemy wizard in line of sight, etc.)

To others

I agree with BoR operating the same as KB ;)


Heres my questions on the new Lizzies - How does putting a non-character fear causing figure (kroxis)in a unit of non fear causers (skinks)work ?
Do opponents have to make fear checks to charge you ?
Do you have to make fear check to charge fear causers?
What leadership do you use ?

This is explained on page 41 and by the Great Reach rule on page 53 of the Lizardmen army book

sorry for the long post, I'm sure at least one of you will read it if just to belittle dispute it :angel:

Neckutter
05-02-2009, 07:56
i read your long post and im only gonna disagree with you about cupped hands. it only affects one wizard in LOS, of the LM players' choosing if there is more than one. :)

the reason being if there are two enemy wizards in line of sight then "there is an enemy wizard in LOS" so cupped hands targets one of them.

EDIT: 7 &8) i would say that the EotG's hits are magical, since it isnt firing a "missle" weapon. RAW not magical, RAI magical, and undoubtedly the FAQ will say magical. same thing with miscast hits, RAW=no, RAI=yes. :)

2) a roll of a 6 to hit doesnt let the bolt go clear through the whole unit. it only autowounds the first dude, but you could still wound the second, third, fourth guy with poisoned attacks as well.

Necromancy Black
05-02-2009, 08:07
I neither disagree or agree with number 2.

Until an FAQ comes up, I'll apply that only the frist model is hit, because a) there is a reference of mutiple hits happening, everyone bu the first being auto (so you can't poison with auto hit) and b) the rules don't support either way enough.

But yeah, definitly needs an FAQ.

nosferatu1001
05-02-2009, 08:43
You can only poison where you have a "to hit" - so the second (etc) rows are automatically hit, meaning poison cannot work.

I would treat it as a way to avoid getting that annoying "1" on your first to wound roll :)

Embalmed
05-02-2009, 08:57
You can only poison where you have a "to hit" - so the second (etc) rows are automatically hit, meaning poison cannot work.

I would treat it as a way to avoid getting that annoying "1" on your first to wound roll :)

Not quite so clear unfortunately, if your to hit roll is a '6' you automatically wound 'the target'. No mention that you have to roll to hit that model.

So what is 'the target'? Is the second guy in the row behind not the target also? Is the target just the guy in the first row or is it the whole column you're firing at? Can a model be killed by an attack if he is not (part of) the target of the attack? When you fire a template/blast attack are all the models under the template targets or is it just the guy under the hole?

Embalmed
05-02-2009, 09:00
That being said, I'm leaning towards the 'no they all don't die' interpretation. It seems to me that the poison is intended to take down large targets more easily to, as you write, avoid those '1's and autowound big monsters.

Lord Khabal
05-02-2009, 09:03
agreed. no hit roll, no poison.

Embalmed
05-02-2009, 09:06
I'm just waiting for a poisoned stone thrower with no explanation how it would work :D

DeathlessDraich
05-02-2009, 09:51
Once again I haven't read the LM book.
Based on BRB Poisoned and Bolthrower rules:

2) Poisoned Bolt thrower.
a) Roll to hit -> BS.
b) A roll of 6 to hit counts as Poisoned (EDIT: unless 7 is required) and wounds automatically
c) The first rank is wounded and can roll for Regen. or a Ward save.
d) Penetration - It will only penetrate a rank if the model in that rank *is slain*.
e) If there are no Ward saves or Regen. , the Poisoned bolt will effectively auto-slay (if D3 wounds cover all wounds) and penetrate all available ranks

Gork or Possibly Mork
05-02-2009, 10:21
Does the Engine's 5+ ward save include itself when it says "all friendly units"?

I would like to hear what people think about this one as well. If the rule says all friendly units within 12" Id say yes the EotG gets the 5+ward. If it mentions within 12" and LOS then it does not.

Necromancy Black
05-02-2009, 10:28
Once again I haven't read the LM book.
Based on BRB Poisoned and Bolthrower rules:

2) Poisoned Bolt thrower.
a) Roll to hit -> BS.
b) A roll of 6 to hit counts as Poisoned (EDIT: unless 7 is required) and wounds automatically
c) The first rank is wounded and can roll for Regen. or a Ward save.
d) Penetration - It will only penetrate a rank if the model in that rank *is slain*.
e) If there are no Ward saves or Regen. , the Poisoned bolt will effectively auto-slay (if D3 wounds cover all wounds) and penetrate all available ranks

But if you read the rules it mentions that it hits the troop behind the last wound, and repeats the hits. This would mean the bolt thrower is autohitting and each hit is in fact seperate to the frist.

This makes sense as you keep having to roll to wound, meaning you are auto hitting. We already know from similair rules (killing blow) that if there is no dice roll made then the speacial rule has no affected.

So, only the model in the first rank can be hit by a poison hit. All others require you to roll to wound.

Embalmed
05-02-2009, 12:23
I think it depends on how you interpret the poison rule. One way would be the one Necromancy Black suggests, the other would be that if you roll a '6' to hit the attack get a 'wounds automatically' effect, which would mean the whole column gets poisoned.

Dead Man Walking
05-02-2009, 16:09
If I have Lord Mazumundi and a temple guard unit, is he required to join the unit? If he chooses to join the unit does the steggie that he rides go in the second rank?

nosferatu1001
05-02-2009, 16:50
Lord Mazdamundi is not a Slaan on Palanquin, so would not follow the rules.

By the text he also isnt a Slaan, he is a named character: for cf see Skulltaker, who CAN joing daemonettes as he strictly isn't a Herald.

DeathlessDraich
05-02-2009, 17:10
But if you read the rules it mentions that it hits the troop behind the last wound, and repeats the hits.

The rules are phrased in the way I've stated it.
"repeat the hits" - is not part of the rules.



This would mean the bolt thrower is autohitting and each hit is in fact seperate to the frist.

Again not in the rules

But I understand your position, I think :p
- You are saying that a Poisoned hit requires a to hit roll of 6.

That is correct and defines a Poisoned hit.

You've also extended the bolt thrower rules to include this rule

1) Each rank, after the first, requires a separate to hit roll of a 6, to qualify as a Poisoned hit.

2) Rule (1) assumes that no roll of a 6 has been made for that rank.

Both these rules are not stated in the Bolthrower rules.

The bolthrower rules stipulates:

1) 1 and only 1 roll to hit.

2) A S6 to wound roll for the first rank followed by rank penetration

3) Rank penetration requires only for the model to be slain followed by rolls to wound on a reduced strength.

The Bolthrower rules *do not state* that it has to be ascertained whether subsequent ranks are hit neither does it state they are auto-hit.
i.e. 'hits' does not apply

Rank penetration and wounds are entirely a wounding effect - requring no refernce to 'hits' at all.

The nature of the hit is only determined by the to hit roll which is done at the very start.
If it is Poisoned then it will remain poisoned as it is the *same* hit and not a new hit.


I think it depends on how you interpret the poison rule. One way would be the one Necromancy Black suggests, the other would be that if you roll a '6' to hit the attack get a 'wounds automatically' effect, which would mean the whole column gets poisoned.

See above.

If a hit is Poisoned, then that hits is always Poisoned - multiplied wounds etc are Poisoned. To assume it changes in nature is an unacceptable assumption.
If the hit causes another hit - (2 items IIRC - including a Nurgle gift), the second/rebound hit would obviously be different.

Dead Man Walking
05-02-2009, 22:20
He is on a palaquin as his rules specifically state that should his mount die then he continues to move using palaquin special rules. His Palaquin is merely on a stegadons back.

It also states that he is a level 4 slaan.

nosferatu1001
06-02-2009, 00:25
He however cannot be placed in the second rank as that is only for "SLann on Palanquin" not "Slaan on Palanquin on Stegadon"

walo
06-02-2009, 07:06
Q: when razordons take SaS reaction and two artillery dice are rolled:

if one of the dice rolls misfire, do the second result apply or the razordon doesn´t shoot at all...?

Asmodiseus
06-02-2009, 07:20
Q: when razordons take SaS reaction and two artillery dice are rolled:

if one of the dice rolls misfire, do the second result apply or the razordon doesn´t shoot at all...?

It states that if you roll a misfire the Razordon does not fire so whatever the other dice rolled is ignored.

EvC
06-02-2009, 11:23
Terradon rock-dropping note/ questions:
1) The drop rock ability can be used when charging, or even fleeing, or in fact at any point in the remaining moves phase, as long as a Terradon has moved over an enemy model.
2) How does this work with buildings? Is it a straight D6 hits no matter how many rocks are thrown at it, or D6 per Terradon?

Master Stark
07-02-2009, 01:18
5) When is use of Huanchi's Blessed Totem declared -- when the charge is declared or when distance is measured? ('The unit can add d6" to its charge move. If the charge is failed, the unit will move forward at its normal movement rate.')

Declare your charge and add d6" to your maximum charge move. If you are in range of your target, applly any appropriate psychology tests then, if you are still in range with/without the additional movement complete the charge. If you are out of charge range, even with the additional charge distance alotted by the banner, the movement counts as a failed charge and the bonus distance is lost.

Okay, but what about situations where if my charge range becomes 20" as opposed to 15", my opponent will change his charge reaction? Does he get to find out what I roll before or after he has declared his charge reactions?

Necromancy Black
07-02-2009, 01:23
I say you will have to declare that you are charging and declare you will using the banner. From here there are multiple ways you can do it, but for me I would have my oppanant make his charge reaction before I roll the dice and if it reaches he can't change his reaction.

stripsteak
07-02-2009, 05:04
Okay, but what about situations where if my charge range becomes 20" as opposed to 15", my opponent will change his charge reaction? Does he get to find out what I roll before or after he has declared his charge reactions?

you determine charge reaction before determine if the charge succeeds or not. so you would declare a charge with the use of the banner if you think the unit is withen the total charge range unit charge+max banner charge.

reactions owuld ythen be declared your oponent can stand in the hopes that you won't reach him just like any other charge he might think you can't fully reach.

you roll the dice and determine if your charge succeeds.

Hiratu
07-02-2009, 23:43
Figured I'd just ask this here instead of in a new thread:

What spells are the slann allowed to channel through skink priests?

I thought I had read it was only magic missiles, but the new lizardmen tatics article on the GW website specifically mentions Drain Life and Cleansing Flare. I know they have a habit of getting their own rules wrong, but I'm curious what the rule actually says.

Neckutter
08-02-2009, 00:12
yep, magic missles only.

gw needs to read their own material.

Tutore
02-03-2009, 20:45
I hope not to bore you with a rather stupid question. However, most question have obvious solution, here it is:
A Stegadon is stubborn.
A skink character isn't, however his leadership may be higher than that of a stegadon.
Now: when a mounted stegadon has to check leadership because of a loss in combat, what number shall he roll? I know a unit which is stubborn makes leadership rolls with his base leadership value, but in this case it's a mount and...well I'm not that sure.

Necromancy Black
02-03-2009, 21:13
The Stegadon is the skinks mount, meaning that the skinks on top, and any character, are also stubborn.

stripsteak
03-03-2009, 00:43
necromancy black is right, the rules for this are on page 79

Capt_Ithuriel
03-03-2009, 08:21
i read your long post and im only gonna disagree with you about cupped hands. it only affects one wizard in LOS, of the LM players' choosing if there is more than one. :)

the reason being if there are two enemy wizards in line of sight then "there is an enemy wizard in LOS" so cupped hands targets one of them.


I have to say, there is a compelling argument for multiple wizards to be effected by the cupped hands.
If only one enemy wizard effected, than grammerhammer requires some sort of verbiage about only one enemy wizard being effected. "an enemy wizard" does not preclude multiple enemy wizards from being effected, merely stipulating the basic minimums required for the item's ability to be triggered.

When the cupped hands are used, you should go through this series of questions for every model in your enemies army.
1) is he a wizard?
2) is he within 24" of the miscasting wizard with cupped hands?
3) Does he have LOS to the miscasting wizard with cupped hands?

If the answer to all three questions above are yes, then he should suffer the miscast effect.

For a one use 45 point item, that seems reasonable.

Joe

Tutore
03-03-2009, 10:54
Thanks for the help.

Nurgling Chieftain
03-03-2009, 13:01
"an enemy wizard" does not preclude multiple enemy wizards from being effected..."Not preclude" is not sufficient. It must include that ability to gain it.

Staurikosaurus
03-03-2009, 21:47
Exactly. Capt_Ithuriel, your argument is a logical fallacy called begging the question. The item effects only 1 enemy wizard.

beaumontbrawler
04-03-2009, 17:22
Facts:

Terradons start directly in front of enemy.

Terraonds fly over enemy, landing directly behind enemy and dropping rocks
during the course of their flight.

Wounds from dropped rocks causes panic test for enemy, which is failed.

Question:

Which direction does enemy flee?

stripsteak
04-03-2009, 18:20
away from the terradons current location. most likely.

standard panic checks for casualties are done at the end of the phase (pg 49) and flee directly away from the unit that caused the most casualties (also pg 49)

although you could use the case for fanatics, since they are doing damage as they move. and flee to the nearest table edge. which could cause them to flee through the terradons. since this case isn't specifically mentioned like the fanatics rule do, i would probably say you should follow the standard rules for 25% cause panic mentioned above

Desert Rain
05-03-2009, 14:41
I would say that they flee away from the terradons final position.

ewar
05-03-2009, 23:08
you determine charge reaction before determine if the charge succeeds or not. so you would declare a charge with the use of the banner if you think the unit is withen the total charge range unit charge+max banner charge.

reactions owuld ythen be declared your oponent can stand in the hopes that you won't reach him just like any other charge he might think you can't fully reach.

you roll the dice and determine if your charge succeeds.


I'm not sure this is true. You declare charges and they declare reactions. Before measuring the distance, you then state that your unit has a magic item adding D6" to the charge, then work out whether it succeeds fails.

The item declaration shouldn't affect their judgment of whether you're in charge range or not. This is the way its been played at every GT I've been to, as I always use the Bretonnian virtue that confers the same ability (Impetuous Knight I think...).

An experienced player will immediately think "hang on, thats easily 10", they must have some sort of tricksy item..."

woodulikeanother
06-03-2009, 02:16
They also have a different BS statistic, so it would make a difference if a skink crew (their name in the profile) is shooting instead of a skink chief (profile, notice how it doesn't say "crew" either? ;) lol )...

I won't be allowing characters to fire the howdah weaponry, unless a FAQ says so, but that affects only a small group of players here...


i agree with you, unless the skink is treated like a engineer, he might be able to use his BS and shoot the blowpipes or great bow, but only if he didnt cast magic in that turn, so kinda like an engineer if you use his BS or re-roll he cannot shoot his weapon as well

Gork or Possibly Mork
06-03-2009, 08:04
Figured I'd just ask this here instead of in a new thread:

What spells are the slann allowed to channel through skink priests?

I thought I had read it was only magic missiles, but the new lizardmen tatics article on the GW website specifically mentions Drain Life and Cleansing Flare. I know they have a habit of getting their own rules wrong, but I'm curious what the rule actually says.

Lol. They also made terradons auto-rally from the hit n run rule which gives them Feigned Flight like fast cavalry. @Adam Troke Feigned Flight does not make terradons auto rally. They also have a combined arms list with a regular stegadon ( not an ancient ) taking a rare slot:rolleyes:

Kroxigore
06-03-2009, 12:27
Okay, concerning Questions 4a/4b let us first collect facts. Some people seem to ignor/forget them:

1. Giant bows and giant blowpipes are not warmachines, so the whole engineer argument is obsolete and would rather lead to the conception, that characters may use them.

2. The wording (at least in the German version) states, that two/one crew member(s) are/is required to fire the bow/blowpipe.

On the second part, I would like to ask those of you, who have the english version of the book to look up one thing for me:
3. In the German version, it says under the point "Skink crew", that "...if a skink character is part of the crew...".

If the wording is the same in the english version, this would be the definite answer to questions 4a/4b, as the character is part of the crew and therefore may fire the bow.

Capt_Ithuriel
06-03-2009, 19:59
"Not preclude" is not sufficient. It must include that ability to gain it.

Now that I am home with my copy of the lizardman book in front of me, I feel comfortable to respond to this question.

This is as close to a text book example of an if/then statement at work. Lets break down the wording on cupped hands.

"One use only. If the bearer miscasts, roll a d6. On a roll of a 1 the bearer suffers the results of the miscast as normal."

First line is pretty straight forward.

"On a 2+ the miscast is ignored and if there is an enemy wizard within line of sight he will suffer the effects..."

So, the bearer rolls a double 1. Once a game, he can use the cupped hands to attempt to ignore the miscast. He can even do so if the enemy has no wizards. A roll of a 2+, means that the bearer ignores the miscast, regardless of whether or not there is an enemy wizard in LoS (in combet, etc.) However, if there is an enemy wizard, and he has LoS to the bearer, then he suffers a miscast.
For while one can argue the use of a singular tense means one, and only one enemy wizard is affected, then if/then format of the statement argues that "if wizard(enemy) = LoS then suffer miscast else no effect."

If you want an "In game" explanation, the cupped hands dissipates the miscast energy into a pulse that overloads the minds of any enemy wizard who happens to be looking at the caster at the time of the miscast.

Again, for a 45 point one use item, I think that it is within the bounds of reason to affect multiple enemy wizards.
Frankly, I would have much preferred a multi-use item that simply ignored miscasts on a 2+.

Joe

Kroxigore
07-03-2009, 12:27
I have two 'new' questions, I thought, I'd just post them here and not open a new thread. Both concern Stegadons and riders wearing a Carnosaur-necklace:
1. If the rider dies, the Stegadon should continue being subject to frenzy. Now, does it also keep its frenzy, if it looses in CC afterwords?
2. What about the other crew members, are they subject to frenzy? The arguments for that would be something like this:
If the rider is subject to frenzy, the Stegadon is also subject to frenzy and if the stegadon is subject to frenzy, the other riders are also...

So what do you think about those two points?

Necromancy Black
07-03-2009, 12:39
Yes to the crew also having frenzy because as you said, the mount is subject to the rule.

No to it keeping frenzy. I hate people saying that a magic item will continue working once it's out of play, I see that as cheating.

As per the rules, they becoem subject to frenzy, they don't get the frenzy rule added to their profile. This is the same as with the Skaven pelt banner and people saying frenzy stays if the BSB leaves the unit.

IMO, cheating.

EDIT:: I'm not trying to ahve a go at you Kroxigore, I just really that this sort of thing. The item gives you an ability. Without the item, why should you keep it?

Nurgling Chieftain
08-03-2009, 00:25
While I agree that items cease to function when their bearer is removed from play (unless otherwise stated), I don't think it's appropriate to characterize a simple and common rule misunderstanding as "cheating".

Kroxigore
08-03-2009, 20:40
Well, I am relatively neutral concerning the Stegadon keeping frenzy, I just read somewhere else, that it is a common rules interpretation, that frenzy doesn't go away, if the item causing it disappears. Just wanted to ask how the common interpretation would be. If anyone can give a reference for the interpretation, that I posted above, that's okay, otherwise, I would agree with both of you guys.

soots
09-03-2009, 00:52
Id probably play a panic test from Terradon rocks as if it was second turn. IE to closest table edge.

It doesnt make sense to flee directly towards the enemy lines.

Nurgling Chieftain
09-03-2009, 04:20
...I just read somewhere else, that it is a common rules interpretation, that frenzy doesn't go away, if the item causing it disappears.It's a common rules mistake. It comes solely from the fact that frenzy goes away when you're beaten in HtH. People take that to mean that it only goes away under that circumstance, but there is no rule to that effect.

strewart
09-03-2009, 04:50
Well, I'm not going to read through all 6 pages so I guess each question has been discussed a lot. At this point, I think it is going to be a matter of an FAQ coming out to fix it. For what its worth, here is my opinion:


1) What happens when bolt throwers shoot a mixed unit of Kroxigor and Skinks? (The book only says to randomize shooting such that on a 1-4 it hits Skinks and 5-6 it hits Krox. How does rank penetration work?)

Never thought about that... It is a really difficult question, I would probably randomize at each rank where there is a mixed unit. This could get messy if a single krox (across 2 ranks) finds himself being hit twice though.

2) What happens when the Poisoned Stegadon Great Bow rolls a 6, and how does this interact with rank penetration? (This issue is not addressed at all in the book; all we have is 'Poisoned' in the rules block.) Generally accepted: the first hit autowounds and remaining hits roll to wound as normal.

It seems powerful, but really if you roll a 6 to hit with poison then whatever you hit is poisoned, you hit the entire rank so I think it goes straight through. As I have said on other forums, it isn't as powerful as it seems since the chances of getting a 6 to hit are fairly small especially considering the stegadon is trying to get to combat as quickly as possible, and its still only going to kill 3-4 models which isn't a lot really.

3) Can Stegadon Great Bows and Ancient Stegadon Giant Blowpipes be used in a Stand and Shoot reaction? (No mention for or against is made in the rules text. These weapons are -not- classed as warmachines.) Generally accepted: they may Stand and Shoot as any shooting attack may be used when specific restrictions are not present.

Definitely, they aren't warmachines so they can stand and shoot

4a) Can the Stegadon Great Bow be fired by and using a Skink Chief's Ballistic Skill if he is on the Stegadon? (Again, not classed as warmachine. Bow says it is fired by two crew. Chief displaces one crew and is BS 5 instead of 3.)

Another tough question, as with the blowpipes. I'm leaning toward yes he can, BS3 is really poor so it makes sense that if you lend the points of a hero you can use his BS, and he does become one of the crew.

4b) Can an Ancient Stegadon Giant Blowpipe be fired by and using a Skink Chief's Ballistic Skill? (Same as above but requires only one operator.)

5) When is use of Huanchi's Blessed Totem declared -- when the charge is declared or when distance is measured? ('The unit can add d6" to its charge move. If the charge is failed, the unit will move forward at its normal movement rate.')

Never thought about this one.. I would think it would have to be done when you declare the charge, not after measuring.

6) When using the Cupped Hands of the Old Ones to redirect a miscast, is the item used before or after the roll on the miscast table to determine the effect of the miscast? (The item states the enemy wizard suffers the 'effects' of the miscast.)

I think before for this one. It clearly states the target ignores 5-6 indicating that if you rolled that, it just nullifies the miscast. It also says 'If the bearer miscasts, roll a D6', I took this to mean it had to be the first miscast, and you do that before miscast effects.

7) Are hits from the Engine of the Gods' ability The Burning Alignment magical? (It says only strength 5 hits. This is mostly relevant for the next question.)

Yes. The real question is are they fire too? In an FAQ a while ago, GW said anything that sounded fire but didn't explicitely state it (ie. salamanders in the old rules) were still flaming. On the other hand, that was before the universal flaming special rule came in...

8) Are hits from Miscasts magical, even though they are not specified to be? Is a model affected only by magical attacks immune to hits caused by miscast? (This is of interest to me primarily because of the last one.) Generally accepted: All hits in the magic phase are magical

Yes, miscasts seem very magical to me. Would be cool if the Slann's ethereal ability could make it immune to miscast, but really if you are messing around with magic and it goes wrong you are getting hit with magic.

9) If Oxyotl requires a 6 to hit, and rolls a 5, is it poison? (His rules state only 'All attacks made by Oxyotl's blowpipe are poisoned on a To Hit roll of 5+.') Answered: DoC FAQ explicitly states Poison Attacks must hit to poison even if they autowound on less than 6. The attack would not therefore poison.

10) When the Cupped Hands of the Old Ones redirects a miscast and there are multiple enemy Wizards in LOS, which one does it hit? (The item says, '...if there is an enemy wizard within line of sight he will suffer its effects...')

I guess you get to choose...

Really there is a lot of the book GW could have written a lot better, and should have. Glancing through I spotted several bad typos, and there are obviously lots of really badly worded sections leading to lots of questions.

vanakenm
19-03-2009, 17:50
Speaking of the Cupped Hands, I got my share of questions :

I did not use it (yet), but I'm wondering about its effect on some miscasts results.

Taking the miscast table :

2 : No problem... Except if the cupped hand is seen as "any protective magic or special rule". I would say cupped apply, someone thinks otherwise ?
3-4 : OK
5-6 : Ignored as cupped rule, OK
7 : Strength 2 hit ok, what about losing power dice (the adversary does not have power dice at this time !) ?
8-9 : Actually very bad, but OK rulewise, the magic phase would end, I suppose. But this means that a one time object of 45 points will not help you in a signifiant number of cases... (5-6 + 8-9...)
10-11 : Ok for the hit and level lost, but what about the lost spell ? He did'nt cast any !
12 : The spell goes off, I'll say. But after ? The targeted wizard loose a spell ? Which one ?

I think this need a lot of FAQ, but I would be interested to know how you play it, as I did see the Cupped Hands in lots of Lizardmen list in the "army list" forum...

Thanks,

Martin

Nurgling Chieftain
19-03-2009, 18:51
2: This has been debated under similar circumstances. I don't think people actually agreed on a conclusion.
7: No power dice to lose, none lost; this can apply just as easily to the person whose turn it is at the time, after all
8-9: Yeah, this one still bites you
10-12: Precedent from WoC FAQ regarding Hellcannon forced miscast: no spell is lost

Spirit
19-03-2009, 19:09
Facts:

Terradons start directly in front of enemy.

Terraonds fly over enemy, landing directly behind enemy and dropping rocks
during the course of their flight.

Wounds from dropped rocks causes panic test for enemy, which is failed.

Question:

Which direction does enemy flee?


Id probably play a panic test from Terradon rocks as if it was second turn. IE to closest table edge.

It doesnt make sense to flee directly towards the enemy lines.

Ok, these are the rules as i see it

1: You must complete your move before dropping rocks, this is the only way that makes sense

2: When you fail a panic check, you run directly away form the cause, which in this case will be the terradons, in their final position. You cannot flee from where they started their move, because there is nothing in that position to run away from.

3: thus, you run directly away from the terradons final position.


Soots: Are you really suggesting that if a terradon jumps 1" behind a unit and makes it fail a panic check, it will instantly kill the unit? This seems extremely silly to me. More silly than running towards the enemy anyway.

If a unit of chameleons deploys behind your lines and causes a panic check, you do not run to the nearest edge, you run away from the chameleons, regardless of direction.

perplexiti
19-03-2009, 20:16
I've taken the cupped hands every time I've taken my slann, so far I've used it every game. I use it before I roll on the miscast table, because thats just the way I thought it would work.

nosferatu1001
20-03-2009, 09:32
It does state that "the enemy suffers the miscast result" which would see to indicate you use Cupped Hands before rolling - i.e. you dont get to see how bad the miscast is before you use the item.
It's another tricky ithem wording, so like most things raise it before the game and come to a sensible agreement (roll before or after, always works etc)

Staurikosaurus
21-03-2009, 10:27
If you read the wording of the item (pg 102) then it could really be interpreted either way (roll on the table and decide to use the cupped hands or decide to use the cupped hands and force your opponent to roll on the miscast table). I guess what we all need to consider is the following: Is 45 pts for a one use only item enough to allow the lizardmen player to roll on the miscast table before deciding to use the item?

IMO yes.

Shamfrit
21-03-2009, 10:37
Stegadons cannot stand and shoot with their weapons, because they're Immune to Psychology and can't declare charge reactions I believe.

Necromancy Black
21-03-2009, 11:52
Stegadons cannot stand and shoot with their weapons, because they're Immune to Psychology and can't declare charge reactions I believe.

Immune to psychology only prevents choosing fleeing as your charge reaction, everything else is fine.

Undead use to have a rule saying they could only hold and neither flee nor stand and shoot. I think your getting these mixed up.

Shamfrit
21-03-2009, 11:59
It is more than likely Necromancy, more than likely :D

Oh, and to think of the damage I could've done to my mate's Eternal Guard last night if I'd read the rules lol.

Dungeon_Lawyer
22-03-2009, 00:04
Again, you are arguing heavily without the the armybook in front of you. (correct?)


Thus, if the armybook actually states that "'the controlling player gets to select/choose which wizard suffers the effects of the miscast," or something akin to that, then you would be right.

Otherwise, I just can not see a 20pt (?) item having that much power. Even for GW.

The rules of the item need to be explicit. So far, we dont have that in this instance here.



BTW, I too would love to loosely interpret magical items and their effects for my Lizardmen army. However, it would be poor sport on my part to casually make a ruling and stand by it without open and hostile criticism from my gaming opponents.


You are going top be soooooo in the minority on this one. Your interpretation is "filling in the blanks' left out by GW as much as anybody here. This "its the closest mage in LOS" who suffers the effect does not sit right with me anyway. But to each there own.

Until faq'd otherwise Im making the vamplord whose 23" away and in LOS suffering the effects of the miscast rather than the stupid 1st level necromancer 8" away and in LOS everytime. I suggest every other lizardman player do the same.

Lanes
12-05-2009, 21:29
Another question:
The magic items labeled to be palaquins.. if a character choses one of these, must the modell be mounted on a palaqun (with a large base). and may one character have more than one palaqun?

Ace_Murdoc
12-05-2009, 23:43
Otherwise, I just can not see a 20pt (?) item having that much power. Even for GW.

The rules of the item need to be explicit. So far, we dont have that in this instance here.


This item costs 45pts and is one use only. For a one use only item it would make sense that the controlling player gets to choose the target. Since there is no maximum range why would you not be able to fire it at anyone?

Shamfrit
13-05-2009, 00:29
If it does negate a double one miscast result, then it raises questions about Curse Charm too - in the instane where you might hypathetically want them to re-roll a double 1, say, to get a 5-6 result and a free spell.

Tykinkuula
13-05-2009, 10:57
Another question:
The magic items labeled to be palaquins.. if a character choses one of these, must the modell be mounted on a palaqun (with a large base). and may one character have more than one palaqun?

They are not palanquins, they are plaques

Palanquin = A chair carried by one or more carriers
Plaque = A stone or metal slab with writing on it (like the 10 commands of Moses on stone slabs)