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Malorian
02-02-2009, 15:13
Tonight me and my buddy are going to have a battle and there's a good deal of pride on the line.

For his part, he has always had trouble winning with his empire, and as many people kept blaming it on his list, he's spent quite a bit of time improving his list and coming up with a solid strategy to use with it. I know he REALLY wants to win this one.

This is his list:

Arch Lector- Van Horstmann's, Armour of Meteoric Iron, GW-186
Gen. of the Empire-Dawn armour, Crimson Amulet, Barded horse, lance, GW-175
Captain- BSB, Griffon banner, barded horse, FPA-152
Captain- Full plate, Shield, GW, Holy Relic- 109
Wizard- lvl1, Rod of power- 95

26 swordsmen FC with detachment of 9 Hal and 5 Cross- 266
26 swordsmen FC with detachment of 9 Hal and 5 Cross- 266
5 knight with musician-123
5 knight with musician-123
10 huntsmen-100
14 Flagellants with pro- 150
10 Crossbowmen- 80

3 cannons- 300
20 greatswords Fc, Detachment of 9 hal and 10 handgunners, banner of valour- 300
5 pistoliers with musician, marksmen with repeater- 114

Rocket battery -115
Rocket battery -115
14 Flagellants with pro- 150

Total: 2999

*Note that there is no stank as the last 6 times he's used it against me it has been completely useless.*

Edit: In the end he took my advise and made the handgunners a detachment for the greatswords.


With my orc log settled I looked forward to using a different army but then remembered that this game had been setup before and we had planned it to be against my orcs. So I guess I'll get another battle with them after all :D

My list:

Savage orc warboss w/ great axe, iron gnashas *general*
Black orc warboss w/ wyvern, heavy armor, shield, screaming sword, best boss 'at, battle brew
Black orc bigboss BSB w/ spirit totem, heavy armor, boar
Goblin big boss w/ wolf, one hit wunda, light armor, shield
Night goblin shaman w/ staff of sneaky stealing
Goblin Shaman w/ wolf chariot, 2 scrolls

25 savage orcs w/ spears and full command
25 boyz w/ shield, banner, musician
25 boyz w/ shield, banner, musician
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
6 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician, banner
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 spider riders w/ musician
27 night goblins w/ 2 fanatics, nets, banner

Orc chariot
Orc chariot
2 spear chukkas
2 spear chukkas
6 Squig hoppers

Doom diver
Troll
Troll

Total: 2999


Pre-game thoughts: With three cannons I'll have to be careful with my wyvern, and those rocket batteries could quickly tear apart my ranks if they hit. I really like his new list and I think that it will offer him a lot more tactical options. I'm guessing that general of the empire is going to be a character killer so I'll have to watch out for him. Otherwise the plan is to march on him, knock out those warmachines as soon as possible, and then engage his blocks in the best way possible. That last part will be tough however as the detachments and combat characters are going to make winning combats tough unless there are set up just right. It is going to be nice to have a game with pretty much no magic though.

As before I've set up a poll so give it a guess and I'll post the report tomorrow.

Wish me luck ;)

Neknoh
02-02-2009, 15:21
I would say the orcs

A quick look at his list reveals a few things.

First of all, there is no war Altar, perhaps not needed, but it could proove useful with mass-de-ranking of the Orcs and Goblins.
Second of all, there is no Warrior Priest, one would be immensely useful in that it'd free up a Rare slot for a third Hellstrom Rocket Battery allong with providing the ever useful Hatred to a unit of Knights (who really ought to be Inner Circle when facing Orcs and Gobblins).

With only two Hellstroms, I fear he may have a difficulty in thinning your lines adequatly before you go Waaagh! You will win, and it will be bloody.

Briohmar
02-02-2009, 16:59
I'm going with orcs as well. He just doesn't have enough shooting to thin out your ranks effectively before you get to him. If it comes down to CC, I feel the orcs have the upper hand, provide you watch your flanks to make sure those dets and knights don't get up in them.

dragonlancr
02-02-2009, 17:20
The two chariots *should* be gone turn 1, so it would be advantageous for Mal to take turn 1 to get a jumpstart on moving across the field.

At 3000 points, its just a LOT of orcs. The empire army list could have been better tailored to an orc army if he really wants to beat you as bad as you say. Even his magic is relatively weak.

I think you will have a massive victory against him pending you don't have "orcy" luck. (Panic and Animosity)

SevenSins
02-02-2009, 20:50
I voted for the empire, as you well know Malorian orcs and goblins cannot be competetive and should you win it is down to luck and/or the opposing player being drunk :p

Malorian
03-02-2009, 15:06
So at the time I wrote this the bets were: Empire win-4, orc win-15, tie-0, would depend on rolls-6.

He let me setup the board so I tried to make it as fair as possible. He had a long hill in the left side of his deployment zone and I had a hill in the right side of my deployment zone. One forest on the left flank and two on the right.

He deployed from left to right: pistoliers, swordsmen w/ bsb and captain, knights, flagellants, greatswords w/ archlector, flagellants, knights, swordsmen w/ wizard and general of the empire, cannon. Then on the lower tier of the hill were the crossbowmen and handgunners, and on the upper tier were the other two cannons and two rocket batteries.

I deployed from left to right: night goblins, wolf chariot, wyvern (so forest blocked LOS to the two cannons on the hill), hoppers w/ spear chukka behind, orcs w/ shaman, chariot w/ troll in front, orcs w/ goblin BB, savage orcs w/ general and BSB, orcs, chariot w/ troll in front, orcs in front of the hill and the other three spear chukkas and the doom diver on the hill, then on the right flank were all three fast cav units.

Huntsmen scouted into forest on left flank. Wyvern gets hatred.

He won first turn.


Pre-game thoughts: So much for taking out those warmachines with fast cav... that hill was VERY well defended and I would basically have to wipe out the army before I got to them. The plan was to take out the far right cannon with the fast cav and block the swordsmen unit, have the main line move up on his center that I would weaken with warmachines, and then block the left swordsmen with the night goblins while the wyvern tries to set up a flank charge.


Turn 1 Empire:

His huntsmen run out of the forest which releases my fanatics and I send them safely off the board. The flagellants both move up as do the right knights. Everything else holds back. Magic is shut down. Warmachines don't misfire but they all scatter other than a cannon that hits a troll and the blow is regenerated. Crossbowmen kill a couple orcs.

Turn 1 Orcs:

Animosity kicks me in the butt and the night goblins, hoppers, savage orcs, and outer right block all squabble (bsb kills 2 to keep savage orcs in line). Left troll fails stupidity while the right one passes. Without the hoppers to take out the huntsmen I charge them with the outer left orcs and the huntsmen flee and get away. The wyvern flies to the elft of the woods (no cannons can see him) hoping to use the waaagh/charge trick next turn. The line moves up and on the right flank the banner wolves zip up the right edge while the spiders move through the forest and the other wolves move up so that if the knights charge them they would show my orcs their flank. In the magic phase I actually get gaze of gork on the pistoliers and kill one (magic on both sides is useless from this point on so I'll stop mentioning it). Doom diver scatters and all spear chukkas miss.

Turn 2 Empire:

Knights charge the spiders who flee and get away. Huntsmen fail to rally and move towards the left board edge. His pistoliers move in front of the wyvern and the left knights move up a bit. This time a cannon destroys the left chariot and the rocket batteries kill two savage orcs and 6 orcs from the inner left unit. Other shooting kills a couple more orcs. Pistoliers do a wound to the wyvern.

Turn 2 Orcs:

I declare my Waaagh! which sends the wyvern into the pistoliers (since he can't stand and shoot he holds), swings the outer left block into the trees, moves up the inner left block and the savage orcs and kills 6 of the inner right block as they squabble. Both stupidities are passed. Wolf chariot charges the fleeing huntsmen and catches them as it runs off the board. Hoppers bounce up to the forest. The goblin BB charges the hal detatchment of the greatswords, the right troll and the chariot try to charge the rigth flagellants but the chariot is out of range so the troll goes alone. The outer right block charges the right knights and they flee and get away. The wolves charge the cannon, and the spiders rally. Then the banner wolves swing around the forest to face his flank, the left troll moves up to block the knights, and the inner left block moves a tad back as I'm not ready to engage the other flagellants yet, and the savage orcs move a bit more up. The doom diver kills 5 handgunners and a spear chukka kills 1 more (the one of the left flank had most of it's targets blocked by the orcs)(panic is passed), the other three chukkas kill 4 great swordsmen. In the combat phase the wyvern eats up the pistolier champ and the unit flees and gets away, running through the left swordsmen and cannon before going off the board but panic is passed and the wyvern stops just in front of the swordsmen. The troll kills two flagellants and takes a wound back and holds. The goblin BB activates the one hit wunda and kills 2 hals but they hold. The wolves break the cannon crew and run off the board.

Turn 3 Empire:

Terror tests are all passed. Left swordsmen and hals try to charge the wyvern, but the swordsmen fail their fear test so the hals run in alone hitting the wyverns flank. The knights charge the left troll but I flee and get away (this troll never rallies and eventually goes off the board on turn 5). The knights fail to rally and flee just in front of the banner wolves. The right hal detachment turns to phase the wolves. In a deadly blow a rocket battery hits the savage orcs dead on and kills 14 of them (!!!). A cannon hits the chariot but rolls a 1 to wound. Other shooting kills a couple more savage orcs leaving me with 5 left. In combat the hals do a wound to the wyvern and then are run down as I hit the left flagellant's flank. The other flagellants fail to wound the troll and he kills one of them. Goblin BB kills 1 and it's a draw.

Turn 3 Orcs:

Animosity makes the hoppers, outer right block, and outer left block move up and the night goblins squabble. The chariot charges the right flagellants but the outer right block are just out and fail their charge. The banner wolves charge the right knights, catch them, and hit the hal detachment. The wolve chariot comes on the board and faces the hill. The hoppers bounce up and hit the left knights. With the flagellants tied up my line moves up and the general and BSB join the inner left block. The wolves and spiders move in on the swordmen. The doom diver misfires and can't shoot but the spear chukkas kill 6 swordsmen and 1 handgunner. In the combat phase the wyvern kills about half of the flagellants. The chariot kills 4, but then the prophet hits and wounds with everything and kills the troll. Goblin BB kills two hals and they hold. Wolves break the hal detachment and overrun into the swordmen flank. The hopper force the knights to make 5 3+ saves but they make them all and almost wipe out the unit leaving the last one to run away while the knights hold.

Turn 4 Empire:

Knights charge the inner left blocks flank (crap...). Warmachines mainly scatter although they do kill a couple of orcs from the outer units. A cannon barely misses the wolve chariot, but then it's destroyed by crossbowmen leaving the shaman to stand alone. In combat the knights kill two orcs and it's a draw *sigh of relief*. The wyvern goes on a killing spree but as he takes away the dead I realize that there is 1 flagellant left! (Arrrgghh!) Chariot kills a couple of flagellants. Goblin kills one hal for a draw. The wolves kill 2 swordmen and lose one of their own. He loses by one but holds.

Turn 4 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing. The outer left block charges the knights rear and the general moves over to be in base to base. The savage orcs charge the right flagellants, and the spiders charge the swordsmen front while the other wolve join in on the flank. The shaman runs back into the night goblin unit and the inner right block moves up. Doom diver hits the crossbowmen and kills 3 which panics them and they run back a bit. Spear chukkas kill another handgunner (man, that left one is a sniper) and a couple of great swordsmen. In combat the wyvern kills the last flagellant and stands around in front of his warmachines. The knights are beaten and destroyed. A few more flagellants are killed. The spiders do a wound to the mage and I kill a couple of swordsmen. I then lose a spider and two wolves for a draw.

Turn 5 Empire:

The great swordsmen charge the savage orcs and the crossbowmen rally. The left swordsmen move towards my night goblins. In the shooting phase all four of his warmachines misfire (!!!) and most can't shoot next turn either. The two handgunners do a wound to the wyvern. In combat he kills two savage orcs but I wipe out the flagellants and tie combat. The goblin BB wipes out the hals. The spiders kill the mage and I kill a couple swordsmen and lose a couple of wolves. I win combat by 1 but he holds.

Turn 5 Orcs:

Animosity makes the night goblins squabble. The wyvern hits the greatswords flank while the inner left block hits their front. The chariot tries to charge the crossbowmen detachment but is just out of range and fails the charge with no wounds lost to stand and shoot. The goblin BB charges a cannon at an angle. The outer left block reforms to face the swordsmen flank. The doom diver wipes out the handgunners and the spear chukkas all miss. In combat the golbin BB break the cannon and runs into a rocket battery. The savage orc champ makes a challenge which the unit champ takes and I cut him down while the rest of the savage unit is wiped out by the arch lector. The wyvern and orcs leave only the greatsword banenr left and he breaks and I run him down (wyvern runs off the table). In the swordmen combat I kill a few more and he kills a few more and now my wolves aren't big enough to take away the ranks so two spiders and two banner wolves break, but a lone wolves holds to tie up the unit.

Turn 6 Empire:

The left swordmen charge the night goblins. Shooting fails to wound the chariot. The swordsmen kill 4 nightgolbins and I break and run away. The general of the empire kills the 1 wolf rider. The goblin BB kills 1 crew and takes a wound back for a tie.

Turn 6 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing. Savage orc champ and BSB charge a cannon and the chariot charges the crossbowmen detachment. Banner wolves rally, but the spiders and night goblins don't. The doom diver explodes. In combat both warmachines are wiped out as are the crossbowmen.

Victory to the Orcs!


Post-game thoughts: Well in the ends things works out but it was kinda scary for a while there. He had some bad luck with his warmachines but when they hit they hurt a lot, and being on the hill it wasn't unit the very end that I was able to take them out. The hoppers bouncing off the knights and allowing them to hit my general's flank was the last straw for them. They have failed me each time I used them and those 90 points could be better spent on something else. They are officially out of my list and all I have to do now is decide what to get instead (stone thrower? chariot? two more spearchukkas? :evilgrin: )

Obviously he was disappointed with how his army preformed but I think it's a much better list. We talked about how his general of the empire could be better equiped to be a character killer (turns out he had just wanted to use him for the leadership and killing power), but otherwise his list is solid.

Anyway, thanks for reading :)

SevenSins
03-02-2009, 16:40
nice rep as usual, and better luck next time to the humans

Malorian
03-02-2009, 22:03
I'm always surprised how many people vote AFTER the battle report is up :)

happy_doctor
04-02-2009, 06:28
I was ready to vote for the Empire, but then decided to scroll down in case you had already posted the report... : )

I liked the empire list a lot and honestly I think it can beat your orcs with some consistent rolling and a well executed battleplan.

I found this battle a lot more close-fought than the previous against the empire, and it seems that the list performed solidly. However, let's not forget that you are an experienced general and knew how to counter it,charging the detachments, tying the flagellants and protecting your wyvern as you did.

Still, I cannot help but wonder what would have happened if the swordsmen hadn't failed their fear test against the wyvern!

Notable moments:
-The knights hitting the orc's flanks, then getting rubber-lance syndrome and drawing the combat!
-The empire shooting being a mixed bag, in my opinion: Most of the savage boys were killed by the rockets, but I believe that the cannons really underperformed...
-The goblin bigboss munching through 2 empire warmachines and a combat detachment single-handedly! He is more than meets the eye, apparently!
-Your wyvern wreaked havoc in the empire lines, after escaping an early charge from the static CR 9 swordsmen.

All in all, a great battle report, Mal! Congratulations for the win, although I sympathise with the empire player on this one.

Djekar
04-02-2009, 06:32
Indeed, nice rep, thanks for putting in the time again! I was actually kind of hoping the Empire would win (or at the very least - a draw) since you trounced him so much in the Orc Log, but it was not meant to be. Not that I don't like an orcy victory as much as the next guy, but I always hate to see a man's pride kicked around. But it does seem like the orcy thing to do... were one to take one's orcish lessons from Grimgor, so I can't complain too much.

I'm counting down until there's an "Orcs are the sux!" or a "That Empire player is ballzor!" post. I'm betting it's within the next 3 posts.

Congrats again Mal!

The Red Scourge
04-02-2009, 06:55
Darn broken orksies! ;)

Volker the Mad Fiddler
04-02-2009, 07:00
SNIP
Turn 6 Empire:
SNIP
The goblin BB kills 1 crew and takes a wound back for a tie.
SNIP

Another good report even if the wrong side won :). I couldn't find another wound in this goblin BB vs. crew fight though and just wanted to make sure that crews do start at US 3 [I am sure they do, but I am noticing a lot of rules which I am sure of, have been changed in 7th edition]. Oh, and apparently 'Orcs are the sux' whatever that means in, well, whatever language it is in.

Golden Lion
04-02-2009, 13:15
Thanks for the report Malorian! It was fun to read. These are the battles Warhammer is all about in my opinion!! Plenty of blocks on either side, without silly amounts of magic or avoiding.

Congratulations on the victory, although I am a sucker for Empire, so was really rooting for them :) . It looks like you did a good job tying up and removing his flankers and then overloading his blocks. Tough for him when his griffon swords refused to charge the Wyvern! Although I am not saying that that won you the battle.

Congrats and I hope you will keep posting reports.

Neknoh
04-02-2009, 13:15
As expected.

Had he had one more Hellstrom (using a warrior priest to move flaggies to core) and then placing the warrior priest he bought for the flagellants in the knight unit, I think you'd've been looking at a much tougher battle, there simply is no way three pieplates a turn can miss a proppa orc horde.

Character desicions by him was a bit iffy, as predicted and proved, ah well, he learnt something, and with you for army support and advice, I am quite sure he'll give you a good run for your money in a short while

Golden Lion
04-02-2009, 13:27
@neknoh: The empire player did buy a priest, he had the arch lector. This means that he had one unit of flaggies as core, and one as rare. I think it is both a good and fluffy list, but as you say, the characters might have been better chosen. For example, pegasus captain(s) or more wizards.

Malorian
04-02-2009, 13:33
One of the units of flagellants were core because of the archlector.

The griffin unit failing their fear helped but being that they had the griffin banner they wouldn't had been able to pursue anyway. I would say he was luck that it wasn't the other way around and he had failed his terror test ;)

Arguleon-veq
04-02-2009, 14:44
Great report as always.

I quite liked his characters. Of course they aren't optimal but characters are one thing in Fantasy you can really customise and its just boring to go for the cookie cutter options all the time, I am sure you both had a more enjoyable game because of the character options he took. The other day I used a BSB with Dragon Bow just to represent a model I had and he was just much more fun to use like that. Same with a Lvl2 Wizard with Doomfire and a Powerstone rather than my usual Lvl1 with 2 Scrolls. They both ended up doing quite decent anyway.

His list, besides the fun characters now seems much more effective.

All he could really do IMO is swap those Crossbows for Handguns, make the Flaggellants 1 20 strong unit and throw in a Hellblaster or another Hellstrom.

Whirligig beetle
04-02-2009, 15:10
Nice report, well laid out and. I also like the way you posted the lists before the battle so that we could vote on the predicted outcome.