PDA

View Full Version : of centaurs and bombards



LemanRuss
04-02-2009, 19:44
i would like to know what youre personal experience is with either the centaur or the bombard.

this can be in a krieg army or a normal imperial guard army.

also i wanted to know if there is a way to add a bombard to a regular guard army? and if so in which ia is this?

thanks

Mannimarco
04-02-2009, 19:50
centaur - its a cheap and cheerful little apc, easy enough to kill but is ofet overlooked by an enemy more scared of larger tanks

bombard - its a guess range bloody great big mortar, if your good at guessing ranges take it, if not then dont, personally i prefer the basilisk

if you already have the models great, if not id wait for the new guard codex to see what we are actually getting, remember that you need your opponants permission to use forge world stuff most of the time (some folk ive met were very anti forge world, most were cool with it but just in case dont spend a lot on somthing you maybe wont be able to use)

FraustyTheSnowman
04-02-2009, 20:23
You don't have to guess with guess weapons anymore. It explains this in the 5th edition rulebook.

Haven't gotten to use bombards yet, but they sound amazing on paper. I have three toy artillary kits I got for 9 bucks each that look almost as detailed as the forgeworld earth shaker kits, and will be using them for bombards once I start playing guard again (been too buisy with sisters/daemons/deathguard).

Centaurs I've only used a hand full of times, to unimpressive effect. I only have one, and I think that they, like all vehicles, would be better off in multiples. I'm thinking a command squad with a lascannon that you attach to the firing point, so it's the centaur's primary weapon, and then some plasma or flamers to shoot out of the sides if anything gets close. Passengers being able to fire at different targets from the tank would let you pop enemy armor with the lascannon while your flaming/plasmaing enemy infantry as you put arround. Centaurs being fast would let you move twelve and fire the primary weapon right?

Col. Dash
04-02-2009, 20:29
The bombard would be great if it could fire every round. Getting only 2 possibly 3 round of fire in a 5 round game(and thats if it hasnt already been destroyed) kind of sucks. A 7" template is nice but it needs AP2 if it is going to fire that few of times. That and pointwise I think its expensive for 3 shots.
I dont know anything about and have never seen a centaur on the field.

LemanRuss
04-02-2009, 20:49
well maybe its easier if i show you guys my planned 1000 points list.

its going to look a bit like the following when the new guard codex comes.


-20 stromtroopers
-2 centaurs(with 5 stormstroopers each)
-2 lemanrusses
-valkyrie(stormtroopers)
-snipers
-bombard

ofcourse points are to be seen but this is about an estimate.

also bombards can fire less than 36" right? seeing as theyre guess 36


personally i think theyre great, everyone will focus on them and you can use the free trojan to shield it from incoming fire.

anyhow thats a ppersonal thing i spose

FraustyTheSnowman
04-02-2009, 21:55
Bombard shoots every other round or something? Don't remember seeing that in IA5...damnit...

LemanRuss...I know your only going one grand, but only one bombard and only one valk is asking for problems. Redundancy is key to guard. Also, what do you plan on equipping the storm troopers with? Having multiple units up near your opponents location while pelting them with HUGE blast templates is a good way to whack your own dudes...

I would suggest going for an artillary theme, and add some more bombards/mortars, or going for elite assault, and adding in another ten stormtroopers in a second valk.

Col. Dash
04-02-2009, 23:36
I havent read IA5. In IA3 its every other round. If they changed it in IA5 I might have to seriously consider getting one or two. Skip the Valk, it doesnt really fit the image. grenadiers(sappers) are more like it along with Demolishers instead of LRs due to the abundance of termies running around. Whats your command squad?

Bunnahabhain
05-02-2009, 00:10
well maybe its easier if i show you guys my planned 1000 points list.

its going to look a bit like the following when the new guard codex comes.


-20 stromtroopers
-2 centaurs(with 5 stormstroopers each)
-2 lemanrusses
-valkyrie(stormtroopers)
-snipers
-bombard

ofcourse points are to be seen but this is about an estimate.

also bombards can fire less than 36" right? seeing as theyre guess 36


personally i think theyre great, everyone will focus on them and you can use the free trojan to shield it from incoming fire.

anyhow thats a ppersonal thing i spose

That's a dire list. The snipers and bombard just don't fit. Artillery, especially static artillery, works when you have a whole battle line to hide it behind, not a few mechanised units..

Look at the rule book, if it's range is G36-300, then it can only fire at targets between 36 and 300" away, not within 36". If you place the template within 36", it is out of range, and removed as a miss/dud.


In general Bombards are a bit hit and miss, as you have so few shots, a few bad dice can really cause you problems. They're just like a basalisk, but more so.

Centaurs, however, are great. Cheap, fast transports for our troops units. Repeat until this sinks in. As an open topped vehicle, you can do horrible things if the passengers have 4 flamers- ie a command squad...

Angelus Mortis
05-02-2009, 02:50
FYI, Bombards can ONLY be fire indirect as well. They have a special rule which doesnt allow direct fire so anything thats within 36" cant be hit. Also, it is still every other round as well. Best saved for Apoc.

Centaurs on the other hand, are quite nice. I use them in my Krieg Siege Army with Grenadiers with either a Heavy Flamer or a Melta Gun. The 12" move with a melta works great for surprise tank popping and the same goes for the Heavy Flamer for nailing tight packed troops. Krieg Greanadiers can carry 2 Demo charges too so those can also be tossed. Makes for a nice little surprise, but it will usually only work once against a given opponent. After that, you have to make creative use of terrain and tactics to keep it alive to do its job.

Spacker
05-02-2009, 07:09
First up, there are no Bombard rules in IA5 - in the DK list it's just listed as an option and to see IAv3 for rules.

Under 4th ed it would not be allowed to fire at targets at ranges less than 36", but 5th edition page 58 states that Ordnance Barrage mounted on a vehicle may fire the weapon direct if it has line of sight but in this case loses the benefits of Barrage and is treated as just Ordnance.

So yes, the Bombard can fire at targets closer than 36" if it has LOS :)

Also, artillery appears to be able to do so due to the same vehicle rules - artillery is treated as a vehicle with AV10, and vehicles can fire indirect Ordnance weapons directly, so that makes Heavy Mortars somewhat more useful than they first appear, although unfortunately Quad Launchers still have a min range because they are not Ordnance Barrage, they are just Barrage ...

Marshal Sinclair
05-02-2009, 08:42
The rules are definitely in IA5. I am looking at it right now.

Spacker
05-02-2009, 08:56
The rules are definitely in IA5. I am looking at it right now.

Gah, I was looking at the Renegade Militia list which states that you use IAv3. I need to get the light fixed in my gaming room ...

Still, the IAv5 rules (which are technically for DK only, not generic IG which still would use IAv3) state "It can only fire once every other turn" so it's the same as the IAv3 version.

Marshal Sinclair
05-02-2009, 09:21
The rules in IA5 are the same as IA3 though.

LemanRuss
05-02-2009, 09:29
wow a lot of replies.

the bombard can fire 1 time per 2 turns in ia5 as wel as in ia3.

the reason my force is so deverse in its choises is simple.

i'm making a crusade army with elysian,tallarn,krieg(hey all forgeworld!)
ofcourse the elysians would be in the valkyrie
tallarn would be sniping
and krieg would be a tank force

the idea behind this list is to get all the fast and mobile aspects behind the enemy lines (made safe due to bombardement earlier)

my oponent will then have to choose between the bombard,2russes and the snipers firing away at them or the scoring units so close to him that are taking out tanks and getting objectives.

don't forget the bombard has a major psycho related use, an enemy player that sees his beloved squad and bit of 2 other squads taken out in one go will want to take the bombard out a.s.a.p before it can squeeze of another shot.

the turn that it doesn't fire creates the illusion that just maybe it could be taken down before it can shoot again(emphasis on illusion:P)

anyhow thats my main idea behind the force but hey i could be all wrong and this could be a bad idea(thats why i ask you guys for opinions:D)

thomas

Angelus Mortis
05-02-2009, 09:34
Under 4th ed it would not be allowed to fire at targets at ranges less than 36", but 5th edition page 58 states that Ordnance Barrage mounted on a vehicle may fire the weapon direct if it has line of sight but in this case loses the benefits of Barrage and is treated as just Ordnance.

So yes, the Bombard can fire at targets closer than 36" if it has LOS :)


I have to disagree with you here Spacker, but will concede that its debatable (yay GW goofy wording yet again). Under the Bombard rules on page 143 it says a couple of things that are open to interpretation.


It always fires indirectly at targets it can't see. (Pretty straight forward. But still leaves it able to fire directly at what it can see.)
Then it says, "Bombards are always Barrage weapons with a minimum range of 36". Note the minimum range is 36" (This second line, is what IMHO prevents it from being used in direct fire. It makes sense IMHO, as its so big it would be very difficult to aim directly).


Anyways, I do concede that it is poorly worded, but I believe it can not fire directly. I would suggest users discuss it with opponents before hand.


'm making a crusade army with elysian,tallarn,krieg(hey all forgeworld!)
ofcourse the elysians would be in the valkyrie
tallarn would be sniping
and krieg would be a tank force

Intersting concept, but personally I would make Krieg the footsloggers, and bring on Steel Legion for the Mech stuff. Sure Krieg has some mech/tank forces, but its forte' is lotsa lotsa foot Infantry and tons of Arty. But still, you can do it the way you want. Its not unreasonable.

Marshal Sinclair
05-02-2009, 10:00
The problem with making people choose between killing a Bombard or two Russes is that the Bombard is less durable than a Chimera. It will die early, every game. You will get better results just taking 3 Leman Russ tanks, as they are hard as nails. Snipers aren't an issue for most/any armies and can be safely ignored. That leaves the only threatening units in your army as 2 Leman Russ tanks with very little support.

I am all for themed armies (hence my Tallarn light infantry, Vostrian Heavy Infantry, and Krieg Siege Regiment (and those 150 odd Cadians I don't know what to do with!)), but you should at least try and stick with your own theme. A Bombard is not something that operates behind enemy lines. It can't even fire on the move (fluff and game rules). If your force was able to get A Vehs behind enemy lines, why do they also have troops flying in? I think you should stick to one method of insertion or the other (all in ground vehicles, or all in air vehicles).

But it's your army, so go with whatever you find fun!

Spacker
05-02-2009, 10:10
I have to disagree with you here Spacker, but will concede that its debatable (yay GW goofy wording yet again). Under the Bombard rules on page 143 it says a couple of things that are open to interpretation.


It always fires indirectly at targets it can't see. (Pretty straight forward. But still leaves it able to fire directly at what it can see.)
Then it says, "Bombards are always Barrage weapons with a minimum range of 36". Note the minimum range is 36" (This second line, is what IMHO prevents it from being used in direct fire. It makes sense IMHO, as its so big it would be very difficult to aim directly).


Anyways, I do concede that it is poorly worded, but I believe it can not fire directly. I would suggest users discuss it with opponents before hand.


This to me looks like FW trying to differentiate it from the Basilisk/Medusa which can fire direct, and can be upgraded to fire indirectly. After all, these rules were written back during 4th edition. I'll drop FW an email and see if they can get their FAQs updated :)

Armchair General
05-02-2009, 10:11
<snip> remember that you need your opponants permission to use forge world stuff most of the time (some folk ive met were very anti forge world, most were cool with it but just in case dont spend a lot on somthing you maybe wont be able to use)

Ok, I’m going to say this once.

Ahem.

YOU DO NOT NEED OPPONENTS PERMISSION TO USE FORGEWORLD MODELS.
Except vehicles with structure points or flyers, outside apocalypse games.

This has been discussed several times at great length on this site.

Granted, some people may be d*cks about it, and you can’t force someone to play you, but there is no “legal rules requirement” for you to warn them before hand. I would suggest that neither of those models are particularly game-breaking anyway.

Angelus Mortis
05-02-2009, 10:18
YOU DO NOT NEED OPPONENTS PERMISSION TO USE FORGEWORLD MODELS.
Except vehicles with structure points or flyers, outside apocalypse games.


Agreed. That and the falicy that Apoc has no rules are the two biggest pet peeves I have about this game. People read waaay more into them than they say. You can use FW without permission and Apoc does indeed have rules.

LemanRuss
05-02-2009, 10:43
hmm oke well i can agree with the fact that the bombard may be out of place a bit between this otherwise very mobile army.

is it an idea at all to drop the bombard and maybe the snipers and adding a malcador?

i say this because its a cool tank but in truth i have no idea whatsoever about its rules:P

is it any good?

Marshal Sinclair
05-02-2009, 10:55
Isn't it a Super Heavy Tank? Means you generally can't use it in regular games.

LemanRuss
05-02-2009, 12:39
well me and my gaming buddy's uphold one rule and one rule only.

-to make fun lists to play with and play against

so in most cases it doesn't really matter if someone uses(non game braking)
heavy tanks, which ive heard the malcador is not.

over all i think this list could work with a bit of practise.
having a advancing tank wall from the front and elite mobile units at the back of the enemy should make for a fun game and thats what its all about(do the hokey pokey)

thomas

Col. Dash
05-02-2009, 12:42
Wait, I dont have the books in front of me ATM, but you dont need permission to use non-superheavy and flyers from FW anymore? Where does it say this? If true, this is awesome. I am guessing this isnt the case for tournies however where they can simply say no FW correct?

Marshal Sinclair
05-02-2009, 12:50
Wait, I dont have the books in front of me ATM, but you dont need permission to use non-superheavy and flyers from FW anymore? Where does it say this? If true, this is awesome. I am guessing this isnt the case for tournies however where they can simply say no FW correct?

You need permission to use everything from regular Guardsmen all the way up to Reavers. Without opponents permission you haven't got a game, so it's a moot point.

LemanRuss
05-02-2009, 12:55
You need permission to use everything from regular Guardsmen all the way up to Reavers. Without opponents permission you haven't got a game, so it's a moot point.


isn't that with every game?

the way i think it usually goes

(sm player)-hey jhonny want to put youre tau against my marines?
(jhonny)-no sorry bill i don't like playing vs marines

same thing i spose, if someone doesn't want to play you does it matter what the reason is?


p.s. this doesn't count in relation to tourneys as said before as they make up there own rules

Angelus Mortis
05-02-2009, 13:06
You need permission to use everything from regular Guardsmen all the way up to Reavers. Without opponents permission you haven't got a game, so it's a moot point.

People who try dictating their opponents list to them usually find opponents far and between. I would like to see somebody in my club tell another guy he can't use something. Hilarity will ensue. Fortunately, 90% are 25-50 age range so it never comes up.

Armchair General
05-02-2009, 13:12
Wait, I dont have the books in front of me ATM, but you dont need permission to use non-superheavy and flyers from FW anymore? Where does it say this? If true, this is awesome. I am guessing this isnt the case for tournies however where they can simply say no FW correct?

You haven't needed it since at least the start of the current series of hardbacks - I can't remember what the rulings were for the previous books. Read the Warwick Kinrade's introductions right at the beginning of certainly volume one, probably the others too, for more clarification.

Though this does all need to have the disclaimer that the concept of 'permission' is somewhat ridiculous outside of a tournament setting anyway, in my opinion.

Marshal Sinclair
05-02-2009, 13:17
@Angelus Mortis / LemanRuss: That's my point. If you think something is cool, just take it, and assume it's fine for gaming. Very rare will be the person who will say no or complain.

Sholto
05-02-2009, 13:22
I had never considered Centaurs - can my Inq Stormtroopers take them?

Sholto

Bunnahabhain
05-02-2009, 13:25
Yes, Storm troopers or Command squads, IIRC

Spacker
05-02-2009, 13:26
I had never considered Centaurs - can my Inq Stormtroopers take them?

Sholto

I'd let you, but the Centaur rules themselves are unclear - they state "Imperial Guard command squad or a Storm Trooper squad", which could be taken to mean any Storm Trooper squads (IG and Inq) or only Imperial Guard Storm Trooper squads (due to the lack of a comma between the 2 squad names, which would imply that the IG qualifier applies to the ST squad too).

LemanRuss
05-02-2009, 13:56
fun is the name of the game.

anyways back to subject. is the malcador worth its points or am i better of going with a demolisher and something extra?

Sholto
05-02-2009, 16:28
Yes, Storm troopers or Command squads, IIRC


I'd let you, but the Centaur rules themselves are unclear -
Thanks!

Sholto

laudarkul
05-02-2009, 18:08
So with a comand squad w/ lascannon+1melta in a Centaur, I can move the vehicle 12" and fire the primary weapon (ergo LC) or 6" and fire both of them:D?

LemanRuss
05-02-2009, 19:05
So with a comand squad w/ lascannon+1melta in a Centaur, I can move the vehicle 12" and fire the primary weapon (ergo LC) or 6" and fire both of them:D?

well the centaur is a fast vehicle so think you can fire both of them at 12"
plus its open topped so i think you could fire all weapons inside at 12 " as technically its not the vehicle firing them.

i could be wrong tough as i haven't played with fast or opened topped vehicles ever!

Bookwrak
05-02-2009, 19:40
It has a special rule that allows you to fire squad heavy weapons on the move, IIRC. i don't remember the exact details of it.

silentsmoke
05-02-2009, 20:19
Hi matey, the Bombard is great for VERY large games. Nice model also.

I recently done my Malcador defender. Not bad for points but I wouldn't rely on it as a support tank though. Depends what you will be facing really - I'm mainly against Tyranids so this works rather well.

Hope you are getting more done with your Krieg

Speak to you later