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Rubicon
03-02-2009, 15:05
Since he has made the unit unbreakable and characters cannot join unbreakable units. I know the question has been asked before but i couldn't find a definitive answer.

Nationalmaverick
03-02-2009, 15:12
Not unless their Unbreakable.

Neckutter
03-02-2009, 19:00
a BSB with the unbreakable banner could join.

Jyrki
07-04-2009, 01:31
Since he has made the unit unbreakable and characters cannot join unbreakable units. I know the question has been asked before but i couldn't find a definitive answer.
The question is much more complicated than it seems at first glance. If you take into account a Q&A from the French Games Workshop Studio made with unofficial answers from Alessio Cavatore himself and what the French Games Workshop Studio says about it, the answer is "no".
I'm really disappointed about that but it seems that it is indeed what the creators of the game had in mind.

The rationale:
You must avoid at all cost and at any time to have models that are "currently" Unbreakable (models being subjects to the rule "Unbreakable" at the time being) and models that are "currently" non-Unbreakable in the same unit.

- A non-Unbreakable character cannot join a unit including Kouran because he's non-Unbreakable, the unit is Unbreakable and Kouran only affects "the Black Guard unit" with his special rule (if it was written as "The unit including Kouran is Unbreakable", it would affect any character in it but it is not the case).
- An Unbreakable character cannot join a unit including Kouran because Kouran's death would mean that the unit would not be Unbreakable anymore but the character would still be Unbreakable and that situation is forbidden.
- A BSB with the Unbreakable banner (Banner of Nagarythe) cannot join a unit including Kouran because a spell (like The Law of Gold) could suppress the power of the banner and you'll end up with a non-Unbreakable character in an Unbreakable unit.
- A non-Unbreakable character can join a unit including a BSB with the Unbreakable banner because the banner would make him Unbreakable. If the banner loses its power, the unit and the character would both be non-Unbreakable.
- An Unbreakable character cannot join a unit including a BSB with the Unbreakable banner because a spell could suppress the power of the banner and you'll end up with an Unbreakable character in an non-Unbreakable unit.

Gazak Blacktoof
07-04-2009, 09:07
Generally only the current situation of the models involved matters.

A non unbreakable character cannot join an unbreakable unit. Kouran doesn't make characters joining the black guard unbreakable so they can't join the unit. Characters can join a unit with the banner of nagarythe (that makes the unit unbreakable) because it affects the whole unit, including characters.

What might happen in the future is largely irrelevant. There are at least 2 other ways that a unit mighty arrive at an illegal composition and both of them can be created quite legitimately

1. Tomb king character on a chariot in a unit of chariots, if the character's chariot is destroyed the unit's composition is no longer legal.

2. Two characters join a unit (almost everybody does this at some point) and only the two characters now remain. This composition is also illegal.

If a unit's composition is illegal you have to rectify it.

The one exception to this that I know of is to do with a warrior priest prayer that made him unbreakable temporarily. Because the effect was fleeting he wasn't allowed to join a unit of flagellants.

I don't believe there's a way to create an unbreakable character in a dark elf army prior to joining a unit with the banner of nagarythe anyway.

rottahn
07-04-2009, 16:59
threadomancy?

Jyrki
07-04-2009, 17:15
Generally only the current situation of the models involved matters.
Apparently, it is not the case with the rule Unbreakable according to the people from Games Workshop. You have to prevent any illegal situation.

theunwantedbeing
07-04-2009, 17:53
No they cant, unless they are unbreakable themselves. (so BsB with the nagarythe banner only).

Malorian
07-04-2009, 18:22
Silly special character...

Nuff said...

Jyrki
07-04-2009, 18:58
(so BsB with the nagarythe banner only).
Not even that, according to the people from Games Workshop.
I was surprised but they are the designers of the game...

My point of view would have been different:
- "The Black Guard unit including Kouran is Unbreakable" means for me that the unit is Unbreakable and that any character in it becomes Unbreakable, just like with the banner. For me, a "Black Guard unit" means the all unit (and, even with characters in it, it's still a "Black Guard unit"). But I'm wrong apparently.
- A BSB with the banner of Nagarythe should be able to join the unit anyway. If the banner loses its power, the BSB has to go (like Gazak Blacktooth said). But that's not the way it should be played unfortunately (we should have guessed when the Q&A about the warrior priest prayer got out).

Gazak Blacktoof
07-04-2009, 19:15
I guess that's fine if it only applies to unbreakability, but as I already pointed out its ridiculous to apply it to anything else as we already have workarounds for those situations in print and any other compromise would be impractical. I'm not sure why you wouldn't also apply the same workaround to unbreakability.

Given that this situation is so unlikely to ever happen that I'll have forgotten this thread by the time it occurs in a game, and I can't read French up to the level that would be required to decipher the unofficial FAQ I'll probably end up applying the general principles anyway.

xragg
07-04-2009, 21:17
The only way to make other DE characters unbreakable is to put them in a unit first, followed by the unbreakable BSB, since there is no set order for how you deploy your characters. Unfortunetly, you still cant get them into the Kouran BG unit cause they will lose their unbreakable status in transition from the BSB unit to the Kouran unit.

Lasher
08-04-2009, 01:32
Does that mean a character cannot join a unit with the Banner of Nagarythe already in it? The banner would make him unbreakable if he were to join it, however, prior to joining the unit, he would be non-unbreakable and the ruling is literally "Characters who are not Unbreakable cannot join Unbreakable units". So is placing the character within the unit at the beginning the only way of getting a character in the same unit as the banner?

By the way, going by the literal interpretation of the rule mentioned above, it would seem to me that assassins may very well start in an unbreakable black guard unit, as they have technically never joined the unit, but started in it instead.

Also, we could speculate whether the assassin's "hiden" rule could override the general rule that non-unbreakable characters may not be in unbreakable units. The rule states that the assassin "begins the game hidden in one of the following units: .... or Black Guard of Naggarond". A conclusion that could be driven from this, is that there is a rule saying an assassin may join a black guard unit.

Lastly, an assassin inside a black guard unit including Kouran is a special case for the reason that he does not have to be revealed until Kouran is dead. After Kouran is dead, characters are free to join the unit, and revealing the assassin will hence no longer create any illegal situation.

So, how do we deal with assassins?

theunwantedbeing
08-04-2009, 08:04
A non-unbreakable character cannot join an unbreakable unit.
As per the rules for being unbreakable on page 79.

Kourans rule "the black guard unit including him is unbreakable" means that the assasin is part of the unit, so gets to be unbreakable and can reveal himself whenever he pleases and not suffer any ill effects. (like being bumped out of the unit or not being able to reveal himself untill kouran is killed and the unit isnt unbreakable anymore)

Gazak Blacktoof
08-04-2009, 08:33
As far as I know that means only the black guard are unbreakable, not any assassins who want to join them as well.

The angle you're approaching this from would basically make it the same as the banner of nagarythe "the unit containing the banner is unbreakable"

An assassin is no more a part of the unit than any other character. Kouran is always there first- assassins join the unit before the battle but the choice is made after the list is complete.

Either the banner and Kouran are analogous or else Unbreakable is essentially a special rule for the unit in the same way as for a unit like flagellants. I don't think there's a third way.

Jyrki
08-04-2009, 13:44
It seems like you didn't understand: I didn't give my personal opinion at first, just the way it should be played according to Games Workshop.
My personal opinion is different and there are a lot of good reasons to say otherwise but if it's meant to be played in a way, you play it like it's supposed to be played.

If I wrote the post, it was to help the community with an interesting information that was not available yet outside the French community. This information is the closest thing from an official Q&A that you can get. I play the banner of Nagarythe and I play Kouran so it was not a theoretical question.

There are Q&A from GW that I disagree with but until they are changed I apply them in my games.

Nicha11
08-04-2009, 13:49
so if i non unbreakable character cannot join an unbreakable unit, does that mean that a Slann cannot join a TG unit led by Chakkax?

Spirit
08-04-2009, 14:09
I Think the REAL question here is not "can a character join an unbreakable unit"

but rather "can an unbreakable unit join a character?" :)

Gazak Blacktoof
08-04-2009, 14:35
It seems like you didn't understand:

No, I understood, however as its in french and "unofficial" its unlikely to carry much weight on the forum or in a game.

Most people want a page reference or something they can hang a decision from, its difficult to do that when its a document they don't have access to.

The reason I wouldn't use it though is its contrary to all other similar situations and the other FAQ answers and so is likely to get forgotten. Its awkward not having a catchall solution. I prefer rules solutions to be neat or to be based on common sense, speculation on future events, particularly when that speculation isn't applied to other similar circumstances, doesn't really fall into either category.

I'm not having a go or anything, just playing devil's advocate.

rottahn
09-04-2009, 06:48
so if i non unbreakable character cannot join an unbreakable unit, does that mean that a Slann cannot join a TG unit led by Chakkax?

Oh, thats a good one. but if you have the slann join the unit first and THEN chakax joins you should be good.

nosferatu1001
09-04-2009, 11:27
The unit is not just unbreakable with Chakax in it, the Slann also has to be there. Just TG plus Chakax == not unbreakable. Unfortunately this is not the same situation as described above.

Jyrki
10-04-2009, 01:10
Most people want a page reference or something they can hang a decision from, its difficult to do that when its a document they don't have access to.
You're right. You can have access to the semi-official Q&A (with answers from Cavatore) here: (page 7)
http://forum.warhammer-forum.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=119

Someone from Warseer should ask Games Workshop-UK if what follows is 100% correct, just to have a confirmation in english:
You must avoid at all cost and at any time to have models that are "currently" Unbreakable (models being subjects to the rule "Unbreakable" at the time being) and models that are "currently" non-Unbreakable in the same unit.
- A non-Unbreakable character cannot join a unit including Kouran because he's non-Unbreakable, the unit is Unbreakable and Kouran only affects "the Black Guard unit" with his special rule (if it was written as "The unit including Kouran is Unbreakable", it would affect any character in it but it is not the case).
- An Unbreakable character cannot join a unit including Kouran because Kouran's death would mean that the unit would not be Unbreakable anymore but the character would still be Unbreakable and that situation is forbidden.
- A BSB with the Unbreakable banner (Banner of Nagarythe) cannot join a unit including Kouran because a spell (like The Law of Gold) could suppress the power of the banner and you'll end up with a non-Unbreakable character in an Unbreakable unit.
- A non-Unbreakable character can join a unit including a BSB with the Unbreakable banner because the banner would make him Unbreakable. If the banner loses its power, the unit and the character would both be non-Unbreakable.
- An Unbreakable character cannot join a unit including a BSB with the Unbreakable banner because a spell could suppress the power of the banner and you'll end up with an Unbreakable character in an non-Unbreakable unit.
This was written by me and is based on the Q&A and on direct answers from the head of the French Games Workshop translation Studio.

londo
22-08-2009, 11:33
Hi,
Dont you think guys that its terrible stupid that Malekith cannot join his own guard?

Condottiere
22-08-2009, 13:19
Maybe they blackballed him.

Cambion Daystar
24-08-2009, 07:20
Isn't this the same as that an Empire Warrior priest which makes himself unbreakable (prayer of sigmar) cannot join a unit of flagellants?
It says in the empire faq that he can't join because his "unbreakability" can be dispelled (same as with a banner that can be suppressed/destroyed), and then you would and up with a non-unbreakable character in an ubreakable unit. GW says it will make the universe collapse ;)

Ganymede
24-08-2009, 12:02
As gamers, it is paramount that we take all necessary precautions to prevent the destruction of the universe.

Put me down as not allowing the unbreakable BSB from joining Kouran's black guard.

EvC
24-08-2009, 14:45
Apparently, it is not the case with the rule Unbreakable according to the people from Games Workshop. You have to prevent any illegal situation.

This would mean that no character mounted on a monster could ever join a unit though, as the character could be killed and the monster become unbreakable- if only for the short period of time between then and the end of the phase...

Ganymede
24-08-2009, 21:12
This would mean that no character mounted on a monster could ever join a unit though, as the character could be killed and the monster become unbreakable- if only for the short period of time between then and the end of the phase...

I think this is a bit of a red herring. Remember that we already are already told that allowing monster riders to join units is ok, and have a procedure to follow when the rider is slain.

With unbreakable models, the situation is clearly different.

EvC
25-08-2009, 12:03
I don't think you actually read what I was replying to. I might refer to your post as a "non sequitur" or a "straw man" if I wanted to assign a neat term to it ;)

The statement I was talking about was that the player must always do whatever they can to prevent the possibility of an unbreakable model being within a unit. If you ever put a character on a monster in a unit, you have the possibility of the monster going unbreakable and therefore the illegal situation happens for the rest of that phase.

So either mounted monsters should never join units to prevent this possibility (and subsequent collapse of the universe), or the suggestion of preventing such a possibility is unworkable.

nosferatu1001
25-08-2009, 14:13
I would say the "the monster must be removed at the earliest oppurtunity" would be enough to stop the universe crashing with error 42 ;)

EvC
25-08-2009, 14:33
Yeah, but as per the FAQ that only happens at the end of the phase. When this happens in close combat this does actually mean you will have to resolve the results of the combat, and if the unbreakable monster in the unit is on the losing side, then kaboom ;)

nosferatu1001
25-08-2009, 16:23
reset from last succesful armour save?

Maybe you should roll the MR test in advance? If it doesn't become Unbreakable it could then join ;)

(to shamelessly steal from T10)