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Gharof von Carstein
03-02-2009, 12:25
this question is about O&G. it states that a normal orc boyz unit when upgraded to big 'uns can carry a magical standard up to 50 points. i can upgrade savage orc boyz to big 'uns as well but it does not state here that they can carry a magical banner up to 50 points. is this a global rule for big 'uns and thus my boyz can carry a magic standard or are the savage orcs the exception here in that they cant?

Avian
03-02-2009, 12:30
Savage Big 'Un infantry can't get a magic standard. As a rule of thumb, an option listed for one unit doesn't apply to other units (it would be nice to give Trolls great weapons, but you can't because the option belongs to a completely different unit).

Old Gobbo
03-02-2009, 13:13
It's tucked away somewhere in the Army Book, but a single unit of Big Uns may have a Magic Standard worth 50pts I.e Orc Boys, Savage Orc Boys, Orc Boars or Savage Boars.

Gharof von Carstein
03-02-2009, 13:26
oke im hearing different things here now. can someone confirm this for me? like page of army book etc?

Avian
03-02-2009, 13:35
Old Gobbo is referencing the previous version of the army book, I'm referencing the current one.

For a page reference, compare the wordings on the four units that can be upgraded to Big 'Uns on pages 52 and 54. If they all followed the same rule, they would all have the same wording on the Big 'Un option. They don't.

Storak
03-02-2009, 19:03
the savage orc standard was left at the same place , where the fear causing of gigantic spider and squigs was left as well.

that mystical place of forgotten rules also contains the special rules for black orcs and boar boys and half our magic items.
a special rule to improve the O&G magic phase and the POSITIVE part of our army special rules was left there as well.

deep down there you might even find a reason to use common goblins (on foot) or (shock) one for giving them spears.

Braad
03-02-2009, 21:29
I can only confirm what Avian says. Nowhere in the book does it say that all big 'uns can take a magic banner as a general rule, nor does it say savage orcs can take them. So: they can't. There's just the entry in the boyz, but that doesn't have anything to do with savage boyz.

In addition, its not the boar boy big 'uns that can take a magic banner, its just one unit in general that can. So not related to big 'uns at all. This ends in the fact that the only unit of big 'uns in the book that can take a magic banner specifically because the are big 'uns, are the normal boyz on foot. I'd hardly call that a 'general rule' or something like that...

Some people think that allowing savages to take magic banners would often result in them taking the banner of butchery, which would result in something like 21 attacks in one go, and that this would have been a bit too much.

theunwantedbeing
03-02-2009, 21:57
Page 52 of the Orc&Goblin book.

Orc boyz may be upgraded to big'uns
then states they may have a magical banner
Savage orcs may be upgraded to big'uns.
Doesn't say anything about being allowed a magical banner

No magical banner for savage orc big'uns.
Most likely due to the whole "banner of butchery = stupid number of attacks"
Also possibly to stop them getting morks spirit totem as an immune to psychology unit generating dispel dice based on rank bonus is pretty harsh.

cm2008
03-02-2009, 22:35
You could take a magic banner with a BSB, and put him with the savage orcs.

Old Gobbo
04-02-2009, 12:52
This is a question of interpretation, and also a command of the English Language. You also have to bear in mind that GW Rule books are prone error and ommission, that the FAQ & Errata pages on their website are not updated on a regular basis and are often out of date and once a rule has been described it isn't normally duplicated for every relevant troop choice.

So to the Army book itself what does the book actually say:

Page 52 covers the relevant ruling and Bigun's special rules are covered under Orc Boz by virtue of Orc Boyz being the first Orc unit listed.

I quote: One unit in the army may be upgraded to Big 'Uns for +4pts/model. (note at this point there is a full stop) A unit of Big 'Uns may carry a Magic Standard worth up to 50pts.

This clearly states that a unit of Big 'Uns may carry a Magic Standard worth 50pts and I would take that to mean that any unit of Big 'Uns (regardless of type) would benefit from this rule.

To support my argument look at what it says under each Orc listing that allows the Big 'Un upgrade. One unit in the Army may be Upgraded to Big 'Uns. If you use the argument presented by Avian (and sorry mate I don't particularly want to single you out) that would mean that you could have a Unit of Orc Boyz Big 'Uns, a Unit of Savage Orc Big 'Uns, a Unit of Boar Rider Big 'Uns and a Unit of Savage Orc Boar Rider Big 'Uns all in the same army, this is because you would only be selecting one unit of each type in the Army for the Upgrade. Clearly this is wrong as the intention of the Ruleset is to allow only one unit of Big'uns per Army (unless of course you take Gorbad Ironclaw as your Army General). Note that under Gorbad Ironclaws rules it states any number of Orc or Orc Boar Rider units may be upgraded to Big 'Uns, the term Orc in this case is generic and applies to all Orcs including Savage Orcs.

My point is you have to take the ruleset in it's entirity to get the correct answer, not just focus on a single sentence. I therefore stand by my intrepetation that all Big 'Un units benefit from the ability to take a Magic Standard up to the value of 50pts.

Nurgling Chieftain
04-02-2009, 15:30
I'm going to have to disagree with you on both counts, Old Gobbo. Attempting to apply rules given for one unit out of context is a recipe for disaster in so many ways I don't even know where to start. Let's take the bullet point under Orc Boyz that says "Any unit" may buy shields for +1 point per model. Any unit? Okay, let's give shields to the snotlings, etc.! That's where your reasoning leads.

Avian
04-02-2009, 15:31
I quote: One unit in the army may be upgraded to Big 'Uns for +4pts/model. (note at this point there is a full stop) A unit of Big 'Uns may carry a Magic Standard worth up to 50pts.

This clearly states that a unit of Big 'Uns may carry a Magic Standard worth 50pts and I would take that to mean that any unit of Big 'Uns (regardless of type) would benefit from this rule.
Well, the first sentence clearly only applies to Orc Boyz (you can't upgrade Orc Boar Boyz for 4 pts a model). So why do you think the second sentence applies to other units?

Furthermore, if units can use options belonging to other units, presumably you think that I can give Trolls additional choppas? It does after all say "any unit" and if you don't think that this means "any unit of this type", what is stopping Trolls with additional choppas?


To support my argument look at what it says under each Orc listing that allows the Big 'Un upgrade. One unit in the Army may be Upgraded to Big 'Uns. If you use the argument presented by Avian (and sorry mate I don't particularly want to single you out) that would mean that you could have a Unit of Orc Boyz Big 'Uns, a Unit of Savage Orc Big 'Uns, a Unit of Boar Rider Big 'Uns and a Unit of Savage Orc Boar Rider Big 'Uns all in the same army, this is because you would only be selecting one unit of each type in the Army for the Upgrade.
Yes, you absolutely CAN have one Big 'Un unit of each type (so four in total, unless you take Gorbad).

On both of these points you are hung up on the 6th edition rules, which very clearly let you only have one Big 'Un unit of any type, and let that unit take a magic standard, regardless of what it was. This edition has changed and if you started playing in 7th edition you wouldn't be confused. :p

Storak
04-02-2009, 16:27
4 units of big uns it is. if only they were worth taking......

PS. i love problems like this. i had endless discussions with fellow German players in the past, because the word for "a" and "one" is the same (ein) in our language.
the rules used to say that "ONE" chariot in the army may carry a magic banner, while the translation allowed banners on ALL chariots..

Braad
04-02-2009, 16:31
I completely agree with Avian again. A units entry only describes the rules for that entry, not for others.
One can simply not know if those changes (like allowing more big 'uns then 1 unit, or exempting savage orc from a magic banner) is an error or on purpose. There were plenty of changes from 6th to 7th, so why can't this be one?
For example, now we have different rules for ignoring panic in the smaller gits. Are we to ignore the new ruling and refer to the old ones, because they are different and therefore likely an error?

Don't try to find old rules in the new book. If it's not in the new book, don't refer to the old ones just because you think that rule should be there. The new books are always completely independent from the last edition. If its there, use it; if its not there, don't use it.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
04-02-2009, 16:48
Page 52 of the Orc&Goblin book.

Orc boyz may be upgraded to big'uns
then states they may have a magical banner
Savage orcs may be upgraded to big'uns.
Doesn't say anything about being allowed a magical banner

No magical banner for savage orc big'uns.
Most likely due to the whole "banner of butchery = stupid number of attacks"
Also possibly to stop them getting morks spirit totem as an immune to psychology unit generating dispel dice based on rank bonus is pretty harsh.

By this argument then, I can have one unit of Orc Big'uns and one unit of Savage Orc Big'uns then right? [Sorry, I see this was addressed in later posts.]

Also, does carrying an additional choppa give a unit +2 str in the first round of combats? I think one can make an argument for it.
"Choppas are handweapons in all respects. They also confer a +1
Strength bonus to models on foot in the first round of each combat."
So, if a choppa gives a +1 bonus, wouldn't two choppas each provide
this bonus? Wouldn't this be a bit of help to the 'underpowered' O&G book?

Nuada
04-02-2009, 16:55
additional choppa give a unit +2 str in the first round of combat

I'm going to vote for you writing the new O&G book :D

Storak
04-02-2009, 17:34
Also, does carrying an additional choppa give a unit +2 str in the first round of combats? I think one can make an argument for it.
"Choppas are handweapons in all respects. They also confer a +1
Strength bonus to models on foot in the first round of each combat."
So, if a choppa gives a +1 bonus, wouldn't two choppas each provide
this bonus? Wouldn't this be a bit of help to the 'underpowered' O&G book?

oh i love this one. will try to take a look at the rule as soon as possible..

Old Gobbo
04-02-2009, 17:47
I see there's no point trying to convert the stubborn or the plain misguided (I'm trying not to be offensive despite my exasperation),

Read the whole rules not the bit you want. I am not hung up on 6th Edition, the evidence is clear if you want to see it.

If ONLY Orc Boyz Big 'Uns could take a Magical Standard the wording would be This unit of Big 'Uns may take a Magical Standard worth 50pts. The Army book actually states A Big 'Un unit may take a Magical Standard worth 50pts. Furthermore the bullet point sentence says that a single unit in the ARMY may be upgraded to Big'uns. This is followed by a full stop and a descriptive sentence, i.e. a Big 'Un unit may take a Magical Standard worth 50pts. It is a stand alone sentence and applies to all Big 'Uns. As to the assumption that you can have one unit of each type of Big 'Un without taking Gorbad Ironclaw, all I can say is get real!! That has to be the most ridiculous assumption I've heard yet. Big 'Uns represent the higher echelons of an Orc tribe banding together, there can ordinarily only be one mob.

At the end of the day I am confident that the interpretation I have given is correct, whether you choose to accept reason is your choice.

Nuada
04-02-2009, 18:26
Sorry Old Gobbo, not picking on you here, but i don't think that's right.

It doesn't matter if they've writen "a big 'un unit" or "this big 'un unit" , the important thing to note is there's a sub heading for each individual core choice. The sub heading describes the options for each particular core choice. The reason the author has written "a big 'uns unit" is simply because it's always singular, there can be no more than one big 'uns unit. (excluding Gorbad)

I wish savage orc big 'uns could have a magic banner, but it's not an option unless you take a BSB.



(btw i notice you're from nott'm....... go Forest!!! they'll have man u easily)

EDIT: hhhmmm well maybe not, thought they'd have the rams at the city ground. Ah well

stripsteak
04-02-2009, 21:00
old gobbo you have to take the rules in bullet points as applying to only that unit. As demonstrated in the OnG book they will repeat themselves when a ruling applies to multiple units. take a look at the orc big boss, and goblin big boss entries. they both include the rules for being a BSB in the entirety even though they are on facing pages. When a rule is to be applied to multiple units it is written separately from the unit themselves.

for example in the HE book one core unit may bring a magic standard. this rule is written seperately from any core choice. it isn't presented just ith the first core choice for you to assume it applies to others.

another example of how they have done this is in the dwarf book with rangers. they are presented seperately from the units that can be upgraded into them. and specifically state one unit of x or y or z may be upgraded into rangers.

if you are going to assume that a bullet point, or even just a part of a bullet point can apply to other units then whats stopping you from bringing nets in your unit of black orcs. after all under night goblins it just says 'any unit may be equipped with nets' black orcs are 'any unit', they must be able to take a net.

Orc Boyz:
One unit in the army may be upgraded to Big 'Uns for _ pts/model. A unit of Big 'Uns may carry a magic standard worth __ points.
is read as One unit of orc boyz of the multiple you may have in your army, may be upgraded. If they are upgraded to big uns this unit of orc boyz big uns may take a magic standard.

seperately you can also bring a unit of savage orcs big uns since their rules also say that one unit of savage orcs in the army may be upgraded. they can not take a standard though since that is not listed under their rules, and it is not listed seperately as something that applies to all big uns

Old Gobbo
04-02-2009, 22:08
Sorry guys but you are sooooooooooooooooooooooo wrong! By your interpretation you can take 4 Big Un units without taking Gorbad Iroclaw. That kind of makes Orcs are da best redundant.

Think logically and you'll come up with the correct answer.

1. It is highly unlikely that any Orc Tribe would have more than one unit of Big 'uns. The exception is Gorbad Ironclaw who attracts Orcs & Goblins from far and wide to join his mega Waagh!

2. If any unit in an Orc army was going to have a Magical Banner it would be the Big 'Uns. Savage Orcs are far more Magically attuned as they stick to the ancient traditions of Orcdom. The Shaman's are intregal to the Savage Orc way of life generating the potions charms & various narcotic substances to put the Boyz into their frenzied state. (For an historical comparison check out Zulu history & traditions). Just imagine you have a Savage Orc horde, a unit of Savage Orc Boar Riders is waving it's Magical banner around and is spotted by the mob of Savage Orc Big 'uns. How long do you really think they'd get to keep the banner before the Big 'Uns knocked 7 barrels out of them and nicked it! And before you dismiss this fluff as irrelevant have a read of the main RULEBOOK regarding the interpretation of RULES and how in the case of a dispute you should go with the interpretation that makes the most sense.

3. As previously stated READ what the rules say: There are two key sentences. A Big 'Un unit may take a magic standard worth 50pts, it is a meant as a descriptor to cover all Orcs.

You are getting hung up by the fact that it follows the line One unit may be upgraded to Big 'Uns. IF the rule only applied to Orc Boyz so upgraded it would all be covered in one sentence, there would be no need for a full stop or a second sentence. The bullet point would read, one unit may be upgraded to Big 'uns for +4pts/model which would allow it to take a magical standard worth 50pts.

The second important line is one unit in the Army may be upgraded. This means ONE unit total not one of each.

Nuada, yes I live in Nottingham but I'm not a Forest fan being from God's county (Yorkshire). I'm also a Rugby League man so I'm not too fussed with football. Sorry! it's the Rhinos for me!

stripsteak
04-02-2009, 22:35
Sorry guys but you are sooooooooooooooooooooooo wrong! By your interpretation you can take 4 Big Un units without taking Gorbad Iroclaw. That kind of makes Orcs are da best redundant.

no it's not redundant at all. An army with gorbad could have 4 orc boy big un units. while a regular army can still only have 1 orc boyz big un unit.



1. It is highly unlikely that any Orc Tribe would have more than one unit of Big 'uns. The exception is Gorbad Ironclaw who attracts Orcs & Goblins from far and wide to join his mega Waagh!


That is fluff and unrelated to rules, but if you want to look at it that way. Can't you also see you have a group of the biggest Orc Boyz, a seprate group of the Biggest Savage Orcs, a third group of just the biggest Orc Boar Boyz. Thats all the Big uns are they are just the biggest (pg 19).



The second important line is one unit in the Army may be upgraded. This means ONE unit total not one of each.


no it does not. it applies only to the unit the rule is written with. Look at pg 47 of the OnG book, or the start of the army list section for any book. "Options: Many entries list different ... for giving them to the unit". The options given with a unit ONLY apply to that unit. The other cases where multiple different units can be upgraded in a similar manner is handled in the Dwarf book for making rangers. In this case it written as an entirely seperate entry. In other army books rules that apply to other units are given seprate from any any unit. This is because as the rulebooks point out the options given for a unit are just for that unit.

each unit has the rule that it a single one can be upgraded to a big un version of itself. this rule applies only to the unit that has the rule.
one unit of orc boyz in the army can be upgraded. one unit of savage orcs can be upgraded, etc. if the upgrade applied to only one as a whole it would be formated for like the dwarf book where the restriction is not contained within one of the base units, but a seperate section that spefcifically mentions it applies to all as a whole.

Braad
05-02-2009, 12:23
Well, first of all: the current fluff no longer mentions anything about that the big 'uns, being the bigger orcs, als are more rare in the tribes. So that's a thing of the past. Now the current big 'un fluff only says they are the bigger ones, not a single mention of how many are around.

About the ruleswise bit: old gobbo, if you can point me to a single other unit entry in any of the books, where the rules for one unit are described in anothers unit entry, and not in their own, then I might start thinking you got a point.
If not, I stick to what most think and what I agree with: the rules given in a unit entry are for that unit, and only that unit. Rules that cover more than one unit entry are either repeated in the oppropriate ones, or given as a rule in a special section.

Nuada
05-02-2009, 12:33
Got to agree with Braad.

Look at the night goblins bullet points, the wording is ...."Any unit may conceal up to 3 fanatics"

So does this mean i can conceal fanatics in a unit of wolf riders? if so, i could release all of them on my first turn. It doesn't apply to wolf riders, because it's under the options for night goblins. This same method applies to savage orc big 'uns not having an option to take a magic banner.

Old Gobbo
05-02-2009, 15:30
You are all missing the point. The upgrade is the ability to take Big 'Uns, which covers Orc Boyz, Savage Orc Boyz, Orc Boar Riders & Savage Orc Boar Riders. I take it that we are at least agreed that these are the units that can be upgraded.

On the subject of upgrading to Big 'Uns you will notice that under each of these four troop types it clearly says one unit in the army may be upgraded to Big 'Uns. You will not find under each of these headings one unit may be upgraded to Big 'Uns, but one unit in the army. This is a key part to my argument, until you realise that this means ONE unit in total you are failing to interprete the rules correctly. In every other case where one unit of a particular type can have an upgrade it is written as one unit may take x, y or Z. In no other case is the phrase one unit in your ARMY ever used.

Now to the next stage, the bit that's obviously confusing so many of you, the sentence reads A unit of Big 'Uns may take a Magical Standard worth up to 50pts. As you can normally only have ONE unit of Big 'Uns it is fairly obvious that the definition of 'A unit' refers to the unit selected otherwise it would say 'this unit' or would be listed as separate bullet point.

What you also need to take into account is the history of Orcs & Goblins as a whole, GW are usually fairly consistent with unit types as they evolve from one Army Book incarnation to the next. In all the previous Orc and Goblin Army lists going back to the original edition III only one unit of Big 'uns has ever been allowed in an army, hence my interpretation of the line one unit in your army may be upgraded.

For most of you your whole argument rests on the bullet point and an absolute literal translation of what is written, some of you are also being fascious refering to Night Goblin Fanatics in Wolf Boy units. This is a dispute over wording and the ability to translate what is written correctly.

I'm fortunate enough to be in a position to visit GW HQ on a regular basis and have had the opportunity to speak to many of the Game designers, writers and 'GW celebs' (by virtue of running the main Gaming Club at GW HQ). So in interests of fairness I will try to get a definitive official answer at the earliest opportunity.

Regards

Old Gobbo

stripsteak
05-02-2009, 18:27
In every other case where one unit of a particular type can have an upgrade it is written as one unit may take x, y or Z. In no other case is the phrase one unit in your ARMY ever used.
wrong. quick example skaven book plague monks, "one unit in the army may take a magic standard.." does this ruling also apply to the stormvermin because their rules say they can take a magic standard, so if you take a magic standard on storm vermin you can't take one on plague monks? no the ruling only applies to the plague monks as in one unit of plague monks in the army can take a magic standard.

if you want other examples look at the dwarf book where they do only allow 1 unit of rangers. multiple different units can be upgraded to rangers, but you are only allowed 1 ranger unit. see how this is written completely different from this same situation you are trying to present the big uns as.

look at the HE book they have a rule that applies t all core units. it is not written with the first core unit it is presented separately from them all because it refers to separate units.

rules written with a unit pertain only to that unit.


What you also need to take into account is the history of Orcs & Goblins as a whole, GW are usually fairly consistent with unit types as they evolve from one Army Book incarnation to the next. In all the previous Orc and Goblin Army lists going back to the original edition III only one unit of Big 'uns has ever been allowed in an army, hence my interpretation of the line one unit in your army may be upgraded.

again wrong we don't need to take this into account at all. the question is about the current rules, and not relating to their past or their 'design ideal'. past rules are completely ignored. you cant play with unis that are no longer in the army book simply because they used to be their, you can't use previous rules in arguments of current rules they do not apply at all.


For most of you your whole argument rests on the bullet point and an absolute literal translation of what is written, some of you are also being fascious refering to Night Goblin Fanatics in Wolf Boy units. This is a dispute over wording and the ability to translate what is written correctly.
we are doing this to show you how your logic can fail. you are saying that since the line reads 'a unit of big 'uns' it referes to all units of anything that is a big un. well the lines say 'a unit may take fanatics' so it must apply to anything that is a unit...see the logical problem there.

Braad
05-02-2009, 21:37
Also note that the current rules are written completely different from the old rules. We used to have a section that told us only a single unit could be upgraded. That was clear and obvious, it applied to everything as it was in a special big 'un rules bit, and not under the rules-section of a single type of unit.

However, they changed that. Why? Maybe because they wanted to allow more units of big 'uns. Now the big 'un standard allowance is only given in a single unit entry...

If they give an official answer, ask them to make a FAQ for it. Maybe we can make a few more suggestions too?

skuller
05-02-2009, 23:21
Old gobbo its seems that your reading more the bestiary part related to the fluff that the actual rules for each unit type. Back in 6 edition only one unit of orcs, savage orcs or boar boyz (both normal and savage) could be converted to big uns
7 edition is a completly different monster. You may field up to 4 units of big uns if you take a regular unit of orcs and upgrade them, then a unit of savage and upgrade and then one for each one of boar boyz.
go to the entry on each unit (not on the bestiary and check the references)
Only one orc unit that is upgrade to big uns can carry a magic standard.
then going toward the savage orcs entry states that one unit of savage orc can be upgraded no reference to magical banners so they dont have the ability to get them.
Boar boys (both entries) are allowed to have magic banners so upgrading them to big uns doesnt change nothing.
But now that we mention gorbrad and since i dont have my book since youre allowed to upgrade any number of orcs boys into big uns only one unit is allowed to have magic banner or all the big uns units can??

stripsteak
05-02-2009, 23:33
But now that we mention gorbrad and since i dont have my book since youre allowed to upgrade any number of orcs boys into big uns only one unit is allowed to have magic banner or all the big uns units can??

gorbad only allows you to take any number of orc boyz, and orc boar boyz big un units. he doesn't modify the magic banner restriction.