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Justice And Rule
01-05-2005, 21:51
No point in making rules for something we don't have an archetype for. I'd just like to hear a lot of discussion on some of the topics below:

The H'rud: A look at the physical aspects of the H'rud.
Home World: A look at the original world that the H'rud inhabited and some of their history.
First Contact: The first Imperial Sighting of this engimatic race.
Combat Capabilities: Fighting tactics, military formations, and other things.
Technology: Their level of technology and what it comprises of.
Social Structure: The politics and motivations of the H'rud.

And yes, these topics are blantantly lifted from the Tau article.

TheSonOfAbbadon
01-05-2005, 23:14
The H'rud: The H'rud are rat people, the 40k version of Skaven, they wear dark cloaks and have a loving for plasma weaponry.

Home World: Well, they were apparently exterminated in the great crusade, but aparently they don't keep a good record of their history.

First Contact: Sometime in the great crusade, on worlds which were urbanised but in a state of decay. They often enslaved human populations.

Combat Capabilities: They are a stealthy race who use hit and run tactics, targeting ammunition and vital food/water stores. They keep to the shadows and have a good shooting ability, hence how when I made rules for their basic infantry gun they have a range of 30" and are assault [you can't move it to the rules section for 30" and assault! :P ]

Technology: Pretty much on-par with the imperium, more powerful [yet more dangerous] plasma technology. I have them as a lightly armoured yet heavily armed race who prefer attack to defence, despite this they usually use strong tanks to sheild heavily armed units while the tank also lets loose with its own guns.

Social Structure: I think H'rud on different planets would be mostly isolated from each other and therefore each planet would have a different clan of H'rud. I would think, now that the galaxy is ravaged by war, it's the army that rules them [in the world of 40k, who doesn't have the military ruling them?
Tau are commanded by their Etherals, which are pretty much equivelant to warlords.
Imperium is commanded by the inquisition/space marines/imperial guard.
Chaos is aaaaalllllll military.
Same goes for Necrons.
Eldar is mostly military and are ruled by their seers.
Kroot, well dang, Kroot are an exception.
Orks are all military apart from eatin' squigs and snotlings.]

I think they would have been driven underground, so instead of regular cities, they have vast underground cities which are ever expanding as they mine deeper. They would probably be ruled by a clan leader, who then has co-leaders for different underground-cities, who then have different Verminlords for different parts of the city who then rule a small army [about 50 men, maybe 100 for *******' huge cities, maybe as low as 10 for teeny cities]. For the bigger ones, my guess would be that a few of them would be veterans, and they would have about 1 or 2 strong tanks, and about 5 weakish tanks. But the teeny 10-man armies would either:
A: Be killed alot by gangland shootings so they would all have to be replaced often and all be very very nooby and have about 1 weakish tank.
B: Easily suppress gangs as they only control a very small area and therefore be veterans with a couple of weakish or 1 mediocre tanks.

These small armies would act as police for the time they aren't fighting and would live in the area they control with their families, and in families the women are apparently kind of dumb, so the men have power over them.

worldshatterer
02-05-2005, 01:07
Right, my thoughts on the matter....

First things first, the parallels between H'rud and Skaven must be a kept to a minimum[ie. both subterranean, both based on rats], as GW have repeatedly stated they're not keen on doing "fantasy in space", hence the death of squats and the ever decreasing support for Eldar and Orks [I might just be making this second part up!].

Secondly I'd like to see some genuinely different ideas to the other 40k races . They live out of phase with the rest of the universe for Christ sakes! Big influences on my interpretations of the H'rud include the Syntha from Void [underground termite cities] and the Ratkin tribe book for werewolf the apocalypse .

The H'rud:Humanoid Ratlike Underground Dwellers???? The average H'rud is a humanoid being between 4 and 5ft tall[tau sized] . Alive it is very difficult to distinguish any discerning features, by the nature of the temporal distortion that surrounds them. H'rud appear blurred and distorted to viewers from our time stream [think the drakh from Babylon 5]. Dead they bear remarkable resemblance to the abhuman genus Homo variatus [beastmen], once their raiment of war is stripped from them .

Home World:Unknown, possibly located in the distant past or far future, it is uncertain as to whether the H'rud themselves know where they come from . H'rud refer to themselves as being on a great migration, the significance of this is unknown .Their base of operations [a series of heavily shielded installations on the moons of a gas giant] during the short lived H'rud empire is long since destroyed during the great crusade . Today they live in the spaces abandoned as to inhospitable by other races . Worlds destroyed by exterminatus, harvested by tyranids, space hulks, moons and asteroids all make ideal environments for H'rud . They live underground for a mixture of reasons . They favour worlds with no breathable atmosphere, so it is far easier to set up operations underground, and provide breathable air to a series of caves, than to erect highly fragile pressure domes on the surface . On the worlds where H'rud presence is not so welcome dwelling beneath the surface aids in the avoidance of other races. H'rud are nomadic and will shift seemingly at random from world to world, often re-inhabitng warrens left by other H'rud nations .

First Contact:Like most races they were encountered during the great crusade . During the intense warp storms of the age of strife the H'rud had managed to establish an empire amongst the former worlds of man . This was achieved by 2 simple factors . The H'rud are born galactic nomads, the loss of warp travel as a an effective medium merely slowed them down, rather than bringing them to a halt . This way of life has left them mentally capable of enduring centuries of space flight, and hazarding the risks of "hitching" rides on space hulks . Secondly, a few of their number are gifted with the ability of genetic memory . Simply put they have the memories of all their ancestors . They never loose tech, and can launch a sustained effort or complex plan that will take many generations to reach fruition, without loosing relevant knowledge . When slanesh was born and the warp storms ended the H'rud were already engaged in the business of empire and space travel . When encountered by the imperium on resource rich worlds, or lording it up over human slave populations they were denounced as a xeno menace and eradicated as such. The H'rud would fight lengthily guerilla campaigns, harnessing their natural stealth and devastating biological weaponry the cost of fighting them would always be high .But their lack of a warp capable fleet meant that the imperium could bring overwhelming numbers to the fight ensuring eventual victory .

Technology:A hybrid of their own warp energy based tech and dark age of humanity scavengings . Their gift for memory has lead to efforts from the adeptus mechanius to capture one of their rememberers[the name of the gifted few with genetic memory] as they would be virtually a living STC . Notable battlefield tech includes tunnelers, virus bombs, vortex grenades and pre-age of strife plasma weaponry .The most remarkable of their technologies is in the warp power sources they use in their ships and weapons . H'rud psykers can channel raw chunks of the warp, opening breaches in real space . Through these breaches they draw psychic entities enlavers/souls/daemons etc. and bind them into technological devices . This is the main power source for H'rud tech, dark age human tech is powered by more conventional means, and their warrens supplied with geothermal much like a hive city .

Combat Capabilities:H'rud don't like fighting, they go out of their way to avoid other races who they regard as generally being war addicted savages . When the path of a H'rud migration leads them near the territories of other races however they view it wise to take precautions . H'rud will seek to establish listening posts and other such facilities deep beneath the surface of an inhabited world . This leads to the common imperial misconception that H'rud are a race of invaders seeking to undermine them from below . In fact the H'rud are buying themselves an insurance policy . They monitor the transmissions and military traffic of a world . Should it appear to be close to discovering the H'rud warrens where the bulk of their civilian population exists, then the H'rud will launch a campaign of distraction . They will launch surprise virus bomb attacks on population centres, and seek to tie up military forces in a lengthily guerilla campaign whilst the main body of H'rud evacuate . This is normally a death sentence for the H'rud involved, but accepted as necessary sacrifice .

H'rud forces therefore come in 2 main types the ones in their wars of diversion who are uniformly well equipped with an abundance of plasma and virus weaponry, capable of decimating entire populations, companies of space marines and regiments of imperial guard. The second variant are in the forces committed to the defence of warrens , who favour long range weaponry and infantry horde assaults. When the H'rud encounter the warriors of other races their eventual defeat is nearly always assured, it just a matter of how much and for how long they can make them bleed .

Social Structure:H'rud are a highly democratic people driven by a constant need to travel . Whilst a gifted view have the talents of remembers or binders[psykers] and their wisdom is often sought out, the H'rud lack a ruling caste of any sort . All issues are voted and argued upon by all members of a H'rud nation . This can lead to the kind of lengthily convoluted compromised decision making that would make the Emperor remember the fallacies of such heretical members of government .

H'rud are organised into Nations. A nation ideally possesses 13 rememberers, and 169 crafters, when a Nation grows to have more than this number of highly gifted individuals a new nation is formed . Each nations travels a circular migratory path across the galaxy that takes many thousands of years to complete . Nobody knows why, except it seem to be a desire designed into the very genes of the H'rud themselves .

Khaine's Messenger
02-05-2005, 09:44
The Hrud are, ultimately, breeders and feeders (perhaps the "original" mon-keigh). Their "females" are little more than baby factories, and the only thing they have that even approaches "family" is the idea of a clique, gang, or some other form of political brotherhood. These brotherhoods are usually formed as mutual pacts and assurances of a supply of food and a (relatively) safe place to sleep. To this end, resource management is the key factor of Hrud society and, as such, it is divided sharply into the ferociously competative haves and have-nots, either of whom would gladly devour or enslave the other to gain or keep exclusive access to sources of nutrition and power. The leaders of these groups are most often those most ruthless and ambitious, possessing a steellike resolve and ambition that would make an Imperial politician feel his gorge rise. They are not strictly "military" commanders, and would prefer to not fight given the chance (as fighting inherently danger's one's own life), thus placing a certain degree of circumspect military control in the hands of lackies more often than not; however, having eked their way up from the bottom, it is unlikely they would lack experience in that realm. Hrud once worshipped a pantheon of gods cast in their own image, but most Hrud have given up on the worship of any gods, as most Hrud leaders prefer to lead via cults of personality and discourage the active worship of the gods that the Hrud long ago felt had abandoned them when the Imperium gained the upper hand.

When Hrud society becomes too stable or ossified--usually, a situation in which food intake can sustain large populations, and the haves begin to outnumber the have-nots--the local population inevitably boils over and, if the world is co-habitated by the race of men, the act of suddenly requiring enormously vast amounts of "lebensraum" inevitably provokes swift and brutal retribution just as surely as discovery. Few Hrud are willing to allow their society to become so stable; while some Hrud societies grow so bold as to attack and enslave other races for the purposes of menial labor, this course of affairs, if prosecuted within any major sector, inevitably leads to ill effects.

There is no galaxy-spanning Hrud conspiracy to overthrow the race of Men; any such hope died long ago in the seemingly endless campaigns of genocide championed by that hideous and upright surface-dwelling race that led to the scattering of the Hrud to the winds of the cosmos. The Hrud who are aware of larger free Xenos empires such as the Tau more often flock to the banner of such dominions. Their capacity for space travel is limited and hectic--much as all the technologies in their tech-base--and consists primarily of cramped rockets and other vessels reminiscent of the early years of human space travel, such as generation ships. The Hrud are capable of superluminal travel, but ultimately it is limited much in the fashion that most nonhuman warp travellers are limited, which is to say that only short jumps of a few light years are feasible in order for the Hrud to navigate at all. Hrud also seem to crash-land their space vehicles upon the discovery of a habitable world. What little defense cract they proffer for any systems they come to dominate is almost laughably meek by the standards of the Imperium.

Hrud technology is often ramshackle and antiquated in appearance, but sturdy in build and relatively safe in design compared to the mechanations of the Ork. Most Hrud engineers are capable of constructing a generator that taps the very essense of the warp for power; although mechanical means of tapping this power have been found amongst the detritus of Hrud technology (nothing that any Imperial Tech Priest would dare attempt to reactivate even in controlled conditions), Hrud in a tight bind will use one of their race's many shadow-consumed kin (a subsect of the Hrud that apparently constitutes their own version of a psyker) to act as a wellspring, or use stolen Chaos relics (often to effects just as ill as an Imperial campaign of extermination) in their stead. Most Hrud technology is designed independantly of any central scholarly body, however; there is little homogeniety within Hrud science or technology beyond the basics of weaponsmithing, ship construction, housing, and power generation. Everything else is, by comparison, a tinker's toy or simply a scavenger's delight (as the Hrud are fond of taking what is not theirs and "improving" it).

Hrud warfare largely consists of aggressive defense, even during offensive actions. Due to their drive to survive, the Hrud have been led to utilize their weapons of mass destruction more often than other races; thankfully concepts such as thermonuclear detonations have not occured to most Hrud weapon designers; the largest explosive the Hrud are likely to use is a wall-breaching bomb. The Hrud concentrate mostly on weapons that are effective at seeping, creeping, clinging, and that will mostly be effective in the close quarters of tunnel fighting (in fact, many Hrud prefer the maxim that "a knife in the dark is worth a thousand swords at dawn"). Gas weapons (simple smokescreens or even nerve toxins or bio-agents) are not uncommon and nor are flamethrowers (usually utilizing some sort of "cling fire" or water-combustable compound), booby-traps of all descriptions, grenades, short range automatic weapons, breaching charges, knives (with the rare powered variant for the affluent or well-equipped), and the inevitable fusil, which is considered to be a low-end "marksman"'s weapon (of course, it is likely that the only long ranges these Hrud practice at are rare long stretches of straight tunnel). Hrud are also slightly notorious for combat stimms, although given their infamous preternatural speed and their sensory advantages compared to their most usual foes, it is not quite understood why.

Tank-like vehicles are few and far between, mostly inspired or scavenged during campaigns of eradication. When the Hrud can be drawn from their tunnels, they almost always choose similarly dense terrain (jungle, swamp, urban, mountainous) and prefer nocturnal assaults. The only weapons the Hrud usually have to deal with targets at range are, like tanks, mostly scavenged, bootlegged, or in a general state of dishonor to the machine spirits that once inhabited it. Devices much like the infamous "mole mortars" are occasionally encountered by Imperial ground forces, but they are few and far between.

The Hrud do not wear battle fatigues or armor in a human manner. However, their cloaks, while giving the appearance of being simply tattered urban camoflage, are actually about as protective as Imperial Guard flak armor (they are also chemically treated to be water-proof and fire-proof, in the hope that their own weapons will not harm them if they backfire, and lasgun rounds seem to interact rather oddly with the fabric most cloaks are made from). Some Hrud augment their cloaks with other forms of exotic armor and gadgetry (including the rare forcefield), but these rarely boost the overall effectiveness. Gask masks are common when biological and chemical agents are being used.

Hrud are (usually) utterly incapable of waging a convincing space war (although they make excellent boarding action specialists for pirate forces) and possess little to no direct equivalent to Titans, air support, or long-range fire support like Imperial armies, exceptional cases notwithstanding.

[/random musings]

Azhrahg
02-05-2005, 10:08
@worldshatterer: I really like your idea about the hrud. It will really make them stand out not only from the other 40k races, but also the skaven. I hope GW is watching and is capable of copy-paste.

Azhrahg.

malika
02-05-2005, 10:38
I think we should make a mix between Khaine's Messenger's and Worldshatterer's ideas, simply because they both sound so cool! Biological warfare, guerilla warfare...I want shadowlike suits...something similar to the Dark Eldar Mandrakes. Most Hrud guerillas fight in either small groups, couples or completely alone.

I also think these Hrud would use more terrorist like tactics, giving them a more nasty feel, sending out human slaves infected with virusses to heavily populated areas as a distraction, stuff like that.

jeroen84
02-05-2005, 12:59
After reading this.. Why don't you guys first gather all the 'official' data on the H'rud? Even how little it is, it should be used as the starting point..

Jeroen

malika
02-05-2005, 13:05
I think they sort of did that, all the official stuff there is:
-out of sync with normal time
-migrations
-homeworld purged by Imperium
-Iron Warriors attack Hrudian cathacombs...something with Eldar..not sure
-medical technology
-warp plasma
-fusil

worldshatterer
02-05-2005, 13:48
Cos we've already summed up the available data in another thread that got moved to rules development,http://www.portent.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1516&page=1&pp=10
and in my case the last H'rud thread in background . And i'm tired of endlessly repeating myself .

This thread is more for using our over active imaginations to fill in the gaps in the H'rud background .

Xisor
02-05-2005, 14:21
Does anyone have a useful conception of what 'Out of sync with normal time' actually means or implies in game/fluff terms.

If they are time travellers, there has to be something very important to show why the aren't able to simply travel back and destroy the Emperor before he was born...etc

Rather, it'd be nice to explain the 'problems' the Hrud have now as a result of their own machinations.

Back in the day, they could have been a normal civilised alien race, curious, inventive skilled and capable. Massive catastrophy, either temperoal or warp based, biological or otherwise so massively affects their entire species(ie say when they're all still on their homeworld) and manage to infect/affect every single one of them.

All of them could be 'part-warp' or something similar...

Xisor

worldshatterer
02-05-2005, 15:27
40k doesn't need another race infused with warp energy, the out of synch with normal time thing needs to be science based in my opinion . It might be how they can handle warp based tech with no risk of mutation or possesion, or it might simply be a mutation thats so useful that it spread throughout the entire species due to rapid breeding/evolution .

Another idea is that the Necrons are the masters of time manipulation, maybe their planet got hit with a necron war level weapon, in the war in heaven eternally placing them outside the normal timestream . It could also explain their obsession with migration and their need for secrecy due to racial paranoia enduced by early encounters with such a vastly superior race . My only problem with this is that it stinks of"if theres something mysterious in the background, then the necrons did it . However the Necrons are the only race i can think of who mess with time flows so theres a possible link .

I like nearly all of Khaine's Messenger's ideas, and see very little incompatibility with my own . My only serious problem is the idea of H'rud brotherhoods being led by ruthless ambitious types who generate cults of personality . This idea has been done to death in 40k it sounds too much like chaos warbands and Dark Eldar Kabals, the reason i wanted the H'rud to be democratic is that it would give them something distinctive from other races in their governance . I can't think of a single other race that 'does' democracy . And an egalitarian race crippled by paranoia and the need to vote on everything presents an interesting contrast to a xenophobic authoritarian imperium .

Xisor
03-05-2005, 01:58
Again, I agree. But: What *is* out of sync with the normal time? How does it work? Whats the implications? How 'out fo sync' are they? Do they have temporal technology? How can you lead a life 'in' time yet be 'outside' time?

I know the idea is nice, but I personally am having major problems getting my head around the implications. That said, Pete Haines did specify at somepoint on answer to a question concerning the possible 'niches' for new races words to the effect of "We haven't done a race that deals with time-travel" or something similar.

I wonder if GW could get the 'patent' (again?)on a nice 'The Last Great Time War' based on the Daleks vs the Timelords as spoke of in the new Dr Who....

It's beside the point though. I particularly like the idea of some sort of race that has a hidden agenda with limited ability to time travel and affect things. Perhaps even a 'running battle' thing that has a certain if somewhat epic scope. It's an odd pandoras box to open, but hell it'd be interesting to speculate on.

Xisor

jeroen84
03-05-2005, 02:21
I'd like to note and ask something.

Basically, out of sync of time means that they are fazing between their current time point I think. Simplest example would be that 'right now'(real time) they live 1 second in the past, 2 seconds (real time) later, they live at the normal time, and 4 seconds (real time) later, they live 1 second in the future.

If you think of the implications... you get a headache. x.x You would see a person 'flicker'. Now you see him, now you dont, now you see him but he came from your 2s future, which is his past, then you dont see him, etc etc.

Very bad headache. X.X It would also mean that if they had any control over their out of sync-yness.. they could duplicate themselves by skipping forwards and backwards in time....


This is in theory that their out of sync switches every now and then. Lets presume a H'rud ALWAYS lives 2 seconds(of your Point of Time) in the future... That means you will never be able to see him, cause he lives 2 seconds ahead of you. Now, if he lives 2 seconds in the past(of your Point of Time), he would always know what would happen to him.



Like I said.. big... headache.. ;)

Second note: There's no reason to believe Necrons ever did something with time. I doubt they would have anyway, since time control is linked to the Warp, and we all know the Necrons disliking warp stuff. xD
Also, like you said.. its not an answer to continue with GW's plan of making the Necrons into Fluff SuperGlueTM. :D


Question.. Is it really stated somewhere in official fluff that H'rud are rat people/skaven? I always like to think as far as possible from Warhammer in Space.

Jeroen

worldshatterer
03-05-2005, 10:13
I was thinking of the more traditional sci-fi variant of "out of phase" probably just a couple of mili-seconds, making them appear all blurry, but having little impact on the game .

As for time-travel, just say no, i watched too much star trek as a kid and hate time travel as a plot device, it leads to too many convenient solutions, or you asking the "why don't they just go back in time and stab the bad guy in the back as hes making a pompous speech?" question . I don't feel that GW designers would be much more capable of maturely handling time travel .

Time manipulation on the other hand is cool, it can have interesting in game effects slowing up and speeding up time could effect movement rates, initiative attacks etc . Neccrons do manipulate the time flow, it says so in their codex or i wouldn't have mentoned those horrible fluff raping tinmen . Its represented in their wargear section by the Chronometron[pg 14, bottom right], which has the following fluff discription-

The Necrons are the masters of space and time . The chronometron allows the necrons to act out of phase with the normal time flow, advancing normally while their opponents move in slow motion .
This also raises another interesting version of out of phase, where the H'rud experience time at a much higher rate than we do . This could be quite cool, with perhaps the Hrud regarding themselves as the "fast folk", and regarding the other races as too slow to ever match their temporal supereority .

TheSonOfAbbadon
03-05-2005, 17:47
We could have H'rud as seeing the world in more frames per second than most other animals, making them have quicker reactions and having the ability to see fast attacks coming.

Khaine's Messenger
03-05-2005, 19:35
And an egalitarian race crippled by paranoia and the need to vote on everything presents an interesting contrast to a xenophobic authoritarian imperium .

Actually...you could actually combine the two...authoritarianism and democracy, I mean. That is...the Hrud could prefer a form of "democracy" that, in practice, is more like the worst philosophical excesses of a "classical" democracy--literally, "mob" rule with the potential to be swayed by the passionate or demonizing rhetoric of demagogues and flitting by with the passions of the majority, but ultimately..."democracy." You could even wax at length about "who gets to speak" rituals, like holding a rock/conch, or something. But I would argue that their society would be stratified to some extent--egalitarian in the sense of "one Hrud, one vote," but really, the inherent squabbling would result in strife and unequal distributions of resources and the formation of exclusive "gangs."

As for out of sync...I've always thought of it as a sense of insubstantiality, as if not all parts of them exist at the same "time," but are still "connected." Their bits appear to phase in and out just fast enough to deceive the casual observer into seeing something "persistant" (as the inventor in HG Wells' Time Machine described the "fourth dimension") rather than a "solid" that doesn't all "exist" as a continuous whole at any one moment in time. In essense, they exist at a slightly different framerate (yes, yes, babbling pseudoscience) to everything else. This might mean that they are indeed time travellers, dimenson/universe hoppers, have mastered some sort of temporal technology, suffered a mishap thanks to such technology at the hands of eg the Necrons, or something else....but it all begs the question as to if they perceive "our" universe in the same way we perceive them, or even how they survive here.

I prefer the idea that they're cloaked in a warp-shadow, though. I like "spooky ratmen." :) If the warp is unfavorable, I can fall back on the other....

Edit: An easier way of going about it is to assume that the "out of sync" comment was based on how the Hrud perceive the passage of time. Not that they even "see" at a "higher framerate," but that, racially, their concept of time just doesn't fit with any human being's conceptional abilities as of those abilities circa the Alien Wars era (pre Age of Strife). Like, say, tense issues. Not that anything as simple as language would form such a barrier, as we have examples even of human languages varying the tenses like crazy (ref: the Meh'lindi short story in Deathwing)....

Easy E
06-05-2005, 03:17
Edit: An easier way of going about it is to assume that the "out of sync" comment was based on how the Hrud perceive the passage of time. Not that they even "see" at a "higher framerate," but that, racially, their concept of time just doesn't fit with any human being's conceptional abilities as of those abilities circa the Alien Wars era (pre Age of Strife). Like, say, tense issues. Not that anything as simple as language would form such a barrier, as we have examples even of human languages varying the tenses like crazy (ref: the Meh'lindi short story in Deathwing)....

This is a very interesting idea. It fits with their migratory nature, and the fact that they would have non-warp, primitive FTL starships. The fact that their migrations and transports are so slow going requires them to take a longer view of events and history.

I see the H'rud's life cycle to be relativley short. They base their identities not around the individual and what he accomplishes, but on what his family group accomplishes. Each H'rud is part of the larger "clan" like a finger is part of the body. A finger alone is not very useful, but a finger on a hand is, and a hand on a body is even more useful. The H'rud individual is not interested so much in what he himself accomplishes today, but how he benefits his clan benefits in the next century. This long view colors all of their interactions with the other races and makes them so enigmatic to outsiders and hence "out of synch with time" to Imperials.

Kensai X
06-05-2005, 04:40
My idea of "Out ofSync" would kinda be like as said earlier the Hrud phasing in and out of vision like for instance. A Guardsman sees the Hrud and to prevent discovery of the Warren has to kill the Guardsman. So the Hrud rushes forward with his knife and the Guardsman attempts to shoot him. The Hrud though is "skipping in time" another words changing between in the guardsman's perspective of the past and the future leaving after images of the Hrud. The Guardsman tries to hit the Hrud with his shots, but can't tell which ones which.

So I how can this really make Hrud powerful. Imagine (excuse me if this sounds like an Eshin rat) a Hrud is surroundded by a Squad of Guardsmen. The Hrud merely draws his sword and then suddenly disappears then reappears a fewa second later behind the guardsmen with his sword still drawn. He merely sheathes it and walks away. All the while the guarsman are getting hacked t pieces by the after images of the Hruds movements.

worldshatterer
06-05-2005, 11:57
Trouble is such an over the top explanation of the h'rud doesn't fit the fluff . The Imperium has regarded them as a pest rather than a menace since the great crusade where they were pretty much destroyed as a power player in the universe . Only sporadically are they encountered and then they are wiped out by the sledgehammer of the guard .

How does that mesh with a race that has such a mastery of temporal effects that it can make an indivdual into an army just by using their own time mastery to harness milisecond in the past and future versions of themselves ?

Azhrahg
09-05-2005, 07:45
A rather boring, but simple solution would be to say that the flickering in time gives them a 5+ invulnerable save, as bullets passes right through where they were a millisecond ago, and will be a millisecond from now. This could even be combinable with cover, to a 4+ invulnerable save - which would fit very nicely with the guerilla warfare.
As I don't see the hrud as heavily armoured fighters, this would give them some survivability, which will be needed to avoid the ratmen in space. After all the ideas Worldshatterer put forward, doesn't mix very well with a battleplan like some of the imperial guard generals, who basically throws 1000's of lifes away just to empty the enemy's ammo supplies.

Azhrahg.

worldshatterer
09-05-2005, 09:44
. After all the ideas Worldshatterer put forward, doesn't mix very well with a battleplan like some of the imperial guard generals, who basically throws 1000's of lifes away just to empty the enemy's ammo supplies.

Guerilla forces are normally triumphant if the enemy just tries to defeat them with pure brute force, which is what the guard are stereotyped as doing! When your main weapons are warp powered running out of ammo isn't really a problem .

If your talking about the H'rud dying in droves just like guardsmen on the battlefield, this also correct with my interpretation of the fluff . if they're pulled into the open battle and close range firefights they should take plenty of casualties, as their strength as a force is based on the ability to deny the enemy such oppurtunities . A fluff H'rud battle should be like a fluff marine battle-2000pts of them vs 500of the enemy, as the H'rud wipe out isolated positions and small units instead of directly engaging the enemies main forces.

Also, this is background not rules development-we've already had one h'rud thread moved from here to there cos people kept on wanting to talk rules .

Khaine's Messenger
09-05-2005, 20:00
Guerilla forces are normally triumphant if the enemy just tries to defeat them with pure brute force

Or, shall we say, "not enough" pure brute force. The Imperium does tend to have the political will to sanction "whatever means necessary" against insurgent activities (often ironically exacerbating those activities by their harsh actions, but there you go).


which is what the guard are stereotyped as doing!

Well, yes. Of course, the Guard also have their own guerillas and special forces, but yes, the stereotype is that huge firing line marching in step across no man's land, supported by Titans, clustered closer than an arm's length between each man in a dense block, off to give Johnny Xeno a licking he'll never forget...(cue artillery that vaporizes whole platoons at once).


When your main weapons are warp powered running out of ammo isn't really a problem .

Depends how they're put together, and how they are "warp powered".....that is, whatever circuit breaker or tether they use to siphon warp energy, it's likely that such a contrivance could "break" or even catastrophically fail, depending on circumstances. I personally would prefer we stay away from the common use of weapons that fail catastrophically, though, as the Hrud are still survivalists and would most likely tend to equip their normal soldiers with weapons that function reasonably well with fairly predictable results, all things considered....

TheSonOfAbbadon
09-05-2005, 20:27
The whole 'flickering' thing is already taken by the Harlies, they get a 4+ save for it. Although, for them it's a light distortion feild generator that does it, not some freaky techno-babble time alteration device made by the C'tan [C'tan should stop making things!] that now curses the entire H'rud races for no readily apparent reason.

EDIT: On the note of 'warp-powered guns', my interpretation only has 1 warp-powered gun [maybe I'll design some super powerful version for Epic tanks...] the Wyrdstone cannon, which a Psyker can use to channel his psychic energy into a beam of destruction. It could be broken by the psyker dying, or the wyrdstone being blasted out of place, or the ring of psychic channeling spikes that act as a barrel being blown off/in/apart.

worldshatterer
09-05-2005, 20:50
it doesn't get you past the warp fusil though which is mentioned in the official fluff .

IF you're gonna have warp powered weaponry then the fusil needs an explanation, i'm down with it being powered by harvested souls in a stormbringer/darkness books style way . As long as they've got a psyker to do the channeling those guns'll keep firing forever, they could even sacrifice they're own if they get desperate[which is what kept happening in harry turtledoves darkness books] .

Whilst the fusil is powered by souls, the more highpowered weaponry can be powered by bound daemons with resulting unreliability being the trade off-although it could bring a new meaning to the word daemon bomb- with h'rud turning captives into daemonhosts, bound in a circle- when the circles crossed the daemon is free to break loose . Or daemonic one shot weapons that the h'rud let the enemy deliberately overun before detonating . After all the h'rud rarely care about the worlds they're fighting on, its merely a distraction from the real action involved in evacuating the warrens .

TheSonOfAbbadon
09-05-2005, 20:55
I thought the Fusil was PLASMA-based?

worldshatterer
09-05-2005, 21:04
warp-plasma, fusil is a innacurate single shot weapon which needs to be reloaded after every shot-does about as much damage as a bolter but follows plasma rules . thats what it says in the inquisitor book!

TheSonOfAbbadon
09-05-2005, 21:07
Then how come people only ever quote the short line: 'The H'rud use a plasma-based weapon called a Fusil' and never this bigg section about warp-plasma, bein as weak as a bolter, following plasma rules and reloading after every shot [all guns need to reload after every shot!]?

Khaine's Messenger
09-05-2005, 21:18
i'm down with it being powered by harvested souls (...) bound daemons

Souls and daemons? Why? There's no need. The warp's full of energy free for the taking, no need for souls and daemons except, at the outside, the possibility that their ammo could get "tainted," or the shrill insistance that there's little in the warp other than souls and daemons.

As for the "one shot/needs to reload"....well, no. The Rld stat is underlined, which means it takes that number of turns to "recharge" between depletions of the weapon's ammo.

TheSonOfAbbadon
09-05-2005, 21:24
Hold on, there's already RULES for this gun?

Khaine's Messenger
09-05-2005, 21:30
Quite so. =][= Living Rulebook (http://www.specialist-games.com/inquisitor/assets/pdf/Livingrb/InqLRBpart1.pdf) (warning: PDF). See pg 64. Of course, that's for =][=....

TheSonOfAbbadon
09-05-2005, 21:33
It won't load, care to PM me the rules?

worldshatterer
09-05-2005, 21:45
there are rules for this gun in the inquisitor book, which you can download for free-i'm sure i've stated this multiple times in the other h'rud threads . only gave a comparison from what i can quickly make sense of the rules-the warp fusil appears to me to be a very weak weapon in comparison with most things, but perhaps i'm not well versed in inquisitor enough to be fully understanding it .

didn't realise it had a recharge as opposed to reload time-i haven't played enough inquisitor for that to sink in[or the gm didn't point it out to me] .

the warp as the 'sea of souls' is a fairly valid concept as far as i can see in the fluff. the fact that psyker's channel warp energy and when they do they attract daemons is an accepted part of 40k, if the h'rud channel psychic energy- then they will need some strategem to deal with the whole daemon thing . using them to power machines seems eminently practical as long as it is only done when the people who will suffer when it goes wrong are the enemy .

edit
i'm not sure if it'd do you much good, pming you the rules for just thee warp fusil as it only makes sense if you can compare it to other guns .

malika
09-05-2005, 22:06
The whole 'flickering' thing is already taken by the Harlies, they get a 4+ save for it. Although, for them it's a light distortion feild generator that does it, not some freaky techno-babble time alteration device made by the C'tan [C'tan should stop making things!] that now curses the entire H'rud races for no readily apparent reason.
Background discussion...no rules! Besides what you describe are two different things, light distortion and out of sync of time. And where did you get that the C'tan caused this?

Easy E
10-05-2005, 02:37
So it sounds like people are in love with the techno-bable for the "out of synch" with time thing. (Yawn) How mundane. What other options could we have?

1. It being cultural like the Eldar Path is much more interesting.

2. The "out of synch with time" is caused by Imperials misinterpreting the H'ruds' guerilla skills.

3. They could be considered "out of synch with time" is because the rest of the galaxy has passed them up. They aren't a great empire anymore. They are the lowest of the low now and can't come to grips with that fact.

Anything relating to time distortion or travel is incredibly prone to paradox and irreconcilable "what if's"... Secondly, the reliance on the warp to (insert miracle or bizarre effect here) has been done to death.

As someone else all ready mentioned. The H'rud aren't a threat. They are a pest. They are the galactic equivalent of street gangs. Sure to the people nearby they are dangerous, but they can't overthrow the national government! H'rud should be low-tech. They are dangerous because they are sneaky gitz, not because of some bizarre ability!

worldshatterer
10-05-2005, 04:02
where did the out of synch with time thing come from??i know its somewhere in the official fluff can anyone else remember? Its one of the hardest things to explain when thinking about the race as it seems a strange add-on to the otherwise simple concept of space ratmen .

40k doesn't really do cultural understanding on wide scale, if it sayss there out of synch with time then theres gonna be a techno-babble solution, thats just hte way it is .

Who said the c'tan did it-thats my guess,based on how lazy gw can be with fluff . we have a race thats out of synch with time, and a race who possess wargear that demonstrates their mastery over time and space and produces a time dilation effect[the exact quote is earlier in this thread]. I haven't heard of other races messing around with time mastery so i assume that there is some link between the two, however this is not stated anywhere in the official fluff afaik .

TheSonOfAbbadon
10-05-2005, 21:03
Well, it could be a light distortion field, not an out-of-sync-with-time thing, the imperium might have thought they were out-of-sync-with-time instead of just having a light distortion field.

Alternately, in my version I'm going to have it possible to have a 'Temple of the Horned Rat' army, which is created totally of rat monks, vermin preists etc. Rat monks being the 'stand in' for the basic infantry [Ratmen]. Rat monks are slightly psychic, and we *could* say that these rat monks used their weak powers to distort their image.

malika
10-05-2005, 23:07
Just an practically exact copy of Skaven in WFB :rolleyes:

I found the out of sync with time interesting, the ultimate guerilla warrior is how I would view them. Maybe ditch the whole rat thing, or at least to such a degree that you will not litarally see them as rats with guns. Werent they mentioned in Kill Team?

Khaine's Messenger
11-05-2005, 02:00
The Hrud in KT are described in the following manner:
~long, twitching snouts
~small, clawed hands (grasping drinks tightly)
~sitting in the darkest area (of the bar)
~swathed in rags (no surprise there)
~hints of tail motion under the table; Kage calls the motions "nervous" although I don't think much characterization can be drawn from that

Kage doesn't really ascribe any sort of metaphysical phenomenon to them, and nor does Oriel when he's prompted. But, =][= Oriel notes that they are "scavengers and tunnel-dwellers" and that "you'll find them all over the galaxy, though never in large numbers." He characterizes them, in his opinion, as parasites.

Easy E
11-05-2005, 02:56
Like Jawas.

Maybe these guys don't even deserve a codex of their own. They should just be a raider list like the Necron's started out as. This would let them develope overtime and still be useable.

I guess they needed a gimick to give them a hook and that's where this "out-of-synch with time" thing comes from.

malika
11-05-2005, 13:43
Perhaps they created some sort of time altering technology, however it was still experimental and it failed/got out of control, hence the Hrud are affected.

Easy E
17-05-2005, 04:44
Each army in 40K seems to have a niche, an area that they excel at. For (a broad) example, Tyranids are close combat and Tau are shooting. This leaves us the question of what niche exists that the H'rud could fill?

I feel they could fill a niche similar to the Catachan Jungle Fighters only less terrain specific. Catachans are very good at hit and run and overwhelming an opponent suddenly and melting away into the jungle. Hence their special ambush, traps, and spook rules.

The H'rud would be very good at hitting in one spot rapidly and then falling back. They should be elusive and somewhat frustrating to fight. They should put their opponents on edge by attacking when and where they are least expected. In short they should be very good at guerrilla tactics as they are the only viable tactics for a "weaker" force like the H'rud.

What other armies fit this theme?
Night Lords
Catachan Jungle Fighters
Blood Axe Orks

All of these are sub-codices. Most armies have forces that can do this, not an entire army focused on it. From this wargaming niche we should then develop outward.

Khaine's Messenger
17-05-2005, 06:01
Each army in 40K seems to have a niche, an area that they excel at.

Which, let's be honest, serves mainly to generate interest and foster the idea that things have to be "unique" to sell well, all of which led to things like absolute standardization of arms and equipment across the board, ironically enough, along with things like standardization and stereotyping of cultures and armies and on and on. Not a bad thing, I suppose, but still frustrating when everyone has to have their own style of boots, because it creates annoying book keeping issues as you have to invent reasons for the state of affairs.

But you are right. For this to work in 40k, we're probably going to have to work out from at least a theoretical "niche." That said, I would say that their niche is already rather bloated...Alpha Legion, Catachans (oh, and the Tanith, and more!), Kroot Mercenaries, etc. The only thing that would "set them apart" would probably be the heavy incorporation of the idea that they are "scavengers" to an extent that would make the Orks "green" (aheh) with envy. They already have their "themed" weapon--the warp-plasma fusil. Should that be expanded more broadly? Explained in terms of a niche?

The niche I forwarded in my first post to this thread was basically "tunnel fighters." Sadly, I can see how the game abstraction would essentially make this an untennable point until tunnel fighting is...well...introduced, adapted from Space Hulk, or, in general, differentiated somehow from jungle fighting (if such a differentiation can even be made in real life); I'm reminded of the "alternate death world" article I saw on the aus website a while back. Perhaps it might be best to design them (erring dangerously close to a rules dev suggestion) with Cityfight settings in mind?

Easy E
18-05-2005, 00:20
Which, let's be honest, serves mainly to generate interest and foster the idea that things have to be "unique" to sell well, all of which led to things like absolute standardization of arms and equipment across the board, ironically enough, along with things like standardization and stereotyping of cultures and armies and on and on. Not a bad thing, I suppose, but still frustrating when everyone has to have their own style of boots, because it creates annoying book keeping issues as you have to invent reasons for the state of affairs.

I agree with this point entirely. it makes the entire universe seem contrived. Logisitics must be a nightmare!


But you are right. For this to work in 40k, we're probably going to have to work out from at least a theoretical "niche." That said, I would say that their niche is already rather bloated...Alpha Legion, Catachans (oh, and the Tanith, and more!), Kroot Mercenaries, etc. The only thing that would "set them apart" would probably be the heavy incorporation of the idea that they are "scavengers" to an extent that would make the Orks "green" (aheh) with envy. They already have their "themed" weapon--the warp-plasma fusil. Should that be expanded more broadly? Explained in terms of a niche?

The armies you mentioned are only sub-codeii. Therefore their special rules, abilities, and equipment are limited to those from the main dex. This should be a dex where everything is geared for guerrilla operations, not just a few elements here and there.

The Warp Fusil would be a short ranged and powerful weapon. Therefore the H'rud would need to be sneaky to get up close and use it. The weapon would be a threat at short ranges, but easily avoided if fielded in open combat. Since I imagine H'rud are not very good at combat, they would relie on a short violent burst fire to eliminate there foe to avoid being charged. The they would melt away again.


The niche I forwarded in my first post to this thread was basically "tunnel fighters." Sadly, I can see how the game abstraction would essentially make this an untennable point until tunnel fighting is...well...introduced, adapted from Space Hulk, or, in general, differentiated somehow from jungle fighting (if such a differentiation can even be made in real life); I'm reminded of the "alternate death world" article I saw on the aus website a while back. Perhaps it might be best to design them (erring dangerously close to a rules dev suggestion) with Cityfight settings in mind?

Perhaps my posts are getting close to the rules side as well. I apologize. The idea of basing them around city fight is very intriguing. The problem would be the same one Catachan and Kroot Mercs face. No one will face them in the jungle, period. Tht is why their guerrilla tactics must be general.

Lastly, the H'rud are a minor race in 40K. However, they are desperate to survive. Hence their constant migrations to avoid the major powers. Their own weakness also led them to adopt this guerilla style of warfare.

P.S. Sorry if this is to close to rules and for any grammatical or spelling errors. I will edit if needed.

Khaine's Messenger
18-05-2005, 03:30
This should be a dex where everything is geared for guerrilla operations, not just a few elements here and there.

True. Bringing this back around to background discussion, however, what sort of society would this sort of perpetual guerilla warfare create? Would it be beneficial to fabricate a history for them that counterpoints their present state? Furthermore, does anyone have any more ideas on the topic the original poster asked for, such as things along the lines of society, leadership, etc.?


No one will face them in the jungle, period. Tht is why their guerrilla tactics must be general.

And of course from a hobbyist perspective, few people are willing to invest in that much terrain "just to make their army useful" (makes me wonder how many people play Drookian Fen Guard! :D ). So yes, I understand.

Easy E
18-05-2005, 05:50
Perhaps we can try and find some real world societies to base them on? I am thinking of the Sea Peoples that invaded Egypt and much of the Mediterranean in the (don't know the dates) BCE's. This sounds like a job for the INTERNET!

I also think it would be usefull to create a history as counter-point. A then vs. now concept. However, it would be nice to avoid the "we were once a great and all powerful civilization until we fell" cliche. The problem is what can we replace it with?

Azhrahg
19-05-2005, 07:24
I also think it would be usefull to create a history as counter-point. A then vs. now concept. However, it would be nice to avoid the "we were once a great and all powerful civilization until we fell" cliche. The problem is what can we replace it with?

It could easily be replaced with a " We were once proud and independendent, migrating through space according to our millinia old customs. However the powerfull/dreadfull/etc. Imperium has claimed many of the worlds of our migrating path, and killed many of our people. We cannot beat this enemy, yet we have to keep migrating, but each migration is now a perilous undertaking, and more lives are claimed by each migration.

Depending on their reproductive cycle and attitude to individual lives, the focus could be at the Imperium stopping important migration, so they are unable to attain the goal of the migrations - whatever it may be.

The inspiration is of course for a large part the native americans.

Azhrahg.

Easy E
20-05-2005, 03:44
That is a good point of inspiration. Would you care to elaborate it?

The Native American stereotype was primarily a proud warrior people. Do you see the H'rud in this role as well?

There was also a great deal of inter-tribe conflict, does this carryover to the H'rud?

Then we must also devise a reason for the H'rud migrations. Hmmmm?

Azhrahg
24-05-2005, 12:18
That is a good point of inspiration. Would you care to elaborate it?

The Native American stereotype was primarily a proud warrior people. Do you see the H'rud in this role as well?

There was also a great deal of inter-tribe conflict, does this carryover to the H'rud?

Then we must also devise a reason for the H'rud migrations. Hmmmm?

I don't see the Hrud as primarily a proud warrior people, but an almost peacefull migrating race, without much internal conflict. However once their ever-so-important migrations was hindered and even made impossible at some places, they had to fight to continue migrating. As for fighting techniques I agree with those already proposed about guerilla warfare from rather selfsacrificing individuals, who fight to keep the focus of the migration - ie. divertionary tactics by soldiers not really expecting to survive.

I am not sure exactly how selfsacrificing they should be though - I would say it depends much on their reproductive cycle, avarege life expectancy, and generally their view on death. If they tend to die before the age of 40, and breed quickly, I could easily see a group of middleaged fighters who are willing to die for the survival of the group.
I wouldn't however see them as fearless kamikaze like fighters, but brave soldiers with a very good cause, and a bit less fear of death than the average human. Even though they don't expect to survive the battle, they will sure as h*** try their best.

As for the reason for Hrud migration, I have no idea. I'm not even sure that it has to be revealed. You could easily make an interesting story about them following old migration paths because that is what their forfathers has always done, and that there are certain rituals that has to be performed at certain locations at certain times, to bring good fortune to the race.

Azhrahg.

worldshatterer
24-05-2005, 12:32
my idea for the reasoning behind the migration-

at some point in the distant past the h'rud homeworld was destroyed[perhaps by the necrons messing around with the flow of time, hence them being out of phase]. This was before they developed true warp drive, but with the ability to get aboard space hulks[like in the old ork fluff], or tauish hopskip drive .

This meant that the warpstorms during the era prior to the great crusade had little effect on them, and they were finally able to settle down once more and form an empire of sorts from isolated human worlds . Once the warpstorms relented, and the great crusade was launched they took the full brunt of humanities expansion, resulting in the death of their empire, and a return to the migratory way of life[as explained in my earlier more all encompasing post].

TheSonOfAbbadon
24-05-2005, 16:06
Hold on, since when were necrons masters of time?

malika
24-05-2005, 17:03
who says they are the masters of time?

worldshatterer
24-05-2005, 19:30
i think i want to kill someone.........

read the entire thread, on the second page i say this and quote the necron codex, -


I was thinking of the more traditional sci-fi variant of "out of phase" probably just a couple of mili-seconds, making them appear all blurry, but having little impact on the game .

As for time-travel, just say no, i watched too much star trek as a kid and hate time travel as a plot device, it leads to too many convenient solutions, or you asking the "why don't they just go back in time and stab the bad guy in the back as hes making a pompous speech?" question . I don't feel that GW designers would be much more capable of maturely handling time travel .

Time manipulation on the other hand is cool, it can have interesting in game effects slowing up and speeding up time could effect movement rates, initiative attacks etc . Neccrons do manipulate the time flow, it says so in their codex or i wouldn't have mentoned those horrible fluff raping tinmen . Its represented in their wargear section by the Chronometron[pg 14, bottom right], which has the following fluff discription-
The Necrons are the masters of space and time . The chronometron allows the necrons to act out of phase with the normal time flow, advancing normally while their opponents move in slow motion .

This also raises another interesting version of out of phase, where the H'rud experience time at a much higher rate than we do . This could be quite cool, with perhaps the Hrud regarding themselves as the "fast folk", and regarding the other races as too slow to ever match their temporal supereority .

i'm not too keen on the necrons being the masters of space and time myself[they are already far too powerful in the fluff], but its the only race i know of to have it mentioned in their official fluff.

malika
24-05-2005, 19:46
I like the idea that the Necrontyr experimented with time and timetravel and they failed with it, perhaps affecting the Hrud with the failings of their experiments.

TheSonOfAbbadon
24-05-2005, 21:16
I think WH40k has enough techno-babble already without this 'Necrons made H'rud go weird' stuff.

malika
24-05-2005, 21:17
how do you mean? :eyebrows:

worldshatterer
25-05-2005, 17:18
if a race has a scientific gimmick such as being out of phase its gonna need an explanation[both technological and historical] . Tecnobabble is just part of any sci-fi setting, if you don't like it, play fantasy .

malika
25-05-2005, 17:21
But do we want to involve the Necrons into the Hrud's "out of sync with time" thing? I mean there is no official source which claim the Necrons are responsible for this.

worldshatterer
25-05-2005, 17:30
no i personally wouldn't want the necrons to be involved, i'm just trying to put myself in a lazy GW writers shoes-so its either gonna be chaos mutation or the necrons did it .

When i look in the necron codex and find they have a piece of wargear that lets the put themselves out of phase, and this is the only reference i can think of to such things in this edition my mind naturally draws a link between the two .

Easy E
26-05-2005, 02:59
I am not sure exactly how selfsacrificing they should be though - I would say it depends much on their reproductive cycle, avarege life expectancy, and generally their view on death. If they tend to die before the age of 40, and breed quickly, I could easily see a group of middleaged fighters who are willing to die for the survival of the group.
I wouldn't however see them as fearless kamikaze like fighters, but brave soldiers with a very good cause, and a bit less fear of death than the average human. Even though they don't expect to survive the battle, they will sure as h*** try their best.

I agree. I don't think they gear up knowing they won't come back. They might expect it, but their is still that chance of survival and they will take it.

I like the idea that they migrate...because that is what we have always done. Time may move on, H'rud may die, Empires fall, but we must get to planet X by Time Z to perform ritual Y because THAT is how things are done and have always been done since time began! Again, the "out of synch with time" does not have to be technobabble, but cultural.

The society itself would be communal. They would not have a distinct family group. Their concept of property rights would also be communal or very limited. I feel that their economy would not have a monetary system.

I am not sure if they would have particular breeding castes or a class system? Both options do not feel right to me. However, their society must have some sort of structure.

Azhrahg
30-05-2005, 10:48
I (obviously) agree with everything you said except this:


Again, the "out of synch with time" does not have to be technobabble, but cultural.


According to A Galaxy of Damnation (http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer40000/galaxy-damnation/4/) at GW's homepage:
Races such as the noisome Hrud defy rational explanation entirely as they exhibit abilities never before seen by the xeno savants of the Imperium. These particular creatures seem to exist in a timeframe out of sync with the universe around them, and have proved exceptionally difficult to tackle as a result.

Although this doesn't say that technobabble is the only answer, it does imply that it is not only a cultural thing.

Azhrahg

Easy E
01-06-2005, 00:14
Thank you for the link. I think that does put the issue to rest. Back to the gimmick then, eh lads!

Xisor
01-06-2005, 01:45
Well, to say that it's a problem is one thing, to say it needs to be 'especially' represented in the game could be completely different. Consider this as a fluff 'guide'(not explanation):

The Hrud 'timeline' varies for each individual Hrud. One moment he is in M37 and has been for 20 years, a while later it's 999M40 and seconds after that he's back with his great great grandparents in M3.

Essentially this could mean that Hrud squad sizes 'fluctuate', one 'purchases' a squad of Hrud, paying for each one, generally they are uniform/homogenous in a kind of 'swarmy' manner.

Each turn, roll a D6.

1- Reduce by 2 Hrud
2- Reduce by 1 hrud
3-4 Do nothing
5- Increase by 1 Hrud
6- Increase by 2 Hrud


Essentially this represents that some Hrud join the unit, some disappear on a more or less 'irregular' basis. For characters it could be said that they are the more 'anchored' Hrud, or that they have a good knowledge/feel of how they progress through time.

Hrud 'migrations' could be 'density' migrations rather than physical a moves to b things. Over the course of 'human' timescale, a colony of Hrud could increase in size drastically then suddenly appear to 'up and leave', what essentially happens iis that alot or all of the hrud in that colony 'phase' out together, perhaps not to the same place/time from then, but it does mean that as you kill one Hrud, it may return, but as it's younger self and continue to fight.

Typically, this means that both elongated plot and individuality in hrud armies isn't useful. It's like giving credence to individual skeletons and zombies in a Vampire Counts fantasy army. Though each Hrud may lead a long and illustrious life with vibrant history, for the purposes of the game each 'hrud' is representative of a 'homogneous' Hrud, and not any specific Hrud in particular.

I'm unsure totally of how this'd work for a proper army and list, but I'm sure it'd be worth investigating.

For this purpose, we'd have to detail exactly how much control the Hrud 'have' over their movements in time, and also how they perceive the world around them. Do they actually interact with other cultures on a meaningful level, or do they, due to their tempeorary nature, simply sponge of them as much as possible before disappearing? How do they interact with each other? do they really have a society, or is it a essentially a big 'mess' if viewed from a non-hrud perspective? How far would the explanations go?

Personally I quite like this idea, it means they aren't just silly rat-like beings, but gives them a bit more than the simple skavenesqe implications we see so far muddled with an invulnerable save for being 'out of phase'. In fact, i really like the fluctuating unit/army size. Specialist units and gear could be used to influence how the fluctations progress.

Typically, a major feature of the army would be lower than normal leadership with little in the way of bypassing it(unlike Orks who have Waagh tests) to actually show how difficult it is to organise anything in any one particular time frame (ie a battle) with Hrud phasing in and out of existance left right and centre. Perhaps also having a cultured/innate/genetic/psychic sense of history, or an ability to pick up their surroundings(time-wise, ie 'get whats going on') to a limited degree when they appear so they are not completely lost.

Also, this approach would go nicely with everything we've heard about them before. It doesn't deal with every aspect of them, ut it doesn't disagree either...

Thoughts?

Xisor

TheSonOfAbbadon
01-06-2005, 11:27
No, that 'fluctuating squad' idea is almost as bad as the 'random weapons' idea.

Azhrahg
02-06-2005, 12:31
Sorry Xisor, but I'm not too keen on that idea either. For one thing it raises the question: Why don't they use their knowledge from the future to alter it? Bringing back sophisticated weapons from the future. Warn themselves about ambushes and ambush the ambushers etc.

Even if they don't have control over their timejumping, they would still be able to do it in a lot of cases, by sheer chance - holding on to a weapon as they shift, randomly ending up a couple of years before a lost battle you participated in 10 time jumps away etc.

Also I quite like the nomadic idea that has been raised earlier (by myself amongst others ;) )

I do however feel that the out of sync thing, should have some sort of game representation (I know we're not supposed to make ideas about how). The quote from GW clearly states that the out of sync makes them very difficult to deal with, so some special rule will be in order - however before we can do that, I guess we'll have to decide what it means...

Azhrahg.

malika
02-06-2005, 15:01
This might interest you:
http://www.merzok.com/necromunda/article.php3?id_article=133

Xisor
02-06-2005, 17:49
That I dislike too.

Going back to my idea with a mind open to change:

Perhaps the time jumping thing *is* possible, but that aspect of it should not be represented in the game.

As for 'why don't they make use of it?'. Perhaps thats what they are doing?

A different point would be to suggest that they simply *don't* make use of it, because they don't care. If they lead their lives 'separate' to the rest of the Galaxy, and in a comlpetely non-linear order, then perhaps they simply don't interact in the way we would imagine they do. I'm not sure I'd push them down the jokaero route, but they have the capability to do some pretty horrendous things with time(like the jokaero can with tech), but don't. They don't care for it, they don't view it as important.

I feel that could be 'too' alien though, and people/players simply wouldn't catch on to the feel, the route taken in that website is to me 'way' to Skaven, hence why I also dislike the route many people approach the demiurg with: Dwarfs in Space! :eek:

As a note, it had been proposed by some that the Demiurg had a mild potency for time-tech, not 'mastered' like the Necrons, but on a smaller scale with suitable restrictions to show why they don't rule the Galaxy...

A Hrud-Demiurg Time War?(in which both sides were decimated, Hrud reduced to scavengers and pests, the Demiurg left with no home, nomadic and roaming/combing the galaxy for resources)

Xisor

PS Actually, I like this Hrud-Demiurg interaction alot, almost more than my proposal for the Demiurg-Eldar relationship that when the Eldar 'fell' left the Demiurg up ***** creek without a paddle and beaten sideways by uncontrollable Orks in the Eldar induced power vacuum...

Brimstone
02-06-2005, 18:40
I said no rules. :mad:

This the thread's final warning, any more and it will be moved into the rules development forum.

CauCaSus
03-06-2005, 10:53
If the Hrud did not "care" about utilizing their "time-jump" or whatever it is, how would they be in conflict with anyone?

Surely they have interest in their own survival even if its only to continue the migration, otherwise they would have been extinguished millennia ago before they even became a sentient species.

I think the time-shifting should only be in the matter of seconds or milliseconds, otherwise there would be impossible for the Hrud to plan anything at all. How can you assign duties or missions to a Hrud if its likely to dissapear any second and maybe replaced with a Hrud from years away who was just going to fire its weapon at the Ork he was fighting?

However, shifting only few seconds or milliseconds would create an effect visually a bit like holofields, except the creature really IS changing distance and direction. Maybe something like the teleport mutant from X-men 2. That would surely be a pain to fight, and especially in close combat where a strike you thought you had deflected suddenly came from an different angle.

Xisor
03-06-2005, 15:35
Thats my point. The Hrud are alien enough that their society isn't structured as ours is. To us they seem unorganised and chaotic, but to them we seem a bit mundane...

My point: They are not like us. How could they be if they are shifting in time?

Xisor

Brimstone
03-06-2005, 19:49
From my point of view the H'rud live slightly out of phase with the rest of the known universe in a similar manner to quite a few Star Trek episodes I can think of.

This makes them very hard to deal with as their physical bodies are not completely present in our time period so weapons have less of an effect on them.

And here I break my own guidelines but this could be pretty easily covered in the rules by giving them a to hit modifier in both shooting and hth (like Toxic miasma in hth for the Tyranids).

Easy E
03-06-2005, 19:51
I think it is time for this thread to come up with a summary of the ideas presented by the most interested posters using the original thread starters format.


No point in making rules for something we don't have an archetype for. I'd just like to hear a lot of discussion on some of the topics below:

The H'rud: A look at the physical aspects of the H'rud.
Home World: A look at the original world that the H'rud inhabited and some of their history.
First Contact: The first Imperial Sighting of this engimatic race.
Combat Capabilities: Fighting tactics, military formations, and other things.
Technology: Their level of technology and what it comprises of.
Social Structure: The politics and motivations of the H'rud.

And yes, these topics are blantantly lifted from the Tau article.

Xisor
03-06-2005, 20:01
If there is no determined 'first contact' by the Imperium(if we go for a pre-heresy first contact then it's likely to be undetailed), could I suggest a first contact wiith the Tau, perhaps detailed from an Imperial PoV, or 'analysys' of the situation...

Xisor

Hellebore
05-06-2005, 16:48
My take on H'rud physiognomy.

The H'rud are a small bipedal species that exhibits characteristics in common with several groups of classic earth animals. Their small slight bodies are physcially weak but very limber, allowing them to squeeze through almost any space.

The body of a hrud is very thin and angular covered in a strange 'fur' covering.

They exhibit features of both mammals and reptiles, with this fur covering actually being flattened elongate scales. with such a small body and a large surface area these hairs keep the hrud's body temperature constant. Hrud metabolism is extremely fast such that they consume food quite quickly and have an incessant energy, never sitting still. Their bodies twitch and fidget continuusly due to the enormous energy expenditure produced by their metabolisms.

THey are originally a nightworld species and have developed enourmous round eyes that sit low on the sides of their head, in line with the jaw. These eyes are excellent for picking out predators, but the lack of binocular vision gives them poor depth perception. The flattened narrow skull ends in a pointed snout with long thin nostrils running half the length of the skull. Above the eyes on the crown are the ears. These are enormous, easily half the size of the skull itself, and are completely independently mobile. This combination of acute smell and hearing gives the hrud an amazing perception of their environment, something expected of a sentient race that evolved as the major prey item of the crotalids.

A unique part of this metabolism is similar to the crotalid ability to teleport from planet to planet through the warp, as hrud sometimes appear hazy and indistinct in times of heightened stress. It is theorised this ability appeared in the race to enable them to flee the predations of the much larger crotalid carnivores.

It has been observed that the frontal lobe of the hrud brain produces a heavy metal hormone that resonates with a strong warp/realspace connection, creating a distortion field around the hrud's body like an inverted gellar field on an imperial star ship, rather than making a field to keep the warp out, it keeps it within the hrud.

Most hrud do not manifest this very strongly, and when they do it simply gives them a hazy indistinct appearance as their incessant fidgeting appears to triple in speed. However there are some hrud that can manifest this at will, and even produce controlled fields that they can manipulate. Approximately 1in every 10 hrud have this heightened "dis-phase" and it is they that lead the hrud on their pangalactic migrations, known as the "Great Shift".

Hrud society is nominally democratic, in that the disphase vote for the best course of action for the warren as a whole, with warrens coming together in a synergus or meeting of world leaders.

Each of the disphase has a vote to be cast as he or she will, with the backing of their warren. Impassioned speeches and great displays of phase play can quite easily swing the vote, as all hrud greatly repsect phase art, harking back to the days of their ancestors where the greatest of the disphase were the ones that survived.

The masters of disphase (a survive-master-general ;) ) then lead their warrens on the great shift, a compulsary migration similar to that of their ancient predator the crotalid.

THis migration is a phsycological imperative of the hrud as a whole, as they see any form of stillness as death and decay. The most abhorent thing to a hrud is the lethargy, a condition that effects all hrud when they reach their dotage. After spending decades burning energy a furious rate their metabolism shuts down, and they lose all desire to move. Their incessant shifting ceases, and they become introspective.


When a hrud reaches this state it is customary to hold a celebration for the movement of life, declare the individual dead and continue the great shift without them. This is seen as the only way to respect the movement of life, by moving forward and taking the memories of their lost warrenbrother with them.

Hrud see other races as cursed, slow creatures that always look back on their past deeds instead of moving on. Very rarely hrud will interact with other races, as they do not move with the speed required of a true follower of the movement of life, but on occasion when something unexpected and rapid occurs several warren brothers may follow the calling of the movement and seek other routes to tred.


hows that?

Most of it is a bit sanctimonious and I forgot this is 40k and no race is good (not even the tau- who are REALLY evil) so had to hastily put a reason for disliking other races in there.


hellebore

Easy E
07-06-2005, 00:21
Nice! It sounds well thought out to me. I especially like the reference to RT Era Croatalids. Now I feel I should bustthe RT rulebook out and read up on the crotalid's teleporting and migrations.

Hellebore
07-06-2005, 08:28
Nice! It sounds well thought out to me. I especially like the reference to RT Era Croatalids. Now I feel I should bustthe RT rulebook out and read up on the crotalid's teleporting and migrations.

Cheers for the encouragement :) . I was writing it on the fly, as I hadn't really thought about the H'rud before and decided it would be cool to explore their biology and culture. I tend to write better on the spot then thinking about it for too long :p

I mentioned crotalids because they reappeared in the creature feature article in WD and because their ability to teleport instinctively sounded similar to the H'rud phase ability.

hellebore

Easy E
23-11-2005, 05:43
After some further review, thought, and threadmancy.. I really like Hellbore's take on the H'rud.

Some other thoughts:

I would posit that the H'rud can perceive a dimension that is not part of the current 40K cosmology a 5th dimension if you will. Why or how they can perceive this is unknown, but some specualte that they are in fact refugees from that dimension or some how linked to it. (For example, the excess dark matter from that dimension seeps into ours and forms the building blocks of the H'rud race. *This stuff is derived from some theories derived from string theory*)

In addition, their migration serves a more epic purpose. They migrate to different worlds in an attempt to thwart their nemesis from the alternate dimension known as "The Great Adversary". By being in certain places at specific times they play a role in holding the "Great Adversary" in check and sometimes pushing back its advances. Exactly what this "Great Adversary" can be is unclear, but it can only be perceived by the H'rud. (Think of Stephen King's Langoliers). This also makes the attitude of the other races that the H'rud are vermin more ironic as it is the 'vermin' who are protecting them from "The Great Adversary".

The Fusil uses energy leaking from the other dimension and gathered by the H'rud as it's power source. Hence the description by Imperial forces as warp-plasma. It actually has nothing to do with the Warp at all, it is just an Imperial misconception. This also leads to confusion about the level of H'rud tech in general.

The H'rud military forces are only a small part of the H'rud community and their role is to divert attackers away from the main body of the H'rud. If the H'rud migration is delayed or ceased the H'rud will lose to "the Great Adversary" so they are willing to do whatever it takes to keep their population centers whole. Due to the purpose of the H'rud's migrations, they can not leave their location until the designated time. Hence, they prefer spoiling attacks, unconventional warfare, and guerrilla attacks to distract or draw away opponents. However, they are not above using weapons of mass destruction in an emergency and to safeguard their plans.

Those are some ideas from me. I hope they make sense and C & C is appreciated.

snikch13
23-11-2005, 07:49
A unique part of this metabolism is similar to the crotalid ability to teleport from planet to planet through the warp, as hrud sometimes appear hazy and indistinct in times of heightened stress. It is theorised this ability appeared in the race to enable them to flee the predations of the much larger crotalid carnivores.


or perhaps part of the nomadic movements they have can be tied to the fact that they follow the crotalid as a food source (not unlike the plains indians and bison in north america)?

another thought that occurred to me is to have them exist in a time space that moves at a much faster rate than our time space. ie: 5 hours pass for them while 5 minutes pass for us. this could lead to some interesting fluff regarding the concept that individual hrud actually have extremely long life-spans, but appear to have very short ones to the normal universe. this would only be a feasable fluff aspect if you consider the "extremely misunderstood but very civilized" concept begun in the beginning of this thread by worldshatterer. it would also help in grounding the "out of phase with time" concept already in the fluff.

when considering social structure concepts for 40k you need to take everything to it's sterotypical extreme. for instance; the tau are the stereotypical 20th century liberal socialist republic bent on saving the world from itself (all done thru use of televised propaganda, haughty moral concepts, highly advanced technology, etc).
taking this concept that is the undertone of 40k storyline and applying it to a new race requires a moment of thought before attaching it to the race (imo). i really like worldshatter's idea of a liberal and democratic race, but following the theme of 40k, take this concept to its extreme, and you find a race that is not far from being anarcho capitalist in its social structure. this extremism does not require the loss of the underlying good and just aspects of this philosophy and social structure, it merely enlarges/magnifies some of it's most extreme elements (take the free state project link i have in my sig for instance :p ).

anyhow, this is a great thread with some awesome ideas guys, gw would be sorely mistaken to not browse this thread in its entirety. even if not used specifically for hrud, some very original and interesting hooks are available and up for grabs.

snikch13
23-11-2005, 08:04
I would posit that the H'rud can perceive a dimension that is not part of the current 40K cosmology a 5th dimension if you will. Why or how they can perceive this is unknown, but some specualte that they are in fact refugees from that dimension or some how linked to it. (For example, the excess dark matter from that dimension seeps into ours and forms the building blocks of the H'rud race. *This stuff is derived from some theories derived from string theory*)


interesting, a current theory in relation to the string theory is that there are actually something like 7 or 9 dimensions to normal space, but in our universe 4 to 6 of those dimensions are extremely stretched and/or very thin (thus very hard to percieve); while the normal 3 dimensions we as humans can percieve and interact with are quite large in regards to the whole of the pie. a race that can percieve and possibly even move into these other angles of dimension would seem to be slightly out of synch with normal time space.