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Rubicon
02-02-2009, 20:31
I've just finished reading one of the threads on the new Lizardmen book, and I was wondering if the new army books were translated into 'real' terms, how the warhammer world would look right now?

Empire armies at the moment seem to contain lots of flagellants and 'new' technologies such as cannon, stanks and handguns, for this reason I wouldn't say that the Empire would be particularly on the back foot against the newer builds, so the empire as a nation would be pretty secure.

In fact, thinking about it in broadest terms, the only lists that are 'weak' at the moment are O&G, Ogres, TK and BoC. All are races that operate on the periphery of the warhammer world.

As I see it, Dark Elf raids are up, daemonic incursions from the north are becoming more frequent and the 'sylvanian problem has reared it's ugly head again...and the empire reacts with lots of flagellants (which fits into the background) and a greater reliance on new technology.

Anyone else have any ideas how the new army lists would affect the storyline of the warhammer world?

Condottiere
02-02-2009, 20:49
Since the chances are that Skaven are next, we'll be "given" a wider perspective of their potential power, probably a boost to their magic phase as well. I'm not sure what can be done with Ogres, and BoC just had a major portion of their list annexed.

TK should do well out of the power creep.

w3rm
02-02-2009, 21:53
TK are not underpowered.... In the hands of the right general they are one of the better armies, IMHO.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
02-02-2009, 21:59
TK are not underpowered.... In the hands of the right general they are one of the better armies, IMHO.

I watched a 2,000 point game with TK vs VC the other week and the TK got taken apart very quickly and couldnt do a thing, the TKs player is very good as well, he was moaning afterwards about how weak they were compared to the new books

dooombot
02-02-2009, 23:30
I watched a 2,000 point game with TK vs VC the other week and the TK got taken apart very quickly and couldnt do a thing, the TKs player is very good as well, he was moaning afterwards about how weak they were compared to the new books

this happens to me frequently as well, as one of my buddies has VC. My mana of late has been "new book this year, new book this year, new book this year..."

as for OP- i dont think the power level of the armies translates at all to background. and i wouldn't classify Orcs as operating on the fringe...

CaliforniaGamer
02-02-2009, 23:41
TK are not underpowered.... In the hands of the right general they are one of the better armies, IMHO.

data says otherwise. TKs are doing poorly save for 1 win at a major event in all 2008.

I always take online and available data over hunches.

Stuffburger
03-02-2009, 04:16
data says otherwise. TKs are doing poorly save for 1 win at a major event in all 2008.

I always take online and available data over hunches.

I'd be interested to see that data, what's the source?

Devil Tree
03-02-2009, 07:07
I donít think that you can compare what you see on the tabletop, to what the armies in question would be able to field if they had to deal with a real world framework.

Things like Steam Tanks, Pope-mobiles, Dragons and other Ancient Creatures would be so rare that they would seldom if ever be seen on the battlefield. Even the more common things like knights and artillery would be too expensive to field in large numbers, even the richest army would only be able to field a few on them in relation to the rest of the army.

There are other issues too. Your Empire list for example is completely contradictory.

In order to field the best equipment, the province in question would need to be fairly prosperous. All that stuff has to be built or bought by someone, either way itís not cheap. Being prosperous and having mobs of broken men whoís only aspiration is to martyr themselves in the most painful and graphic manner possible is a bit counter-intuitive, donít you think?:eyebrows:

Thereís also the issue of special characters popping up whenever thereís a minor skirmish. Guys like Thorgrim canít be running around everywhere, his thronebearers would drop dead in less than a week.

Condottiere
03-02-2009, 08:09
There are only 8 operational Steam Tanks, and the annual training and upkeep costs would keep elite unit numbers down, in a normal human empire operating under normal economic conditions.

City fathers are unlikely to be enthusiastic having flagellants camped near or in their towns, since they are unlikely to be able to bring a boost to their tourist trade by buying souvenirs or staying at bed and breakfasts.

Nicha11
03-02-2009, 08:34
So you think TK are underpowerd:evilgrin:

read this report! http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=53715

Needless to say i was incredibely impressed by the results!!!

Kerill
03-02-2009, 10:53
Daemons have taken over the old world with the exception of Sylvania.
Naggaroth is still held by the dark elves and lustria by the lizards
High elves have lost half of Ulthuan to the new dark elves and teclis died after encountering the ring of hotek
Naggaroth is no longer ruled by malekith but by a mysterious figure known as "the invulnerable lord of the pendant"
Wood elves are all dead, Loren is a wasteland burned by flamer fire
Skaven are hiding underground and waiting to see what the future (armybook) will bring.
TK are thankful daemons don't have ships yet.
The dwarves are all destroyed except any lost holds in the southlands and wherever Thorek is hanging about.

PopeAlexanderVI
03-02-2009, 11:03
So you think TK are underpowerd:evilgrin:

read this report! http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=53715

Needless to say i was incredibely impressed by the results!!!

These battle reports are in no way indicative of the relative strength of either his list or the army book. He's a better player than his opponents, but more than that he has some outrageous luck.

First game he beats a tough HE list, he outplayed his opponent and got a block into a dragon's flank.

Second game (WoC) is a total fluke:

"the second Heavy Horsemen went absolutely rampant, killing two Knights on the charge and running the survivors down, before charging and destroying a second unit in turn 5"

"before charging and destroying a second unit in turn 5"

Those Heavy Cav are hitting on a 4+, wounding on a 4+, and then having to get through a 2+ AS. Even if you can win combat they have a decent shot to pass their break test. To kill 2 on the charge is an outlier.

Next he beats Ogres and BoC. Not exactly lists anyone is complaining about.

After that a HE list that's not very strong (Sea guard blocks?). And here he has some atypical luck as well "With only two chariots in contact, I knew I would need some seriously fluky rolls to actually break them. It seems lady luck had a crush on me, however." His opponent also had both his mages miscast.

Next is a loss against a more reasonable HE list.

Speaking of HE, the author (correctly) points out that non-Star Dragon HE are one of the easiest armies for TK to deal with.

Great report, but anyone who tries to use it to draw conclusions about the strength of TK is being ridiculous.

Neckutter
03-02-2009, 11:14
data says otherwise. TKs are doing poorly save for 1 win at a major event in all 2008.

I always take online and available data over hunches.

i just started playing my TK again, and dusted them off. since about a month ago they are 15-3, and one of those losses was to a person in a tournament i won(he played Stank and SC on Waraltar), and one was against VC(better magic than my build) and the other was against nurgle daemons with a bloodthirster.

my Tks do just fine, against things that live honestly. :)
undead/daemon armies give me a huge amount of problems.

as far as power creep, i would like to see skaven pushed back in favor of OK and Boc, since those armies need quite a bit of help. especially BoC. at any rate, im still happy that TKs will be out this year. i hope i wont have to buy too many additions to my army, since i already have 3k worth of models painted.(plus i love my DE currently)

EDIT: i refuse to believe that TK heavy horsemen would do ANYTHING to chaos knights. they hit on 5s, and wound on 4s and the chaos knights save on 2s. its damn near impossible.

Buckero0
03-02-2009, 15:52
I would love to see skaven get the lizardman treatment (but they probably won't) Cut back their magic and magic items, make everything worse but still cost the same. Eliminate ridiculous shooting, etc. Then maybe that army would be fun to play against.

PeG
03-02-2009, 16:41
Buckero0 what skaven armies are you playing against. A mixed skaven army today with some magic and some shooting gets ripped apart by the majority of new armies which is also obvious from how skaven are doing in tournaments that are completely dominated by daemons, dark elves, VC. In addition to those armies you sometimes see empire, WE, and maybe soon some WoC or lizards doing fine but when was the last time you saw skaven in a high up result? I would like to see skaven getting better combat options (either by improved units or army wide rules for static CR) so that they can go into combat and do reasonably well without going crazy on magic/shooting.

Regarding magic/shooting rattlings will get nerfed (roll to hit) and warplightning will probably also take a hit.

Arguleon-veq
03-02-2009, 17:26
Ok, trying to get back on topic, I see it like this;

In a wave of power from the North, the forces of Chaos are on the rise once more. A wave of energy so powerful that it is capable of sustaining Daemonic forces deep into the Old World. Where as in recent history it has been hordes of mortals leading the assault for the forces of Chaos now Daemons lie at the forefront, mortals still a threat but left to pick at the scraps of their daemonic overlords, the true chosen of their gods.

Kislev has been swept aside in a tide of blood and Daemonic Ichor [as the Kislev models arent available anymore].

The Empire although hard pressed has been spared thanks in part to its new technologies and a wave of religious devotion. To lead these masses of Zeolots vast new War Alters have been created and the college of engineers works tirelessly on a newer and more powerful steam tank.

Bretonnia too still endures, riches from new trade routes opened with the High Elves have seen a population boom in the Bretonian nobility, a wave of young pious knights more than ready to defend their realms. Which in turn has helped support the Asrai, although weakened by Daemonic incursions in the heart of their ancient forest thanks to magical waystones, the Wood Elves still endure Orion and his Wild Riders taking the fight to the enemy.

The added militarisation of the human old world nations thanks to external threats has seen Beastmen and Orcs almost eradicated from their lands, the Orcs, for now at least have to be content with warring with each other over the Badlands, although the decedant lands of the south are now ripe for the taking, Tilea having grown weak, its power fading into history.

The Beastmen now take refuge in the darkest, deepest woods, biding their time for when they can strike again.

The Ogre migration west has met with fierce resistance, pushed back by the forces of the old world the Ogres are returning east, their population decreased thanks to these failed migrations, ensuring the mountains of mourn can once again accomodate their population. The Ogres once strong ties with the Chaos Dwarfs is now ruined though, rampaging Ogres spoiling for a fight casting down many of their former allies greatest works. The Chaos Dwarfs are now in ruins, a shadow of their former glory, their first step in rebuilding has been supplying Daemon fuelled artillery for the human forces of Chaos, the slaves and gold earned with which to rebuild their empire.

Dark Elf raids have grown bolder striking deep into the heart of Ulthuan and the Old World, ancient Nehekara has been rocked by Dark Elf raids, many ancient artifacts and treasures of great power having been plundered by Druchii raiders, weakening the armies of the Tomb Kings greatly.

The High Elves have taken the initiative and more and more of their people are being armed and trained in the school of Swordmaster, White Lion and Dragon Prince. Caledor emptying its coffers to train and arm a new generation with their costly dragon armour. Even the Dragons are begining to stir, no doubt sensing a threat from the Druchii.

Manfred is once again on the march and has staked his claim, not only as the Emporer of the Empire but also as the King of Brettonia, none have been spared his wrath, least of all the Dwarfs, now penned into their mountain homes by hordes of the restless dead.

An ancient power rises in the west, in the steaming jungles of Lustria, the primal Lizardmen now set on a course of agressivly changing the world to the Old Ones ancient plans.

Neckutter
03-02-2009, 20:29
quite enjoyable to read that post, A-V :)

O&G'sRule
03-02-2009, 22:44
Orcs and goblins a peripheral race? you need to read some history mate and their nature is to be like that so nothing will have changed

Rubicon
03-02-2009, 23:00
@ A-V spot on, that's the sort of thing I was after

@O&G I don't face that many O&G armies, I don't see many at tournaments. As far as my experience of WHF goes, Orcs are on the periphery. The point of this thread was to translate the experience we have of Warhammer into the background. No offence meant.

Condottiere
04-02-2009, 00:59
If that's the case, then Tilea is beset on all sides, Dwarves descend from the mountain strongholds, all varieties of Elves appear to have business within its borders, the Bretonnians are getting restless, not to mention the Undead, and the Empire appears to have territorial claims.

Daemons tend to appear everywhere - where they come from, no-one knows.

Neckutter
04-02-2009, 08:10
yeah, seriously. if you were really wanting to correlate powerful armies compared to the fluff daemons are laying siege every race's capitol and the living races are teetering on the brink of anhiliation.

on the upside, sylvania is looking quite peaceful, as daemon invasions are only every other day. :)

eagletsi1
04-02-2009, 19:06
Quite Honestly: GW introduced Special Characters again and now the Game has become extremely unbalanced for the old books vs the new.

GW love for special characters from 40k has infested Fantasy, so the game is becoming more a Rock, Paper, Scissors game then ever before. This has the positive effect of getting new players, but the negative effect of weaking certain armies severely. This has also allowed players to win with certain build instead of what fantasy used to be which was more of a strategy game.

Dark14
05-02-2009, 07:47
stratagy is still huge in the game. Flank that special character...shoot them... it still works/ For example having played Vilitch him and his unit doesnt stand to multiple wood elf arrows especially while having the problems of Dryads running around the flanks

Neckutter
05-02-2009, 08:10
vilitch is by far horrible when compared to sigvald/archaon/wulfrik. hell i think wulfrik is the best special character that book has. :)

that being said, i have a vilitch conversion, because he is a tzeentchy dude. :)

ChaosVC
05-02-2009, 08:12
I have to admitt, fantasy is becoming more 40k more list and less tactic for WAAC style of playing. But in a normal game between like minded people, it is still ok.

I guess because 40k is the cash cow, Gw probably think that making fantasy more like 40k will make fantasy cash cow no. 2. Which is sad...

eagletsi1
09-02-2009, 20:59
I agree ChaosVC.

GW is a company and they are making strategy to make money.

My biggest problem: if GW wants to introduce special characters more, then they should have an update all previous books. They could update their special characters or add unit champions where needed. This way the old books are not so outclassed by the new books and it allows more models to be bought by the older players.

But again GW doesn't even think of these things. It amazes me they are still able to have a successful company, with so many money making opportunities passed by.

Condottiere
09-02-2009, 21:31
The only way to coordinate updates would be to publish in PDF format, and download complete ebooks; while I can't believe that they make money selling codices, they must or they'd have moved on to this method of distribution.

Gobbo Lord
10-02-2009, 12:00
Flank those special characters..... "What you paid 10 points to completly nullify one of the advantages my horde had against you, you have regen and ward, your hero character is cheaper and better than my lord". I stopped playing because of nonsense like that.

Geordie Vampire
10-02-2009, 18:05
Good to see Mannfred von Carstein keeping himself busy it's about time
All hail Emperor Mannfred! Ruler of all men living or dead mwhahahahaha :evilgrin:

Someday :D

Coram_Boy
10-02-2009, 18:14
Its sad in a way, that GW has been so good to the 'evil' forces of late, with Dark Elves getting a significant powerboost, Daemons spontaneously appearing, and (Hopefully :angel: ) a great new skaven book coming.

bob_the_small
07-04-2009, 22:31
How many special characters do you see anyway? I mean GW puts them in, but they're interesting, but nobody uses them!

Rubicon
07-04-2009, 22:41
At the GT there were a veritable plethora of special characters in the top ten. Kairos, Blue Scribes, Skull Taker, Thorek...If you let people use them, they will.

bob_the_small
07-04-2009, 22:50
True True, i faced a Kairos and Skulltaker list.. but what I meant dave was that in normal games people dont really use them...

Kill-Freedom
08-04-2009, 09:56
Daemons have taken over the old world with the exception of Sylvania.
Naggaroth is still held by the dark elves and lustria by the lizards
High elves have lost half of Ulthuan to the new dark elves and teclis died after encountering the ring of hotek
Naggaroth is no longer ruled by malekith but by a mysterious figure known as "the invulnerable lord of the pendant"
Wood elves are all dead, Loren is a wasteland burned by flamer fire
Skaven are hiding underground and waiting to see what the future (armybook) will bring.
TK are thankful daemons don't have ships yet.
The dwarves are all destroyed except any lost holds in the southlands and wherever Thorek is hanging about.

LMAO thats funny

Talo
08-04-2009, 12:54
LMAO thats funny

Well That was the point of the thread :)


as for my personal experiences, it seems that chaos mortals tried to invade lustria over and over again, only to be beaten severly every time !

(been playing alllot of lizardmen lately :cries:)

Revolution
08-04-2009, 13:36
Ok, trying to get back on topic, I see it like this;

In a wave of power from the North, the forces of Chaos are on the rise once more. A wave of energy so powerful that it is capable of sustaining Daemonic forces deep into the Old World. Where as in recent history it has been hordes of mortals leading the assault for the forces of Chaos now Daemons lie at the forefront, mortals still a threat but left to pick at the scraps of their daemonic overlords, the true chosen of their gods.

Kislev has been swept aside in a tide of blood and Daemonic Ichor [as the Kislev models arent available anymore].

The Empire although hard pressed has been spared thanks in part to its new technologies and a wave of religious devotion. To lead these masses of Zeolots vast new War Alters have been created and the college of engineers works tirelessly on a newer and more powerful steam tank.

Bretonnia too still endures, riches from new trade routes opened with the High Elves have seen a population boom in the Bretonian nobility, a wave of young pious knights more than ready to defend their realms. Which in turn has helped support the Asrai, although weakened by Daemonic incursions in the heart of their ancient forest thanks to magical waystones, the Wood Elves still endure Orion and his Wild Riders taking the fight to the enemy.

The added militarisation of the human old world nations thanks to external threats has seen Beastmen and Orcs almost eradicated from their lands, the Orcs, for now at least have to be content with warring with each other over the Badlands, although the decedant lands of the south are now ripe for the taking, Tilea having grown weak, its power fading into history.

The Beastmen now take refuge in the darkest, deepest woods, biding their time for when they can strike again.

The Ogre migration west has met with fierce resistance, pushed back by the forces of the old world the Ogres are returning east, their population decreased thanks to these failed migrations, ensuring the mountains of mourn can once again accomodate their population. The Ogres once strong ties with the Chaos Dwarfs is now ruined though, rampaging Ogres spoiling for a fight casting down many of their former allies greatest works. The Chaos Dwarfs are now in ruins, a shadow of their former glory, their first step in rebuilding has been supplying Daemon fuelled artillery for the human forces of Chaos, the slaves and gold earned with which to rebuild their empire.

Dark Elf raids have grown bolder striking deep into the heart of Ulthuan and the Old World, ancient Nehekara has been rocked by Dark Elf raids, many ancient artifacts and treasures of great power having been plundered by Druchii raiders, weakening the armies of the Tomb Kings greatly.

The High Elves have taken the initiative and more and more of their people are being armed and trained in the school of Swordmaster, White Lion and Dragon Prince. Caledor emptying its coffers to train and arm a new generation with their costly dragon armour. Even the Dragons are begining to stir, no doubt sensing a threat from the Druchii.

Manfred is once again on the march and has staked his claim, not only as the Emporer of the Empire but also as the King of Brettonia, none have been spared his wrath, least of all the Dwarfs, now penned into their mountain homes by hordes of the restless dead.

An ancient power rises in the west, in the steaming jungles of Lustria, the primal Lizardmen now set on a course of agressivly changing the world to the Old Ones ancient plans.

And in the dank depths beneath the Old World, an evil power is stirring...

Griffin
08-04-2009, 14:08
Lord Kroak and Mazda Mundi Tag team the Old World. All is well, and the old one's plans carry on as normal.

MalusCalibur
08-04-2009, 14:17
Daemons have taken over the old world with the exception of Sylvania.
Naggaroth is still held by the dark elves and lustria by the lizards
High elves have lost half of Ulthuan to the new dark elves and teclis died after encountering the ring of hotek
Naggaroth is no longer ruled by malekith but by a mysterious figure known as "the invulnerable lord of the pendant"
Wood elves are all dead, Loren is a wasteland burned by flamer fire
Skaven are hiding underground and waiting to see what the future (armybook) will bring.
TK are thankful daemons don't have ships yet.
The dwarves are all destroyed except any lost holds in the southlands and wherever Thorek is hanging about.

I think this has got to be the whiniest single post on Warseer...
Let's see, you covered whining about Daemons, whining about Vampires, whining about the Ring of Hotek, whining about the Pendant of Khaeleth, whining about Flamers (so, Daemons again. Why am I not surprised...), Daemons a THIRD time....
Don't think you missed anything. Unless you'd care to have another go at Daemons? You might as well, it's all anyone ever says about them any more....


MalusCalibur

Karlon
08-04-2009, 22:18
I think this has got to be the whiniest single post on Warseer...
Let's see, you covered whining about Daemons, whining about Vampires, whining about the Ring of Hotek, whining about the Pendant of Khaeleth, whining about Flamers (so, Daemons again. Why am I not surprised...), Daemons a THIRD time....
Don't think you missed anything. Unless you'd care to have another go at Daemons? You might as well, it's all anyone ever says about them any more....


MalusCalibur

Daemon player spotted.

Ri-xthoal Lord of Lustira
08-04-2009, 22:50
I can see that in the deep jungle of Lustia the slanns are meditating to communicate with the old ones, deamons continue to stir darkness around the world, and the rest not knowing of whenever they protect the light and keep all living things in order or should the forces of darkness prevail then we are lost in a gripping hands of the dark gods.

bob_the_small
08-04-2009, 23:18
Old one's plans carry on as normal? I think not!

Weemo
08-04-2009, 23:28
I think this has got to be the whiniest single post on Warseer...
Let's see, you covered whining about Daemons, whining about Vampires, whining about the Ring of Hotek, whining about the Pendant of Khaeleth, whining about Flamers (so, Daemons again. Why am I not surprised...), Daemons a THIRD time....
Don't think you missed anything. Unless you'd care to have another go at Daemons? You might as well, it's all anyone ever says about them any more....


MalusCalibur

i thought it was just some observational satire tbh, must agree with Karlon, if you play a cheese army people will say you stink

MalusCalibur
08-04-2009, 23:31
Daemon player spotted.

Oh, so because I play Daemons my opinion no longer counts? Charming.

You can't deny that whining about Daemons is the new 'in' thing, and a lot of the things people complain about are for the sake of it, rather than being real issues (1+ save Heralds, Obsidian Armour Bloodthirsters, etc etc).

I'm as interested in balancing Daemons as much as anyone. But I'm not even remotely interested in the pitiful complaints about them that mostly infest Warseer, and the poorly thought out 'fixlists' that are becoming so common, including taking away their 'true' ward save, and giving them back the 'insta-gib' instability.

Complaining about things (such as the DE items mentioned, or Daemons in general) on Warseer isn't going to get them fixed. And taking a jab at them every single time Daemons are even mentioned is far from productive, and frankly insulting to those of us (like myself) who play Daemons because we like them, and avoid using the 'uberlist' (a concept present in most armies these days). Should we be robbed of all the things that make Daemons good and unique, because a handful of WaaC players have made everyone seemingly unable to bother to think of ways to fight Daemons?

Ugh, anyway. On topic: Yes, in terms of the background Daemons are probably the most powerful individual force, but full scale incursions (ie those that demonstrate this fact) are rare. Not 'every other day', or 'besieging every race's capital'.


MalusCalibur

Orcboy_Phil
09-04-2009, 00:45
I have to agree with you Malus,I'm also getting very annoyed at the antidaemon rethoric that keeps going on. Despite paying a fortune for my all Nurgle Army before the book even arrived I've used it thrice. Nobody will play it because of all the whining that goes on about demons both on and offline. It was the same with my biker horde. I ordered ten boxes of them to create a speedfreak army when they went to preorder but I can't use them as everybody hates nob bikers.

Shamfrit
09-04-2009, 00:58
And in all this retardation...

Not one of you cared to mention the fact the Skaven have a NUCLEAR BOMB...

:wtf:

LKHERO
09-04-2009, 01:04
And in all this retardation...

Not one of you cared to mention the fact the Skaven have a NUCLEAR BOMB...

:wtf:

What is this nuclear bomb you speak of? I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic..

Shamfrit
09-04-2009, 01:14
They built what can only be described as a warpstone bomb and buried it beneath an Empire City (beginning with M, lots of snow...can't remember.)

It didn't go off naturally, faulty wiring :( But it's there, and ticking away.

Orcboy_Phil
09-04-2009, 13:26
Boom, boom... yessss!

MalusCalibur
09-04-2009, 15:26
They built what can only be described as a warpstone bomb and buried it beneath an Empire City (beginning with M, lots of snow...can't remember.)

It didn't go off naturally, faulty wiring :( But it's there, and ticking away.

Twas Middenheim, during the Storm of Chaos-so technically, it isn't there at the moment since the timeline got rolled back.

But yes, should that thing go off, Middenheim would be little more than a smoking crater. Along with most of the rest of the Empire, I'd wager.


MalusCalibur