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silentarrow12
04-02-2009, 19:20
It certainly feels like the "good" armies are far weaker than the evil armies in 7th edition. Without contest Vamp counts, Daemons, and Dark Elves are dominating tournaments with varieties of lists. High Elves, Dwarfs, Empire and Brets are all mediocre or worse on average. It just sucks because I only like to play good armies (for whatever reason) but would also like to be competitive. Anyone else share my feelings of army in-balance in 7th edition?

EOT
04-02-2009, 19:25
Lizards are shaping up. They, i would say, are about as good as it gets when it comes to being good. What with being created to fight chaos and all.

Gaargod
04-02-2009, 19:26
And enter the Lizardmen.


Oh and by the way, Bretts are still a pretty evil point and click army, whilst some Empire lists (guns with Stanks) are competitive.

Admittedly, dwarves have only a couple of ways to play (gunline / anvil) and High Elves are still pansies, but that's life.

EOT
04-02-2009, 19:30
Actually i'd say that High Elves are the most competative of those other lists mentioned. Or at least the most balanced in terms of play.

scarletsquig
04-02-2009, 19:43
Wood elves can be brutal in the hands of someone who really knows how to use them.. they're not easy though.

silentarrow12
04-02-2009, 19:47
Wood elves can be brutal in the hands of someone who really knows how to use them.. they're not easy though.

I would actually be really curious about any successful wood elf strategies that players were coming up with to deal with the new armies.

Quetzl
04-02-2009, 19:48
Yeah the good armies have taken a bit of a hit with the last couple of books, of course as others have stated the Lizardmen are soon to bash some VC/DoC/DE heads in so the goodies have got a bit of a plus.

The good armies aren't all too bad however, High Elves & Woodies can be really effective when tailored. Empire have always got a chance with that War Alter and the Brets aren't too bad, depends what kind of lists you like to play I suppose.

Dwarfs are either, Gunline/Anvil or Epic Fail!

dannyfave
04-02-2009, 19:49
I belive that even though their book is dated, the Bretonnians can still be pretty competitive..

I don't know if you would consider woodelves a "good" army but I still consistantly win games with my tree huggers (and I rarely use forest spirits...actualy the only forest spirits I use often are wild riders).

Empire MSU knightly order army with a war altar and a few guns is very competitive aswell(with just a bit of infantry to back it up)

But I do see what you mean, but I think it is because most of the recently released books were "evil" armies.. and remember that dwarfs are still technicaly a 6th ed book.. I mean the last "good army" to be released was High elves wasn't it? and they can be competitive though very redundant due to very limited options...

Bac5665
04-02-2009, 19:59
Wood elves, through point denial - bait and flee, hide mages in woods - can beat most armies still. Its just that VC and DoC give WE such a hard time that its not even funny, even though its kinda karma-y.

As for the rest, Dwarves, Brets, empire are all solid middle armies; its just that Dwarves and Empire have pretty limited build options, and Brets have the same problem woodelves do. If you can't break it, and its not TK, Brets just cry.

isidril93
04-02-2009, 20:11
high elves are still a really competetive army (i cant say about the others)
quite frankly the bad guys outnumber the good guys so its not really fair (plus boc, skaven and o&g are not top tier either)

silentarrow12
04-02-2009, 20:33
Empire, High Elves, and Dwarfs are only competitive when they are fielded in certain ways that are incredibly cliche and popular. Among these armies are the gunline (dwarfs or empire)/ high elf full magic (with or without Teclis)/ stankathon/ Star Dragon and Thorek Ironbrow. these seem to be the only way the older good armies can compete still which is a problem in my opinion. Dannyfave was right on the mark when he mentioned the string of evil army releases.

I have not looked at the new Lizardmen book yet so I;m not sure as to what they are capable of. From the sounds of the above posts and rumors they are actually pretty good. Can anyone confirm or deny that the Lizardmen have a pretty decent new book? I heard that the new flavor of the month was a six stegadon army, which caused me to nearly vomit. Are they a one trick pony with this cheesy tactic?

MarcoPollo
04-02-2009, 20:36
Well BoC and Chaos dwarves and Ogres are "bad" armies and they suck too.

O&G'sRule
04-02-2009, 21:06
Good and bad is just a point of view, dwarfs and high elves are evil in the eyes of an orc.

Dokushin
04-02-2009, 21:20
Are the mortal races of man 'evil' in the eyes of a daemon? Does that make daemons and men on equal moral footing?

You can argue relativism all day, but when the sun sets there are things that are just wrong. In the Warhammer world, the forces of Chaos besiege the world, and the ones who fight it are the 'good' guys -- i.e. the ones wanting to save the world. The ones who embrace or assist it are the ones assisting to destroy all life -- the 'evil' ones.

Buckero0
04-02-2009, 21:36
Has it ever been any different? Last edition was pretty much the same. The "bad guys" were stronger armies, just as they are now. I'm not sure how many actual good armies there actually are.


Actually i'd say that High Elves are the most competative of those other lists mentioned. Or at least the most balanced in terms of play.

this is about the biggest joke I've ever heard. The High Elf book is easily one of the worst written army books ever to be published. How is Take a Star Dragon and win or take something else and suck it up balanced?

blackjack
04-02-2009, 21:37
the Lizardmen are soon to bash some VC/DoC/DE heads in so the goodies have got a bit of a plus.

What have you been smoking? Top VC/COD/DE builds have nothing to fear from new lizards.

Conotor
04-02-2009, 21:38
High elves still pwn dark elves, unless the dark elves take a bowline, but anyone can do that...

Conotor
04-02-2009, 21:40
Good and bad is just a point of view, dwarfs and high elves are evil in the eyes of an orc.

No... Orcs, Deamons, vamps ect slaughter civilians for sheer entertainment. That is evil. If you disagree, you need to be institutionalism.

nagash66
04-02-2009, 21:52
No... Orcs, Deamons, vamps ect slaughter civilians for sheer entertainment. That is evil. If you disagree, you need to be institutionalism.

You see from my point of view thats opresion so you should be locked away. dealt with so what can you do

Bac5665
04-02-2009, 21:57
VC definetly have to fear the new lizards. LM will destroy the VC magic phase, and the magic+Saurus are strong enough to deal with whats left. LM seems to be almost designed to scar the current VC list. Its Daemons and DE that I see giving the new lizards the most trouble.

Sclep
04-02-2009, 22:01
No... Orcs, Deamons, vamps ect slaughter civilians for sheer entertainment. That is evil. If you disagree, you need to be institutionalism.

I disagree. Might shouldn't, but in fact does, make right. I think there's a one in 10 chance you are a vegetarian or vegan, in which case thise does not apply to you specifically, but is relevant to society.

Animals are battery farmed, torured, selectively bred have their habitats destroyed and are driven to extinction by humans.

Now, I'm not suggesting that the death of an animal should be mourned like that of a human, or that a human's death is as meaningless as an animal's, but in this fictional world, with fictional typified races and factions, the 'evil' ones are often different to the point of comparing them and humans and real world humans and animals. Naturally, as humans, we sympathise with the fictional human factions, and identify mass slaughter, rightly so, as evil. However, it could be said that chaos warriors, vampires, orcs, et al, don't see it like that; it's no different to the animals in this real world.

Sclep

W0lf
04-02-2009, 22:02
Dark elves, Daemons, vamps
HE, WE, Bretts, Lizards
WoC, Skaven, empire, dwarfs
Boc, TK, Ogres, Orcs n gobbos

well the top and bottom 4 are evil then middle 2 are 6/8 good. Hardly a massive deal.

Though one thing ive always wondered is thus; why did the '7th books' (refering to daemons/vamps/de period) suddenly all get overpowered books? Wtf were the designers thinking. My only guess is they playtested them vs each other and little/nothing else.

O&G'sRule
04-02-2009, 22:12
No... Orcs, Deamons, vamps ect slaughter civilians for sheer entertainment. That is evil. If you disagree, you need to be institutionalism.

Heldenhammer has the sigmar led empire (future) army butchering Norsii camps, women and children included. Whats the difference? Stories are always written from the perceived "good" side too, they might well have spun things to suit their own agenda, They may be just as blood thirsty

jpf1982
04-02-2009, 22:20
Heldenhammer has the sigmar led empire (future) army butchering Norsii camps, women and children included. Whats the difference? Stories are always written from the perceived "good" side too, they might well have spun things to suit their own agenda, They may be just as blood thirsty

While I understand you two arguing about this; the point of which you bicker about should be in the fluff forum. :p

dannyfave
04-02-2009, 22:23
Wood elves, through point denial - bait and flee, hide mages in woods - can beat most armies still. Its just that VC and DoC give WE such a hard time that its not even funny, even though its kinda karma-y.

As for the rest, Dwarves, Brets, empire are all solid middle armies; its just that Dwarves and Empire have pretty limited build options, and Brets have the same problem woodelves do. If you can't break it, and its not TK, Brets just cry.

I have never had a problem against deamons with my woodelves (haven't played VC with my woodelves though) as the shooting and movement phases are where to hurt the deamons at and woodelves conquer both of those phases...

I can make multiple different lists with the Empire that are fairly effective (even staying away from the War altar and steamtank) And I belive they are one of the most versitile armies in the game..

As far as 6th ed goes... the Evil armies did not have the stronger books..

Dark elves? Forget it.. I used them in 6th and though I still won with them a lot ,they were the worst book out there

Hordes of chaos? Pah! they sucked in 6th ed. I would see a HOC army on the other side of the table and knew that I had already won..(especialy if they were khorne)

Ogre kingdoms? Though I don't consider them one of the evil armies nor one of the good armies... they were horrible from the get-go, unlike most armies which are good when they come out and then slowly lose their prestige

Skaven? ahh mid-level

Tomb kings? though another of the iffy "evil armies" now they were tough when they first came out... but due to people becoming more familliar with them tjhey soon became push-overs

Vampire counts? Not much experiance here so nothing realy to say

Beasts of chaos? Very hard for dwarfs to beat (that is my experiance with them as I was using dwarfs a lot when beasts first came out) but elves could rip them to pieces.

Orcs and goblins? I actualy liked them more in 6th , but now they have spider riders so it is hard to choose between the two (I know this has nothing to do with what I was talking about before) but they were a mid grade army.

So, in my opinion I do not think that the "Evil" armies had it better in 6th ed.
and like I said before, just wait for some more 7th ed "good" armies to arive
(although from what I have heard they are waiting untill 8th to release the woodelves and dwarfs again)

dannyfave
04-02-2009, 22:34
Dark elves, Daemons, vamps
HE, WE, Bretts, Lizards
WoC, Skaven, empire, dwarfs
Boc, TK, Ogres, Orcs n gobbos

well the top and bottom 4 are evil then middle 2 are 6/8 good. Hardly a massive deal.

Though one thing ive always wondered is thus; why did the '7th books' (refering to daemons/vamps/de period) suddenly all get overpowered books? Wtf were the designers thinking. My only guess is they playtested them vs each other and little/nothing else.


First off sorry about the double post...
I disagree that the Dark elves are overpowered.. I know the arguments of "well Hydras are only 175 points" and "The pendant-regenerating character is immpossible to kill".
Maybe my opinion is skued as I don't use hydras, but I have found the list to be very well balanced and have a lot of different ways to build the army.
I think the reason why people have such a hard time fighting against the Darkelves is because for years we had a horrible army and had to refine our tactics to the point to when we got a decent book we were the gods of the game;)

Neknoh
04-02-2009, 22:45
I have to agree, it must really suck to play the Good Guys these days seeing as the Good Guys are oft called Daemons of Cheese, Spampire Counts or Vader and his Deathstar per default even if not playing that kind of army.

... ...

... OOOOh, you meant the people percieved as MORALLY Good despite being a society that either promotes genoside of a foreign nation because those who are not peaceful fishermen or traders from those lands are warriors. Or a society steeped in and built on the opression of the peasantry to immense ammounts so to the level of an overexaggerated feudal society that there have only been three peasants raised to a favourable position in society (i.e. knighted and therefore nobillity.). Or an island society so fearful of other people knowing their shame that they did not attempt to steer off one of the greatest wars in Warhammer history which helped decimate the societies of two high standing cultures.

Yes, those good guys, now I get it :p


And no, I wouldn't say that it sucks big time, perhaps in super competitive environments, yes, but with friends who all aim to have a good time rather than WAAC, things aren't as bad.

Disciple of Caliban
04-02-2009, 22:49
I think the reason why people have such a hard time fighting against the Darkelves is because for years we had a horrible army and had to refine our tactics to the point to when we got a decent book we were the gods of the game;)

Sorry for going off topic, but i just love it when this quote appears. The greater majority of dark elf players wouldnt have been using the older book. And even if they did, tactics gained using it (MSU for the most part) would be of limited use in the way dark elf armies currently compete at tournament level (hydras, big blocks of black guard etc)

decker_cky
04-02-2009, 23:37
So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.
I think that about sums up this topic.

silentarrow12
04-02-2009, 23:45
I think that about sums up this topic.

LMAO, I suppose one could say that.

Condottiere
04-02-2009, 23:55
Good and bad is just a point of view, dwarfs and high elves are evil in the eyes of an orc.I doubt that Orcs understand the concept of Good and Evil; perhaps, Goblins do.

fluffstalker
05-02-2009, 00:14
I agree somewhat with the OP, I think that order armies can be competitive, but unfortunately through boring lists that are no fun to play as or play against.

High Elves: Star Dragon or Teclis.
Dwarfs: Anvil
Empire: Gunline
Brets: Point and Click Charge Army

Now a VC Army spamming IoN might seem really boring, but it actually fits in well with the fluff and VC can still play in different ways- Vhargulf or Black Coach, GG and Skelly horde or rush Knight army, or balanced. The key is that they can win with ALL of them, with decent tactics. An Empire army can likewise go gunline, horde or cavalry, but only one is really competitive. Others are playable, but put you at a disadvantage supposing players are equally skilled.

silentarrow12
05-02-2009, 01:02
At GT Baltimore it was just sad how many daemon, vamp count and dark elf players there were. The final tables were literally all Vampire Counts and Daemons with some Dark Elves. I was appalled at all of the high elf players at the last ranked tables at the end of round four. Games workshop has to relaize the discrepancies between the lists.

soots
05-02-2009, 01:07
...And you should see what theyve done with Warhammer Online.

Evil Destruction have so many advantages of the good guys Order.

heck the gates to the Chaos cities wont even open for Order lol

silentarrow12
05-02-2009, 01:11
Then there is the old argument that all the good players are playing evil because good is for little kids and noobs.

LaughinGremlin
05-02-2009, 02:10
Cannon are often the X-factors for dwarfs and humans.
Well, something has to kill the VC lord so that the army crumbles.

Which race is just as capable of being evil as well as being good?
Humans. So, let's say that the three human armies (yes, DoW) are "neutral." Orcs compete for resources just as humans do, and they devour their own just as humans do, so they are neutral too. Some races have grudges against one another (orcs and dwarfs), but that does not define evil.
Skaven fight for the scraps and devour their own, so they must be neutral...

...I see this pattern for most armies other than chaos, and undead.

Bretonnian Lord
05-02-2009, 02:32
High Elves are very competitive.

Wood Elves can be deadly if used by an experienced general.

Dwarves, Bretonnians, Empire are all solid.

Maybe not as competitive overall with the "evil" armies, but a they are in no way outclassed. A skilled general can still win with any of the above mentioned armies.

dooombot
05-02-2009, 02:32
Tomb Kings are no more evil than Humans.

Vampire's, yeah they're evil IMO.

The Tomb Kings had undeath thrust upon them, they didn't choose it for power or immortallity. They don't plan to overthrow the Empire like the VC's or rule the world or eradicate all living beings. They do what they did in life; war amongst themselves and fight for rulership of their lands, just like normal living humans do.

the fact that they are undead may be scary and frightening, but don't lump them in with the evil bunch because of it.


On a side note, I REALLY do not like this whole Order vs Disorder thing. WHF isn't 2 sides against each other, it's many factions just doing they're own thing with their own agendas. Theres no black / white, just shades of grey.

Hellebore
05-02-2009, 02:41
No... Orcs, Deamons, vamps ect slaughter civilians for sheer entertainment. That is evil. If you disagree, you need to be institutionalism.


Lol, excellently put rebuttal.:rolleyes:



Are the mortal races of man 'evil' in the eyes of a daemon? Does that make daemons and men on equal moral footing?

You can argue relativism all day, but when the sun sets there are things that are just wrong. In the Warhammer world, the forces of Chaos besiege the world, and the ones who fight it are the 'good' guys -- i.e. the ones wanting to save the world. The ones who embrace or assist it are the ones assisting to destroy all life -- the 'evil' ones.


You just contradicted yourself. There are NOT things that are just wrong BECAUSE of reletavism. Everything is from your perspective, which is based on your psychology. An orc has a completely different psychology where killing people isn't wrong, ever. Just because it conflects with your own beliefs does not make it objectively evil, because there is no such thing.

There are very few people on this planet that commit atrocities and think 'I'm totally an evil bad guy.' Hell, many of the them think they're doing the RIGHT thing.


Hellebore

RossS
05-02-2009, 03:19
Good and bad is just a point of view, dwarfs and high elves are evil in the eyes of an orc.

Difference of opinion does not mean there is not one correct opinion.

Desiring international peace and internal stability and prosperity (which are, with occasional lapses in judgement, the objectives of the High Elves, Wood Elves, Lizardmen, Dwarves, Empire and Brettonia) are objectively good.

Greenskins would like nothing less than eternal war; Dark Elves delight in inflicting genocide on their former kin, and terrorize less warlike species; Chaos worshippers wish to either convert or obliterate non-believers; Vampires seek to enslave the living, vibrant world around them and condemn it to stasis; The Skaven want to destroy all things non-Skaven so that they can get on with the important task of comic self-annihilation...I know of others who could be listed, but I suspect that you all get my point.

These species/races all prefer war to peace. Their aim is to further their wholly destructive and destabilizing agendas through violence and coercion. War (when not waged in self-defense) is an objective "bad." These bellicose species/races are then, it goes without saying, objective "baddies."

I'm sorry for the rant, but I find moral relativism to be a lazy and indefensible philosophical outlook.

And I don't the baddies are that powerful. I saw some Lizards in action and was very impressed, and my Orcs and Vampires are routinely mauled and mangled by the local High Elves.

Bento
05-02-2009, 03:49
On a side note, I REALLY do not like this whole Order vs Disorder thing. WHF isn't 2 sides against each other, it's many factions just doing they're own thing with their own agendas. Theres no black / white, just shades of grey.

I don't like the order/disorder split, but it makes for a good game in Warhammer Online.

Now, as to the there is no black and white business - I agree that not everything is black and white. But I've really seen nothing to convince me that everything is grey.

Re: relativism. I wish people would stop throwing it around willy-nilly. Unconsidered defenses of relativism are what give legitimate critiques of modernism a bad name in academia.

Bottom line is, if you honestly think that EVERYTHING is a point of view, then you have to grant that I honestly believe that not EVERYTHING is a point of view, and because I don't believe that, I don't have to believe you to be consistent with my own beliefs. You, on the other hand, have to agree to the rightness of my belief, because you're committed to relativism. Brute relativism is self defeating and shunts away good discourse.

If you want, you could make a reasoned, nuanced claim about the excesses of the Empire and Bretonnia, the arrogance of the Elves and Dwarfs, the uncaring aloofness of the Lizardmen, the potential for the Norse to be really good people, the legitimate struggle of the Greenskins for their ancestral territory that they were run off of by expansionist humans, and so on.

But if you're just going to sit there, plug your ears, close your eyes, and go 'rah rah relativism!' then you can't expect to be taken seriously.

EDIT: Also I should apologise for being grumpy, but I am, because I sat through three hours of people making really bad arguments about various things, and their bad arguments make for strawmen that are easy to knock down and, by association, make the good arguments for those things less plausible for people who disagree with those things in the first place.

Laughingmonk
05-02-2009, 03:53
I like Warhammer Online's "Order vs. Destruction" angle.

I would have to say that every side probably does very despicable things, provided that you look at it through the right lense.

As far as good being weak game wise, wait to see what the tide brings in. For all we know, next edition we'll all be whining about the dreaded and broken empire halberdier.


Difference of opinion does not mean there is not one correct opinion.

Desiring international peace and internal stability and prosperity (which are, with occasional lapses in judgement, the objectives of the High Elves, Wood Elves, Lizardmen, Dwarves, Empire and Brettonia) are objectively good.

Greenskins would like nothing less than eternal war; Dark Elves delight in inflicting genocide on their former kin, and terrorize less warlike species; Chaos worshippers wish to either convert or obliterate non-believers; Vampires seek to enslave the living, vibrant world around them and condemn it to stasis; The Skaven want to destroy all things non-Skaven so that they can get on with the important task of comic self-annihilation...I know of others who could be listed, but I suspect that you all get my point.

Empire and bretonnia have a long and well documented history of corruption and internal strife. I gaurantee you that if, for some reason, Empire got a chance to knock off brettonia or the high elves, and it was to their advantage, they would do it quickly and without hesitation.

I could say more, but this thread has gone off track enough as it is.

lcfr
05-02-2009, 05:00
I disagree. Might shouldn't, but in fact does, make right.

Two normative claims bound up in one great contradiction of a statement.

Dokushin
05-02-2009, 05:26
Lol, excellently put rebuttal.:rolleyes:

You just contradicted yourself. There are NOT things that are just wrong BECAUSE of reletavism. Everything is from your perspective, which is based on your psychology. An orc has a completely different psychology where killing people isn't wrong, ever. Just because it conflects with your own beliefs does not make it objectively evil, because there is no such thing.

There are very few people on this planet that commit atrocities and think 'I'm totally an evil bad guy.' Hell, many of the them think they're doing the RIGHT thing.

Hellebore

The problem with that is there are objectively good things in the world. We have to back way up and define good -- 'good' is something that is generally desirable, right? So what can we say all life generally desires?

Well, life is defined as self-providing, self-adapting, and self-sustaining. I.e. it learns, grows, and gives birth. These things, because they are what all life desires -- indeed, are what all life is defined by -- can be said to be objectively 'good.'

Therefore, since we can accept that 'evil' is that which opposes 'good', evil is what opposes these things.

Now we run into trouble here -- a wolf eats a rabbit. The rabbit cannot self-sustain, but the wolf is self-providing. Since we are speaking in absolutes, we cannot make the value judgment of whether the wolf or the rabbit is more important. However, that does not rule out all cases.

In other words, it is demonstrable that 'evil' is preventing life from learning, growing, or procreating -- from living -- with no other goal.

The needless slaughter of civilians is an excellent example. Aggression without goal is another. These are qualities associated explicitly in the Warhammer world with Chaos. The Daemons of Chaos want, simply, to wipe out life on the Warhammer planet. This is, by very simple definition, evil.

We can go farther, and say that opposing evil is good, by simple recognition of the fact that evil is more or less exactly 'not good'. The armies that oppose evil in this fashion are therefore good, closing our circle.

Any group is made of individuals; any machine is made of parts. Are all the actions of the empire/dwarves/high elves/lizardmen good? No, of course not. But they are, on balance, more good than the actions of the Chaos armies.

So many people are talking about the evil acts of the Empire, the Elves, the Lizardmen. ...but no one is talking about the good acts of the Daemons, the Warriors of Chaos. Because there aren't any. Do you see the difference, now?

dooombot
05-02-2009, 05:36
I don't like the order/disorder split, but it makes for a good game in Warhammer Online.

Now, as to the there is no black and white business - I agree that not everything is black and white. But I've really seen nothing to convince me that everything is grey.

Re: relativism. I wish people would stop throwing it around willy-nilly. Unconsidered defenses of relativism are what give legitimate critiques of modernism a bad name in academia.

Bottom line is, if you honestly think that EVERYTHING is a point of view, then you have to grant that I honestly believe that not EVERYTHING is a point of view, and because I don't believe that, I don't have to believe you to be consistent with my own beliefs. You, on the other hand, have to agree to the rightness of my belief, because you're committed to relativism. Brute relativism is self defeating and shunts away good discourse.

If you want, you could make a reasoned, nuanced claim about the excesses of the Empire and Bretonnia, the arrogance of the Elves and Dwarfs, the uncaring aloofness of the Lizardmen, the potential for the Norse to be really good people, the legitimate struggle of the Greenskins for their ancestral territory that they were run off of by expansionist humans, and so on.

But if you're just going to sit there, plug your ears, close your eyes, and go 'rah rah relativism!' then you can't expect to be taken seriously.

EDIT: Also I should apologise for being grumpy, but I am, because I sat through three hours of people making really bad arguments about various things, and their bad arguments make for strawmen that are easy to knock down and, by association, make the good arguments for those things less plausible for people who disagree with those things in the first place.


meh, i was just grumpy too and ranting.

I also don't think i really did justice to what i was trying to say with the white/black/grey remark. Its not really relativism i was going for, but solipsism. In other words, the Empire cares about...the Empire. The Dwarves care about...the Dwarves. Orcs care about...Orcs.
The way I've always viewed WHF, and one reason I've always liked it, is that unlike, lets say WoW, where there are the good guys who all work together to fight the bad guys (and the bad guys who all work together to fight the good guys), the various nations/factions/army's really just have their own agenda to further, a huge melting-pot of conflict and basically everyone fighting everyone. I wouldn't say evil and good are abstract remote concepts (their ARE good guys and bad guys), but the good guys aren't all rainbows and sunshine with each other; all the "good guys" are as selfish as everyone else and really only care about themselves.


and please keep in mind that i'm only talking about the Warhammer Fantasy world; NOT the real world, and i am NOT trying to make broad statements about
Humanity


...yeah, it does suck to be the good guys right now, but on the other hand, i think heroes are at there best when they are the under-dog. makes for a great game when your Empire amry really has to fight an up-hill battle against those dirty dirty Vampires. and when (if) you win, it'll be all that much sweeter! plus, when thier books come out, i'm sure just as many people will complain that the bad guys are getting shafted.

Kiras of the flame
05-02-2009, 06:54
mmm... Good and Evil is Justified by a persons sense of Right and Wrong...
The Empire see's The Chaos Warriors as marauding forces of barbarians that only kill and slaughter to entertain their Heinous gods...
But the Warriors of Chaos belive that what they do is to be blessed by the gods and to earn their favor, and view the other races of men as weaklings who do not deserve to live in a land where might is right...

In another sense, The High Elves see themselves as defenders of the old world and must be ready to purge the enemies... Obvioulsy they seem vain and proud at this fact...
the Dark elves on the other hand belive that they were destined to rule the old world but were denied victory... So they will then take everything by force... Hense the raiding..

ChaosVC
05-02-2009, 07:10
mmm... Good and Evil is Justified by a persons sense of Right and Wrong...
The Empire see's The Chaos Warriors as marauding forces of barbarians that only kill and slaughter to entertain their Heinous gods...
But the Warriors of Chaos belive that what they do is to be blessed by the gods and to earn their favor, and view the other races of men as weaklings who do not deserve to live in a land where might is right...

In another sense, The High Elves see themselves as defenders of the old world and must be ready to purge the enemies... Obvioulsy they seem vain and proud at this fact...
the Dark elves on the other hand belive that they were destined to rule the old world but were denied victory... So they will then take everything by force... Hense the raiding..

Didn't you read those few post before yours...

dodicula
05-02-2009, 07:14
Damn it feels good to be gangsta

Condottiere
05-02-2009, 08:13
It's a wargame, not an RPG. DMs tailor the adventures so that the player underdogs can overcome adversity in the face of overwhelming odds.

I find moral relativism just too hilarious to give it up.

The Red Scourge
05-02-2009, 11:28
Its pretty hard to make a wood elf army that doesn't massacre its opposition – DoC is pretty hard though. It is less of a fight to beat up HE and Empire, unless they really tool up for elf hunting.

But then again I've always perceived my Wood Elves as psycho cannibal pygmy head hunters of doom – when you inform your opponent of how his DE general is going to end up as kebab roasted over an open flame with onions and mushrooms and a few cloves of garlic and hot peppers, they suddenly feel rather hard pressed on the evil-o-meter ;)

BTW: Ooooh! I've hit a thousand post and not gotten banned yet :D

zak
05-02-2009, 12:54
It certainly does seem that the those army perceived by GW to be evil are doing fairly well at the moment. Take DoC out of the equation and it would certainly seem more equal. I'll try not to get into the whole grey/black/white debate as just reading those last few posts hurt my head!

Melta Pants
05-02-2009, 13:04
The key to understanding Warhmmer is realizing that all the races are evil, and often pursuing good ideals while performing the awful atrocities that are the bread and butter of the Warhammer world.

Yeah, it certainly seems like Evil armies are on top of the heap right now, but I don't mind as much. My Empire seem to be doing pretty well these days, but then again I doubt I can say I've faced the cheese-masters that are tearing up the tourney scene.

fluffstalker
05-02-2009, 14:04
Ah please stop the relativism! Theres enough of it in our supposedly high quality education.

Obviously the human nations of the Warhammer world are ruled without democracy and real sense of human rights, but their world is not ours. In times of crisis strong leadership is needed, and democracy a liablity, and since the Old World is pretty much in a permanent crisis, militaristic and xenophobic social systems are essential to the survival of mankind. Same goes for 40k.

Could you imagine a touch feely liberal democracy in the warhammer world?

"STOP THE WAR IN KISLEV!"
"Bring our soldiers back, stop oppresing the northmen! "

FFS.

Condottiere
05-02-2009, 14:21
The Warhammer world is engulfed in Realpolitik, policy makers generally can ignore bleeding heart liberal lobby groups, who generally have better things to do with their time than to protest far off occurrences, like trying to survive themselves. The only ones with the luxury of spare-time and the resources to follow through are likely Elves.

Lowmans
05-02-2009, 20:38
To stray back to the original thread......

Honestly my BoC are SOOOOOO CHEESE compared to High Elves, Lizardmen etc. I think I might offer people a 500 point handicap!

:rolleyes:

LaughinGremlin
06-02-2009, 00:18
The Warhammer world is engulfed in Realpolitik, policy makers generally can ignore bleeding heart liberal lobby groups, who generally have better things to do with their time than to protest far off occurrences, like trying to survive themselves. The only ones with the luxury of spare-time and the resources to follow through are likely Elves.

The beastmen might be temporarily a crappy army until their rewrite, but they're good for the fluff of the warhammer world which NEEDS conflict to sell its product. You see, the beastmen which permeate the Old World constantly raid the human villages and kill all the peace-loving hippies, and the survivors grow up to become enraged zealots!

Life is great!:evilgrin:

skuller
06-02-2009, 00:39
Sorry bro that you feel that way but good armies can be very effective against vamps and deamons (that are the top tier armies) Woc and DE are good but not that good. Some empire armies specially the popemobil w/ stanks and either gun line or cav can do the trick.
HE are the most versatil army out there right now making the right choices you should be able to get a good 50/50 against all comers.
Bretonnia may lack a lot of new tricks but its still brutal if you charge any heavy unit of deamons, chaos knights or undead with 2-3 lances your probably going to brake them in one turn, for some reason all bret players that I know have the superman complex and think that a single lance will be able to break throuhg anything (again the ones that I know )
Dwarves built aropund a gunline without taking the anvil but maximizing on runepriest and lords will be able to shutdown completly a vamp or deamon magic face.
And WE depending on your selecting you can get as brutal as any demon army so far this year I have field my all forest spirit army 36 dryads, 6 treekin, 2 treeman 2 brainchwraiths and spellweaver and spellsinger I had the following ratio against evil armies

1 win by massacre agaisnt Woc
1 win against Woc
1 draw against deamons
1 win against deamons
1 win by massacre against Vamps
1 lose by massacre against vamps :mad:
1 win by massacre against orcs

and then
2 losses against dwarves :wtf: hahahaha
1 lose by masacre against HE :cries:
1 win by masacre against WE