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Sedge
04-02-2009, 10:16
A question has been asked at my local group regarding stubborn troops using the generals leadership.

If the troops have Ld 8 and have to take a break test that they failed by 4. Rather than use there own Ld so passing on an 8 can they use the generals Ld of 10 and now pass on on a 6?

Obviously it can sometimes be tactically more advantagous to have troops run from combat rather than just staying there.

What do you all think?

Asmodiseus
04-02-2009, 10:27
You can either choose to use the units leadership unmodified, or use the generals leadership modified, Ill get you a page reference in a sec

Edit: Ok page 33 states that stubborn troops always use the leadership on their profile to take stubborn tests, so they may not use the generals leadership to take a stubborn test, Let me see if I can find the rule that states they may choose to instead use the generals leadership modified by CR results.

Nuada
04-02-2009, 10:30
Not sure if it says it in the rules, but i think you should have to use the highest Ld value. People used to do this with BSB's, before it said you must re-roll your break tests in 7th edition. The way i see it, your troops are trying to stay alive, not flee and be cut down by the enemy.

Actually i've just found a page reference ...... page 82 "All friendly units within 12" of the general always use the general's Ld value instead of their own when making any LD tests. Unless their own Ld is higher"

So in your example the Ld of the stubborn unit is higher

Asmodiseus
04-02-2009, 10:39
But it states on page 33 that

"During a Break Test, Stubborn units use the leadership value on their profile. They always ignore Break Test modifiers, regardless of how much they lost combat by."

I was almost postive that I knew how to play this but once I started reading the rules I'm not nearly as sure I am. Hopefully someone other more knowledgeable people can enlighten both of us.

Asmodiseus
04-02-2009, 10:42
Ah ha I knew I was right!

The page you want is page 78

"Stubborn troops benifit from the superior leadership of the armies general, or a character that joined their unit for all leadership based tests, but in a break test they always use their own unmodified leadership if it is higher than the characters leadership reduced by Break Test modifiers"

Nuada
04-02-2009, 10:43
I was almost postive that I knew how to play this but once I started reading the rules I'm not nearly as sure I am.

Welcome to the grey areas of Warhammer Fanasty Battle :p

Nuada
04-02-2009, 11:00
they always use their own unmodified leadership if it is higher than the characters leadership reduced by Break Test modifiers"

What are saying then? you said you could chose to use the Ld value of the stubborn unit or the character?
(i assume the general in the example is inside the unit, because his Ld is being modified from 10 to 6)

In the OP he wants to use the lowest value

..... that quote you've given says he has to use the stubborn units Ld because it's higher

Sedge
04-02-2009, 11:04
Thanks chaps. It actually seems that common sense has prevailed.

Asmodiseus
04-02-2009, 11:46
What are saying then? you said you could chose to use the Ld value of the stubborn unit or the character?
(i assume the general in the example is inside the unit, because his Ld is being modified from 10 to 6)

In the OP he wants to use the lowest value

..... that quote you've given says he has to use the stubborn units Ld because it's higher

No it doesnt matter if the general is inside the unit or not. Lets say for example that a unit of Stubborn Black Guard Lose combat by 4. Their leadership is 9. They are within 12" of the general even though the general is not within the unit. The general is a Dreadlord with leadership 10. So they have the option of taking a break test using their own stubborn leadership of 9, or using the generals non stubborn leadership of 6 (10Ldrship - 4CR) Obviously in this case you would use the Stubborn leadership of 9.

However a Stegadon with a Stubborn leadership of 6 that loses combat by 2 Would much rather use a Slann generals leadership of 7 (9LD - 2CR) rather than his 6 non modified one.

Hope that makes it clear.

Necromancy Black
04-02-2009, 11:54
Just a little summary to get things clear:

- According to the rules, you are always using the highest leadership availible for break tests
- For stubborn troops they will use their own unmodified leadership for break tests.
- If the army gneral is is 12", and the general's leadership, minus the difference in CR, is higher then the unmodified leadership of a stubborn unit, the general's leadership is used instead.


EDIT:: just a note on the first point above, it's not stated exclusively int he rules. It is however worded into just about all break test based rules that this is how it is played, your always using the highest leadership.

Condottiere
04-02-2009, 11:57
How's the rule when a stubborn character joins a non-stubborn unit?

Necromancy Black
04-02-2009, 11:59
How's the rule when a stubborn character joins a non-stubborn unit?

Unlike Immune to Pyshcology, a character does not lose the stubborn rule from joining a non-stubborn unit.

So as you'll be taking the test on the highest leadership, this will usually be the characters unmodified leadership as he's stuuborn. Essentially, the unit is basically stubborn as long as that character is with them.

EDIT:: and the reference is page number 78, under the sub-sub heading Stubborn, very last sentence on that page.

Actually had my PDF opened to that exact spot :p

Satan
04-02-2009, 12:02
I'm wondering about my wood elves. I have an Eternal Kindred Highborn who joins an eternal guard unit. Bascially this would mean that they DON'T get to use Ld 10 for Stubborn tests, correct?

And where'd you get the WFB rules in a PDF? No cheating I hope. ;)

Condottiere
04-02-2009, 12:02
Thanks, was too lazy to try and look it up. ;)

Necromancy Black
04-02-2009, 12:09
I'm wondering about my wood elves. I have an Eternal Kindred Highborn who joins an eternal guard unit. Bascially this would mean that they DON'T get to use Ld 10 for Stubborn tests, correct?

And where'd you get the WFB rules in a PDF? No cheating I hope. ;)

No idea which one of those is the stubborn unit but break it down like this:

You can never get better leadership to stubborn by the use of characters or general's leadership. It's always the unmodified leadership (OH ****!! What does doom and darkness do?!?!) of the stubborn unit that is used. Any other leadership is used if it's higher after CR is taken into account.

So if the eternal guard are the stubborn unit, then they only use their leadership for their stubborn rule. If the character is stubborn, then use his LD10 for his stubborn rule.

Also I have no idea where this PDF came from. Had it for a couple of years now.

Satan
04-02-2009, 12:16
Fair enough. The Eternal guard unit is of course the stubborn one. But aren't some abilities carried over from the unit to the character? Or am I thinking of a previous edition?

Not that I entertain any dreams that Stubborn would be carried over to the character, just wondering.

And I'm just messing about the pdf. ;)

Nuada
04-02-2009, 12:19
Hope that makes it clear.

Yeah that's what i said :) In your post #2 you said you could chose to use either the lowest or highest Ld value (after modifications) ,that's what i was referring to.

Necromancy Black
04-02-2009, 12:21
Nah, stubborn is not carried over from unit to character, but likewise a character won't loose stubborn from joining a non-stubborn unit.

What I alwasy ahted was being outnumbed by fear causes. Makes no difference if your stubborn cause you count as having failed the break test on any roll but snake eyes. Many a Lizardmen player can tell you the one time that's caused them to lose their Slann.

But not any more :evilgrin:

Satan
04-02-2009, 12:23
Ok,thanks for clearing that up. Sadly this also means that I've been playing wrong, with Stubborn LD 10 EG... time to revisit that army list methinks.

xragg
04-02-2009, 14:28
Eternal guard themselves are not stubborn. When led/joined by a highborn or noble, the unit becomes stubborn.

Necromancy Black
04-02-2009, 20:55
Eternal guard themselves are not stubborn. When led/joined by a highborn or noble, the unit becomes stubborn.

Makes no difference, just means they lose a certain rule if the character leaves :)

xragg
05-02-2009, 15:32
Makes no difference, just means they lose a certain rule if the character leaves :)

Actually it could. If an ability grants a unit stubborn, then the character in the unit would also gain the ability. This would allow the unit use the character's stubborn leadership. Although in this case, it is worded that the unit of eternal guard gains stubborn if led by... which would mean on the eternal guard themselves. If it was more generically worded, that the unit gains stubborn... with no "of eternal guard" phrase, every model in the unit would gain stubborn including characters while in the unit. This is in a similar fashion that the demonic banner, standard of chaos glory, makes all models (characters and rank/file) in its range stubborn.

Now, I can see a player giving his noble the eternal guard kinship, and thereby arguing that his character is an eternal guard inside a unit of eternal guard, and should have the stubborn rule also. I probally wouldnt make a big fuss over such a move, as I see people try to get away with so much worse in games/tournaments.

Braad
05-02-2009, 21:47
Okay, just read the whole bit. But I don't think anyone actually answered the actual question, or at least I couldn't distil it from the answer...: can a stubborn unit use the modified leadership of the general, even if it is lower than their own stubborn leadership, to gain a tactical advantage.

I can imagine, if you want a unit out of combat for some reason, that you want to do such a thing...

However, the rules say: always use their own unmodified leadership if its higher...
Answer to question: you can't do this. Always use the higher one.

Necromancy Black
06-02-2009, 02:31
Actually it could. If an ability grants a unit stubborn, then the character in the unit would also gain the ability. This would allow the unit use the character's stubborn leadership. Although in this case, it is worded that the unit of eternal guard gains stubborn if led by... which would mean on the eternal guard themselves. If it was more generically worded, that the unit gains stubborn... with no "of eternal guard" phrase, every model in the unit would gain stubborn including characters while in the unit. This is in a similar fashion that the demonic banner, standard of chaos glory, makes all models (characters and rank/file) in its range stubborn.

Yeah, only in cases were it would be stated that the entire unit and not the specific model type gain stubborn would they use the unmodified leadership of the joing chatarcter.

The old Temple Guard were worded the same, saying that teh Temple Guard gained Stubborn if joined by a Slann.

But this is a situation that will onyl come about with poor wording. The rules have thus far been clear enough if the entire unit or just certain models in teh uni gain stubborn. Hopefully now that Gav is not writing any more army books such poor wording will not appear.


Okay, just read the whole bit. But I don't think anyone actually answered the actual question, or at least I couldn't distil it from the answer...:


I answered it :p Actually it had been answered and I summarised it.