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dunagrad
04-02-2009, 19:48
Okay, my younger cousin just recently started a Dark Elf army and I am starting a new Lizardmen army. Due to my location, he is one of the few people I have the time to play regularly. Which is fine, except that he is known less for his dependence on tactics and more for his use of dirty tricks and tendency to *ahem* cheat. All the same, I usually beat him down with my dwarfs. At least, that was before he went Dark Elf. The dwarfs haven't met them yet, but It will probably be my lizardmen that will be facing them.

There seems to be a consensus that DE are somewhat over powered? At least, the posts I have read seem to make these implications. So with that being the case, and my cousin's lack of affection for balance, I'm asking for suggestions and recommendations about what type of army I should field and what I should watch out for when facing these guys. Aside from the roll of 1 that "magically" becomes a 6. I've already heard him say that assassins can be hidden in any unit including the enemy's. I scanned the book at the store and didn't see this one. Maybe this gives you an idea of what I'm dealing with. Any tips would be helpful. Thanks.

Bac5665
04-02-2009, 20:10
Only the SC assassin can hide in enemy units. Otherwise, normal assassins can only hide in certain units. There is a list in the assassin rules.

NEVER let someone whose grasp of the rules is less than excelent use an SC. Heck, just don't use SCs. They aren't balanced and complicate the game for no benefit.

With the new lizardmen list, I'd stick with a slann/TG list, with saurus blocks to back you up. The Rink of Hotek will mess you up, but that can't be avoided, and you may as well try and force the Slann through. A scar-vet on a horned one can gank the RoH bearer, though he may well die himself in the process. Its hard to say what lore to take against them; Fire is fun but not really tactical. Beasts just kinda sucks, except of course for the Beasts cowers, which may be helpful, but then your stuck with the rest of that lore. Shadows isn't bad, but Pit isn't great against Elves, and the rest of the spells are really situational.

Anyway, DE are a tough match-up for lizards, new and old. A good take all comers list should be able to do it, but it will be a challenging game.

dunagrad
04-02-2009, 20:14
Great. Thanks for the advice. I think I'll pick up a DE book when I get the new LM book. That way I can keep an eye on him. Any one have other suggestions?

isidril93
04-02-2009, 20:22
skinks with pipes...mwahaha all those shots on those little traitor elves

Emissary
04-02-2009, 20:53
The lore of shadow is a good one to use against the DE if you're afraid of the ring of hotek. A lot of the spells in it don't target them which helps to avoid the ring. Plus the 3d6 S1 spell is wonderful against a lord with the pendent if you can isolate him and get him.

Roxors45
04-02-2009, 21:07
The lore of shadow is a good one to use against the DE if you're afraid of the ring of hotek. A lot of the spells in it don't target them which helps to avoid the ring. Plus the 3d6 S1 spell is wonderful against a lord with the pendent if you can isolate him and get him.

Whats the Ring of Hotek do?

Maldred2
04-02-2009, 21:10
actually, on the the lizardmen site there was a poll wich lore was the best for the new slann.


the winner: beasts (!) and death.

the poll can be found here:

http://www.pyramidvault.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2788

vamp
05-02-2009, 04:52
do those skinks with their pipes have any armor modifier?

Dokushin
05-02-2009, 05:11
do those skinks with their pipes have any armor modifier?

They have a special kind of modifier called, 'eight zillion shots' :D

In all seriousness -- no, they're strength 3 attacks and do not modify armor saves. However, they're still brilliant, because at two shots per skink, skinks costing only a few points, and the fact that they are skirmishers (so no ranks limiting fire) means you can fire a staggering number of shots.

Skinks can take down just about anything in the game through sheer volume of fire. Sure, they instagib big stuff with no armor (giants, etc) but even with heavy armor and a ward that poison is going to get through eventually.

Famder
05-02-2009, 06:11
Salamanders and Razordons would be particularly useful against DE. Each one has a different use. They can both manuever to counter his Fast Cav with ranged fire. The Salamander breath can be used agains the better armored foes (-3 to saves) and since they are elves the Str 3 isn't such an issue. The razordon just lays down a lot of fire at shorter range.

Skinks may be your best bet to take down a hydra though since their poison will bypass the toughness. The regen will be annoying, but you'll have to deal with that anyway. And if he decides to roast the unit, congrats he spent nearly two and a half times the cost of the skinks unit to kill a couple models.

Embalmed
05-02-2009, 11:00
Blade of Realities is a Hydra-Buster of calibre, probably the best item in the game for this purpose, but would require you to forego the Slann.

Anti magic is probably a good idea, some of the DE magic is nasty, so a EoTGs is a good investment. EoTGs attack power is quite good too. Hunting packs should be good, his guys tend to die somewhat easily.

Whitehorn
05-02-2009, 11:20
skinks with pipes...mwahaha all those shots on those little traitor elves
Won me a game just fine.

Famder
05-02-2009, 13:46
Anti magic is probably a good idea, some of the DE magic is nasty, so a EoTGs is a good investment. EoTGs attack power is quite good too. Hunting packs should be good, his guys tend to die somewhat easily.

It's more cost effective to get a second priest with dispel scrolls instead of buying bolt thrower bait. Sure some of the abilities are good, but they're only good so long as the engine and the priest are alive. The DE have plenty of things that can take care of either quickly. And if you are doing it for that extra PD and DD, don't bother. A level 2 Skink priest can perform the same function, carry an extra two dispel scrolls, and all for nearly half the price.

dunagrad
05-02-2009, 16:10
Man, there is a lot of helpful information here. Thanks to all of you for it. I hate that the EoG could go down so easily. It's such a nice model. I'll probably field a steggie anyway just for that reason, at least once. The thing I have working for me is that my cousin probably doesn't know the DE as well as most you guys do. But then, it doesn't take a genius to point a bolt thrower at the biggest thing in the enemy's army either. Thanks again.

dunagrad
05-02-2009, 16:15
Also, I really like the poison skins idea. Was pretty sure I was going to take those anyway, but I didn't even think about the skirmishers rule. Now it's almost definite. Too bad they don't have scout anymore. I was really looking forward to that.

Gabacho Mk.II
05-02-2009, 16:31
Some magical advice:


I would suggest taking the Lore of Metal. Mostly due to the Transmutation of Lead and the Law of Gold.

My second choice would be Lore of Shadow. Creeping Death has killed more than its statistical share of DE's (always good), and the spells of Unseen Lurker and Steed of Shadows (sacrifice a Saurus from a unit and Fly him toward the nearest DE mage, and see him cry) do their share of hurt against DE's.



Also, fielding a Truthsayer wouldnt hurt either. ;) [I swear by these wizards when I play against a DE army with my Lizards]

Gaargod
05-02-2009, 18:21
You can't pick out an individual saurus and lob him with Steed of Shadows. Only works on US1 characters.

However, a Scar Vet can perform much the same purpose and if he takes Charm of Jag Warrior he can try it by himself too

Nomad
05-02-2009, 19:05
Salamanders would be a very good choice. Not so much for the panic tests, given that Dark Elves have fairly high leadership (although with a pack of three they'll probably fail one eventually), but Dark Elves have low toughness and their infantry has poor armour, so the -3 save modifier will wreak havoc on expensive units like Black Guard.

forsmark
05-02-2009, 21:06
Is cold one cavalry not to be used anymore with the new codex? I mean, I used to play with two units of cavalry and skinks to screen them, but I guess that ain't viable more?

Nightsword
06-02-2009, 00:21
I don't see why its not viable anymore forsmark, you can still do that fine. Saurus cavalry are pretty solid if you ask me, though people think they are still overcosted, but I'd still (and did) take them.

Famder
06-02-2009, 01:31
CoR are still viable, as is your tactic, you might even be able to do with cheaper with rnf skinks instead. They probably are still overcosted by a small margin, but they are on par as far as performance goes with anything in the special section other than TG with a Slann in it.

sroblin
06-02-2009, 03:23
Isn't the Cold One cavalry better than before? It's still expensive, but they're also still very deadly and I can't see how they've gotten worse. A Cold One versus Cold One fight would be amusing if you were fighting Dark Elves.

Krusty
06-02-2009, 03:36
yes, even before the armor save increase, CoR's were included in almost any lizardmen army i played (although maybe this will change with the loss of the banner of flanking...)

a unit of 5 or 6 in a slann//temple guard + saurus blocks army would for sure be a viable unit to bring...


really, to OP, i would go with a unit of CoR, a slann and TG, 1 or 2 more blocks of saurus, some skirmish skinks, and a unit or 2 of salamanders...
salamanders will definitely prove their worth as most dark elf armies rely on atleast one or two big solid infantry blocks that are usually armored pretty well

wooden anteater
06-02-2009, 03:44
As a dark elves player who regularly plays lizzies, I've got to say I fear most the present salamanders/new razordons, and skink skirmishers. While the delves have the tools to handle both, the amount of damage some sallies can put out on expensive, elite units is quite disheartening, and can be used to create a large area of control purely through perceived threat. Skinks and their poisoned weapons can really tick you off as well, both controlling movement and providing a tool for handling the rather prolific monsters.

snuib
19-02-2009, 17:57
if i were u i would watch out for the dark elves black ark corsairs with lokhir fellheart, you will most definetly have to bring some heavy hitters who can survive a beating bring a group of temple guard with chackax(or whatever his name is) and becareful that your unit doesnt break or else the dark leves slaver rules will score double victory points for running you down but with a dark lef lizardmen battle magic will be flying like crazy so becareful also any dark elf hero or lord is an amazing hero or lord disputably the best in warhammer

walo
19-02-2009, 18:21
iīve played against DE recently... with aprox. 150 SHOTS per turn... mostly shades and my advice:
1. the best troop = terradons - the drop rocks ability is awesom against them, most on the skirmish shades units
2. protect your skink on EotG... mine died in 1st round of his shooting phase, so the engine didnīt have time to do anything...

Conotor
20-02-2009, 02:10
Sarrus warrors with spears should pwn dark elves, as will salamanders. Temple guard will be almost immune to virtually all his infantry.

dunagrad
21-02-2009, 04:43
Okay, its been a while, but I've been busy and doing some research. A little anyway, and I thought I'd run this army by everyone to face my mencing cousin's army of Dark Elves. First off, I have to say that this is basically the army listed in the "Lizadrmen - Sample Armies and Tactics" article on the warhammer website. It's kind of cheating, I know, but it seems to have most of the basic stuff I was thinking about taking. I modified it a little bit of course:

Slann-mage with 2 disciplines (Still deciding on those. Open for discussion. Also still considering the lores. Doing the research.)

Skin Priest (Level 2) on EoG

Scar-Vet with Charm of Jaguar (Thought I'd try the suggestion about hurling
him toward the Ring of Hotek if my cousin brings it.)

18 Saurus Spear Warriors with command in 6*3 formation (the Scar-vet
will Join this unit most likely).

2 Units 10 Skin Skirmishers with Blowpipes

20 Temple Guard with command

3 Terradon Riders

2 Razordon

1 Salamander (Can't decide if I want 2 sallies and 1 Razor or vice-versa)

If my numbers are correct, this leaves me with about 109 pts to play with so I may take extra skinks for the hinting packs or extra warriors or somthing else nice. Guess I need a BSB in there somewhere.

As far as disciplines I am debating Rumination, Mystery, Cogitation, and Stone.

I'll bring up Lores later because I know it is a heavily covered topic in this forum already. I'll save it till I feel read up on it enough. Anyway, this is my first official army build for Lizardmen, albeit mostly a theft from GW. How do you think this will hold up against the DE? And what suggestions for improvement. Thanks in Advance!!:eek:

Cousteau
28-02-2009, 20:42
You'll have to watch out for the potential maneuverability of the Dark Elves. He could have a bunch of Dark Riders, Harpies, or Shades ready to flank you. I'm not an expert on the Lizardmen book, but some Skinks would probably help you out.

Necromancy Black
28-02-2009, 23:37
Sallies > Razerdons!

Sallies are almsot made to kill DE. They can fire far enough to stay out of their charge range and move faster then them so they can stay alive. The flame templates gets a good number of hits against any block of 20mm models.
You'll wound on a 4 and at -3 to armour the number of units DE have that would still get an armour save can be counted on one hand with a finger or two to spare.

If he does go all shooty on you, Lore of Life. Master of Stone and Master of Woods are good, long range hitters both standing shooters near hills and forests, the Rain Lord can pretty much end a DE unit's chances of hitting anything as all their range attacks are AP, meaning they cop a pernament -2 to hit modifier. Holwer wind keeps any shooting S4 or lower from doing anything (again, great against DE shooters), and it's worth trying to cast this at the end of each magic phase. Mistress of the Marsh may help prevent a charge or two onto you, and Gift of Life on a Stegadon or Slann really annoys people :D

Lore of Life is really a good anti-DE-gunline Lore. It's not going to be as affective if he takes a more combat style army, in which I reakonmend Fire or death. Against an all witch-elf army with alot of immune to psycology units, go with fire. Otherwise go death. Make sure you cast Doom and Darkness onto whatever it is the Sallamanders will be shooting. That should start getting a few more untis running.

Fianally, a note on the ring of hotek: check out the DE FAQ on the Games Workshop website. Infact, print it and take a copy with you.

Ring of Hotek, as the FAQ says, will only work if a unit in range is directly targetted by a spell. So area affect spells like Drain Life will only trigger the ring if the wizard casting it is withing 12" of the ring bearer (obviously). If you get lucky this can actually mean you'll get d3 Str 3 hits with no AS onto the actual unit with the ring in it :p