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Malice313
03-02-2009, 21:04
Is it just me who thinks that its odd that a Chosen Aspiring Champion has less Wargear options than all of his peers?

"You want a Plasm Pistol and a Power axe? Start praying to the gods buddy, 'cause this quarter master ain't coughing up!"

druchii lord narakh
03-02-2009, 21:13
thats chaos for you. hehehe. EMPEROR RULES>>> ALL ELSE SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!except Dark eldar there cool too.

Rydmend
03-02-2009, 21:34
But you can give him a las cannon and a lightning claw! or a heavy bolter and a powerfist! Because those combinations are practical!

but a heavy bolter and a power fist might look cool and we all know looking cool is better than practicality.

5Pointer
03-02-2009, 21:45
True, but you do get to crawl forward a bit before the fight to make use of those reduced weapon choices.

ehlijen
03-02-2009, 23:47
You may have less options, but the squad as a whole has far more. The guy who hogs all the gear regularly gets killed and all the goodies spread amongst the rest until someone else starts hogging...

Bunnahabhain
04-02-2009, 00:11
nope, not all of his peers

He gets power armour, S 8 Power fists, and all sorts of stuff. Plenty of Guard and Tau would kill for that....

Ravenheart
04-02-2009, 00:11
The champion can consider himself lucky, that some other fool is operating that Plasmagun. :skull:

Malice313
04-02-2009, 03:34
You may have less options, but the squad as a whole has far more. The guy who hogs all the gear regularly gets killed and all the goodies spread amongst the rest until someone else starts hogging...

...and people think its Tau who are the Space Commies.:D


nope, not all of his peers

He gets power armour, S 8 Power fists, and all sorts of stuff. Plenty of Guard and Tau would kill for that....

True, but by peers I meant every other Aspiring Champion.

Rioghan Murchadha
04-02-2009, 04:43
It's because there's a typo in the unit entry. It's supposed to read "Aspiring Chump" not Aspiring Champ.

Rydmend
04-02-2009, 05:08
it's because there's a typo in the unit entry. It's supposed to read "aspiring chump" not aspiring champ.

oh no you didn't

Devil Tree
04-02-2009, 06:01
Others have gotten worse deals when selling their souls to the Chaos Gods. Your Aspiring Champion should thank his lucky stars that he got what he did.

Less fortunate Aspiring Champions usually have their <censored> pulled off by their own <censored> and then have their <censored> twisted all the way down their <censored>. :eek:

Gensuke626
04-02-2009, 06:14
But isn't taking an aspiring Champ in a chosen unit the only way to get 5 OUtflanking Meltaguns in a Rhino?

retroanubis
04-02-2009, 06:49
But isn't taking an aspiring Champ in a chosen unit the only way to get 5 OUtflanking Meltaguns in a Rhino?

Six... Can't you also put a combi on that Rhino?

CbmH2xX
04-02-2009, 06:54
The Aspring champ usually is the one getting ripped apart to become our best friend... the GREATER DAEMON! So next time you wonder why think 100pts of pure PWNAGE.

Malice313
04-02-2009, 07:01
But isn't taking an aspiring Champ in a chosen unit the only way to get 5 OUtflanking Meltaguns in a Rhino?

Not sure?!?:confused: The Asp.C doesn't get any Wargear options. All other options don't seem conditional on the Asp.C even being present!

Gensuke626
04-02-2009, 07:12
Not sure?!?:confused: The Asp.C doesn't get any Wargear options. All other options don't seem conditional on the Asp.C even being present!

Ahh I was wrong. You can still get 5 meltas in a unit of chosen without the champ.

But if you look at how the entry is worded...In a normal Chaos Marine entry the champion is given his list of Wargear options and the other options say that a "Chaos Space Marine" can be given wargear.

In the Chosen entry it says that "Any Model" can be given the wargear options, so in reply to the Original poster, The Aspiring Champion of a Chosen unit does in fact get MANY more options than any other Aspiring champion in the codex...It's just that the only way he stands out in the squad is that he has an additional attack on his profile.

Then again, he's actually cheaper than an aspiring champ in a CSM unit anyway...if you look at the price of base model + upgrade...

willydstyle
04-02-2009, 07:21
I've got a beef with chosen because of their name. In the first 3rd ed chaos codex, the elite infiltrating unit was "Chaos Space Marine Veterans."

Then the 3.5 codex had the unit called "Chosen" which if you think about their name makes a lot more sense. They are the "Chosen of the Chaos Gods." IE they are the ultimate bad asses who are on their way to daemonhood. They have been "chosen" by the ruinous powers to further their nefarious deeds in the material universe.

So when the 4th ed codex came out, they were again relegated to being infiltrators with nicer wargear options.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those "3.5 codex was the only chaos codex ever" guys, I just think that their name doesn't fit their in-game representation any more. They should have gone back to simply being called "Chaos Space Marine Veterans."

ehlijen
04-02-2009, 07:49
Given that at the core of it 'chosen' is just a chaosy word for 'guy that's better than the others' and therefore somewhat synonymous to 'veteran' I don't see the big difference.

Malice313
04-02-2009, 12:10
Semantics aside I think that ultra tough guys they are not!:( A special rule of dubious worth and some extra Wargear does not Mega Cajones make.

Still, with the way the wind is blow I suppose we should thank our lucky stars Power Weapons still have special rules (we don't want to confuse the kiddies:rolleyes:)... apart from conferring a 4+ cover save of course...

Its late and I'm getting bitchy.:mad:

Edit

Actually; On reflection I guess I still have a nostalgic attachment to the age-ed notion that Chaos is primarily a few exceptionally strong willed/powerful individuals who lead a band of followers. Most editions have completely overlooked this, even in 2nd ed (the age of Hero-hammer) to a degree. The previous editions (3.5?) customisable rule sets (for almost every codex... that they did more than once) did allow for this to a degree, though it was not the norm to make use of it.

The current codex was lauded as a return to the old Chaos Renegades. It may bare the same moniker, but it is about as divorced from the original concept as you can get and, for me, Chosen are a classic example of this. It seems to be more an attempt at hammering a round rule set into a square tournament hole. No matter the cost to any other part of the hobby or ,heaven forbid, it enthusiasts. The tournament MUST BE OBEYED WITHOUT QUESTION! IT IS ALL ENCOMPASSING AND IRREPROACHABLE!! IT IS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA!!! BOW DOWN BEFORE ITS MAJESTY PEON, AND TREMBLE AT IT'S MIGHT!!!! FOR IT HAS ENDURED THE AGE OF LONG TEA BREAKS AND ETERNITY IS ITS DOMINION!!!!!




...I'm getting carried away again aren't I...

MrBigMr
04-02-2009, 12:24
Somehow I would think that it's the army commander who decides what dudes get promoted and what don't. It's not like a beam of darkness comes from a burning sky and goes "Grogthor, I, Khorne, promote thee. Thy are mine chosen." And commander Snugglepuss is like "Stupid Grogthor gets blessed before me... I'll show him. It's time for some friendly fire to happen."

I mean, just because the president gives you a medal for being a bad ass dude, does not mean the generals are gonna promote you for it. There's plenty of people with big medals who are privates. To me Chosen should be a unit of their own with daemonic gifts where as legion veterans should run the corporeal function. Or something. Just because Nurgle blesses you, doesn't mean you're automaticall a veteran in the eyes of every other 10 000 year old fighting machine.

Just my two eurocents.

The_Outsider
04-02-2009, 12:24
AC + PF + icon = godlike combination.

Malice313
04-02-2009, 12:55
Somehow I would think that it's the army commander who decides what dudes get promoted and what don't. It's not like a beam of darkness comes from a burning sky and goes "Grogthor, I, Khorne, promote thee. Thy are mine chosen." And commander Snugglepuss is like "Stupid Grogthor gets blessed before me... I'll show him. It's time for some friendly fire to happen."

I mean, just because the president gives you a medal for being a bad ass dude, does not mean the generals are gonna promote you for it. There's plenty of people with big medals who are privates. To me Chosen should be a unit of their own with daemonic gifts where as legion veterans should run the corporeal function. Or something. Just because Nurgle blesses you, doesn't mean you're automaticall a veteran in the eyes of every other 10 000 year old fighting machine.

Just my two eurocents.

Its a fair point I suppose, and one that sounds reasonable in place that is not rampant with frothing religious zealots of gods who can warp reality or tear it asunder.

In fighting and petty grievance is what made Chaos flawed and not all dominating despite of its power. I'm not really sure why it is that rigid hierarchy of a military machine... with spikey bitz... is the way it's portrayed in the modern setting, but I'm sure a half baked reason for it has been "paid homage" to or plainly and blatantly ripped off from elsewhere in some turgid fluff lifted from a high school kids fictional essay.


AC + PF + icon = godlike combination.

I've seen Avatars of god's picking bits of said AC out of the tread of its boots with a stick and a disgusted look on its face, but that's about as close to god like as they get really...

"Damn it! Why can the Dark Gods pick up after their followers."

MrBigMr
04-02-2009, 13:11
Its a fair point I suppose, and one that sounds reasonable in place that is not rampant with frothing religious zealots of gods who can warp reality or tear it asunder.
But there's a difference between the mad worshipers and the soldiers. I mean, no matter how fanatical the plebs were in the middle ages, the soldiers that stood in the frontlines were surely far more in touch with the realities that were happening around them. Not to forget that not all Chaos worshipers do it for the gods. Mostly they have their own agendas, such as the downfall of the Imperium, which might serve as an ammusement for the gods and that is why they grant them power to do it.

I mean, isn't that the whole point of Chaos: Me, me, me! What I want, that I like, what I feel, is what feeds the gods. So through serving myself, my own hopes, desires and anger, I fuel the gods. But naturally here in lies the problem, as the longer you stare into the abyss, the longer it stares back. It's a fine balance between your own wants and the wants of the gods. Once you go too far, they'll have you by the balls and will squeeze you dry of all emotion until death is all that there is left.

I mean, we all do it for ourselves, don't we? You don't do bad things because they're bad, but because they're defined as a sin and you'll go to hell for it, and you don't wanna go to hell, now do you?


But anyway, what was I on about? Oh, right, Chaos. It's all about controlling the masses. Chaos itself might be anarchy, but its worshipers can be of any walk of life and believe in what ever they want to believe in. For 10 000 years many legions have maintained their old ranks and chains of command, some even uphold order among their people. There's always someone at the top, and what ever he or she says, goes, no matter what the gods say. Naturally the newly chosen might feel upstart and challenge the commander for leadership, but who's gonna follow that jerk?

Etc. etc. You get the point, right?

Malice313
05-02-2009, 01:38
But there's a difference between the mad worshipers and the soldiers. I mean, no matter how fanatical the plebs were in the middle ages, the soldiers that stood in the frontlines were surely far more in touch with the realities that were happening around them. Not to forget that not all Chaos worshipers do it for the gods. Mostly they have their own agendas, such as the downfall of the Imperium, which might serve as an ammusement for the gods and that is why they grant them power to do it.

I mean, isn't that the whole point of Chaos: Me, me, me! What I want, that I like, what I feel, is what feeds the gods. So through serving myself, my own hopes, desires and anger, I fuel the gods. But naturally here in lies the problem, as the longer you stare into the abyss, the longer it stares back. It's a fine balance between your own wants and the wants of the gods. Once you go too far, they'll have you by the balls and will squeeze you dry of all emotion until death is all that there is left.

I mean, we all do it for ourselves, don't we? You don't do bad things because they're bad, but because they're defined as a sin and you'll go to hell for it, and you don't wanna go to hell, now do you?


But anyway, what was I on about? Oh, right, Chaos. It's all about controlling the masses. Chaos itself might be anarchy, but its worshipers can be of any walk of life and believe in what ever they want to believe in. For 10 000 years many legions have maintained their old ranks and chains of command, some even uphold order among their people. There's always someone at the top, and what ever he or she says, goes, no matter what the gods say. Naturally the newly chosen might feel upstart and challenge the commander for leadership, but who's gonna follow that jerk?

Etc. etc. You get the point, right?

I do get your point and its a good one too. I guess that the idea of Chaos has been changed over time to give credence to the idea that it is an on going menace of great magnitude and purpose rather than a tidal wave of insanity that might engulf the Imperium one day.

I guess I'm thinking of when mad worshippers of Chaos and soldiers was originally that the Chaos Champions were the insane zealots with direct connection to their gods who regularly got zapped by a dark bolt of energy, etc, and the soldiers were his retinue.

This hierarchy was even more particular to Chaos Renegades; the focus of the current codex.

I understand and agree with you about the snowball effect of Chaos, I just think that when you cover your armour in blasphemous runes, turn your back on everything you swore to uphold and cry "Blood for the blood god" in battle you've turned a major corner in life.

I also wonder why agents of ruthless power on the cusp of daemonic ascendency (as most high ranking Champions tend to be) are so concerned with matters of the material world.

Edit:

I've got some sleep since last post...:angel: Does it show?

willydstyle
05-02-2009, 01:51
I also wonder why agents of ruthless power on the cusp of daemonic ascendency (as most high ranking Champions tend to be) are so concerned with matters of the material world.

Because for some reason the Ruinous Powers judge their followers based on their deeds and villainous acts that are accomplished in the material world. Since they want to affect what happens in real-space, they have to do it via the proxy of their champions and "chosen" warriors.

MrBigMr
05-02-2009, 19:49
What the hell? Why was there a mad face at the top of my post? Am I being punk'd?


But it's good to remember that the gods don't always promote fairly. They themselves (barring (un)natural mutations that happen in time) grant gifts not to those that deserve it, but to those they know will serve their purpose much better and also to stir things up a bit. Promoting a lowly warrior over a champion of 10 000 battles, is sure to shuffle the deck a bit and only the gods see the possible good this might have.

Sanctjud
05-02-2009, 21:17
There's little point to the champion.

There's only 2 instances taht they are useful.

Greater Daemon Summoning.
And
Increasing the attacks on a fist or double claws.

Otherwise, don't bother, just treat all of them as experienced members of the 'we are sneaky sneaky power armor dudes'...GW takes the cool stuff away, we deal with it, not much else we can do...

My 7 Cents.

Grubnar
05-02-2009, 22:19
I just think that when you cover your armour in blasphemous runes, turn your back on everything you swore to uphold and cry "Blood for the blood god" in battle you've turned a major corner in life.

Im so quoting that! :evilgrin:

Malice313
06-02-2009, 02:38
What the hell? Why was there a mad face at the top of my post? Am I being punk'd?


But it's good to remember that the gods don't always promote fairly. They themselves (barring (un)natural mutations that happen in time) grant gifts not to those that deserve it, but to those they know will serve their purpose much better and also to stir things up a bit. Promoting a lowly warrior over a champion of 10 000 battles, is sure to shuffle the deck a bit and only the gods see the possible good this might have.

I thought the "mad face" was a bit odd, as the rest of the post seemed pretty mellow.

As for the gods promoting, back in the days of yore its was basically a random thing, with whimsical if indeed any thought was given to rewards on behalf of the gods.


Greater Daemon Summoning.
And
Increasing the attacks on a fist or double claws.

Given the flaccid nature of generic Daemons, possession is a bit of a waste...:eyebrows:


Im so quoting that! :evilgrin:

Always nice to be appreciated.

Gensuke626
06-02-2009, 03:31
Given the flaccid nature of generic Daemons, possession is a bit of a waste...:eyebrows:





A bit off topic, but I find Summoned Lesser demons to be superior to Any of the God Specific demons simply because they can charge from a Deep Strike.

Altavoz
06-02-2009, 03:53
but a heavy bolter and a power fist might look cool and we all know looking cool is better than practicality.
QFT. This is the underlying principle behind every female armor set created in almost every game ever!

Malice313
06-02-2009, 08:46
QFT. This is the underlying principle behind every female armor set created in almost every game ever!

Come on!:mad: Cleavage is almost impossible to hit past breasts that large!!!:D