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Mkstein
02-02-2009, 11:30
Does anyone else agree that GW is overfantasizing the LoTR range? I don't mean the WoTR, just the minis coming out

For example, the Black numenoreans - vampire counts, anyone?
The rumoured 'Stormcaster' - Wood Elf wizard?

Admitedly, they have run out of major movie stuff to plug, but this seems to me to be taking away what attracted my to LoTR in the first place - it's not 'High Fantasy', with too many vampires etc..., but has some aspects of it.

ShotAtDawn
02-02-2009, 12:10
Well Black Numenoreans are mentioned in the LoTR Appendices, Writiten about riding out of Minas Morgul and the Mouth of Sauron is a Black Numenoreans. So I cant see your point about them.

Stromcaster is a maybe. We do see that Elrond was able to control the fond to raises up and wash the Nazgul away. So Elves maybe able to control the weather. Though GW maybe pushing it.

I have to say that moast of the time GW cant just put out any models they want they need to be passed by Tokien entprises/Time warner. For Example a friend of mine wanted to run a game at Games day and had to have the Sceanrio passed by Time Warner before he could run it. So you cant heap the blame on Gw:P

Shadowheart
02-02-2009, 12:14
Yeah, loads of people say the same thing. They're wrong, though. The only reason that this stuff gets interpreted as Warhammer-ish is because it's being interpreted by Warhammer fans.

ragnarok14
02-02-2009, 12:18
Didn't most fantasy stuff have some of its origins in Lotr?

lorelorn
02-02-2009, 12:21
When people don't understand just how much of modern 'fantasy' is directly or indirectly derived from Tolkien they might think this. They are wrong.

Cpt. Drill
02-02-2009, 12:26
I am not just going to rant Tolkien lore at you but these things all exist in his original writings, Melkor created vampires (blood sucking bats) and some of his minions were granted the power to transform into these creatures (including himself).

Black numenoreans were one part of the numinorians who survived their kingdom being destroyed and settled in umbar.

I like the fact that they are making more Tolkien history into models, it gives more range and depth to the battles you can play out!

Simon Sez
02-02-2009, 12:31
Stormcaster? First I've heard of this, sources?

I think a major drawback to the current (non-film) miniatures range is that GW has no template to work from. When the film releases came they looked fantastic because they were squarely fixed in reality; mainly because almost all the costumes had been designed with that in mind. Now however they are trying to be independently creative, or stretch a concept further and further (The Black Numenoreans are clearly based on the Mouth of Sauron, but lack the reality framework to support them)

However it's not all bad; most of the Fiefdoms miniatures are good-to-excellent, the Mahud are plausible, barring the Camels, and the Morannon Orcs are a huge step forward from the Mordor Orc plastics. So it's a mixed bag really, just like any other miniatures range.

Nuada
02-02-2009, 12:42
In the book the wargs can talk black speech. They were possibly descended from werewolves in the 1st age (these were wolves with a Maiar spirit in them) Different to the werewolves we know, they weren't shapeshifters. There's a vampire in the first age, a woman called Thuringwethil, i vaguely remember Beren or Luthien disguising themselves as a vampire to get close to Morgoth. (again vampires aren't the same, he uses it to mean a bat like creature. Not the blood sucking vampire we all know) So, there's a quite alot of fantasy/myth in there

Saying that though, it does amaze me when GW ask tolkien ent when they bring out a new figure that's made up by GW. Tolkien ent always says yes, it does seem a very lenient copyright. I agree with Capt Drill though, i like the extra depth to ME

HsojVvad
02-02-2009, 13:20
.

Stromcaster is a maybe. We do see that Elrond was able to control the fond to raises up and wash the Nazgul away. So Elves maybe able to control the weather. Though GW maybe pushing it.



Are you talking about the scene in the book where once Frodo got stabbed by the Morigul Blade and was being taken to Rivendelle by horse and the Nazul was washed away in the river, and the waves of the River looked like horses?

If so, wasn't it Gandalf who casted the spell? I know in the movie it was Arwen, but in the books I remember it being Gandalf not Elrond.

Sniper Kelly
02-02-2009, 13:30
It was Elrond and Gandalf (Gandalf was responsible for the white horses).

I don't mind the made-up stuff as long as it's plausible. I quite like the idea of a wood elf Stormcaster.

Nuada
02-02-2009, 13:31
From what i remember it is Elrond who has control over the ford, Gandalf adds the horses

lotrchampion
02-02-2009, 15:09
Considering that the Eldar had a lot of power in what mortals would call 'magic' before the War of Wrath, I don't think its far fetched to allow Wood Elves a 'Stormcaster'. Considering the concept as someone who holds Ulmo and Yavanna in particular reverance and has studied nature in many aspects, and knows how to manipulate it...it seems very plausible.

As has been said, Black Numenoreans have an extremely solid background in Tolkien's works. Vampires are also an established part of his legendarium, featuring prominently in the Tale of Beren and Luthien where firstly Sauron escapes Huan and Luthien in vampire form, and then when Luthien takes on the form of Thuringwethil, one of Morgoth's messengers, and Beren takes on the form of Drauglin the great wolf to gain entrance to Angband. This is also another example of the Elves' 'mystical powers'-where Luthien allows herself and Beren to take on these forms, and also earlier in the same tale when Felagund grants himself and Beren the visage of Orcs as they try to pass the Isle of Werewolves.

As has been said, so much Fantasy, especially Warhammer, has origins in Tolkien's works, that it can seem a little circular to think of GW making LotR into Fantasy. I personally don't mind most stuff GW come out with, but I understand some people often prefer to play the game closer to the canon. Its really a give-or-take based on your own opinion.

Joewrightgm
02-02-2009, 15:48
I think that LoTR isn't as has already been stated.

Also, I think Matt Ward's explanation in the front of Shadow in the East is a great one: where they created new profiles, they tried keep with Tolkein's vision as well as use real world cultures to base things on much as tolkein did.

Mkstein
02-02-2009, 16:08
Okay, interesting.

Just on the Numenoreans point, it wasn't that they didn't exist, it was the models themselves - they seem to be really distant from the cleaner (not sure if its the right word) style of models the originals (models of stuff from the movies) have.

I think Simon Sez summed it up pretty well - the original models where based on real costumes, whereas these new ones weren't.

I'm not saying the game direction is wrong, but just that more of the models than before seem to be very fantasy like. Probably my fault for being so ineloguent when typing.

Pitalla Crimson
02-02-2009, 16:29
Morgul Knight models rock, however I am against all of em looking very similar to the mouth of sauron. But that aint a big deal is it?

But wath I am against is on the making of generic wizards for almost all races, for example:
Shamans for orcs its acceptable but stormcasters for elves? gimmie a break....
Also elven catapult... hahahha well no comments there.

NemesisCH
02-02-2009, 16:40
Morgul Knight models rock, however I am against all of em looking very similar to the mouth of sauron. But that aint a big deal is it?

But wath I am against is on the making of generic wizards for almost all races, for example:
Shamans for orcs its acceptable but stormcasters for elves? gimmie a break....
Also elven catapult... hahahha well no comments there.


Why, defend a Elven fortress in the second war. There many ways to play and with the new miniatures...
... the only more ways. Fine with me!


---
Sorry for my englisch!
---

baphomael
02-02-2009, 21:06
Does anyone else agree that GW is overfantasizing the LoTR range? I don't mean the WoTR, just the minis coming out

For example, the Black numenoreans - vampire counts, anyone?
The rumoured 'Stormcaster' - Wood Elf wizard?

Admitedly, they have run out of major movie stuff to plug, but this seems to me to be taking away what attracted my to LoTR in the first place - it's not 'High Fantasy', with too many vampires etc..., but has some aspects of it.

The black numenorians are obviously influenced on the visual themes of the Mouth of Sauron - their armour and clothing is of a similar style, so you cant really blame GW for that one.

lotrchampion
02-02-2009, 22:43
I must confess, I disagreed with the concept of the BNs both in appearance and profile until I actually spoke to Matt Ward the other week at GT. According to him, the BNs in the Mordor book are not meant to be simply descendants of treacherous Numenoreans, as the inhabitants of Umbar are, but instead more in the vein of the MoS-corrupted men given over to the study of black arts and hateful ideals, ultimately their visage being affected to the point where they are terrible to look upon. I still think them having Terror is a little OTT, but I guess since there are no different levels of Terror in the system (one of the few flaws IMO), its a little tricky to implement otherwise. However, I guess that specific subject is for discussion on a different topic...*goes off to start said topic*

synapse
03-02-2009, 14:53
a lot of people forget (or choose to ignore) the fact the tolkien himself used to say that he wanted his writings to be the beginning of something rather than an end, and confessed to liking the idea that others would be able to interpret his works in different ways and to add things to them.

GW is doing just that now, and lots of people are complaining.

i understand how some people might not like that GW are selling these things as tolkien, rather than stuff GW created in tolkiens worlds, though i think its a moot point. if you dont like it dont use it, but dont enforce your view on others who dont agree

Mkstein
03-02-2009, 17:18
I didn't mean to try and force it on anyone, no no! I just wanted to see what other peoples opinions were. I must admit, I didn't know about what Tolkien said and the Mat Ward thoughts seem to put a new spin on it. Thanks guys - you've opened my eyes

Dragon Prince of Caledor
03-02-2009, 18:01
I agree about some of the overfantasizing i suppose. I dont even like a lot of the new stuff. Did the Eldar ever use siege engines? this is an actual question because im curious. The Elder Elves seem to have skill in the ways of magic and manipulation of some natural forces I guess. I think that belongs out of the third age for the most part though as the elves were "less" active in fighting sauron in this age.

I am sure that this is going to sound redundant but i want to say it anyway. I think if gw made an expansion into the silmarillion it would be the coolest thing ever. Fingolfin, Thingol, Beren, Luthien, Melkor, the Maiar, the Noldor, Sindar, the house of Hador etc etc not to mention dragons and balrogs (not that these monsters are plural ;) ) Mass orc hordes, elvent knights. It would be incredible. I can think of one model I think would fit this description as we dont have movies to mimic in the ways of models.
I painted my high elf prince/banner bearer on horse as a dragon prince but he has one of the heads with a small discrete crown and long hair. I think that model would be a really cool Fingolfin model. A range of Noldor would be amazing. I dont like most of the new LOTR stuff so i would want them to go "old school" on this type of range to prevent it from being cartoony if that makes any sense to people.
Just one guy's thoughts.

Simon Sez
03-02-2009, 18:27
My arguement to the elven Siege Engine debate has always been that, even after being involved in two major wars which included prolonged siege actions, there is no mention of Elves using Siege Engines.

Siege of Angband (which was, in fairness, built out of a mountain range) was a watchful peace with the sons of Feanor commandinng the marches around Melkors realm.

Siege of Barad-Dur is strangely lacking on information, but from it's longevity (Seven years) I think it is fair to assume they somehow planned to starve out a Maia and his legions of quick-breeding, cannibalistic minions.

There is mention of the forces of Lorien bringing down the fortress of Dol Guldur during the War of the Ring, but the description is very vague:
"They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."

From the phrasing I prefer to believe this was an example of one of the bearers of the Elven Rings flexing their magical muscle than her taking turns as an artillerywoman.

Bento
04-02-2009, 03:57
Things like Elf siege weapons seem to me like they'd fit into that 'playspace', for lack of a better word, that Tolkien himself suggested. Depending on the weapons - I don't think it's against the spirit of Tolkien for the Elves to use catapults or even ballistae. Now, if they were throwing enemy heads or flaming arrows then yes, that's too much, I think.

It took me a while to get used to the Shamans, but they're not so bad - though I don't quite know what there would be to get all shamanic about for Orcs and Uruks - Sauron? As long as things like this Elf Stormcaster remain subtle, I'm cool. Say, things like summoning winds to make shooting more difficult, or using the wind to send commands further. If we're in lightning bolt and fireball territory I think we've overstepped the bounds of what is, in many ways, a low magic world.

I mean, it's not like Middle-Earth is low magic per se, but the people who use magic do so subtly - things that aren't subtle tend to be excesses of technology, rather than excesses of magic.

Dr Death
04-02-2009, 10:06
LotR being over fantasised? It's a tricky one because it requires you to define just what is and isnt 'Tolkienian' which is tricky and does mean that when GW overstep the mark people are going to complain (and me especially).

To me, the greatest danger to the game as a representation of Tolkien's world and not of some generic fantasy is GW's love of 'novelty' additions, for example Moria Goblin Prowlers, Corsair Arbalesters and Reavers, Dwarf Vault-Wardens, Iron Guard. These are the troops which in my broadest definition require more than three words to explain the purpose of what makes them unique. So for example Rohan Royal Guard are alright since they can be adequately surmised with 'Rohan Bodyguards' as are Beserkers since they can be nicely surmised as 'Uruk shock troops', but how the hell do you explain Dwarf vault wardens? 'Two man dwarf pike team'? 5 words 'Dwarf shield and pike combo'? another 5. 'Dwarf tunnel blockers' comes out at 3, but what do those words mean? Some kind of portable barricade? Doesnt quite explain it for me.

Now that is a very crude definition and i daresay the clever among you if you listen to a word i say have already come up with plenty of three word explainations for any number of these (and probably a few examples from the books and films which take more than three words to explain (By the by GotFC could be surmised with 'Gondorian ceremonial bodyguard' ;))), but it's all a bit reminiscent of warhammer army lists for my tastes with every possible permutation squeezed out of the different armies and endangering one of the key things that defines LotR as a game for me- It's not what you've got but how you use it that matters :D.

Dr Death

lotrchampion
04-02-2009, 10:47
Prowlers:- "Goblin King's enforcers"
If you read GW's background on them, they are described as those Goblins under the command of the Goblin King who enforce his will.

Corsair Arbalesters:-Since an Arbalest is simply a medieval crossbow, this is simply "Crossbowmen". Historically, the idea is from as early as Homer's Illiad, of an archer hiding behind a shield, but it was most used during the Middle Ages when crossbowmen used Pavises to protect themselves from returning fire, often planted in the ground with a spike. So, my words for these are "Corsair Crossbowmen".

Corsair Reavers:-"Corsair shock troops".

Iron Guard:-"Dwarf Shock troops".

Dwarf Vault Wardens-"Dwarf Tunnel Blockers" explains it perfectly well for me. They're Dwarves. Their role is to block tunnels. Simple. Yes, it is a portable barricade, once again essentially a large pavise with a spear support. What are they doing with them? Blocking Tunnels.

The only one of these I really don't think fits *that* well with Tolkien is the Vault Wardens, as in the background I can't see Dwarves simply blocking a hole with a big shield and cowardly poking their enemies with spears. Instead, I'd see them simply using simply shieldwall tactics, which with the endurance and tenacity of Dwarves should hold in good stead against Goblins. When writing themed scenarios that fit with the books, I wouldn't find place for them. But as has been said, its a matter of personal choice.

Elven Siege Weapons, I can't see issue with. Elven Chariots....nyeh, there I can find issue. I'd far rather have the Elves making use of a combination of light horse archers and heavy cavalry, as they do in the Silmarillion, but hey.

Bento
04-02-2009, 15:32
Well, the troops types don't bother me so much. Given that Tolkien was (thankfully, in my opinion) not concerned with yammering on and on about the minutiae of different armies and their equipment, it still leaves a lot of space open for said troop types.

There's certainly a point at which it gets kind of silly - Rohan just doesn't strike me as the sort of kingdom that's going to have too many rigid definitions and regiments and that sort of business. Riders and Warriors are a general muster, Royal Guard are a standing bodyguard, outriders are standing scouts (and they keep villages in some mild contact with each other by carrying news and such, I'd think), and you put a few more in.

Things like Corsair reavers and Arbalests? Well, they're ultimately just more Corsairs. A pirate mass isn't going to be hugely concerned about who's doing what, but it's important for the game.

Where I actually have difficulties thinking about is in the Uruks. You've got scouts, regulars, ferals, berserkers, mordor, engineers? But that's not so weird either, since Saruman created them all for the purpose of war, and thus could conceivably have created different types. More importantly though, it fits into his whole 'fires of industry' thing. Categorising and distinguishing is something Isengard would do.

Dr Death
04-02-2009, 16:02
Bento i love you- that's pretty much exactly the point i was getting at. The minutae and tiny permutations just for the sake of gaming. Corsair arbalesters i do consider to be a novelty since if they were just as Champ says 'Corsair crossbowmen' why would they have pavises? They're fighting from ships, they're not going to have shields you have to stick into the ground and form a battleline with. And if they dont have pavises, considering it's established bows are the corsair missile weapon of choice, then what's the point in them?

Feral Uruks are another example- pointless, they're essentially covered by Beserkers. Same goes for Iron Guard- The background says they guard caravans but isnt that role pretty much taken by Dwarf rangers? And as for their heavy armour, that's pretty much covered by Khazad Guard. Rohan Outriders i actually dislike since essentially that's what every Rider of Rohan is- a patrolling horseman carrying news and bringing aid. Outriders would actually be better served in Gondor where we have the errand riders like Hirgon.

And then there are Osgiliath veterans- arent they basically covered by the standard Warriors of Minas Tirith?

I do apologise that this has turned into a rant but i'm just making my criticisms known in the hopes it will make it more logical than my glib three word definition theory:rolleyes:

Dr Death

Bento
04-02-2009, 20:01
Re: riders of Rohan.
I don't know - I'm not a Tolkien expert by any means, but I sort of pictured that Riders - like Warriors - would show up when the village chief or the King's emissary showed up and asked for able bodied men to turn up and bring what arms and armour they could. Riders would just happen to be wealthy enough to bring along their horse. Just given the massive numbers of riders seen in the film and the game, I don't see the land being able to support a force that did nothing other than ride around and fight all day.

Osgiliath Veterans are absolutely covered, as are ferals. I just look at them as a gameplay thing and not as a story thing. And if I was playing against someone and they wanted to say 'well, these 5 warriors use Veteran profiles (and have paid the points) then I'd be perfectly happy with it, as long as I could keep them straight in my head. Presumably Gondor does indeed have veterans, and I don't see anything wrong, in game, of having them as separate from regulars, but I think from a story point of view Gondor isn't going to have 'veteran regiments' or anything.

Corsairs I'm pretty mixed about. On the one hand, they already have bows, and pavises don't seem to me make much sense on ships. On the other, PJ's vision and the whole ravages of industry thing means it makes sense thematically for those under the seay of Sauron to be using mechanical devices that let you churn out soldiers with mediocre training rather than using bows that take much longer to learn to use well.

Iron Guard and Khazad Guard I don't much care to distinguish between. :P

Dragon Prince of Caledor
04-02-2009, 20:11
Sorry to be a little off topic but please bear with me. Does anyone think it would be possible to take the LotR rules and form appropriate models/scenarios/scenery for the first age of middle earth? I think that would yield the nicest models and games imaginable!!! You would have to make the stats relative of course...

Dr Death
04-02-2009, 20:21
Well on a note about the riders (going slightly off topic but just to clarify), while not stated explicitly there seem to be a number of units 'on the go'- Eomer's riders were just doing routine patrols of Rohan when they encountered the Uruk-hai carrying Merry and Pippin. Equally Theodred, Elfhelm and Grimbold have an active body of riders at their disposal when battling at the fords of Isen, and the defences at Helms Deep are not unmanned when Theoden shows up. The great muster of Edoras as happens in RotK is very much an anomally- a 'once in a lifetime' duty of all Rohan's citizens for when the King requires the full strength of Rohan in war. The impression you get otherwise is one of a roving defence of Rohan's many small villages, probably called from the chosen resident town of the various low level nobility.

This is a very unprofessional exploration- i should add book references and quotes but frankly i cant be arsed to spend the time doing it. You'll just have to take my word for it, but Unfinished tales 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen' and 'Cirion and Eorl....' alongside TTT 'The Riders of Rohan', 'King of the Golden Hall' and 'Helms Deep' and RotK 'The Muster of Rohan', 'The Ride of the Rohirrim' and 'The Battle of Pelennor Fields' should pretty much cover it :D

Dr Death

Crazy Harborc
04-02-2009, 20:31
Tolkien.....one of the first writers to......no he was not. He WAS one of the first to write a trilogy and have millions read the darn books....in his lifetime. He did a very good job of 'borrowing" ideas from legends and folklore from around the world.

Tolkien did for fantasy books what GW did for fantasy wargaming minies in 25-28mm.;)

Bento
05-02-2009, 03:54
This is a very unprofessional exploration- i should add book references and quotes but frankly i cant be arsed to spend the time doing it. You'll just have to take my word for it, but Unfinished tales 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen' and 'Cirion and Eorl....' alongside TTT 'The Riders of Rohan', 'King of the Golden Hall' and 'Helms Deep' and RotK 'The Muster of Rohan', 'The Ride of the Rohirrim' and 'The Battle of Pelennor Fields' should pretty much cover it :D
Dr Death

I WILL take your word for it. :D Over-analysing myth seems to miss the point entirely, we're not here to count rivets on a Rohirrim's helmet, after all. So if it's suggested that Rohan has a standing force of Cavalry (and since they're not ALWAYS fighthing things, they no doubt do things like scout outlying villages and report), then outriders do seem more out place. I'd just consider them veteran riders and be done with it, I suppose.

Bento
05-02-2009, 03:56
Tolkien.....one of the first writers to......no he was not. He WAS one of the first to write a trilogy and have millions read the darn books....in his lifetime. He did a very good job of 'borrowing" ideas from legends and folklore from around the world.

Tolkien did for fantasy books what GW did for fantasy wargaming minies in 25-28mm.;)

Having no academic knowledge of the fantasy tradition, could you suggest more books that did similar things?

I mean, I know he took various folk tales and myths and all that, and came up with a grand legendarium, but I don't know of anyone else who did anything quite like that (and I freely admit my knowledge is plenty lacking here.)

Crazy Harborc
06-02-2009, 01:43
The guy (last name was Howard) who wrote the original Conan series of paperbacks.

Dennis L. McKiernan has several fantasy books out there. I suggest just google.....oh "Once Upon A Winters Night". THAT should enable you to find more books like it.....Fantasy Fiction.

Tolkien DID get his books into the hands of newbie readers. Maybe , just maybe, those three movies helped a little.:)

lotrchampion
06-02-2009, 02:27
Conan the Barbarian, created by Robert Howard in 1932. The Hobbit, written in the early 1930s, published 1937. I believe the original Fall of Gondolin was originally started in 1917 in an army barracks.

Yes, Tolkien was one of the first writers to create fantasy stories and a legendarium in the form we think of them today. He borrowed heavily from Norse and Angol-Saxon mythology, as well as various other sources. He revived the concept of Elves as they are in his works, and in many other Fantasy universes, and also was probably the first writer to create such a full and well documented world.

I think its a little difficult to associate Tolkien's works with what we associate as the traditional Fantasy genre, purely because most Fantasy books tend to explain barely what the reader reads to know about the worlds they are set in. Tolkien's works encompass an amazing amount of thought and work into creating Arda and Middle-earth, from the Ainulindalė and the Years of the Lamps through to the Trees, the War of the Jewels-the whole heroic First Age of the world. Then through the Second Age, the rise and fall of Numenor, the War of the Last Alliance, the fall of Sauron, and of course the Third Age, with the rise and fall of the kingdoms in exile, the War of Dwarves and Orcs, the northern wars with Angmar, the decline of Gondor, and of course the tales in The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. No other fantasy series accomplishes anywhere near this. You could argue that the Warhammer and 40k settings come close, but that is a culmination of 30 years of hundreds of peoples collaborative efforts, and yet still far less people are as enchanted and enamoured by the background of said universes as are by the Lord of the Rings.

Crazy Harborc, I think its quite ignorant to think that it was just the movies that made LotR popular. Even before the films, the trilogy and associated works was recognised as some of the greatest pieces of literature of the 20th Century. And "Newbie" readers? That seems quite demeaning, and rather insulting. I know of many readers of other Fantasy novels who find Tolkien incredibly hard to read because its not all just 'slash and bash' action, and they dislike it because of that. I am yet to find a series of Fantasy novels that has quite the depth of background or use of language as Tolkien has in his works. Such books often, surprise surprise, borrow fom existing works, such as...folklore and legend...and some even borrow from Tolkien. Hardly surprising when it seems human nature for stories and events to become recursive in the telling. I believe there is a theory (can't remember the proposer) that there are in fact only 6 stories in the world. This may seem rubbish, but the gist of it is that any story will boil down to one of these 6 extremely basic plotlines. Certainly interesting when you consider the overlaps between Tolkien, Modern Fantasy and older mythologies and folklore.

Anyway, thats getting off topic. So really, the question is not "Is LotR being over fantasised?"-its where a lot of modern Fantasy stories have roots, while being a slight departure from the typical Fantasy genre as we think of it in itself. Instead, the focus of this question is really "Is GW bringing LotR closer into line with the typical generic Fantasy world to make it seem more synonymous with Warhammer Fantasy?"

I think that GW are bringing 'portable' elements of the generic Fantasy style into LotR. Is this bad? Does this conflict with 'canon'? In many cases, no, it isn't bad, and it fits well with Tolkien's World-for example, the aforementioned Elven Siege Weapons. Since Elves, especially the Noldor, are amongst the greatest craftsmen in Arda, it seems logical that during the various instances of siege warfare that they conducted, both specific large battles mentioned in the books, and logically extended ones which we can infer would have occured, such as during the assault on Mordor by the Last Alliance, would have given them opportunity to develop and use such technologies. So to me, it seems to fit with canon, be a fair inclusion in the game, but nevertheless, if people don't like it, they can choose to leave it out of their games, and therefore their idea of Tolkien's World.

Anyway, its 2.30am, I've spent half an hour writing this and I need more coffee. :P

Midloo
06-02-2009, 02:54
I've to say that what originally attracted me to GW's LotR lines was the faithfulness of the sculpts to the WETA designs. They are spot on IMO. The likenesses to specific film characters was also impressive. It was a pleasure to be able to pick out Merry as opposed to Pippin, Lurtz over a regular Uruk, etc.

As the game developed, I do feel that they took a bit of a wrong turn with additions like Dol Amroth - they just look too Brettonia/Empire to me.

I'm excited about WotR and will be first in line at my local store to pick up a copy (mostly because I'm one of the few that enjoys LotR around the home base and will probably have to order it in), but I'm always tenuous about the game turning into Fantasy. Ah well... there's plenty of skirmish material that's been released over the last 8 years to last.

At the root of the question - I guess I'm personally more concerned with the game going WHFantasy rather than concerned with it embracing the (little 'f')fantasy cliches that have cropped up in the 70 year wake of Tolkien's writings...

Bento
06-02-2009, 14:00
The guy (last name was Howard) who wrote the original Conan series of paperbacks.

Dennis L. McKiernan has several fantasy books out there. I suggest just google.....oh "Once Upon A Winters Night". THAT should enable you to find more books like it.....Fantasy Fiction.

Tolkien DID get his books into the hands of newbie readers. Maybe , just maybe, those three movies helped a little.:)

Robert E. Howard ought to be better known than he is, but Conan kicked off the Swords & Sorcery subgenre, not the High Fantasy fantasy subgenre.

What was the reference to Dennis L. Mckiernan supposed to show? Nobody's arguing that other good writers haven't created legendariums after Tolkien.

He's still the first, to my knowledge. And nobody is arguing that he created his stories cut from whole cloth. Indeed, if he had done so, I'd wager it would be nowhere near as compelling.

Crazy Harborc
07-02-2009, 01:47
In the 70s Tolkien's books were VERY popular. There were many of us gamers who wanted a LoTRs movie. All we got was a movie length cartoon.

Call the Conan series of books Sword and Sorcery it IS still fantasy. Minifigs thought it was was good enough to bring out their Hyborean Age range of minies for wargaming with.

I am in many ways ignorant (lacking in knowledge)...BUT the fact remains that it was the New Line Cinema movies that did the advertising for GW's range of minies and games that were released with the release of the first LoTRs movie. The suits at GW have repeatedly stated as much over the past years during and since the last of the Trilogy movies were released and since started to fad from memory.;)

Yes, the books were and likely still are popular, very popular in fact. That said it was the (3) movie(s) released by New Line Cinema that got the attention of most of the soon to become LoTRs gamers....at least in this area of the country. It was even repeorted on by the news media....at least again, in this area.

Pitalla Crimson
07-02-2009, 16:43
I agree about some of the overfantasizing i suppose. I dont even like a lot of the new stuff.


Yeah, I also think that elven catapults its very stupid. and to be honest I dont like alot of the new stuff they have been making.

I mean I have been waiting for actual easterilng chariots for ages by now but they actually gave them to khand instead:wtf:

To be honest I feel like mathew ward its just doing the stuff he likes and wants.

Simon Sez
07-02-2009, 18:08
Khand needed to be given something; all they had going for them was a name and a loose correlation to the Varangian guard (who also favoured two-handed axes) besides which Khand and Rhun are easily meldable as a joint force.

What is Sword & Sorcery in comparison to Tolkein? I know (vaguely) of the "Conan the Barbarian" series, which to me encompassed short skirts, burly blokes with big axes and implausibly big and ugly monsters that would have the Balrog going "Oh come now that's going a bit far!"

jaws900
07-02-2009, 18:24
Does anyone else agree that GW is overfantasizing the LoTR range? I don't mean the WoTR, just the minis coming out

For example, the Black numenoreans - vampire counts, anyone?
The rumoured 'Stormcaster' - Wood Elf wizard?

Admitedly, they have run out of major movie stuff to plug, but this seems to me to be taking away what attracted my to LoTR in the first place - it's not 'High Fantasy', with too many vampires etc..., but has some aspects of it.

Not really as the Black Numentorians are listed in the books as there are looking in the books for there men now. There are also 8 "War Wraith's" which are named versions of the Nazgul giving you the option of fielding them instead of the nazguls giving you more variaty.