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NotFarnaby
03-02-2009, 03:42
This question particularly concerns Greater Daemons and the like: big killy characters able to challenge.

My last game, I baited a bloodthirster with 3 wounds left into charging my unit of blackguard. No ASF, and he challenges my unit champ to minimize damage. Predictably, he gets squashed and overkilled, but the unit holds.

Next turn, I flank the thing with my 6 Cold One Knights, which I give +1 attacks with the cauldron bonus. I figure with banner, 3 ranks, flank bonus, and outnumber, I've got enough static that with some active CR I can get it to pop. Then the bloodthirster challenges and I realize I have a unit champion... I have to accept, right? That's the way I played it. Basically, it becomes immune to the 10 S6 and 5 S4 rerolled attacks? I guess it went something like

"6 Knights" - Raar! We're gonna run you through with our spears!

"Daemon" - You know what? I'd actually prefer it if I could just take on that guy.

"Unit champ" - Oh. I guess that's ok. You five, wait over there while I get disemboweled.

Anyway, the thing beat down the champ, loses by 3, and pops anyway, but it seemed kind of lame.

Is this the way it always works? With the mechanics of challenging, big things like daemon princes, 'thirsters and the like can essentially rob a flanking unit of cavalry, ogres, etc of most/all of their killing power just by challenging some stooge unit champ. Is there anything I can do about it short of dropping my unit champs?

dooombot
03-02-2009, 03:49
you don't have to accept a challenge.
i know in a block of RnF infantry, for example, if you refuse a challenge your Unit Champ (or Character) has to go to the back rank and can't fight that round.

i don't have the book in front of me, and i'm not sure what happens if you refuse when you only have one rank....regardless, suffice to say that you can refuse a challenge

pkain762
03-02-2009, 03:59
if you only have one rank, you can not refuse.... you have to challenge because there is no where to go.....

kain

Lord Inquisitor
03-02-2009, 04:02
The Challenge rules are flat out horrible. Yes, if you don't have a rank to hide behind, you can't refuse the challenge.

This sort of thing happens all the time. Last game I played, I had my Keeper of Secrets in combat with a Dark Elf dragon. I was coming off the worse for wear and charged a unit of daemonettes in to try and help kill the rider. Of course, he challenges and the daemonettes lacking a champion, I had to accept with my Keeper.

I'm sure the Challenge rules were designed to allow mighty heroes to meet and duel in massed combat but noone uses the rules for that! Challenges are used to avoid combat. Funny, there's no rule to allow my Keeper to tell her minions to actually help out here don't just stand there!

FaHeMan89
03-02-2009, 04:12
You dont need a back rank to hide in. The rule book states "The retiring character is moved to a position in the unit where he is not in base contact with any enemy and replaced with a rank-and-file- trooper. If this is not possible, as there are no positions in the unit where the character can avoid being in base contact with an enemy, the challenge cannot be refused and must be met"... the character looses all bonuses if he declines the challenge
In your situation, if you had 6 knights charge the bloodthirster, then theoretically the champion could have replaced one of the troopers not in contact with the monster, thus avoiding the challenge

pkain762
03-02-2009, 05:25
yeah but he can put his bloodthirster on your character as long as there are maximum enemy bases in contact.... so therefore you can't avoid it

kain

therisnosaurus
03-02-2009, 07:31
I'm sure the Challenge rules were designed to allow mighty heroes to meet and duel in massed combat but noone uses the rules for that! Challenges are used to avoid combat. Funny, there's no rule to allow my Keeper to tell her minions to actually help out here don't just stand there!

I so have an image of this keeper styling itself up as the dragon bears down on it, and when a bunch of daemonettes charge in it's like 'hey, hey, guys, it's ok, I think I got this, you just... uh, do some motivational dances there... uh, yeah, that's right. ohhhhh that's some good jiggle...

TheDarkDaff
03-02-2009, 07:41
yeah but he can put his bloodthirster on your character as long as there are maximum enemy bases in contact.... so therefore you can't avoid it

kain

You can't move in combat like that. 6 Knights would get a maximum of 4 models in base contact with the Thrister so you could refuse the challenge and move the champ to the end of the Unit taking him out of combat. If you get your Champ on the end of the unit he can avoid being in Base Contact altogether which would make the Bloodthirster unable to issue a challenge in the first place.

Lord Khabal
03-02-2009, 07:42
yep, its the challenges rule that screwed WOC in the first place...

Chaos Undecided
03-02-2009, 10:13
One particular pet peeve I have with the challenge rule is how it interferes with Assassin type characters. I've always fealt they should be able to ignore challenges in favor of being able to attack their intended target rather than get diverted by an opposing champion if their own unit doesnt have another character/champion to accept in their place.

After all these guys are meant to strike before anyone else knows whats going on and arent at least from my point of view probably all that big on honor.

warlord hack'a
03-02-2009, 10:14
you can also look at it from the other side: if YOU have a good fighty character in a fully ranked up unit of less capable fighters and you get charged by a blood thirster then challenging might be a good idea. If you do not challenge the bloodthirster will kill a lot of your r&f troops, if you do challenge then the bloodthirster faces a better ws,T armour save and ward save so will do less wounds. most likely the wardsave being the main factor here ;-).

TheDarkDaff
03-02-2009, 11:10
One of the funniest things you will ever see is a Bloodthrister with the Firestorm blade stuck in a challenge against a High Elf Hero in Dragon Armour in a Fully ranked unit of spearmen.

Harwammer
03-02-2009, 12:27
FaHeMan89 is correct, you don't need extra ranks to refuse a challenge; as long as there is a model out of combat in the unit the refusing character can be put there.

Disciple of Caliban
03-02-2009, 13:58
One of the funniest things you will ever see is a Bloodthrister with the Firestorm blade stuck in a challenge against a High Elf Hero in Dragon Armour in a Fully ranked unit of spearmen.
Thats great!!

Emeraldw
03-02-2009, 14:43
I think in that case you can tell your opponent that he's kinda abusing the rules for challenges. Or tell him your no down dirty Cold one knight champion laughs at you and says "Sure" Then attacks with all his mates. May not be in the official rules, but I think it goes with the "most important rule."

If he looks at you funny, just say "I am a dark Elf! What did you expect?"

Havock
03-02-2009, 15:16
For all I care it gives your opponent +1 CR for having the 'moral high ground'.

Lord Inquisitor
03-02-2009, 15:53
I think in that case you can tell your opponent that he's kinda abusing the rules for challenges. Or tell him your no down dirty Cold one knight champion laughs at you and says "Sure" Then attacks with all his mates. May not be in the official rules, but I think it goes with the "most important rule."

If he looks at you funny, just say "I am a dark Elf! What did you expect?"

Thing is, he's using the Challenge rules correctly. Go to any tournament (or indeed, friendly game) and most of the time you'll find that people find it a normal practice. Hell, I do it too - just because I don't like the rules doens't mean I won't use them.

The fault lies squarely with the challenge rules themselves - the rules are perfectly clear that if you cannot refuse a challenge you must accept. There's no question this is how the rules are intended to work.

I sincerely hope they change this in the next edition of Warhammer, until then, it's just a pain unless you indeed come up with a house rule.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
03-02-2009, 16:04
One particular pet peeve I have with the challenge rule is how it interferes with Assassin type characters. I've always fealt they should be able to ignore challenges in favor of being able to attack their intended target rather than get diverted by an opposing champion if their own unit doesnt have another character/champion to accept in their place.

After all these guys are meant to strike before anyone else knows whats going on and arent at least from my point of view probably all that big on honor.

Assasins are balls to begin with. Without sacrificing a unit champ or sucking it into combat with an uber lord the thing would literally jump up and clear a rank a turn before even my Asur strike! If it wasnt for challenges I dont know what one would do to deal with it :(

could you not call a challenge first you charged no? Atleast that gives you some say in the matter but obviously not what you wanted granted the knights have no ranks..

Better luck next time :);)

McMullet
03-02-2009, 16:08
The point behind a challenge is that someone identified as the best fighter in the unit (the champion) fights on behalf of the unit as a whole: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_combat#Single_Combat

If you don't want to be engaged in challenges, for tactical reasons or for background reasons (e.g., Skaven or Dark Elves have too much self interest to fight an enemy champion) then there is a simple answer: DON'T BUY CHAMPIONS FOR YOUR REGIMENTS.

Mazdug
03-02-2009, 16:19
I don't take champions in my Cav units, the extra attack isn't worth risking the opponent abusing the challenge rules to avoid being steam rolled by my Chaos Knights/Savage Orc Boar Boys. That said, In the above situation, refusing the challenge and moving the character out of the fight is the way to go, but this isn't always a garunteed to be an option, because frequently your heavy cav will still lose a model or two during the rush across the board, and then your frontage isn't wider then that of a monstrous creature, and you are stuck.

Think to yourself when building the army, is it really worth the exta points to have 1 extra attack on a unit that should be steam rolling everything it hits, or can I use those points elsewhere to better effect, and save myself the risk of having my unit challenged, the champ slaughtered, and then lost to overkill.

ewar
03-02-2009, 17:06
Personally I don't find any issues - there are many ways to use it to your advantage. Just learn to place characters you don't want in a challenge out of a fighting position in the first place and you can't be challenged to start with. There's nothing wrong with the rule.

Storak
03-02-2009, 18:53
simple rule:

champions are ablative armor for important characters. if you plan to put a char in the unit, you want a champion to take challenges.
in most other cases, you wont want one.

Lord Inquisitor
03-02-2009, 19:01
Is that what the challenge rules are really for? Providing heavy characters with a sacrificial bodyguard so they can avoid fighting anyone their own size and can get on with smashing bozos?

Storak
03-02-2009, 19:46
i have made plenty of irrational choices on challenges with my characters.

but the orcs will fall apart faster than an undead army, after my general dies and the magic phases become horrible, when my BSB dies.
i simply can t sacrifice them to some swollen ego, against a BT of khorne..

the problem isn t with chars their size. its the guys 2 sizes bigger, that require a champion...

thrawn
03-02-2009, 21:39
I put a herald of nurgle on palaquin with the opponent always strikes last gift, this way affect as many models as possible. my frined challanges me and the way we play a challenge (like back in 6th edition) we put the models to the side to represent them fighting alone. so now all his dark guard still got to attack first. what's more is my friend had a DE lord with the 2+ ward save (you know the one) and the regenrate armour. he couldn't die. so i got stuck fighting a guy i couln't wound while he wore down my herald and his dark guard killed my plague bearers. wasn't too happy with that one.

NotFarnaby
04-02-2009, 02:40
Boo hoo, you poor little daemon player.

Is that right, though? Do noxious vapors cease to affect the unit if the "always on a palaquin" heralds get challenged? I always played it that they still get hit with the vapors.

EldarBishop
04-02-2009, 03:32
simple answer: DON'T BUY CHAMPIONS FOR YOUR REGIMENTS.

That doesn't work for me - Brets :D

I don't really see any issues and/or have never had any issues with the challenge rules.

warlord hack'a
04-02-2009, 06:24
the moving the oppsing fighters out of the regiment is purely for clarities sake (and to push you into painting your champs and characters reallly nicely so everyone can go oooh and aaah when they see then standing next to the unit), it does not mean they liteerally step out of the unit, walk to the side and meet head on aagin. So in short, they are still in the unit and thus I see no reason why special effects they have that affect nearby models seize to work.

Jack Champion
04-02-2009, 10:17
Yeah that always bugged me when people claimed that taking out of the unit took away the model in contact abilities. I always endeavour just to swap the rank and file for them to face each other.

Havock
04-02-2009, 10:18
Yeah that always bugged me when people claimed that taking out of the unit took away the model in contact abilities. I always endeavour just to swap the rank and file for them to face each other.

Only if there are more ranks etc :)

W0lf
04-02-2009, 10:29
If you had a dreadlord with pendant that BT would have likely been wrecked by static+S6 attacks.

and this threads stupid, ofc it dosnt give you damage immunity. This thread is more like; big gribbly killed my unit champ... omg.

Neknoh
04-02-2009, 10:31
It depends on the challenge at hand I dare say.

The best challenge I've fought to date was a proxied anti-daemon High Elf army I whipped up.

The swordmaster champions were BOTH immune to Flaming attacks, needless to say, he brought a thirster and flamers. The thirster had the Hellstorm blade or whatever mr blade of flamey death is called. He knew Dragon Princes were immune to fire, so he let them pummel the Flamers, the Swordmasters however, prooved a shiny beacon of "hit us" for him.

One charge and one challenge later and he realised his mistake. The swordmaster champion caused a wound now and then, their banner, rank and outnumber caused another. By turn six, he popped.


EDIT: And despite Wolf's harsh words, I would have to agree, this thread is less about mitigating damage in a challenge and theorising and discussing whether to go offensive or defensive, and more about "Challenge is broken because I could not slam my coldone knights into the bloodthirster". Furthermore... how did he loose by 3? I count 4 Ranks, Flank, Outnumber, Standard. That's CR6, a Bloodthirster with the proper gear SHOULD have 6 wounds on a unit champion (1 wound+5 overkill = 6) tying combat, loosing by 1 if you have a musician.

Dooks Dizzo
04-02-2009, 15:09
how did he loose by 3? I count 4 Ranks, Flank, Outnumber, Standard. That's CR6, a Bloodthirster with the proper gear SHOULD have 6 wounds on a unit champion (1 wound+5 overkill = 6) tying combat, loosing by 1 if you have a musician. A BT is not guaranteed 6 wounding hits by any means. 7 attacks on a 3+ averages you 5 hits? We'll even give him 5 wounds, though he'd likely roll a 1 in there somewhere. At S6 the CoK is still getting a 5+ save.

He'd probably end up with 3 wounds all told, less with crappy dice. Not to mention the champ has a good chance of sticking a wound on the Thirster on the charge. 3 S6 attacks with rerolls isn't bad at all.

A BSB or a Warbanner in the unit gives +1 or 2 to SCR.

Havock
04-02-2009, 15:10
The BT has a tendency to makes his dislike of your presence known via rerolls.

Dooks Dizzo
04-02-2009, 15:17
Oh yeah, I would like to point out that this is a tactic that cuts both ways. My plan for killing big gribblies is the polar opposite to your and it works beautifully.

I go:
BSB with a 0+ armor save and the pendant in a CoK unit with a Warbanner. Challenge the BT with the BSB. Unless he's S10 I am getting a decent armor save and then an effective 2+ ward. He scores no wounds (usually) and I score none.

Then it's win by 4 and he tries to roll low on 2D6. Usually kills him in 2 turns with no losses on my side.

Dooks Dizzo
04-02-2009, 15:19
The BT has a tendency to makes his dislike of your presence known via rerolls.Fair enough to be sure. But he 'only' rerolls misses not wounds. Worst case is reroll hits and S10. But I see a lot of Obsidian armor and such out there, so one or the other is out.
It's all situational but by no means is the BT guaranteed to hit and wound 6 times with 7 attacks.

Lord Aislinn
04-02-2009, 15:56
One of the funniest things you will ever see is a Bloodthrister with the Firestorm blade stuck in a challenge against a High Elf Hero in Dragon Armour in a Fully ranked unit of spearmen.


Now FAQ'ed

You ignore the flaming rule, so would still get regen, but you still get twatted by a strength 7 bloodthirster, just your puny elf gets to know he put the fire out first.

Lord Aislinn
04-02-2009, 15:58
Fair enough to be sure. But he 'only' rerolls misses not wounds. Worst case is reroll hits and S10. But I see a lot of Obsidian armor and such out there, so one or the other is out.
It's all situational but by no means is the BT guaranteed to hit and wound 6 times with 7 attacks.

The power soulhunger lets you re-roll wounds in the first round of combat. Though if I remember correctly, the bloodthirster ironically doesn't get frenzy.

GUCO have to buy regen

And LOC gets a 5++, and a herald of tzeentch gets a 4++

Lord Aislinn
04-02-2009, 16:00
Oh yeah, I would like to point out that this is a tactic that cuts both ways. My plan for killing big gribblies is the polar opposite to your and it works beautifully.

I go:
BSB with a 0+ armor save and the pendant in a CoK unit with a Warbanner. Challenge the BT with the BSB. Unless he's S10 I am getting a decent armor save and then an effective 2+ ward. He scores no wounds (usually) and I score none.

Then it's win by 4 and he tries to roll low on 2D6. Usually kills him in 2 turns with no losses on my side.

You get an effective 3+ ward, the rulebook clearly states any roll of a 1 for a ward save automatically fails. Don't cry and say it's different like all the dark elf players do, it's the only ward save in the game that that applies to.

Dooks Dizzo
04-02-2009, 16:19
You get an effective 3+ ward, the rulebook clearly states any roll of a 1 for a ward save automatically fails. Don't cry and say it's different like all the dark elf players do, it's the only ward save in the game that that applies toWell since you seem to be a big fan of FAQ's you might want to read the DE one.

Don't cry like all non Dark Elf players do, it works like it is intended. Feel free to apologize for being presumptuous and condesending.

Dooks Dizzo
04-02-2009, 16:22
Also, not to be a **** but I can't find the part about the Flaming attacks and the Dragon Armor for the high elves. I makes sense, but I can't find the ruling.

Havock
04-02-2009, 17:38
Fair enough to be sure. But he 'only' rerolls misses not wounds. Worst case is reroll hits and S10. But I see a lot of Obsidian armor and such out there, so one or the other is out.
It's all situational but by no means is the BT guaranteed to hit and wound 6 times with 7 attacks.

Nope, but 5 times is a very reasonable amount ;)

Dooks Dizzo
04-02-2009, 18:03
For S10 rerolling misses is 5 wounds average. S6 rerolling misses is 3.4 :)

Either way, it's a good day for a BT. But a static combat res of 5 or 6 or so should still see him losing. I assume in the example of the game given the Thirster just rolled like crap.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
04-02-2009, 18:40
Is that what the challenge rules are really for? Providing heavy characters with a sacrificial bodyguard so they can avoid fighting anyone their own size and can get on with smashing bozos?


lol. Thats a rather sick way to look at honour i suppose. But bravery has a steep price. Why are all the best warriors so cautious you ask? Maybe because they avoided the challenges to obtain the skills to fight well later on in life! If an aspiring young warrior wants to live to be an equal to a chaos lord he cant be crushed at 15yrs of age :skull::angel: thats the only explanaiton i can think of :)

Dragon Prince of Caledor
04-02-2009, 18:45
Well since you seem to be a big fan of FAQ's you might want to read the DE one.

Don't cry like all non Dark Elf players do, it works like it is intended. Feel free to apologize for being presumptuous and condesending.

What's with the beef? Not necessary IMO... Thus illustrating stereotypes and why they exist unfortunate as it is. Its fun :) Lets keep it that way :angel:

Dooks Dizzo
04-02-2009, 19:55
You're correct Caledor, however the poster was both rude and wrong in the same breath and assumed without any information that I fit the stereotype that he has of people who play my army.