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Feefait
04-02-2009, 04:57
Looking at lists and talking to people all I ever see for a lord is a Tzeentch caster. I understand the power, but is NOTHING else worthwhile?

A friend in our group just started WoC and I would be if Lm weren't around the corner and my primary army, Skaven weren't in the pipeline too.

I used to play chaos with an all slaaneshi army. If i started again i'd do the same and bust out my old minis. I just never see anything slaanesh and was wondering at the reason behind it.

MURPH
04-02-2009, 05:01
Nurgle is entirely viable and effective in mulitples, slaanesh unfortunately leaves you with half the amount of spells that function against ItP armies.

Tzeentch is just by far and away the most powerful all around.

Jericho
04-02-2009, 05:23
And Khorne Sorc Lords are pretty rare for a reason... ;)

Seriously though Slaanesh isn't too bad, especially if you give him the backup plan of a Third Eye of Tzeentch. Stealing the enemy's spells can be useful once in a while, against Demons, Orcs, Skaven, Elves for example (any of them!) it can be very effective. Being able to use Shield of Saphery, Drain Magic, Fury of the Forest, Ariel's Blessing, or any of the DE spells will be quite effective.

The armies where you won't get any real benefit from the Third Eye are Warrior Priest-heavy Empire armies (but Slaanesh will be okay against them so it's all good), Khemri, VC, magic-light Bretonnian armies, and of course Dwarfs. Out of this list, only VC and Khemri really leave you humped.

IMO the main reason for Tzeentch is the mark, and not the lore itself. Tzeentch has potential game-winner spells of course, but you have to roll them and you risk miscasting on the bucket of dice needed for Gateway. Not to mention the crappy spells like Call To Glory... would you rather have Pandemonium or CTG for your remain in play spell? I wonder... :p

Anyway it's the +1 to cast and the +1 to ward saves that give you a lot of flexibility, and it makes your dice go a little bit further. You can quite easily stack on some defensive items and make an extremely sick Tzeentch spellcaster who can take a fair amount of damage before going down.

Nurgle, as Jordan says, is a very solid lore as well. The benefits of the mark aren't always as useful as Tzeentch, but they are still pretty good at keeping you around a little longer. Buboes is fantastic (take that Ring of Hotek unit champ!!), Fleshy Abundance makes your units incredibly tough (and it's not RIP so you can cast in any order), Plague Squall is all right I guess, not the best spell but good range and decent against knights and whatnot, Cloying Quagmire is amazing against certain armies/units (Dwarfs, Treemen, etc.), Curse of the Leper is a great support spell, and of course Rot Glorious Rot is a very useful AOE spell with d6 Sd6 hits with no armor saves. Very random, but the no armor saves bit makes my Tzeentch wizards jealous.

Anyway there's some solid options out there, I'm not a huge fan of unmarked Sorc Lords, but there are ways to make non-Tzeentch characters perfectly valid. If it wasn't for the gimmicky 1/6 chance of vaporizing an entire unit, Tzeentch wouldn't be nearly as popular. The slightly less obvious reason for taking Tzeentch is the amazing utility you get out of the Disc of Tzeentch for 4 pts less than a stinking horse.

Angelust
04-02-2009, 07:50
I don't play TZ sorc lord, and I do ok.

One option is a TZ Daemon Prince w/ lvl 4 wiz lvl, tendrils, haemon, and fury of blood god (or diabolic splendor if going for terror bomb).

You can get off Gateway on 3 dice, 4 makes it almost certain. It's really not a cost effective spell in the least, but many players will direct an undue amount of movement shooting and defense because of it.

Otherwise, I find a Lord on a Dragon can always do some fun stuff...

bork da basher
04-02-2009, 07:58
its simply because a chaos lord isnt worth his points, two exalteds are a better option. a demon prince is IMO garbage and far too fragile to risk the 500pts or so he'll cost to be worth something. that leaves a sorcerer lord which is a good fighter aswell as an excellent mage. tzeentch is naturally the best option with +1 to cast, and the most destructive of the 3 chaos lores. nurgle and slaanesh sorcerers tend to suit level 2 sorcerers better.

grhino
04-02-2009, 08:08
There is no 1/6 chance of getting the entire unit vaporized with Infernal Gateway. The chances of doing that are far more slim... but still: I'm going to try and take out a Slann + TG bodyguard with it next week, with a Tzeench sorceror lord with Skull of Katam support and Conjoined Homuculus. How certain am I to get it off: anything but a miscast, anything but a miscast, anything but a miscast.... (now that I've said it, I just know it all going wrong)!

Angelust
04-02-2009, 08:15
Uh, don't ever depend on an 11 or 12 on IG for a strategy. Pit of SHades would be much better I think...

bork da basher
04-02-2009, 08:16
just take the puppet and you can hopefully avoid the worst of it if you do miscast. you can garentee the slaan will be paying the 50pts to reroll miscasts too, puppet + pandemonium will ruin a slaans picnic.

grhino
04-02-2009, 09:01
It's not like the whole tactic depends upon it. But it would be nice to pop the slann... you can always try, right? Infernal Gateway has a lot of destructive potential, so just bashing the unit would be nice too...

Unfortunately, I do not have access to the pit of shades unless the slann himself takes it (Third Eye on another sorceror).

I do not have the puppet in my army since I was not sure if the Slann had to roll on the Miscast-table when miscasting. Think it was like this in the older edition? Not sure though, hardly ever play against lizzies.

Makaber
04-02-2009, 22:15
its simply because a chaos lord isnt worth his points, two exalteds are a better option. a demon prince is IMO garbage and far too fragile to risk the 500pts or so he'll cost to be worth something. that leaves a sorcerer lord which is a good fighter aswell as an excellent mage. tzeentch is naturally the best option with +1 to cast, and the most destructive of the 3 chaos lores. nurgle and slaanesh sorcerers tend to suit level 2 sorcerers better.

Yeah well. The "two Exalteds" argument is rubbish, the same way two 300 kg charges of dynamite might be more than a 500 kg one, but it's no good if you need a 500 kg charge to break open the vault. Anyway, the Lords main strength is his Ld 9, which as far as Leadership goes, is a lot better than having Ld 8 twice. And if you look at the merits of the Lord, you get +1 WS, +1 Toughness, +1 Attack, and +1 Ld for 100 points, which is not a bad deal at all. Plus, of course, you get access to more magic items, which can either be used for army wide beneficial effects (Black Tounge for example), or the more expensive items, such as the very good Hellfire Sword.

The Daemon Prince is very underrated. Sure, it doesn't have the pure destructive potential needed to mow through regiments the same way a dragon mounted character does, but neither is it as expensive. It still packs enough movement to pose a serious enough threat that it can't merely be ignored, however. Combined with a good movement, it can be a very potent tool if used with a little cunning. Personally, I'll have a go at the Diabolic Splendour and Doom Totem combination.

Don't get me wrong, I still think the Sorcerer Lord is a very good option, I just don't think it is as much "the best" as everybody makes it out to be. Different armies and playing styles require different tools to work, and people shouldn't be as afraid to experient even if the Internet says they're "wrong".

Jericho
05-02-2009, 04:17
There is no 1/6 chance of getting the entire unit vaporized with Infernal Gateway. The chances of doing that are far more slim... but still: I'm going to try and take out a Slann + TG bodyguard with it next week, with a Tzeench sorceror lord with Skull of Katam support and Conjoined Homuculus. How certain am I to get it off: anything but a miscast, anything but a miscast, anything but a miscast.... (now that I've said it, I just know it all going wrong)!
Um... 6/36 times you roll 2d6+1 S2d6+1 hits you'll roll S11-13 which will auto-vaporize the entire unit plus all joined characters. If the unit is smaller than 10 wounds, there's a damn good chance of killing them simply on damage.

Anyway it's the chance of auto-killing entire units that messes with people's heads and might force them to make some mistakes. This is where the other parts of your army can overachieve and win you the game IMO.

Djekar
05-02-2009, 05:51
Jericho... it's just a straight 2d6 str 2d6 hits. There is no +1. That means 3/36 or 1/12.

;)

~Kisses