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View Full Version : Dark Angles still getting the short end of th stick?



Aladin_sane
05-02-2009, 13:34
Hi all, I've recently been looking at the space wolves and Dark angles FAQs and it seems that the space wolves are aloud the landraider redeemer where as dark angles don't. Isn't this a little unfair, I'm not saying that the redeemer is game winning, its just a very nice and good looking option. Plus the space wolves list is still considerably competitive (having been beaten by them 2 weeks ago :p), I just don't see why space wolves get special treatment. I believe that blood angles have gotten the same end of the stick as DA, any thoughts on why this is?

Thanks in advanced for any replies.

MajorWesJanson
05-02-2009, 13:36
Yes. GW confirmed that they hate Dark Angels and anyone who plays them. Check the other threads about this issue.

marv335
05-02-2009, 13:41
the space wolves get their vehicles from the space marine codex. DA and BA have their own independent codecies.

Eldarion
05-02-2009, 13:48
Really im kind of suprised, I would have thought allowing Dark angels to have land raider redeemer would have benifited GW sales..........

marv335
05-02-2009, 13:53
the current design philosophy is for one codex and minimal errata (just for editing/rules clarifications).

Adding units out of another codex has no part of this philosophy.

kris.sherriff
05-02-2009, 14:59
Really im kind of suprised, I would have thought allowing Dark angels to have land raider redeemer would have benifited GW sales..........

It would have been but GW can't win.

If they had said look new SM codex all you dark angel players need to buy it cos it has these units that you can use.
The Internet would complain that DA were getting special treatment and that the Poster Boy space marines are just being powered up all the time.... (lots of other whining that GW is evil and just wants your money and don't care about the balance of their codex's)

If the keep the internal balance of the list as they are and try to make differences between the different Space Marine armies other than the color scheme that they are shafting players and are to stupid to run their own buisness.... ( lots of other whining that GW is crap and does not support all the people who have bought their armies already and just want you to go out and buy an new army cos they just want your money, Dam Evil GW!)

Dark Angels have not been Nerfed their book is the same as it was when it came out. Nobody has come around your house, picked up your Codex and ripped a couple of pages out and said "their you go win with that."


Kris

Marshal Sinclair
05-02-2009, 15:03
The way I look at it, Codex: Imperial Guard cannot take units from Codex: Space Marines. Therefore, why should Codex: Dark Angels? Yes, they are Space Marines, but so are Grey Knights and the Traitor Legions. Should they have access to everything in Codex: Space Marines, too?

JagdWehrwolf
05-02-2009, 15:12
Well no, they shouldn`t. But if their codex contains units, vehicles, characters with outdated rules that should be adressed. And that is why people invented erratas. And after that they thought "Hey, lets put it on our official website so all concerned will be able to download it and praise our wisdom". ;)

El_Phen
05-02-2009, 15:14
I always wanted to know, is a Dark Angle less than or more than 90 degrees? I only ask as it's embarrassing to confuse it with a Blood Angle.

Marshal Sinclair
05-02-2009, 15:22
Well no, they shouldn`t. But if their codex contains units, vehicles, characters with outdated rules that should be adressed. And that is why people invented erratas. And after that they thought "Hey, lets put it on our official website so all concerned will be able to download it and praise our wisdom". ;)

Imperial Guard
Daemon Hunters
Witch Hunters
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Chaos Marines
Space Wolves

All these armies have wargear or units that were updated for Codex: Space Marines. I guess they should all be able to use this gear? In theory every Codex is a seperate entity with nothing to do with any other (with the exception of Space Wolves/Blood Angels (I think these are the only ones that refer to other books (plus WH/DH, but that's different))), and as such should be treated as an entirely seperate entity.

Just because one book has a unit name Tactical Marine doesn't mean it's the same thing as a unit name Tactical Marine in another book. Nor is there any reason why it must. We get to the silly realm of Pathfinders (Tau) and Pathfinders (Eldar) sharing transport options and stuff in that case.

IAMNOTHERE
05-02-2009, 15:36
A Dark Angle is a SM multiplied by -j where as a Blood angle is a SM multiplie by j squared.

Hope that clears things up for you.

the1stpip
05-02-2009, 15:44
Ah, another week, another disgruntled DA player.

GW do not like to issue errata as not everyone has access to the 'net, not everyone buys WD, and not everyone has a local GW.

That is why they are only clarifications, not wholesale change.

ZOMGBBQ
05-02-2009, 15:46
Oh god sake.

Not more Dark Angle Whining!

Why cant you just be content like the Right Angle or Acute Angle!

PS: Space Wolves players have had to use 2 Books to play our army for 10 years now, stop complaining. If you think its "unfair" for Dark Angels to not have 2+/3++ Terminators as troops choices, then I hope you never find another opponent to play with ever again.

BigBadBull
05-02-2009, 15:46
One option is to Buy the LR's for the DA's from the FW IA 2 Faq update... This would make you a bit happier since they are more in line with the new Marine LR's in price and Epq.

I remember when the DA codex came out and the regular SM guys were a bit miffed that we got alot of epq for free, and we could take as many LRC's as we wanted instead of 1.

Turn about is fair play...

ZOMGBBQ
05-02-2009, 15:49
One option is to Buy the LR's for the DA's from the FW IA 2 Faq update... This would make you a bit happier since they are more in line with the new Marine LR's in price and Epq.

I remember when the DA codex came out and the regular SM guys were a bit miffed that we got alot of epq for free, and we could take as many LRC's as we wanted instead of 1.

Turn about is fair play...

Aye, they were a bit miffed, but seriously, I have never seen a more whiny bunch of players than Dark Angel players. I've not seen any Space Wolf Players whining about how we have Ld9 Psychics, or no Free Frag and Krak, or no Free Special Weapons, or how we pay old Points (RAW) for Rhinos and Razorbacks.

No, why? Because we shrug and get on with life (I personally couldn't care less, at least WE'LL get a new codex with the Updated rules come December, unlike the Emo Marines who will be waiting years :))

JagdWehrwolf
05-02-2009, 15:51
Maybe the reason is they know they`ll be updated in a few months?

Darkangeldentist
05-02-2009, 16:17
The discrepancies are annoying and can be upsetting but ultimately the Dark angels have their own codex and before the release of the Marine book it was considered a pretty balanced and reasonable book.

After the release of the new marines everyone obsesses over differences partly because they should have been a lot more minor particularly concerning the wargear and also because the books were release quite closely. There is little chance of a new Dark angel codex being released any time soon.

I do very well with my Dark angels, both for friendly games and at tournaments. The new marine codex has not beguiled me with it's charms and I have fought several marine armies and defeated them.

Incidentally whatever reasons you ascribe it to, the Dark angels have been doing a bit better than the new marines in tournaments.

Aladin_sane
05-02-2009, 16:21
Okay to clarify, I'm not a dark angles player. I was only browsing the FAQs for the marine chapters I like and uncovered this dilemma. So I'm NOT complaining about dark angels I was just about a possible drawback I could see to a possible future army. Gees..

The comparison to space wolves was used because I think that they have been allowed the nice new landraider where as the the other chapters haven't. I know codex: Space Wolves is a supplement of the Space Marines but like the other chapters that aren't directly tied to the vanilla marines they have very unique options, units and rules.

ZOMGBBQ
05-02-2009, 16:21
Maybe the reason is they know they`ll be updated in a few months?

Um, yeah, because the 4th ed Marine codex came out when?

We've been needing an update since at least then. It is the Oldest codex in use and its about bloody time. (no Dark Eldar is NOT older, they got a second printing that added a ton of stuff and Wytch Cults, making it newer than the Space Wolves)

maelstrom66669
05-02-2009, 17:03
I always wanted to know, is a Dark Angle less than or more than 90 degrees? I only ask as it's embarrassing to confuse it with a Blood Angle.

quote of the day XD

But seriously, if you dont like your rules, you can always paint your guys blue and go as ultramarines.

ZOMGBBQ
05-02-2009, 17:06
quote of the day XD

But seriously, if you dont like your rules, you can always paint your guys blue and go as ultramarines.

You dodnt even have to paint them blue, just say they are Aquamarines and are painted Green but use Ultramarine Rules.

YAY FOR COUNTSAS!

Ubermensch Commander
05-02-2009, 17:18
Heh what I always find amusing is that no one questions the "We should get everything the standard book gets and THEN some special junk of our own!" flavoring to pretty much every DA (or BA or BT) thread that complains about the SM codex.
What if SM players using the regular book said "hey that is not fair! We cannot get Terminators(never mind Deathwing Termies) as troop choices!" or "What about OUR Death Company?" I wonder...hmmmmm *ponders*


I think several posters such as Kris Sheriff and ZOMGBBQ have pretty much summed up my feelings on this.
The DA codex is the same as it has been. Outshined by some new stuff? *shrug* ok. Dammit. It happens to everyone. Just keep on playing and use counts as or house rules till the game is fun for you.
Or commit ritual suicide because the shame and dishonor of playing with the DA codex is too great....yknow, whatever works for ya.

Ixquic
05-02-2009, 17:31
It would have been but GW can't win.

If they had said look new SM codex all you dark angel players need to buy it cos it has these units that you can use.
The Internet would complain that DA were getting special treatment and that the Poster Boy space marines are just being powered up all the time.... (lots of other whining that GW is evil and just wants your money and don't care about the balance of their codex's)

If the keep the internal balance of the list as they are and try to make differences between the different Space Marine armies other than the color scheme that they are shafting players and are to stupid to run their own buisness.... ( lots of other whining that GW is crap and does not support all the people who have bought their armies already and just want you to go out and buy an new army cos they just want your money, Dam Evil GW!)

Dark Angels have not been Nerfed their book is the same as it was when it came out. Nobody has come around your house, picked up your Codex and ripped a couple of pages out and said "their you go win with that."


Kris

This is stupid logic. If a list has a power level of X and then the next has 2X, while they didn't directly make X weaker it is now not as powerful in relation to other things so in effect it was nerfed indirectly. The Dark Angels book isn't in a vacuum, it's balanced around stuff that didn't even exist until the new Marines book came out. You can't honestly say that GW had 3+ invul save storm shields in mind when they designed Codex Dark Angels can you?

If you want to say that GW has some sort of retarded "there's one guy in the Australian Outback that doesn't have the internet in 2009 so we can't release periodic rules updates through it" policy fine, but don't claim that there is some kind of balance involved here because of "different Marine Chapters" or such nonsense.

Honestly this would have been simple for GW to solve: DA players use the new Codex and release a small PDF with updated rules and point costs for the special characters. For the record I don't play marines, but the situation is why I get annoyed with 40k and the way their slow ass rules updates result in assault cannons and shotguns that should be the same (all Imperial issued) but work differently depending on who is using them. Not to turn this into a 40k vs Fantasy argument (since that game has its own set of issues at the moment) but at least when new rules update great weapons people don't have to wait three years until their codex comes out before they can take advantage of them.



Heh what I always find amusing is that no one questions the "We should get everything the standard book gets and THEN some special junk of our own!" flavoring to pretty much every DA (or BA or BT) thread that complains about the SM codex.
What if SM players using the regular book said "hey that is not fair! We cannot get Terminators(never mind Deathwing Termies) as troop choices!" or "What about OUR Death Company?" I wonder...hmmmmm *ponders*


How is this ANY different from chapters that now have everything the new book does but get a special character that lets them go White Scars or master crafted flame/melta weapons?

ZOMGBBQ
05-02-2009, 17:34
Honestly this would have been simple for GW to solve: DA players use the new Codex and release a small PDF with updated rules and point costs for the special characters.

Ok then, lets do that. Will YOU personally pay to make sure every single dark angel player in the World has a copy, translated into their respective languages?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Ixquic
05-02-2009, 17:52
Ok then, lets do that. Will YOU personally pay to make sure every single dark angel player in the World has a copy, translated into their respective languages?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

You REALLY think a PDF with a sentence saying "Use the current Space Marine codex and these 4 characters" (mostly photocopied from the current DA book) is going the cost anything significant? Seriously? That's like five minutes of work if even. You realize that they DID do something similar in 6th edition Fantasy when it turned out that Dark Elves ended up being significantly overcosted per model.

Everyone that has the ability to afford this hobby can get on the internet and download a 30k file.

captain ceaser
05-02-2009, 18:08
I do agree that the issues are unfair all space marines should be allowed the same equiptment then the divergent chapters should have their specific flavours(DC raven ect) at adjusted points costs.

The issue now though is so huge as the new marine codex is out as is BA, Da and wolves coming soon because Gw have allowed it to drag out for some unknown reason. If they had any foresight they would of seen these problems coming and set up pdf's faqs or whatever for the various parties involved.

I think though that in the end this arguement is NEVER going to end untill new editions of the books come out and then there will be something that players will find to complain about.

For the record i have ultras and DA(played using their codex)

Ubermensch Commander
05-02-2009, 18:34
@Ixquic
Actually your statement highlights my point. The two codexes(codices) are different. The Dark Angels codex has some things that are different from the SM codex, in terms of equipment, characters, and unit selection. Many DA arguments, though not necessarily in this thread, say "Well the SM codex has it, we shoul get it!" yet nowhere do I the counterpoint "well ok...what do normal SM players get access to in return?" The Deathwing? The Ravenwing?
I just find it amusing that when clamoring about how much the DA book is outclassed and the desire for the same shiny bits of the SM codex, for fairness or equalities sake, there is no talk of allowing SM players acces to BT, BA, DA equpment.
All I did, with my hypothetical questions, is present the case in reverse, although there is still some difference as the Deathwing terminators are difference from regular termies, none of the SC in the SM codex allow you to alter the FOC (best I can tell), etc.

Sleazy
05-02-2009, 18:55
Heh what I always find amusing is that no one questions the "We should get everything the standard book gets and THEN some special junk of our own!" flavoring to pretty much every DA (or BA or BT) thread that complains about the SM codex.
What if SM players using the regular book said "hey that is not fair! We cannot get Terminators(never mind Deathwing Termies) as troop choices!" or "What about OUR Death Company?" I wonder...hmmmmm *ponders*


I think several posters such as Kris Sheriff and ZOMGBBQ have pretty much summed up my feelings on this.
The DA codex is the same as it has been. Outshined by some new stuff? *shrug* ok. Dammit. It happens to everyone. Just keep on playing and use counts as or house rules till the game is fun for you.
Or commit ritual suicide because the shame and dishonor of playing with the DA codex is too great....yknow, whatever works for ya.



Nail, Head, Hit.

If you gain the new shiny baubles from Codex:Space Marines what do you lose instead? If DA can have access to all SM stuff plus their own then why play SM?

Aladin_sane
05-02-2009, 18:58
quote of the day XD

But seriously, if you dont like your rules, you can always paint your guys blue and go as ultramarines.

I'd rather use metal wool as toilet paper for the rest of my days :p

Ixquic
05-02-2009, 19:04
I don't think that the DA codex should simply be "Replace any storm shield with the current 3+ one at the same cost" or whatever. What I'm arguing is it's stupid to have a set of rules that are so blatantly out of step with the current direction of marines. Like I said a good solution would be to turn the army into something like the current way they handled chapters like the White Scars, allow special characters to change the abilities of the army. "Taking Azrael allows you to remove combat tactics and lets your terminators gain fearless and your bikes gain teleport homers and scout" then increasing his points accordingly or some such equivalent. Belial is just a regular guy in power armor that lets you alter the FO anyway so losing him wouldn't be any big blow. Maybe just "Use Codex Space Marines except for Deathwing Terminators which are X points per squad and Ravenwing which are Y points per squad." Either way is a very small amount of work and no way unbalanced unless you think the way they handled the big 4 in previous editions to be unfair.

Different chapters have always had different stuff that made them separate lists such as Deathwing terminators which are fearless and cost more points, Death Company, Long fangs and so on. However they all use basically the same equipment with small differences, like how DA used to be the only chapter that could take Plasma Cannons and stuff. There's absolutely no "fluff" reason that Dark Angels should be using inferior gear and not have access to newer Land Raiders. Consolidating their list into an offshoot of the main Marine Codex would mean they lose a few tricks, but overall they would gain more and the game would be more consistent.

I do agree that DA players shouldn't be able to take the best from both lists but I think most people would begrudgingly give up their shotguns if it meant settling for 3+ invul saves and Land Raider redeemers.

ZOMGBBQ
05-02-2009, 19:19
I do agree that DA players shouldn't be able to take the best from both lists but I think most people would begrudgingly give up their shotguns if it meant settling for 3+ invul saves and Land Raider redeemers.

That is exactly the problem though, all you hear about is "Whaa I want better stuff" while ignoring stuff that got toned down or nerfed

Aladin_sane
05-02-2009, 19:22
Ixquic: You raise a clear issue, why would a Dark Angles storm shield function differently to a Ultramarines their both marines who get supplied by the same Imperium. But if their both marines then why bother with chapter traits anyway? And if god made us then who made god? But I digress.

This isn't a wine as to why Dark Angles don't have 3+ invulnerable storm shields its more to do with the problem that the same equipment is benefiting one army more than others. It's a wide spread problem with the varying imperium armies.

HiveFleetEzekial
05-02-2009, 19:29
Then you, like so many others, apparently don't 'hear' much, ZOMG. Either that, or what hearing there is, is very selective.. :\

'Most' DA players, the ones of us that have actually been around long enough to know wtf we're all talking about with GW's history and such, only want things like gear to work the same across the board. They're not called Standard Template constructs for nothing. A storm shield should be a storm shield, with the same abilities, nomatter who wields it. The only possible variance being cost, just due to availability to individual groups. Machine spirits, which go in all land raiders, and have their own versions of STC that the admech 'pray'/tinker over, should have the same abilities in every landraider out there that is of the currently used design. And, a majority, want *our* Mortis dreadnoughts that 'nilla marines stole from us, full and proper!.

The majority of us couldn't care less about redeemers and stern/vanguard, or new speeders and such. Please pay more attention to that now, and quit doing like oh so many other people do and just take all of the much louder whiners as the only voice of the entire DA community. They're not.



And, a point on one of your earlier responces. I'll tell you why SW don't complain any. They know they're much better off right now, than any other SM army out there. They know they have no room ro whine or complain about things. They get to use a mix of their old rules (which were pretty kick-butt in their own right) combined with many of the units (and variants), rules, and points the new SM get. Please, don't evben try to compare their situation to ours.



(Now, seriously.. Our benevolent moderators and admins, can we *please* get one of these oh so lengthy discussions on this matter stickied, at the top of the forum/s, and put someone on a 'overwatch' status to keep any further threads from resurrecting this dead horse over and over, and over, and over again, ad infinitum? I'll gladly volunteer to be the one to help keep them from springing up. :skull: )

Ixquic
05-02-2009, 19:31
That is exactly the problem though, all you hear about is "Whaa I want better stuff" while ignoring stuff that got toned down or nerfed

I believe those people are being as unreasonable as the ones who think that Dark Angels shouldn't get some sort of official update bringing them in line with the current rules for Marines.

decker_cky
05-02-2009, 19:36
Dark Angels have not been Nerfed their book is the same as it was when it came out. Nobody has come around your house, picked up your Codex and ripped a couple of pages out and said "their you go win with that."


Kris

No....they reserved that treatment for beast players in fantasy. :P

TheLionReturns
05-02-2009, 20:27
I think part of the problem is that DA are mostly a codex chapter. To quote the latest DA codex: "an outside observer would find it difficult to spot any differences between the Dark Angels and a Chapter rigidly organized according to the Codex, such as Ultramarines". It is this combined with the fact that DA players know they will have to wait until the end of the release cycle until they are brought into line only then to see everything change again a year later, that causes the frustration.

The differences are the 1st and second companies, and the inner circle command structure. DA get Deathwing and Ravenwing. C:SM get Vanguard, Sternguard, 10 man Terminator Squads with 2 heavy weapons, and scout bikes (although I can see an argument for DA having these). Add in a chapter trait and this is fine for the differences. Having different rules for storm shields, different scout stats, and different venerable dreads to name just a few examples seems completely out of sync with the fluff.

Now change is necessary from a business point of view as well as refining the rules to improve the game overall. I think it would just be good if from now on GW do what they can to keep things that should be the same background wise consistent across the ruleset, if for no other reason than to get a high quality, logically consistent ruleset. If DA are competitive still (which I believe is the case) was it really necessary to play around with the scout stats and ven dread stats? With so many marine books would it make sense to have a standardised wargear book or perhaps as a section in the main rulebook so the stats are consistent? These are questions GW should be asking itself, I don't think DA players should be slated for asking them too.

HiveFleetEzekial
05-02-2009, 20:35
I think part of the problem is that DA are mostly a codex chapter. To quote the latest DA codex: "an outside observer would find it difficult to spot any differences between the Dark Angels and a Chapter rigidly organized according to the Codex, such as Ultramarines". It is this combined with the fact that DA players know they will have to wait until the end of the release cycle until they are brought into line only then to see everything change again a year later, that causes the frustration.

Add in to that, that we had to pay to beta-test their 'new idea' (whih they [i]promised[/i[ the 40k community as a whole would be the 'new direction' of following codexes, SM ones specificaly), then they turn right around and dump most of it, just because they had a bad fiscal year (at the same time practically the entire world did! . Hellow GW, you weren't the only ones to hit a low at that time, it wasn't a 'fault' of the DA codexes design :P ). It *should* be easy to see why alot of DA players are miffed. (but some just can't grasp it, it seems :\ )

self biased
05-02-2009, 20:44
Having different rules for storm shields, different scout stats, and different venerable dreads to name just a few examples seems completely out of sync with the fluff.

and really, this is the nuts and bolts of it.

electricwolf
05-02-2009, 20:54
Aye, they were a bit miffed, but seriously, I have never seen a more whiny bunch of players than Dark Angel players. I've not seen any Space Wolf Players whining about how we have Ld9 Psychics, or no Free Frag and Krak, or no Free Special Weapons, or how we pay old Points (RAW) for Rhinos and Razorbacks.

No, why? Because we shrug and get on with life (I personally couldn't care less, at least WE'LL get a new codex with the Updated rules come December, unlike the Emo Marines who will be waiting years :))

I take offense to that remark. I like the way Dark Angels are currently. Yes they don't benefit from things in the new codex but Hell they are the oldest chapter there is, why wouldn't they trust older equipment more.

I have never once whined about the DA codex. If i want to use the new equipment ill play apocalypse where i can use anything i want to use. I'll just paint it differently. Also most of the people i play with wouldn't care less if i used the redeemer in my 11,000pt Dark Angel army.

To me there is no point in whining, i don't make the rules or the game and i choose to play and collect it. If i really didn't like it i'd play and collect something else. I have loved Dark Angels for 12yrs now and don't see myself ever switching to another chapter.

Earthbeard
05-02-2009, 21:05
As long as the internet runs, there'll be DA players whining.

/sigh

HiveFleetEzekial
05-02-2009, 21:50
Just as there'll always be people who can't tell the difference between the whiners whines, and the actual, structured, factual, and senseable complaints of the majority of the real players. No matter the army.

:P 'sigh'

Grubnar
05-02-2009, 22:00
This isn't a wine as to why Dark Angles don't have 3+ invulnerable storm shields its ... a wide spread problem with the varying imperium armies.

You are wrong. This is just a whine.

Hankyaku
05-02-2009, 22:24
Actually, in the middle of the thread I was hoping that this thread won't turn to a"all the DA players are whiners because they didn't get the new stuff, just s*ck up dammit!" thread, but in the last few comments it does.

Summing it, as another "whining DA player", what GW does is a shame. We are of the Imperium, we are Space Marines (hardly distinguishable from the rest), we get our stuff from the same armory. So why is that for example, that the GK get a Heavy 3 AC? Why is that that their Inquisitorial Rhino costs a lot more, than ours? Why do also Witchhunter have different Rhinos? How does the DA smoke launcher allow a glance hit only, while the chapter launcher gives a cover save?

These are just general questions, which signify why GW's rule policy is a shame. I agree with Ixquic. The DA aren't underpowered. But the new SM rules are overpowered. The DA are so unique, you can't change your Foc... hm... let me just look at the Captain entry, and the bike option... oooh.... bikes as troops? And 8 for less points than the 6 pieces of the DA bikers? And you can bring in 15 termies with DP assault if you wish, or even DP 30 with your scout biker squad. OH much better, with 3+SS?

For the record: I play DA when I wish to play with bikers and termie troops, or pure bikers. If I want to play anything else, I use the new SM codex (and give fleet+a nice juicy 3+SS to my termies).

So frankly I really like the ideas of the DA codex. When it arrived, it contained a chapter which is a bit more expensive then a codex chapter, had the same equipment, different upgrade costs (vehicles), and unique options (like SM traits, but bound to characters). So at that time they felt SM, as they are SM. But now they're like elementary school kids, when we take ordinary SM tactics. Also their specialities can mostly be replicated (or something similar except for the troop termies!).

So I agree with Ixquic. At the time we hated the 3rd ed DA codex, as it was more like a supplement to the SM codex. Creating such a supplement online wouldn't have been a huge effort at all. That could clear so many-many rules and equipment, contradictions, and else. It worked before, so why wouldn1t it work now? And the reasoning that 'not everybody has net access'... c'mon...I'm sure that the local GW guys would be happy to print it for anybody, if that's the case.
Also the WD contained army lists in the past. Also the BA are in WD as well... So why would it be so hard to include such things in a WD volume?

Either way, shame, shame, GW, instead of concentrating on the sales only, do the rules and codex upgrade work, or LET THE PLAYERS DO A PART OF THAT JOB!

(BTW: a good method of bringing in line the DA termie issue with ordinary SM when giving all the equipment, letting the termies be taken as troop choices, but _wouldn't_ be able to score! In that case a pure termie army wouldn't have a scoring unit - so much about powergaming.)

the1stpip
05-02-2009, 22:55
Um, yeah, because the 4th ed Marine codex came out when?

We've been needing an update since at least then. It is the Oldest codex in use and its about bloody time. (no Dark Eldar is NOT older, they got a second printing that added a ton of stuff and Wytch Cults, making it newer than the Space Wolves)

Sorry, yes Dark Eldar are the oldest codex, as Space Wolves still get to use the brand new Space Marine Book.

Sorry to digress off point there.

The Clairvoyant
05-02-2009, 23:23
I'm not really sure what the complaints are about.

I just read the Dark Angel FAQ and GWs response seems perfectly fine - "dark angels haven't been updated yet, but if you want to use updated stuff then go ahead, but check with your opponent cos technically its not whats in the main book"

Its no different from a vampire player in fantasy saying to his opponent "i've got these skeleton bowmen and i want to borrow the rules from the tomb king army, do you mind if i do that? I even have the bases painted green instead of desert brown" As per the armies book, no he can't, but fluff-wise there is no reason why a VC player can't have skellies with bows.

For me, i wouldn't mind if a DA player decided he wanted to use the normal marine book for certain options

JCOLL
05-02-2009, 23:39
I want to chime in here for a second. I am a Dark Angels player. I love them. They're my boys. I am not whinning that I didn't get all the groovy stuff that was in the new SM codex. If I wanted to use that stuff I'd just make a new army. Are there any other non-whinning DA players? I thought this game was about tactics, not "we'll his guys have better stuff than my guys!" Use what you have to get the job done! Sheesh.

Gorbad Ironclaw
05-02-2009, 23:41
Yes they don't benefit from things in the new codex but Hell they are the oldest chapter there is, why wouldn't they trust older equipment more.

This doesn't, IMO, make any sense. It's not like they are significantly older than any of the other Legions, they have never been shown as being old fashioned when it comes to equipment and that it just plain don't make sense that the same piece of equipment works differently depending on if it's painted blue or green.

Anyway, my issue isn't really with the new gear, it's more that I can take the exact army I used to run under the DA book and get it better and cheaper with the generic marine book. That bothers me I have to say.

Still, I'm happy with my Orks so I don't mind that my Dark Angels are living in a cupboard. They fit in nicely next to the Eldar army I own that I don't want to play with either.

Toe Cutter
06-02-2009, 01:13
Meh. Games workshop have, in their wooly way, said that as long as you get your opponents permission then yes you can borrow stuff from the new codex. In short its not really an issue until you get to tournament play.

Personally, as a new convert to the deathwing, I dislike the new marine rules for storm shields rather intensely and will not be playing with them ever.

But then I'm well used to getting the shaft, my main army is imperial guard.

Arcadian
06-02-2009, 02:03
Personally, while it adds little to the current discussion, I have to admit that I am a DA player who uses a rather generic DA list.. smatterings of DW and RW, but really more than anything else its a lot of troops.. so its pretty much a mainstream SM army. I considered brielfy using the new SM codex, but to be honest, after some thought, decided not to. Even had to order a new DA codex as I think I loaned my old one out during my down time..

SimonL
06-02-2009, 02:48
To start, not a DA player...I do believe they (and BA, GK, etc) should have the SAME stats for the SAME wargear. It is foolish to have such wildly different stats for the same item; different saves for storm shields, different capacity for LRs, etc. This includes the detrimental updates too, Psychic Hoods should drop to 24" range, etc.

Dark Angels should not have access to the new units however. There is a reason why there are different Chapter books, because they are each unique...

ruttman15
06-02-2009, 02:58
y'know i looked at the title of the thread and wondered, "what's the dark angels shtick?"
then i realized i had misread. and i have no idea, but i would say a hesitant yes, as they do not get the new weapon upggrades just yet. storm shields for example.

Hankyaku
06-02-2009, 09:25
To start, not a DA player...I do believe they (and BA, GK, etc) should have the SAME stats for the SAME wargear. It is foolish to have such wildly different stats for the same item; different saves for storm shields, different capacity for LRs, etc. This includes the detrimental updates too, Psychic Hoods should drop to 24" range, etc.

Dark Angels should not have access to the new units however. There is a reason why there are different Chapter books, because they are each unique...

Same opinion here. I also think that the wargear should be the same (not just DA), no new units (to all the other SM non codex chapters), but some adjustment to the point costs based on C:SM. Also refer to my comment on termies as troops (as Troop in the FoC, but non-scoring).

Marshal Sinclair
06-02-2009, 10:12
Does nobody see a problem with Dark Angels players having access to 3++ Storm Shields? 11 squads of Terminators with 2+/3++ saves...

mughi3
06-02-2009, 10:26
I suppose i should chime in here as a long time deathwing player.

time for a little chronology.

Back in 3rd edition(3.5 to be exact) every single sub-chapter of marines had their own special rules that appeared in their mini-dex's that made the all very unique but also still marines because many of the core entries simply said-"see codex space marine entry for "blank"

4th edition came along and GW dcided to go with a new design approach-one codex to rule them all, or to put it better, you don't need to buy multiple codexes to play your army.

Now when i saw the 4th ed FAQ for my DAs i thought it wouldn't be bad as i assumed many of those things would be in the new dex. I was so very wrong.

The new dex came out and it was a streamlined simplified and balanced codex. it miffed alot of us that we lost many of the special rules that made us different than " blue marines" but we were assured that it was going to happen to all the dex's since we were all "codex marines" afterall and soon everybody would be on a level playing field.

So we buried the axe and went along with it, because for a few releases this proved to be the case.

The 5th edition was released. now lets be clear C: DA was written for 4th editon, while it has many items that foreshadowed changes for 5th it was not designed for the new edition.

In their infinite wisdom of design philosophy GW decided to go back and change yet again their flagship marine codex even though it was one of the newest. But instead of staying with the path they planned starting with C: DA they took a sharp left turn and overpowered the codex with heaps of fanboy love.

So here is where we have the problem-
game balance.
most every other marine dex was given some or most of the new rules/equipment from C:SM which was fine since we are all supposed to be "codex marines" with a very few exceptions C:SM can do everything the DA codex can do for less points with better rules save a pure deathwing army. Even then pure deathwing armies also suffer from outdated rules.

What GW has effectively done is given any player with a DA army using the DA codex a handicap in points and rules when compared to C: SMs

To rub salt into the wounds-
We recieved an early FAQ telling us there would be no further updates and that while we really should be using the newest rules we had to get permission to do so and tournaments were a straight out no-go.

It would not have been hard to fix the rules updates and points costs changes but instead the design team in their tireless effort decided that they couldn't be bothered and you can make up any rules your opponant is ok with. which begs the question...why do these guys get paid to design, test and make rules? why do we need to buy a rulebook if we can just make it up on the fly? Whats the point of a 5 paragraph errata that basically fixes nothing?


I know how hard i was screwed when i faced a space wolf player at the last GT i went to and the conversation went something like this-

SW-
"you gonna drop pod assault with your podding dreads?
me-
"nope we can't do that"
SW-
"isn't your machine spirit BS 4?"
me-
"nope we didn't get that"
SW-
"stormshields are a 3+ save now"
me-
"not for us, we still have to use the old rules"
SW-
"so what did you get from C: SM with the update?, we got X, Y and Z"
me-
"nothing"
SW-
"nothing at all?"
me-
"nope nothing at all, wanna see the FAQ?"
SW-
"*looks at FAQ* "ok i'm gonna stop asking now"

mughi3
06-02-2009, 10:28
Does nobody see a problem with Dark Angels players having access to 3++ Storm Shields? 11 squads of Terminators with 2+/3++ saves...
You mean like the 30 C: SM can have that can combat squad if need be, with master crafted hammers thanks to vulkan for less points and a couple cheap scout squads to fill the troop requirements?

HiveFleetEzekial
06-02-2009, 10:33
Does nobody see a problem with Dark Angels players having access to 3++ Storm Shields? 11 squads of Terminators with 2+/3++ saves...

No.

So what? Terminators aren't the only tings that can carry strom shields. How'bout normal power armoured guys that can run around with them..? How about SM's own, possible 3 squads of 10 termies each running around with them. If we're not doing DW specifically, all we can et is 15 from the same 3 squads. And, except for the truely fluff armies, or people wanting a challenge, most don't play pure DW to 'take advantage' of having 46 guys. We need our RW out there to guide them safely, considering they're our only source of homers. (unlike SM who have.. more sources than can be counted on one hand! And oh yeah, they're 'homers' work on any kind of deepstriking, not just teleports, like ours.)


You want to talk about problems.. Fine. What about an army that can take 6 dreadnoughts, of any of their new variants. How about an entire army full of infiltrators/outflanking with fleet. A marine army that can call down two orbital bombardments in a single turn. A marine army that can DP nearly everything in, and have half of it come in on the first turn, with a heck of alot more safely rate than our own (and original) DWA. The list of all their shiney new 'advantages' oes on.

-edit- Thanks mughi3

You mean like the 30 C: SM can have that can combat squad if need be, with master crafted hammers thanks to vulkan for less points and a couple cheap scout squads to fill the troop requirements?
-edit-


Balancing storm shields out, at the least, would hardly be an embalance. So please, don't even try to give us such a line of crap like that!

IJW
06-02-2009, 10:52
And you can bring in 15 termies with DP assault if you wish,
The SM codex doesn't let Terminators take Drop Pods.

HiveFleetEzekial
06-02-2009, 10:57
Neither does ours...

Leo
06-02-2009, 11:09
hm,

back in the days when the Dark Angels Codex was released it offered combat squads, free grenades and cheaper Rhino and Razorbacks with built-in vehicle equipment to boot, but I donīt seem to remember any Dark Angel player complaining about any 'inconsistency problems' with that.
Also when GW removed all the fancy weapon options from Dreadnoughts supposedly because there no models for them they made a special permittance for Dark Angels because they are the Plasmachapter. No single DA player found anything wrong with this.
Understandable though.
Dark Angels are the 'firsterestet and besterestet' after all, they should have better stuff than the 'stupid nilla smurfs'.

Only with the new Codex when all of a sudden this golden rule was broken, the inconsistencies seem to cause irritations.
Surprising, isnīt it?

Best of luck to the guys with the Green Space Marines. The day may come soon, when your stuff is again better then those crappy Blue Marines.

In the mean time feel free to complain about it loud and often.

mughi3
06-02-2009, 11:11
The SM codex doesn't let Terminators take Drop Pods.

Nope but they can infiltrate and fleet with shrike or flank march with the khan etc....


unless your playing pure deathwing(or even a little mixed in ravenwing) there really is no reason to use the dark angels codex now as the SM codex does almost everything else better and cheaper.

mughi3
06-02-2009, 11:19
Ah
Leo i see you totally missed my post.

It has nothing to do with "the besterestet" in 3rd we had plasma cannons in our tac squads because we were an "older chapter" with more access to the ancient plasma tech that hardly made us better, perhaps just more suicidal.

This isn't whining for the sake of complaining, this is a matter of factual reality that the change in codex design has taken a left turn from what should have been a level playing field and made the DA codex weaker by comparison simply by making units cheaper in the new codex with better rules for stock standard equipment.

Many people still love the fluff and look of the dark angels but this is a case where fluff and game rules collide and do not work well together.

Sir_Turalyon
06-02-2009, 12:10
You mean like the 30 C: SM can have that can combat squad if need be, with master crafted hammers thanks to vulkan for less points and a couple cheap scout squads to fill the troop requirements?

That's two easy to kill scoring units, and plenty of non-scoring, hard to kill but sluggish and unable to protect scouts Terminators - an army that can score a draw at best in 2 of 3 scenarios.

With Deathwing, we are talking about fearless scoring units with 2+/3+ save. Once they reach the objective they claim it until thay are all killed. Then there are company veterans, who when given ultramarines stormshields would become more powerful version of Legion of the Damned (3+/3+ save, 2 attacks, bolters/pistol, special weapon, up to three powerfists/lightning claws and heavy weapon if you feel like using one) while costing no more then LotD itself. Then Belial, who'd be a steal at his current price with his stormshield just upgraded to ultramarines one without price adjustments.

In short, Space Wolves borrow ultramarine rules because their mini-dex was written like that, DA don't have to.



Many people still love the fluff and look of the dark angels but this is a case where fluff and game rules collide and do not work well together.

Don't they? The DA list still does work, it just has emphasis put in different places then Ultramarines one, which isn't a bad thing. I was under impression that since Codex:Angels of Death in Dark Angels fluff Deathwing and Ravenwing were ones who did all cool things, with Codex-following rest of companies doing boring line duties, most often diging themselves up and repeling /containing enemies. Ultramarines fluff, on the other hand, alwas put emphasis on tactical squads as cornerstones of their Codex organisation - no wonder it's them and not us who got special treatment for tactical squads. Free heavy weapon (special weapon cost is included in extra five marines) is a good way to make ultras look like specialising in something, rather then vanilla marines they used to be. It was only 3rd edition codex that briefly gave us plasma cannons, when studio wanted to make us look special but had no idea how to do it in fluffy way.

Differences in vehicle costs are puzzling, but IA2 update solved that part. Assault squads are matter of codex balance - Ultramarine ones are cheaper, but they have to be as they compete for fast slot with Vanguards. Our assault squads are our only jumppack troops, and price reflects that. Our devastators don't have signum and have fixed squad sizes, but when at full strength and using combat squads they are ussualy cheaper. Rest of units (Ravenwing, Scouts, Veterans) work differently from their ultramarines equivalents fluffwise, and their price / rules reflect that.

Fianally, our characters fit our fluff and make our units work differently. Our masters actualy command in battle. Our chaplains are not wusses. Our Librarians are close combat badasses.

cowie165
06-02-2009, 12:30
I want to chime in here for a second. I am a Dark Angels player. I love them. They're my boys. I am not whinning that I didn't get all the groovy stuff that was in the new SM codex. If I wanted to use that stuff I'd just make a new army. Are there any other non-whinning DA players? I thought this game was about tactics, not "we'll his guys have better stuff than my guys!" Use what you have to get the job done! Sheesh.

+1. Well said mate. If I want to use the new codex, I'll go buy some bland marines. Until then, having the DA scouts, DA ven dreads, and DA PotMS works for me. I'll make my boys work harder rather than sweat someone else having shinier toys.


And before people get too excited about a FAQ saying you can use C:SM if your opponent agrees to it, the BRB says to do that for ANY rule you don't like... it was just GW restating the obvious.

HiveFleetEzekial
06-02-2009, 12:36
No... It's just GW being lazy.

Ixquic
06-02-2009, 12:45
hm,

back in the days when the Dark Angels Codex was released it offered combat squads, free grenades and cheaper Rhino and Razorbacks with built-in vehicle equipment to boot, but I donīt seem to remember any Dark Angel player complaining about any 'inconsistency problems' with that.
Also when GW removed all the fancy weapon options from Dreadnoughts supposedly because there no models for them they made a special permittance for Dark Angels because they are the Plasmachapter. No single DA player found anything wrong with this.
Understandable though.
Dark Angels are the 'firsterestet and besterestet' after all, they should have better stuff than the 'stupid nilla smurfs'.

Only with the new Codex when all of a sudden this golden rule was broken, the inconsistencies seem to cause irritations.
Surprising, isnīt it?

Best of luck to the guys with the Green Space Marines. The day may come soon, when your stuff is again better then those crappy Blue Marines.

In the mean time feel free to complain about it loud and often.

Yeah the pretty obvious difference is that the 4th ed Dark Angels codex was supposed to be the standard setter. So those advantages were going to be incorporated into the new Marine Codex and they would have them too. As I have been told it's SUCH a huge effort for GW to release timely updates so it's understandable there's a lag between the Dark Angels foot in the water codex and the vanilla Marine codex that was supposed to be based on it.

Now since GW puts out army books every 3-5 years, Dark Angel players are going to be stuck with an inferior list until they eventually release the new 5th ed codex for them. That's the difference here. There's also a pretty big gap between cheaper rhinos and grenades (which regular Marines were getting anyway) and the benefits of the new Marine book. Also don't forget the benefits of the old trait system that Dark Angels didn't get to take advantage off so don't act like the 4th edition Dark Angels book was overpowered compared to the normals.


Ah
Leo i see you totally missed my post.

It has nothing to do with "the besterestet" in 3rd we had plasma cannons in our tac squads because we were an "older chapter" with more access to the ancient plasma tech that hardly made us better, perhaps just more suicidal.

This isn't whining for the sake of complaining, this is a matter of factual reality that the change in codex design has taken a left turn from what should have been a level playing field and made the DA codex weaker by comparison simply by making units cheaper in the new codex with better rules for stock standard equipment.

Many people still love the fluff and look of the dark angels but this is a case where fluff and game rules collide and do not work well together.

Seriously I don't know why it's so hard for some people to grasp. The old book is balanced around a different standard so it's no longer balanced. Do you guys want to break out the 2nd edition books with 30 point marines and claim there'll be no problems since it was fine at the time?


No... It's just GW being lazy.

It wasn't only lazy but wishy-washy and stupid. "Your opponent should be a nice guy and let you use the new stuff because of the most important rule, but if you use it you'll have an advantage so you are HONOR-BOUND not to use it." I mean that's the dumbest thing I've heard since it's their job to decide what is fair not put it players hands to house rule everything and then be guilty because maybe their 3+ storm shields are giving them an unfair advantage.

Marshal Sinclair
06-02-2009, 13:00
It just seems to me that people want the best bits from different books. I'd love for my Guard to get Flyrants, Howling Banshees, and Ork Boys. Do you think if I complain loudly enough these things from completely different books will get FAQed into mine?

Ixquic
06-02-2009, 13:05
It just seems to me that people want the best bits from different books. I'd love for my Guard to get Flyrants, Howling Banshees, and Ork Boys. Do you think if I complain loudly enough these things from completely different books will get FAQed into mine?

How many times do people have to say this is not the case before you guys stop trotting it out like it's true?

Marshal Sinclair
06-02-2009, 13:07
Seriously I don't know why it's so hard for some people to grasp. The old book is balanced around a different standard so it's no longer balanced. Do you guys want to break out the 2nd edition books with 30 point marines and claim there'll be no problems since it was fine at the time?

The book was balanced internally. You need to stop thinking of it as an extention of the standard Marine book. It's a completely different book.

If you wanted to bring back 2nd Ed books as an example of stuff being weak, you made the wrong example. Massively powerful psychic powers, popup attacks, void/plasma/psychout (etc) grenades, massive armour values. With most 2nd Ed books you could make a list that would walk all over any modern one, simply because the options are completely different.

See the last part of the previous paragraph? "the options are completely different" That applies between Codex: Dark Angles, and Codex: Marines. Marines don't get a lot of the options available to Dark Angles, and Dark Angles don't get a lot of the options available to Dark Angles. Just like they don't get access to Dark Eldar, Tyranid or Necron stuff. It's exactly the same.


How many times do people have to say this is not the case before you guys stop trotting it out like it's true?

Well I'm not seeing any real argument that amounts to anything more than that. :rolleyes:

Ixquic
06-02-2009, 13:17
The book was balanced internally. You need to stop thinking of it as an extention of the standard Marine book. It's a completely different book.

If you wanted to bring back 2nd Ed books as an example of stuff being weak, you made the wrong example. Massively powerful psychic powers, popup attacks, void/plasma/psychout (etc) grenades, massive armour values. With most 2nd Ed books you could make a list that would walk all over any modern one, simply because the options are completely different.

See the last part of the previous paragraph? "the options are completely different" That applies between Codex: Dark Angles, and Codex: Marines. Marines don't get a lot of the options available to Dark Angles, and Dark Angles don't get a lot of the options available to Dark Angles. Just like they don't get access to Dark Eldar, Tyranid or Necron stuff. It's exactly the same.

Vortex Grenades, super psykic powers, etc were all add-ons from Dark Millennium and not part of the books; they wouldn't be allowed under the current rule set so no they don't get to apply (unless you convince your opponent to allow you a Psykic phase). Anyway you're making my point since if that 2nd edition book is overpowered, it's NOT BALANCED within context of the current books.

If you can't see how Marines are all balanced around each other that's your issue. It's obvious that the Dark Angels codex was a sample of how the design of all marines was going to go. When the new book came out and that was radically changed, the old Dark Angels is now weaker. The stupid GW excuse of how they are making all books independent is irrelevant. Within context of this game marines are all roughly similar so when one set gets to use gear that is dramatically better than the other without some sort of qualifier, there's a problem. It doesn't matter if guard can't use spineguants because they didn't have spinegaunts in the first place. We have a situation where one army has 3+ inv storm shields and the others' are weaker simply because the company is too lazy to go back and fix the issue, which they acknowledge exists but place it in the hands of their customers to deal with.



Well I'm not seeing any real argument that amounts to anything more than that. :rolleyes:

It's not my fault that you have poor reading comprehension then.

mughi3
06-02-2009, 13:19
I was under impression that since Codex:Angels of Death in Dark Angels fluff Deathwing and Ravenwing were ones who did all cool things, with Codex-following rest of companies doing boring line duties, most often diging themselves up and repeling /containing enemies.
Actually they were 3 seperate armies in one codex who all had thier restrictions on build types.


Ultramarines fluff, on the other hand, alwas put emphasis on tactical squads as cornerstones of their Codex organisation - no wonder it's them and not us who got special treatment for tactical squads. Free heavy weapon (special weapon cost is included in extra five marines) is a good way to make ultras look like specialising in something, rather then vanilla marines they used to be.
Actually team blue can specialise in any way they want now dependant on which special characters you roll with.


Differences in vehicle costs are puzzling, but IA2 update solved that part.
Except that little problem of most tournament judges not allowing any FW units. sure our private groups can and have done what we needed to do to fix things, doesn't mean GW has.


Fianally, our characters fit our fluff and make our units work differently. Our masters actualy command in battle. Our chaplains are not wusses. Our Librarians are close combat badasses.
They most certainly do not.
ANY member of the inner circle by fluff can lead the deathwing, instead we get one of the most bland "special" characters out there. our librarians have the wrong powers, if anything it should be weaken resolve as per our fluff. what they do have is a joke. our best special character is hands down sammael since he is the only one immune to instant death (plus his bike and other goodies).




It just seems to me that people want the best bits from different books. I'd love for my Guard to get Flyrants, Howling Banshees, and Ork Boys. Do you think if I complain loudly enough these things from completely different books will get FAQed into mine?
Then you have missed the point of this topic.

It isn't the best bits from different armies. space marines are space marines especially when they are all supposedly "codex" this isn't about different gear, it's the same exact gear with different rules and points cost. it would be like saying your cadian IG have a seperate codex from steel legion and because steel legion, while stll being IG, have a newer dex, it makes their leman russ's AV 14/14/12 and BS4 oh and with a points cost drop as well.

Brimstone
06-02-2009, 13:19
Haven't we had this thread before?

Marshal Sinclair
06-02-2009, 13:23
Then you have missed the point of this topic.

It isn't the best bits from different armies. space marines are space marines especially when they are all supposedly "codex" this isn't about different gear, it's the same exact gear with different rules and points cost. it would be like saying your cadian IG have a seperate codex from steel legion and because steel legion, while stll being IG, have a newer dex, it makes their leman russ's AV 14/14/12 and BS4 oh and with a points cost drop as well.

Am I to assume that Dark Angles want to use the rules from another book because they have wargear and units with the same name?

Ah, I see.

Shall I now allow my Tau opponents to use Pathfinders from the Eldar book then?

DURENDIN
06-02-2009, 13:26
As one of the many mugs that shelled out for a Dark Angels army I would have been happy if they'd dumped the 4th Ed Dark Angels Codex and added Belial and Samuel as Special Characters to the new Codex Space Marines.

When you think about it the effect they have are pretty the main swing of what makes the Dark Angels slightly different from other Marine armies (Terminators and Bikes as troops). Hell, only the former need matter now as all Bike armies are better and cheaper under Codex Space Marines.

Aladin_sane
06-02-2009, 13:32
As one of the many mugs that shelled out for a Dark Angels army I would have been happy if they'd dumped the 4th Ed Dark Angels Codex and added Belial and Samuel as Special Characters to the new Codex Space Marines.

Yeah I would have settled for that to.

Ixquic
06-02-2009, 13:40
Am I to assume that Dark Angles want to use the rules from another book because they have wargear and units with the same name?

Ah, I see.

Shall I now allow my Tau opponents to use Pathfinders from the Eldar book then?

It's pretty clear that most people here want GW to simply update the codex or release a PDF which brings Codex Dark Angels in line with Codex Space Marines not just give them the best of both books. Regardless of how clever you think your argument is storm shields that Dark Angels use and storm shields that Space Marines use are supposed to be exactly the same unless you can point me to where in their backstory Dark Angels use inferior gear.

Regardless of how you want to think every book is totally independent of one another, this is a game where story heavily influences the rules so the situation where identical gear acts differently (you may not realize this but Eldar pathfinders and Tau pathfinders are not the same thing WOW) is stupid and needs to be fixed. This does not mean that Dark Angels get every benefit of vanilla marines while getting every benefit of the 4th edition book or whatever stupid strawmen arguments you keep bringing up.

Marshal Sinclair
06-02-2009, 13:49
But giving the Dark Angels all the good wargear from the Marine book will make them very powerful. Thunderhammer terminators in the Marine book are hard enough to deal with without them being scoring units as well. If you can land 50 Terminators directly on the objectives, who will never run away and will be insanely difficult to kill (I'd go so far as to say the only army that stands a snowballs chance in hell of moving them is Orks, and even then I am not sure), you have an army that will never lose a game as they just force a draw if they can't win.

Ixquic
06-02-2009, 14:01
I agree which is why reasonable people don't want to just give DA all the good stuff to use with the old book. They just want to use the main book with some edits for the chapter specific stuff (fearless non-core terminators are work X points more for models and so on). Like you said giving them the options of taking the all Deathwing army along with the 3+ storm shields without any balances on that would be unfair. However I think a good deal of Dark Angels players are fine with giving up some of the 4th ed codex benefits in order to bring their army into step with 5th edition marines.

Hellfury
06-02-2009, 14:55
unless your playing pure deathwing(or even a little mixed in ravenwing) there really is no reason to use the dark angels codex now as the SM codex does almost everything else better and cheaper.

I agree. As a person who once poo-pooed the newest DA codex very very loudly, I can say that if you are playing a mixed deathwing ravenwing force, it is actually a really good list in the current environment. Something I thought I would never say about the DA codex.

I say current environment because it effectiveness could easily change as the so called 'metagame' changes.

The new space marine codex does offer a lot more viable options that are more effective for the points you pay than what the DA offer, lacking specialization of DW RW units.

Marshal Sinclair
06-02-2009, 15:01
So the Marine Codex is more better than the Dark Angels one, if you ignore half the Dark Angels book? Ah, gotcha.

Hellfury
06-02-2009, 15:07
So the Marine Codex is more better than the Dark Angels one, if you ignore half the Dark Angels book? Ah, gotcha.

Is that a response to my post?

If so then you misunderstand me and your statement is also pure hyperbole.

Two units (deathwing terminators and Ravenwing attack squadrons) an two special characters (belial, sammael) do not make up half a codex.

Besides those two types of units, the new space marine codex is in fact much better* than the DA codex.

*Better = more options and flexibility ...along with about a 10% price reduction than what the DA codex offers.

TheLionReturns
06-02-2009, 17:19
You need to stop thinking of it as an extention of the standard Marine book. It's a completely different book.


I think you need to stop thinking of the DA codex as completely separate from C:SM. They may be different books but they contain units and wargear that are meant to be identical in terms of the fluff.



Shall I now allow my Tau opponents to use Pathfinders from the Eldar book then?


I know of no fluff that suggests that these units are identical. I think it is pretty well established that Imperial wargear is manufactured in a very rigid and inflexible way. Storm shields are meant to be the same.



But giving the Dark Angels all the good wargear from the Marine book will make them very powerful. Thunderhammer terminators in the Marine book are hard enough to deal with without them being scoring units as well. If you can land 50 Terminators directly on the objectives, who will never run away and will be insanely difficult to kill (I'd go so far as to say the only army that stands a snowballs chance in hell of moving them is Orks, and even then I am not sure), you have an army that will never lose a game as they just force a draw if they can't win.

I quite agree but rather than say C:SM storm shields are different to codex DA ones why not leave the rules the same. If GW felt that storm shields needed a boost to make them a more vaible option how about making it 4+. A boost but perhaps one that doesn't overpower DA. The point is that as far as marines are concerned when each codex is designed the consistency with and impact upon other marine codexes should be considered.

the1stpip
06-02-2009, 17:35
We have a local DA player, and I have told him quite simply.

You can either use a) the Dark Angels Codex, or b) the Space Marine Codex.

He cannot use the Dark Angels codex with all the sparkly new stuff tacked on.

Otherwise, my Dark Eldar army wants Fire Prisms, Harlies, Vypers, etc, as they are the same arce, why can't I have them.

Each codex is designed to be balanced within itself. They get bonuses that Vanilla Marnies dont get. If you dont like the codex, use the SM one.


I know of no fluff that suggests that these units are identical. I think it is pretty well established that Imperial wargear is manufactured in a very rigid and inflexible way. Storm shields are meant to be the same.

So why the differences in things such as Russes and Baneblades, depending on the Forge World they were built on.

Different Forge Worlds (and therefore different Space Marine Armouries) have different abilities, different resources and different ways of doing things. Of course there is going to be differences.

HsojVvad
06-02-2009, 17:49
We have a local DA player, and I have told him quite simply.

You can either use a) the Dark Angels Codex, or b) the Space Marine Codex.

He cannot use the Dark Angels codex with all the sparkly new stuff tacked on.

Otherwise, my Dark Eldar army wants Fire Prisms, Harlies, Vypers, etc, as they are the same arce, why can't I have them.

Each codex is designed to be balanced within itself. They get bonuses that Vanilla Marnies dont get. If you dont like the codex, use the SM one.



So why the differences in things such as Russes and Baneblades, depending on the Forge World they were built on.

Different Forge Worlds (and therefore different Space Marine Armouries) have different abilities, different resources and different ways of doing things. Of course there is going to be differences.

You are correct. Use one or the other, or both. If the DA player can use 2 codices, then you can be able to use it as well.

ZOMGBBQ
06-02-2009, 17:55
You are correct. Use one or the other, or both. If the DA player can use 2 codices, then you can be able to use it as well.

So what if they are Playing Against Space Wolves with Allied Daemonhunters and Allied Whitchhunters? Does that mean my opponet can use Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Ultramarines, Codex: Necrons and Codex: Eldar all at once? :evilgrin:

HsojVvad
06-02-2009, 17:59
So what if they are Playing Against Space Wolves with Allied Daemonhunters and Allied Whitchhunters? Does that mean my opponet can use Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Ultramarines, Codex: Necrons and Codex: Eldar all at once? :evilgrin:


Yes why not? :D

but serious, SW can only use the new SM codex. There is now way they should be using the DA codex. How can that work? I would love to hear a good explanation of how this can happen legally. ;)

ZOMGBBQ
06-02-2009, 17:59
I think it is pretty well established that Imperial wargear is manufactured in a very rigid and inflexible way. Storm shields are meant to be the same.
Well then, as you broguht it up.

Prove it.

That's right I am calling you out on that claim.

Show me at least two (2) official cannon Games Workshop authorised (This means NOT Black Library) source that say each and every bit of Imperial Equipment ever made is the exact same.

Failure at this task includes, but is not limited to:
Making it up
Having someone else find it for you
Failing to back up your claims

Pre-emptive legal jargon: No the onus is not on me to prove that they are different, since I have never claimed either way.

Yes why not? :D

but serious, SW can only use the new SM codex. There is now way they should be using the DA codex. How can that work? I would love to hear a good explanation of how this can happen legally. ;)

Well no, we wouldn't want anything from Codex: Emos anyway, but I'm just saying you have to differentiate "Use one codex, its the rules" from "Use these four codex's because thems the rules because they are older than dirt and Games Workshop are as slow at updating rules as Microsoft are at patching security holes larger than ******.cx"

JagdWehrwolf
06-02-2009, 18:11
Well, as someone dragged Space Pups into this mess... There`s a lot of preachers of the "internal balance" theory. What shall You say about their codex? Why should they be allowed to get updates from the NEW Space Marines? It clearly will make them unballanced, won`t it?

Hellfury
06-02-2009, 18:40
I retract my earlier sentiments on how bad the DA codex is in comparison to the new SM codex.

After going through each unit entry, I have come to the personal conclusion that DA do have it better than the new SM. The list would be exhaustive to go over, but suffice to say that little things like Ven dreads being cheaper than SM version, all bikes having telly homers instead of just the sergeant (who has a much better locator beacon, but thats neither here nor there), more flexible termies, cheaper and a bit more survivable HQ's, better techmarines (not that anyone takes them), etc.

DA seem to offer a better synergy than the new SM does if I were to make the same army, even though it lacks the obscene amount of options and flexibility that the new SM have.

I have LOOOOONG harped on how cruddy the DA codex is, in a very spiteful manner. But just today after playing a couple games and really sitting down and doing comparisons in what both armies can do, I really think that the DA codex offers a lot that the SM codex really cannot, and vice versa.

I guess I am now considered a "DA is awesome" kool-aid drinker, but I think it is more than just blind fanboi-ism that has brought me to that conclusion because of my rather cynical skepticism.

In short, DA are getting the short end of the stick, but only because a lot of players wont give it anything else, myslf included.

I know my post wont change anyone else's mind regarding how well the two armies compare to each other, but I thought that I should post my thoughts since I have been such a whiner about the discrepancies the two armies share and give a little credit to the DA codex as it stands right now.

Hankyaku
06-02-2009, 19:07
hm,

back in the days when the Dark Angels Codex was released it offered combat squads, free grenades and cheaper Rhino and Razorbacks with built-in vehicle equipment to boot, but I donīt seem to remember any Dark Angel player complaining about any 'inconsistency problems' with that.


hm... Have you read that codex actually? I don't think so. While the DA got CSquads, bolt pistols, and the rest you've mentioned, most of the DA units were MORE EXPENSIVE than those of ordinary SM... the "free" stuff actually did cost us a lot of points. Ah, and did I forgot to mention handicapping the termies to 1 hvy per squad, and a total of 5?


In the mean time feel free to complain about it loud and often.
In the mean time please read before writing.

The rest: yes, DA should be given the equipment from the new SM codex (just as BA, BT, DH, WH - I won't mention SW). Along with that it shall get a PDF file which includes modifications to maintain the codex's internal balance and balance compared to other armies. This could include Belials termies being non scoring (but taken as Troops according to the FoC). Then I don't think anybody would have a word against that, am I right?
This was the only real point against giving DA the new stuff...

Leo
06-02-2009, 20:11
Ah
Leo i see you totally missed my post.


quite possible, I wasnīt responding to you in particular. I referred to the general mindset of the DA community that is displayed in internet forums.




It has nothing to do with "the besterestet" in 3rd we had plasma cannons in our tac squads because we were an "older chapter" with more access to the ancient plasma tech that hardly made us better, perhaps just more suicidal.


woah, you just totally made my point there.
So when Dark Angels get stuff and others donīt itīs ok because theyīre the 'besterestest', pardon, the 'olderestest' but when other chapters get stuff that you donīt itīs all of a sudden no fair, because the fluff says that youīre just better errh older?

Granted, a single weapon on a Dreadnought isnīt a big deal, still my point remains that no Dark Angel player found anything wrong with this particular case of unequal treatment. And this colours my view of the other comments from them especially since itīs always 'give us that stuff from the other Codex' wthout any 'we'll give something, too'.




This isn't whining for the sake of complaining, this is a matter of factual reality that the change in codex design has taken a left turn from what should have been a level playing field and made the DA codex weaker by comparison simply by making units cheaper in the new codex with better rules for stock standard equipment.


Well, not everything was made better. Besides even if we accept that the situation is so bad it still doesn't change the fact that DA players reacted smugly about them getting the Plasmaweaponry and the S6 power weapon for their commanders when normal chapter boys didn't. ('hey, we are better than you, just get over it')

Now that the situation is reverse you're met with the same attitude. Perhaps when the situation changes back again, which it tends to do in this game, you'll remember how that felt but I seriously doubt it.




Many people still love the fluff and look of the dark angels but this is a case where fluff and game rules collide and do not work well together.

Well, if people love the fluff of the Dark Angels so much, they surely don't mind using this Codex of theirs because it let's them built perfectly valid Dark Angel forces. But no, they look over and see that other Marines apparently have a more powerful Codex and all of a sudden the Dark Angels fluff isn't so hot anymore.
So they either complain or just switch over to the other book where the 'fluff' of theirs is better represented. After all 'fluffy' usually means 'as powerful on the tabletop as humanly possible', just ask any Iron Warriors player.

The really sad thing being, that you can represent a Dark Angel force pretty good with the basic Marine Codex, too. So whatīs the big deal, just use what works. I know a guy who represented his Ultramarines with the Dark Angels Codex back in the days before 5th Edition because he wanted combat squads. He just left out DA specific stuff and so you could hardly tell the difference.

HiveFleetEzekial
06-02-2009, 20:14
Show me at least two (2) official cannon Games Workshop authorised (This means NOT Black Library)

Sorry, but no matter how much you or anyone else likes it, BL stuff is just as official and cannon as everything else GW makes. We can disagree with it all we want, and ignore whatever we want. But it is official fluff.



Hellfury, either you're starting to not read things, or forgetting things..? Or you're just giving us ammo on purpose, to use as good counter points :D I really can't tell which. ;)


The list would be exhaustive to go over, but suffice to say that little things like Ven dreads being cheaper than SM version,

Nevermind that the stats, options, and abilities of ours are worse than the new SM ones... >_>


all bikes having telly homers instead of just the sergeant (who has a much better locator beacon, but thats neither here nor there),

Right. 'All our bikers have homers'.

Let's see, just how many units available to our army have bikes.

Ravenwing Attack Squadron. Total units: 1


Now, lets take a look at how many units SM have that can take homers/beacons.

Scout bike sergeants. Tactical squad sergeants. Scout sergeants. Anything that can take a drop pod (which includes: Dev squads, vanguard, assaut squads, normal; venerable; and ironclad dreadnoughts, sternguard, tactical squads, command squads, honour guard squads) Total units: (13!)

Then there's the fact that ours only work for our teleporting termies (if we even take any). Also, we don't have the option of not taking them. If we don't have DW along, those 'free' homers amount to wasted points.

SM, not only have the option to go without them, but can use their for [u]any[u] unit coming in, through any form of deep strike. We get one unit able to use them. SM get termies, pods, assault squads, things moving around through GoI. Pretty sure there's a few other deepstriking methods SM have left, too.


I can't even begin to fathom how anyone could come to the conclusion that we have better teleport homer options. :eyebrows:


more flexible termies,

A DW staple, since 2E. But we only get 5 men. (something else GW said was going to be carried over. But we see how they backed out on that.. :\ ) With using only elites, that's 15 guys compared to 30 SM could take. (and full DW only switches it to 45 to 30. though more like 30/30, as most DW will take some dreads as elites instead)


cheaper and a bit more survivable HQ's,

Exactly which HQ do you speak of here? We only have a grand total of 8 guys. SM have double that many HQ options, most with considerably better abilities.



better techmarines (not that anyone takes them)

Hah! :cheese: :p LOL Please, stop. You're killin' me with the jokes here. ;)

Ours can't bolster anything. Sure, ours has a 1 better W and A. Ours also costs an extra 50% of what SM techmarines do. For being cheaper, I'd say the loss on W and A (on a guy that shouldn't be seeing assaults anyways) for bolstering things, is a decent trade off.






It has nothing to do with "the besterestet" in 3rd we had plasma cannons in our tac squads because we were an "older chapter" with more access to the ancient plasma tech that hardly made us better, perhaps just more suicidal.

woah, you just totally made my point there.
So when Dark Angels get stuff and others donīt itīs ok because theyīre the 'besterestest', pardon, the 'olderestest' but when other chapters get stuff that you donīt itīs all of a sudden no fair, because the fluff says that youīre just better errh older?

No, we didn't have 'exclusive' access to tact squad plasma because we were oldest. That was just the BS excuse GW tried to spoon feed us (which was never founded in any of the fluff) to sugar coat it when they stripped us of many of our abilities from 2E, when they made the 3E codex. Which, they promptly gave back to SM when they got their 4E codex, making it nolonger 'exclusive' to us, again. It didn't make *us* suicidal. It made stupid 'bandwagon-jumpin-newbies' think all we were was an uber-shootie-plasma-death army, where all you did was point and click (and possibly go boom on your own end).

dean
06-02-2009, 20:24
woah, you just totally made my point there.
So when Dark Angels get stuff and others donīt itīs ok because theyīre the 'besterestest', pardon, the 'olderestest' but when other chapters get stuff that you donīt itīs all of a sudden no fair, because the fluff says that youīre just better errh older?

Let me make mughi3's point back at you.... DA were given the "Plasmaboy" boost in codex DA v3.5 when it was proven how much of a joke the 3.0 pamphlet was against regular SMs. It was a bone thrown to us because we were the "Worsterest*" space marines out there....

Meh, I've beat Space Marines 5.0 with my DA4.5 twice now. Ain't skeerd. Guess that means I drank the Green Kool Aid too. Are there still disparaties? Yes. Are all the "noobs" being seduced by the shiny bits and forgetting tactics? Yes.
If the SM players learn how to play their armies before DA gets a new codex then there may be problems but right now I give the edge to DA players.


*Ask any 3rd ed player and they will agree.... now can we get away from kindergartener words?

IJW
06-02-2009, 20:55
Exactly which HQ do you speak of here? We only have a grand total of 8 guys. SM have double that many HQ options, most with considerably better abilities.
The SM codex is supposed to represent a good 90% or more of all Marine Chapters* and not the limited number of Chapters that the DA codex represents. It should have more HQ options. Ability power level is another matter, though. :(

*Roughly speaking, everyone but DA, BA, BT, SW and their successor Chapters.

HiveFleetEzekial
06-02-2009, 21:00
I wasn't saying it shouldn't. Just asking which ones of ours were 'better' compaired to... whichever, ones of SM he thought didn't measure up to ours (considering all of the options SM HQ choices have).

Hellfury
06-02-2009, 21:13
Hellfury, either you're starting to not read things, or forgetting things..? Or you're just giving us ammo on purpose, to use as good counter points :D I really can't tell which. ;)
I know it may be really hard to beleive, but I am quite sincere.

Nevermind that the stats, options, and abilities of ours are worse than the new SM ones... >_>
Not in all cases.

Right. 'All our bikers have homers'.

Let's see, just how many units available to our army have bikes.

Ravenwing Attack Squadron. Total units: 1

Now, lets take a look at how many units SM have that can take homers/beacons.

Scout bike sergeants. Tactical squad sergeants. Scout sergeants. Anything that can take a drop pod (which includes: Dev squads, vanguard, assaut squads, normal; venerable; and ironclad dreadnoughts, sternguard, tactical squads, command squads, honour guard squads) Total units: (13!)

Then there's the fact that ours only work for our teleporting termies (if we even take any). Also, we don't have the option of not taking them. If we don't have DW along, those 'free' homers amount to wasted points.

SM, not only have the option to go without them, but can use their for [u]any[u] unit coming in, through any form of deep strike. We get one unit able to use them. SM get termies, pods, assault squads, things moving around through GoI. Pretty sure there's a few other deepstriking methods SM have left, too.

I can't even begin to fathom how anyone could come to the conclusion that we have better teleport homer options. :eyebrows:

But you forget that each bike has a homer, meaning that whatever squad teleports in can use which ever bike they want to measure from to deploy their termies, as opposed to just a single bike in a squad.

You also forgot that attackbikes are equipped with homers.

Also, I never said that DA homers were better. You will notice that I said that SM locator beacons were better. Ours are just a smidgen more flexible in the unit.

Big difference in the small details which are often overlooked when one is shown new shiney things that can distract a person easily.


A DW staple, since 2E. But we only get 5 men. (something else GW said was going to be carried over. But we see how they backed out on that.. :\ ) With using only elites, that's 15 guys compared to 30 SM could take. (and full DW only switches it to 45 to 30. though more like 30/30, as most DW will take some dreads as elites instead)

'Different' doe not equal 'better', IMO. Sure I would love to not be restricted to 5 man teams. To have the options SM termies get especially since I am restricted by squad size. But it isnt here nor there. We have what we have and you either use it and make it work, or you use the SM codex to see if the style suits you better. DW still work, and even better than be fore now due to not having such harsh restrictions as they once had.


Exactly which HQ do you speak of here? We only have a grand total of 8 guys. SM have double that many HQ options, most with considerably better abilities.

Belial is cheap as chips. Sure he isnt a wunderboy, but for his points cost, he gets a lot not to mention his mutability which is rare for a SC. Same for sammael, He is either a hit or miss type of SC, but if used correctly, he gets a lot done for his points cost, as unbeleivable as that may sound. SM pay quite a premium for their HQ's, and while they do get a lot more options to choose from, their default choices and the commensurate prices are indeed cheaper in DA on the whole.
But the term "Better" is subjective. Your opinion of better differs from mine, which is fine. But that doesn't invalidate my opinion either. I wouldn't say one is 'better' than the other, I would say instead 'different' which is what it is.


Hah! :cheese: :p LOL Please, stop. You're killin' me with the jokes here. ;)

Ours can't bolster anything. Sure, ours has a 1 better W and A. Ours also costs an extra 50% of what SM techmarines do. For being cheaper, I'd say the loss on W and A (on a guy that shouldn't be seeing assaults anyways) for bolstering things, is a decent trade off.
If you take more than a cynical moment to compare the two, you will see that while the DA techmarine is more expensive, it does have enhanced stats (the extra wound is a lot bigger than you give it credit for). Plasma cannon toting servitors that have a higher BS for 5 more points, multimelta and HB servitors with a higher BS that are cheaper than SM servitors, Servitors which lack the debilitating rule of mindlock found in the SM. All of which can be thrown into a transport unlike the SM variety.

Its just a matter if you want what the DA codex can do for you, or what the SM codex can to fit your certain style. There really is no right or wrong, better or worse when viewed in a something other than a vacuum which everyone seems to enjoy comparing in.

Really, the mocking tone isn't necessary to make your point, even though that is your prerogative.

I just don't feel the need to sling mud on other peoples opinions based on my own personal observations. What I know is enough, I care not if you share the same opinion. This is about the extent of an explanation that you will get out of me on this subject until the tone changes.

HiveFleetEzekial
06-02-2009, 21:52
I know it may be really hard to beleive, but I am quite sincere.

So was I. With a slightly jovial tone to it, ofcourse. Not 'hard to believe', I really couldn't tell, 100%.



But you forget that each bike has a homer, meaning that whatever squad teleports in can use which ever bike they want to measure from to deploy their termies, as opposed to just a single bike in a squad.

You also forgot that attackbikes are equipped with homers.

Also, I never said that DA homers were better. You will notice that I said that SM locator beacons were better. Ours are just a smidgen more flexible in the unit.

I didn't forget, nor contradict, that all our bikers (including AB's. they're 'bikers' too), in our only unit that has them, have homers. But your statement on them made it seem as if ours were 'so much better' simply because they're in the whole squad. Compared to SM who have as many sources for them, and the broader range of things that can actually take advantage of them, I'd hardly call ours 'more flexible'.

In a unit-unit comparison (which you didn't state, the first go-round), maybe (though the number of units who can home in on it tend to shift the balance back towards SM's favor). But homers in general, it's not even close.




'Different' does not equal 'better', IMO.

Never said it was better or worse. Just responded with what it was. :) Throwing it in as another example (to others) as one of the many promises GW failed to deliver on. Sure, I, too would like to have 10 man terminator squads. But I prefer my DW to be fluffy. I'd prefer, just as much, if GW'd kept all terminator squads 5 men, as the fluff states. But oh well... :\




Belial is cheap as chips. Sure he isnt a wonderboy, but for his points cost, he gets a lot not to mention his mutability which is rare for a SC. Same for sammael, He is either a hit or miss type of SC, but if used correctly, he gets a lot done for his points cost, as unbeleivable as that may sound. SM pay quite a premium for their HQ's, and while they do get a lot more options to choose from, their default choices and the commensurate prices are indeed cheaper in DA on the whole.
But the term "Better" is subjective. Your opinion of better differs from mine, which is fine. But that doesn't invalidate my opinion either. I wouldn't say one is 'better' than the other, I would say instead 'different' which is what it is.

Fair enough. Know I certaily can't knock Sammael, really. He was my prefered HQ when I did play. :) But SM do seem to have just as many neat abilities, that, also when used correctly, can be quite good for their points and what they trade in.


If you take more than a cynical moment to compare the two, you will see that while the DA techmarine is more expensive, it does have enhanced stats (the extra wound is a lot bigger than you give it credit for). Plasma cannon toting servitors that have a higher BS for 5 more points, multimelta and HB servitors with a higher BS that are cheaper than SM servitors, Servitors which lack the debilitating rule of mindlock found in the SM. All of which can be thrown into a transport unlike the SM variety.

Wasn't being a cynic. And I give 1W the credit it's due. That 1 less, shouldn't hamper the SM tech, as IMHO, tech's shouldn't be seeing combat (or have glaring LOS's to them) in the first place. IMHO, they're meant to fix tanks, like they originaly were made for. 1W, to me, doesn't matter *that* much. Same goes for servitors. They should never have been given guns, IMHO. So they don't hold much weight in my book. (mine fix things, not shoot stuff. *that* is what my army does)

Looking over SM servitor options though, I'd rather have them. Cheaper, base, 1 more servitor, and less gun 'options' (which I wouldn't be taking anyway. Would rather have a possible +6 to my repair rolls, before rolling. :D

But sure, if you want to use techs/servitors outside of their original role... ours, together, are slightly better, for the basics.




Really, the mocking tone isn't necessary to make your point, even though that is your prerogative.

I just don't feel the need to sling mud on other peoples opinions based on my own personal observations.

Sorry, no offense or 'mud slinging' intended (Re: the first responce in this post). It just... doesn't seem to me like our options are 'that' much better, or balanced with SM (as GW said they'd be. which is, in no small part, part of the problem here).

Hellfury
06-02-2009, 22:07
Never said it was better or worse. Just responded with what it was. :) Throwing it in as another example (to others) as one of the many promises GW failed to deliver on. Sure, I, too would like to have 10 man terminator squads. But I prefer my DW to be fluffy. I'd prefer, just as much, if GW'd kept all terminator squads 5 men, as the fluff states. But oh well... :\

I think it is fine for DW to be fluffy and be 5 men.
But I do not make any presumptions that other armies (which the SM codex is supposed to signify in their myriad of ways to play for their myriad of possible chapters) have to adhere to the DA fluff. Our fluff is not necessarily their fluff.
It is nice to see that a person can make a customizable force to what they envision the fluff of whatever chapter to be.

Fluff is emphemeral and changing. Its best not to get to attached because GW will surely change it on you. They have changed DA fluff in the past and they will most assuredly do it again.

I also do not recall any promise made by GW/Jervis whatever stating that all terminator squads will be 5 man from the DA codex on after. it seems to be more presumption on the part of the players expectations

A.S.modai
06-02-2009, 22:19
Wait a sec. Sammael, whilst cool and all is PWN'd by Lysander,vulkan, to name 2. Sammael lacks the Independant character rule (on a bike) thus cannot be attached to a squad. Talk about a fire magnet.

But that's apples to oranges really. Compare Azrael to lysander or vulkan. Seriously. It's like a 12 year old being thrown into the ultimate fighting championship. Theoretically, I can make my own chapter, and include Plysanger (lysander) and voltron (vulkan) if I wanted to right? Considering it says the bit about multiple chapter tactics etc. I think I can.

IMHO Azrael should be equal in pts and abilities to any chapter commander. He isn't. IMO if you take one chapter master that should preclude you from taking the others. It doesn't.

Hellfury
06-02-2009, 22:23
Wait a sec. Sammael, whilst cool and all is PWN'd by Lysander,vulkan, to name 2. Sammael lacks the Independant character rule (on a bike) thus cannot be attached to a squad. Talk about a fire magnet.

But that's apples to oranges really. Compare Azrael to lysander or vulkan. Seriously. It's like a 12 year old being thrown into the ultimate fighting championship. Theoretically, I can make my own chapter, and include Plysanger (lysander) and voltron (vulkan) if I wanted to right? Considering it says the bit about multiple chapter tactics etc. I think I can.

IMHO Azrael should be equal in pts and abilities to any chapter commander. He isn't. IMO if you take one chapter master that should preclude you from taking the others. It doesn't.

Of course this comparison is made in a vacuum. A logical fallacy on the presumption of how game design works.

[edit] I want to be clear that I am not defending the DA codex by saying that it is a superior product. Quite the contrary, it has many flaws, like any other codex. But I am saying that it isn't nearly as bad by mile as everyone is portraying it to be. Simple as that.

shabbadoo
06-02-2009, 22:48
Like many others I was pretty annoyed about the differences in the codexes(I have some *crazy* rants posted in one or two other threads:D), and the fact that Dark Angels would not be FAQed to bring them up to snuff. Then of course I realized that Codex: Dark Angels is a 4e codex, and of course GW won't be fully updating it in an FAQ because then nobody would have reason to buy a 5e Codex: Dark Angels when it comes out a few years from now. So, it isn't that Dark Angels are not being shown any love. It is that Dark Angels will not be shown any love until their 5e codex comes out. That is why GW gave the FAQ answer that they did. Of course they could have just been very straight forward and said that the current codex must be played as is until the 5e Codex: Dark Angels comes out. That would have nipped most everything in the bud right there, but foolishly they did not make such a statement. It just sucks to be on the **** end of any edition, which is what the 4e Codex: Dark Angels is.

Suck it up.

Codex: Dark Angels plays fine as is to be sure. It is just that some of the SM options would be very suitable for Dark Angels and also add more punch to restricted lists like Deathwing. If I played 100% Deathwing most of the time I'd certainly want doubly effective CMLs for only 10 points more and Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders with more varied weapon options. I think everybody can agree that these little things would be utterly useful to a 100% Deathwing army. Beleial is simply a joke as far as character go. "But he can choose to change his weapons." you say. Any generic Master can do that. Just umm....swap out the weapons on him. Wow. The Master is almost a special character now. Most people I know who field Terminators really do hate Deep Strike anyways, as it literally keeps units out of the fight, leaving the units that are actually deployed to be hammered by a full enemy army. Deathwing Assault simply isn't as good as it sounds, and I could do without it entirely. Belial is just not that good, and he even lost his Hatred of Orks too. Pretty sad. And we're all well aware of the handicap that Fearless usually is in 5e. Yep. Deathwing got the least love of all in the 4e Codex: Dark Angels.

Going to the fluff there are a few odd comparison between the codexes with regards to what units are mostly NOT present in the Dark Angels codex, those being Scout Bikes and Land Speeder Storms. Sounds like the perfect training units of Ravenwing to me, and besides, Ravenwing are not just the chapter scouts- they have a different, more important(and secret) purpose, so it is kinda lame that they get stuck with that duty. That is about it though. For a 5e Dark Angels codex, I would expect a few changes to include some of the newer models and point costs for various options, but not much more than that.

Everyone has at least 2 years of time to wish list. In the mean time, use one army list or the other, or just mock-up your own hybrid 4e/5e Codex: Dark Angels and get your gaming group to agree to you using it, just as GW suggested.

For anybody wondering about the universality of Imperial wargear, vehicles and STCs, read Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader- “The weapons, vehicles and much of the equipment in the 41st millienium have their roots in the STC system.” It can’t get any more formative and specific than that, and I'm pretty sure that Rick Priestly kinda knows what he's talking about. :D If you really need a second example after this, refer to various codexes from all game editions and White Dwarf magazine, which has featured some very nice articles on certain vehicles and provides further references to STCs. Those are all non-Black Library sources, as if that is a real issue anyways because the Black Library books that mention STCs get the topic right. :eyebrows:

Hankyaku
07-02-2009, 00:03
About DA spec chars: yes, Belial and Sammael are the good ones (but of course we could just as easily forget about Librarians, compared to those of SM), but Azrael? It has a relatively high point costs. He has a Relic blade, and confers a 4+ to his squad. So he's between Sicarius and Calgar... just take a look at Sicarius' abilities... 1 W does not worth 25 points.

For the record: I just played a doublewing against an outflanking Khan SM, with 2 Vindicators, and won. (Annihillation + DoW) I just felt foolish, when my opponent's Tyhpoon rained 2 kraks at me, while mine would just ignite the grass :/
As for those pointing at me saying: "see, the DA are still that powerful" - Guys, I used EVERY LITTLE BIT of powergaming capacity in C:DA to make an army I could win with (and also I had some quite fortunate rolls!). My problem is, that with the current dex, there's hardly else I can do!!!
If you all say, that "hey, this is a totally different army, not SM", then why is it much less flexible, than C:SM (to build a competitive army)???

Leo: just reacting to your last comment. Yes, you couldn't tell the difference looking at the model, and the list, but take a look at the point cost your opponent brought the units/upgrades for.... it was more expensive.

Fixer
07-02-2009, 00:39
Of course this comparison is made in a vacuum. A logical fallacy on the presumption of how game design works.

[edit] I want to be clear that I am not defending the DA codex by saying that it is a superior product. Quite the contrary, it has many flaws, like any other codex. But I am saying that it isn't nearly as bad by mile as everyone is portraying it to be. Simple as that.

Actually, even in a vaccum: a straight comparison on Vulkan Vs Azreal isn't so bad.

Both are marine commanders that strike at str 6. Both have mastercrafted weapons.
-Vulkan has 3 attacks and gets a reroll on one 'to wound roll'
-Azreal has 5 attacks (with 2ccw bonus) at one less WS

-Vulkan has a 3+ inv save
-Azreal has a 4+ inv save but also extends it to every member of an attached unit.

-Vulkan has a twin linked heavy flamer
-Azreal has a master crafted combi weapon and a bolt pistol

-Vulkan has his chapter tactics
-Azreal has Rites of battle, is fearless and gives additional access to a command squad and the company banner.

edit: Azreal also has an additional wound.

From a straight up comparison Azreal compares very well indeed.

bolterman
07-02-2009, 03:17
As a long term DA player (amongst other things), I still like the chapter and always will. I think the main issue can be summed up with one word:

Consistency,

When a new codex for any group of sister-race codex’s (SM/SW/BA/DA/DH/BT) is made, it is fair enough that some units are added, altered or removed altogether. This is a good thing as otherwise we could just use the standard codex in the first place. I think the problem is that as the vast majority of the gear is identical, where it is identical, the rules should be consistent across all sister codex’s. Any exceptions should be accompanied with suitable fluff to justify the differences.

When the rules are changed via a new rule set and consistency is broken (without any attempt to explain/reestablish it) it becomes apparent that GW has produced unbalanced rules. We regularly fork out ridiculous amounts of money for their product and they must be getting it right for the most part or we would just buy something else. However, if you pay the dosh you expect a quality product matching the cost. -if this does not occur, then of course you will see the customers getting annoyed.

e.g. If you bought a new motor bike from a reliable brand and later it was faulty after a few months, you would be right to demand that it should be fixed. If the company said that the model is now obsolete and replacement parts are unavailable, it would amplify your annoyance- especially when you had to race extra hard to beat the guy with the new model.

I suspect that the main reason for the non-committal response was given, was because GW wants to avoid getting into a Chapter Approved style rules set. Fair enough, but it is still annoying for the ones on the receiving end.

I suppose what I am driving at is- yes DA are complaining a lot about this, but this is not an unreasonable response. "Suck it up" is however, an unreasonable response- albeit a slightly funny one...

mughi3
07-02-2009, 05:13
DW still work, and even better than be fore now due to not having such harsh restrictions as they once had.
Except you have to play a mixed wing to do that so is it realy DW anymore?
I play pure DW and always have like most DW players. that means i get 3 unit types-
.terminators
,dreadnoughts
.land raiders

The changes in the rules for C: SM are a glaring example of imbalance. i have used my same list with just 4th ed C:DA rules and also with the newest stats found in C: SM for rules and equipment costs.

Without any doubt the new rules are a huge improvment in performance for DW or would be if we could legally use them. this of course means that normal C: SM get a huge boost over us for similar units because of the codex/edition chages.

Giant Fossil Penguin
07-02-2009, 07:27
What's the fuss with the FAQ? Doesn't that give you the best of all possible worlds? Unless there is an air of doucheness over the tabletop, which opponent would really make it such an issue that you can't use the stuff from the new C:SM? As for tournaments, well, just make sure that you contact the TO early on to plead your case for the same treatment.
I always thought that folk who played the 'divergent' Chapters did so because they liked the fluff and the story it told them. If you love the DA fluff, then things are as they are. Doesn't your love of the fluff overcome some petty differences in options? And please don't jump on me for that last sentence, but if you love the Chapter you play it as it is and love it for its differences and quirks. Surely for the DA, BA, SW and BT any gameplay reasons should come a long way after 'feel' and fluff?

GFP

Hankyaku
07-02-2009, 10:54
GFP: On Tournaments people don't only play out of 'love'. They actually would like to win.... :D With my love for my Chapter, I can't win. With their units though, I should be available to. But whenever I face SM players, I see the same units on their list, with superior equipment in many cases and lesser point costs. (And please don't come up with that "Pathfinder" example again - that is not a serious example, they're not even the same species.)

mughi3: yep, you can make a DW army with pure SM with much better options, and 2x5 Scouts... you do risk not haveing scoring units, only contesting ones. With real DW units, you're at 5 man squads though with inferior equipment (yes, I also agree that 2+/3+ troops would be overpowered - frankly I think that the 3+ SS is insane).

Fixer: PLEASE DON'T FORGET, THAT AZRAEL COSTS 35 POINTS MORE!!!!!! Taken that into account, it's not the same. You can compare with many-many characters, but that 225 point cost is quite a rip off, since he only gives an ability to one unit, not the whole army - except for the rites of battle, an increase of Ld by 1, quite a "strong" ability at a Fearless dominated army. :/ (I can imagine a biker strong army with flamers&meltas with Vulkan...) One thing though is that the Azrael model is indeed beautiful. Vulkan is like a GK. It's also beautiful, but not that unique.

Hankyaku
07-02-2009, 11:05
I suspect that the main reason for the non-committal response was given, was because GW wants to avoid getting into a Chapter Approved style rules set. Fair enough, but it is still annoying for the ones on the receiving end.

I suppose what I am driving at is- yes DA are complaining a lot about this, but this is not an unreasonable response. "Suck it up" is however, an unreasonable response- albeit a slightly funny one...

I don't really know why GW is afraid of Chapter approved. That was a quite good way of improving the rulesets. If a gaming club had at least one, then the players could easily keep up with the rulesets.

And yes, the DA FAQ was outrageous. The thing is, that the "ask permission" policy is what the original rulebook starts with. "If you don't like a rule, just negotiate it with your opponent! Most important is to have fun!" It was just repeating that because they did not do anything else! That really is not a serious response to the objections against the consistency problems. A clear answer is "Yes/No". Not "Yes, but/No, but". Of course the best answer would be clearing obsolete rules and equipment, decreasing overpowered abilities, or increasing point costs, and increasing underpowered abilities, or decreasing point costs, and inducting new rules to clear possible discrepancies between different editions. The list is long, even if it's not about the difference between similar wargear, just C: DA and 5th.

Aladin_sane
07-02-2009, 11:05
Oh I've opened a can of worms here.... shall we stop?

mughi3
07-02-2009, 12:45
Oh I've opened a can of worms here.... shall we stop?

We can't stop, we have to slow down first.
:evilgrin:

TheLionReturns
07-02-2009, 12:54
Well then, as you broguht it up.

Prove it.

That's right I am calling you out on that claim.

Show me at least two (2) official cannon Games Workshop authorised (This means NOT Black Library) source that say each and every bit of Imperial Equipment ever made is the exact same.


Well most "official" GW canon has very little on the manufactorum and the adpetus mechancius as they don't have armies in the ruleset (GW has stated that Black Library is canon like anything else where discrepencies are to be taken as simply a result of bias in writing perspective, but this is off topic really). The 2nd edition Codex Imperialis is probably the best source I have seen on the Adpetus Mechanicus, their attitudes and the nature of STC's from the early days.

Other than that I would recommend Imperial Armour Volume 1. Right at the start of the book you have a great deal of detail about the nature of technology in the Imperium.

To summarise innovation occurred in the Dark Age of Technology. Since then scientific knowledge has been lost and what remains is an archeological approach to technology. Imperial armour vol 1 even states "science is now an archeological study". Essentially archeological finds from this Dark Age of Technology are mined and used to produce current tech. Now at this time a system known as standard template construction (STC) was used. This was one store of the entirety of scientific knowledge allowing colonists to produce the technology needed at a distance from other civilisation.

All that has been found are scraps of this knowledge or "print outs". These "print outs" can be the rhino hull design for example or even the storm shield and are reverred by the Adeptus Mechanicus and followed rigidly. To quote Imperial Armour Vol 1: "The Adeptus Mechanicus sees anything involving STC designs as reflections of the will and divinity of the Machine God and, ultimitely, the Emperor himself. To change them would be heresy, a challenge to the will of the Gods, and is unthinkable for a faithful servant." As a result the construction of weapons for example is highly ritualised and more akin to a religious ceremony than any current manufacturing technique we would recognise.

This is evident in vehicle design for example where the chimera hull is the base for many tanks and even the Leman Russ and the Chimera share the same track links. The point is that only a small number of STC print outs have been found and as a result there are just a small number of permitted designs, given innovation is heresy.

I don't think it has been explicitly stated that Storm Shields are the same everywhere but why would you state that for every piece of equipment. What has been built up is the impression that there is no technological development other than archeological discovery. That all technology produced is standardised as per the nature of the STC's "print outs". The idea of making a better Storm Shield just does not fit into the attitudes of the Adpetus Mechanicus and the nature of technological development in the Imperium.

Look I concede there are ways around this. Given the mythical nature of technology in the Imperium and the timescales involved, it is possible to argue that perhaps a tech heretic's designs are found many years after their death and mistaken for an STC printout. Of course then you would also need a reason why the DA don't use this improved shield but I'm sure some reason can be dreamed up. Another possibility is that the rituals vary between forgeworlds and differences occur as a result (which could satisfy the difference with DA criteria). The Inquisitor rulebook for example has 4 different marks of boltgun and 3 different patterns of lasgun. The differences are so minor however, that there is no difference in game terms in 40K. This is a strong indicator to me that any differences in ritual create fairly minor differences in game terms.

The key issue is that having 2 sets or rules for something named the same is confusing and sloppy, especially when the fluff, without this creative interpretation, would suggest otherwise. All GW had to do is write a bit of fluff explaining the differences and call the "storm shield" something different (MkII or Hades pattern for example) and you would have the consistency back. Indeed such a story about the Storm Shield might help add more to the Adpetus Mechanicus background. All I ask is that GW makes more of an effort to keep the rules consistent with the fluff. I think the differences between the rules of the two warrants an explanation.

Hankyaku
07-02-2009, 16:42
:D I see the administratorium does its job quite well!

Lion: Yes, at least somebody knows where this is written! I knew that I read something about the Adeptus Mechanicus, but I thought that it's in a later IA! Also as mentioned in C: DA, the DA are not that different even in terms of military organization as many here wish to depict it.

JagdWehrwolf
07-02-2009, 17:25
Gentlemen. Confirming the words of allmighty Brimstone, we`ve all seen a fair share of love/hate towards Dark Angels because of the shaft that GW prepared for them. So as a noob I will step forward with a humble proposition. Maybe one of the Old School Hard Core Dark Angels could start a thread in which all concerned could describe how they`re dealing with the aformentioned shaft. Essentialy I`m talking about the examples of codex-mixing without throwing meta-game out of balance. I think that rules Development forum could be the right place.

Hankyaku
07-02-2009, 18:01
There are at least two threads like that. :D There are mini-dexes made (one of them by myself), simple codex updates, and also simple C: SM supplements (essentially some spec chars).
So the DA players can choose if the game club members agree.

nuclearfeet
07-02-2009, 18:32
Dark Angels get special stuff that you can't get in the 5th ed SM codex
Blood Angels get special stuff that you can't get in the 5th ed SM codex

So what seems to be the problem? Quit whining, NOW.

/thread

HsojVvad
07-02-2009, 20:08
Dark Angels get special stuff that you can't get in the 5th ed SM codex
Blood Angels get special stuff that you can't get in the 5th ed SM codex

So what seems to be the problem? Quit whining, NOW.

/thread

Really? What is so different? Please enlighten me. How come Ultramarines have so many different options, while as you said, DA and BA have different options. What are they? Maybe it's not the new toys that UM have, but the ability to so much more flexible is why people are upset.

So DA have 4 options, DW, RW, GW, and DW\RW. GW is really not an option to be on par with SM. I don't even know what options BA have. I even think BT have just a few options.

*edit* ah forget it, I will not bother anymore, no matter how eloquently DA players say, it will be said that they are whining and crying and complaining, even when they are not. I just get so upset when people say DA players are complaining. Time to log off and cool down.

Why is it that UM can have so many options, while others can't? Why pay $40 for just 3 options then, when you can pay $40 for so many options.

I will quit whining, when you can only take 3 options, and not by your choice either. Btw we are not whining, if you think people are whining, don't bother saying anything, and don't read the post. Let people vent out there frustrations, you don't have to be apart of it if you don't like it.

I say yes DA got the short end of the stick. Why, because codex SM was suppose to be exactly like C:DA. That is what GW said, because alot of players complained when DA codex came out. Especially alot of non DA SM players CRIED when C:DA came out. That is why GW had a different change in the direction when C:UM came out.

When DA came out, people complained points were too exepensive, it was too dull. When Eldar came out, people complained that craftworlds were elimanted, everything came out bland. When C:CSM came out, people complained it was too bland, not enough character in it.

Heaven forbid GW makes C:UM bland, so they changed it and not make it bland. People say C:DA is really a beta for the SM codex. I am starting to see that they were correct, and GW changed the things that NON DA SM players Cried and Whined about. That is why DA got the short end of the stick.

Giant Fossil Penguin
07-02-2009, 20:20
@Hankyaku: DA aren't auto-lose, just as no army is auto-win. To say that the DA codex makes it impossiblr to win is hyperbole. My point still stands, however. If you are only concerened with winning at tournaments, then I don't see any Marine codex being the way to go. But if winning isn't all...
DA is hardly weak, especially with the DW and RW, which, it seems to me, are the reason for a seperate 'dex. And like I said, the FAQ lets any DA player do whatever they want when mixing and matching-the best of all worlds.

GFP

ZOMGBBQ
07-02-2009, 20:42
TBH this is all Whining, for this reason.

The only reason DA even HAVE a separate codex is because of Ravenwing and Deathwing.

If you want to play 8th company Dark Angels, you have ALWAYS been better off using the normal codex. Always.

Now, when you look at Deathwing and Ravenwing, they haven't aged well with regards to the 5th ed rule set I'll admit that, but they still aare effective.

Also, saying "DA ARE OLD THERFORE THEY SUX BAWWWW" is utterly untrue. It's not a list that lets you win, its generalship. Dark Eldar can Beat Spaec Mareenz. Imperial Guard can beat Chaos Daemons.

I don't have a problem with people using Codex: Ultramarines to play Dark Angel Battle Companies, its a more appropriate rule set anyway. What I do have is people crying about Deathwing and Ravenwing, when those lists are still competitive, and wanting to make some sort of broken list where they keep all the Dark Angel Advantages and lose all their Disadvantages by mixing the 2. You wanna mix codex's? Go back to 3rd edition and leave us in peace (Gasp! Space Wolves do mix codex's, [though this isn't our fault, since using Codex: Ultramarines to represent Space Wolves is like using Codex: Tau to Represent Chaos Daemons] and they are one of the stronger lists around. I guess being an Unloved Space Viking worked out better than being Whiny Emo Marines eh?)

Aladin_sane
08-02-2009, 00:42
TBH this is all Whining, for this reason.

Now, when you look at Deathwing and Ravenwing, they haven't aged well with regards to the 5th ed rule set I'll admit that, but they still aare effective.

Also, saying "DA ARE OLD THERFORE THEY SUX BAWWWW" is utterly untrue. It's not a list that lets you win, its generalship. Dark Eldar can Beat Spaec Mareenz. Imperial Guard can beat Chaos Daemons.

I don't have a problem with people using Codex: Ultramarines to play Dark Angel Battle Companies, its a more appropriate rule set anyway. What I do have is people crying about Deathwing and Ravenwing, when those lists are still competitive, and wanting to make some sort of broken list where they keep all the Dark Angel Advantages and lose all their Disadvantages by mixing the 2. Yo

Okay enough now, this is exactly why I asked to stop this thread from continuing. We're obviously not crying about this, yet you feel the need to insult people who are expressing their opinions, all I wanted was a god damn discussion. I wanted constructive reasoning to an issue I believed needed addressing, not bitching at one another.

shabbadoo
08-02-2009, 00:53
Dark Angels get special stuff that you can't get in the 5th ed SM codex
Blood Angels get special stuff that you can't get in the 5th ed SM codex

So what seems to be the problem? Quit whining, NOW.

/thread

I love comments like this. What exactly do Dark Angels get that Space Marines don't? Terminators? Land Speeders? Attack Bikes? Veterans?

Hmmm...

What Dark Angels get is options, or an additional rule for those units. That 's it. Just a variance on a few utterly standard Codex Astartes chapter units. No new and unique units, but only ones that are now considered to be variants as some things have changed in the new C: SM(such as Scouts & Techmarines).

What do Dark Angels literally NOT have?: two types of unique Veterans(one really is fine for them though), Scout Bikers, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Thunderfire/Convrsion Beamer, Land Speeder Storms, and a bunch of what ought to be standard equipment/armament options on units/vehicles for all Space Marine chapters. I probably left something out. That's an exceptionally big list of things for a chapter that only varies from a standard codex chapter in the organization of its 2nd Company(fully non-codex) and its 1st Company(doesn't field power armor; only Terminator Armour) to be missing.

Anybody who is thinking that even before the latest C: SM came out that DA were C: SM+ is fooling themselves.

People really do need to stop harping about the FAQ though. It has done its job. Don't expect a full codex update in the FAQ- just errata and further explanation of rules. That's it. Full updates are what new codexes are for. Accept it and move on.

Hankyaku
08-02-2009, 13:53
@Hankyaku: DA aren't auto-lose, just as no army is auto-win. To say that the DA codex makes it impossiblr to win is hyperbole. My point still stands, however. If you are only concerened with winning at tournaments, then I don't see any Marine codex being the way to go. But if winning isn't all...
DA is hardly weak, especially with the DW and RW, which, it seems to me, are the reason for a seperate 'dex. And like I said, the FAQ lets any DA player do whatever they want when mixing and matching-the best of all worlds.
GFP

You twisting my senteces like this IS a hyperbole! I said that on GTs - where SM armies are popular - I'm quite at a disadvantage against SM. They use the same units with better equipment and lesser point cost....
And you're WRONG, the FAQ DOES NOT allow anything like that. YOU can allow that, but the rules DO NOT. All tournaments are based on rules, not on players deciding what to allow and what to deny.



The only reason DA even HAVE a separate codex is because of Ravenwing and Deathwing.
Now, when you look at Deathwing and Ravenwing, they haven't aged well with regards to the 5th ed rule set I'll admit that, but they still aare effective.

You can scrap RW from that list. The new SM can do RW for lesser points, AND bring in termies with homers (scout bikes, and captain on bike).



I don't have a problem with people using Codex: Ultramarines to play Dark Angel Battle Companies, its a more appropriate rule set anyway. What I do have is people crying about Deathwing and Ravenwing, when those lists are still competitive, and wanting to make some sort of broken list where they keep all the Dark Angel Advantages and lose all their Disadvantages by mixing the 2. You wanna mix codex's?
That is STUPID STUPID STUPID! How many times will DA players have to repeat, that THEY DON'T WANT THE JUICE FROM BOTH! PLEASE READ THE POSTS!

shabbadoo:
Yes, that's the whole point. The DA ARE different. Many new inventions were made for the Space Marines (remember, the DA/BA/BT/SW are space marines), and the Imperium, but nobody got them, except for the space marines. It's hard to grasp even in the case of WH/DH, who are only concerned partially (vehicles/some equipment). But in case of the OTHER SPACE MARINES? Does uniqueness mean less access to equipment WIDELY USED IN NEARLY ALL SM CHAPTERS? No, that shouldn't mean that.

But frankly, I agree, that GW didn't just allow that. That would've tipped the balance hardly on the side of all "non-codex" chapters. This does not change, that what they've done (=nothing) is not a solution either. It's fluffwise and rulewise inconsistent and tipped the balance in favor of any "non-unique" chapters!

So summing what DA players want (please do argue with me DA players, if I'm wrong): the same equipment as the SM has (yes, smoke launchers, psyhic hoods too!), bringing the unit types and equipment access in line (yes, decreasing scout stats!), balancing the point costs and additional balancing rules, where necessary (f.e.:non-scoring DW termies :/ ).
I also think that other Imperium armies shall get a treatment like that.
So to the answer to the question if we want the new specialised units (Sterng, Vang, LoD, etc.): NO. Auxillary units are required IMHO, if they're not anti-fluff (like LS Storm).
Keywords: maintain rule and fluff consistency, and game balance!

Grand Master Raziel
08-02-2009, 15:17
Well, I think it's time I stuck my oar in on this one. First of all, DA players have a legitimate beef. Back when Codex: Dark Angels came out, it was a clear nerf. No longer could DA player overlay a mini-dex on Codex: Space Marines. Characters were made less killy. Options were extremely limited. You couldn't make the SM gunline. Scouts were moved to Elites. Squad structure was made very rigid, and everything that mounted an assault cannon or a lascannon went up in price. No new units were introduced, in spite of some wishful thinking that the dex might include the Mortis pattern Dreadnought from IA:2 (a Dread with identical twin gun-arms, unique to the Unforgiven chapters). You'd think that DA players would get some new units in return for putting up with that hard a beatdown with the nerf stick, but no. DA players embraced it anyway, on the premise that their book was a harbinger of things to come for all SM armies.

Along comes Codex: Space Marines. Now, DA players might be expected to not voice sour grapes because C:SM armies get some units that C: DA players don't get. They might be expected to put up with prices on things being tweaked down with a minimum of grumbling. Having C:SM armies get better stats on weapons and equipment that are in both books is definately a slap in the face. Having to put up with all three [reckless hyperbole]is practically worthy of rioting in the streets and burning down GW's Birmingham headquarters[/reckless hyperbole]. As if to rub salt in the wound, characters and units in C:SM get a much broader range of options than identical units in C: DA. Remember the Mortis pattern Dread that DA players didn't get? C:SM players can have Dreads with twin TL-autocannon arms. In other words, S:SM players get the Mortis Dread and C: DA players don't. :wtf: Why should a C: DA player have to pay 10-20pts more for a Tactical Squad than a C:SM player when both squads are the same size and have exactly the same equipment? Why shouldn't a C: DA Dev Squad Sergeant get the little widget that improves one squaddy's BS when a C:SM Dev Squad Sergeant does? Why should a DA Typhoon suck so much compared to a SM Typhoon that might have been made on the exact same forge world? Where were the Dark Angels when Terra was passing out the Ironclad Dreads and the LR-Redeemers?

As to references to things in Codex: Dark Angels that aren't in Codex: Space Marines, you're basically talking about the Deathwing and the Ravenwing, which is marginal because it's not as if C:SM doesn't have Terminator Squads and Bike Squadrons. Playing pure Deathwing has always been an exercise in taking theme over effectiveness, so yeah, it's an option, but not a good one. As for playing Ravenwing, C:SM players can do a very similar thing, only they don't have to take a 200pt special character in order to have the privelege. Alternately, they can take a 200pt special character (Kor'Sarro on Moondraken), get the Bike Squadrons as Troops choices, and be able to Outflank with everything in their army, not just their Bike Squadrons. So, basically, C:SM players get their own stuff, and they get the Ravenwing schtick as well.

To put things in perspective, here's a hypothetical example: Let's say that GW releases a Codex: Ulthwe as a precursor to releasing a new Codex: Eldar. Codex: Ulthwe basically tones down the things that are obnoxious about the current Codex: Eldar (holofields are jacked up in price, Harlequin Troupes have a minimum size of 10 models so they won't fit in a Falcon, Eldrad gets jacked up to 300pts, etc.) with very little (if any) give-back. Wait a year and a half. GW releases a new Codex: Eldar with a whole slew of new units, price reductions, new abilities, a Heavy 4 Starcannon, and supposedly Ulthwe-unique schticks being options for all Eldar players. Ulthwe players would be justifiably irate.

It's not as if GW can't take steps to address the concerns of DA players, either. A FAQ can't fix all the problems, but it could address a hell of a lot more than it currently does. For instance, GW could include an updated summary in the FAQ so that at least things like the Cyclone and the Typhoon would be consistent in both dexes. Furthermore, GW could print a second edition of 5th edition's Codex: Dark Angels that brings it into line with Codex: Space Marines. I don't want to understate the difficulty of doing so, but on the other hand it would not approach the difficulty of releasing an entirely new dex. Background material and artwork need not be changed. The only necessary changes would be to weapon stats and unit prices. This would not be an unprecendented step. The first printing of 3.5 C:CSM had Obliterators at T5. This was claimed to be a typo, and subsequent printings at T4(5) Oblits. So, a corrected printing of Codex: Dark Angels would be the fairest solution - admittedly, not a small task, but nowhere near as involved in creating an entirely new dex. Hell, just declare the army list in the current Codex: Dark Angels to be obsolete and release a corrected army list in White Dwarf and put it up on the website. If Blood Angels players can manage with an online dex, Dark Angels players certainly can as well. It's not like GW is going to sell many copies of Codex: Dark Angels based on the army list at this point.

Hankyaku
08-02-2009, 15:54
Nice summary, last paragraph applies to many other codices (imperial and unique dex space marines).

cowie165
09-02-2009, 00:03
nice summary

+1 .

MasterGideon
12-02-2009, 11:54
That sums up how I feel about Codex: SM, Everyone says we are just having sour grapes, Its not true, Ive used the Lonewolf army builder to build a the same DA army list with the new Codex: SM, and there is at least a 100-150 points difference between the lists, now think how many upgrades or extra transports you can get for that!

I would personally like them to bring all the BA/DA/BT wargear/weapon states into line with the new codex, there is no logic to it at all the whole "different forgeworld" rubbish goes again the cannon, forgeworlds all work of the same STC, the only difference is the look of the weapon/tank, but the barebones they all work the same.

MasterGideon.

MadDoc
12-02-2009, 12:08
Hear, hear, very eloquently put Grand Master Raziel. You summed up the situation very nicely... shame GW are too pigheaded to listen/care. :skull:

Marshal Sinclair
12-02-2009, 12:12
DA players embraced it anyway...

You make it sound like you (Dark Angels players) embraced it without complaint. You (Dark Angels players) complained extremely loudly. It was pointless then, and it's pointless now.

You aren't the only Codex to have different stats to the new Marine book. My Sororitas Rhinos are more expensive and my shotguns are much worse etc. Do other armies complain so much?

Complaining loudly doesn't make people more sympathetic, it makes them ignore you.

MadDoc
12-02-2009, 12:21
You make it sound like you (Dark Angels players) embraced it without complaint. You (Dark Angels players) complained extremely loudly. It was pointless then, and it's pointless now.

Interestingly enough I seem to recall it being those who played C:SM howling loudest that they didn't want what had been done with Codex: Dark Angels to be done to C:SM.


You aren't the only Codex to have different stats to the new Marine book. My Sororitas Rhinos are more expensive and my shotguns are much worse etc. Do other armies complain so much?

Funnily enough not so much, but given that Daemonhunters/Grey Knights (amongst others) have had their list modified via their FAQ to bring units into line (the Land Raider immediately springs to mind as an example) with the new C:SM I couldn't possibly imagine why not... :rolleyes:


Complaining loudly doesn't make people more sympathetic, it makes them ignore you.

So it would be better to meekly roll over and do nothing? :eyebrows:

AngryAngel
12-02-2009, 12:35
I love comments like this. What exactly do Dark Angels get that Space Marines don't? Terminators? Land Speeders? Attack Bikes? Veterans?

Hmmm...

What Dark Angels get is options, or an additional rule for those units. That 's it. Just a variance on a few utterly standard Codex Astartes chapter units. No new and unique units, but only ones that are now considered to be variants as some things have changed in the new C: SM(such as Scouts & Techmarines).

What do Dark Angels literally NOT have?: two types of unique Veterans(one really is fine for them though), Scout Bikers, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Thunderfire/Convrsion Beamer, Land Speeder Storms, and a bunch of what ought to be standard equipment/armament options on units/vehicles for all Space Marine chapters. I probably left something out. That's an exceptionally big list of things for a chapter that only varies from a standard codex chapter in the organization of its 2nd Company(fully non-codex) and its 1st Company(doesn't field power armor; only Terminator Armour) to be missing.

Anybody who is thinking that even before the latest C: SM came out that DA were C: SM+ is fooling themselves.

People really do need to stop harping about the FAQ though. It has done its job. Don't expect a full codex update in the FAQ- just errata and further explanation of rules. That's it. Full updates are what new codexes are for. Accept it and move on.

I agree with ya on your point. Even about the harping of the FAQ. I don't think they'll ever take the burn away from the DA. It pisses me off, but what can we do really ?

I feel the pain of my brothers and quite honestly, I would be happy if we just had the same equipment as our fellow SM's. Thats it. Now I held my tounge all through this, saying I wouldn't throw down again. I just had to go off a little about the "differing forgeworld" nonsense.

That is such complete crap, perhaps the most idiotic thing I've ever heard from GW for a reason for a clear over nerf and no forward thinking. I mean come on, are you trying to tell me even DA smoke operates diffrently then any other imperial smoke in the universe ? THEY MAKE DIFFRENT COLOR/CONSISTENCY SMOKE ?!?!? From every other thing in the imperium, as I am sure all other codices will have the 4 up cover save smoke.

How is that ?? Do we get our equipment from Crazy Ottos forgeworld explosion to save a few bucks ? Did everyone else get the memo that said we'd need to swap out gear and we were just like "Don't have time to read".

I have not had one person in my local area spout this crap, and try and even remotely justify it. I can get the lack of new units. I don't think DA need um. If anything keeps ya from needing to buy as much in terms of models, which stikes me as a GW loss if anything.

I just feel like i'm taking crazy pills when people expect me to believe that in time, DA will be the only codex left with the crappiest gear in the imperium. That mystically is worse/diffrent then every other like named item in existance.

I guess I should feel special that even our smoke has a "dark secret". Perhaps the dark secret is our apparent forgeworld sucks yet we're too cheap/lazy to find a new one.

I think the darkest of secrets though is that despite the crap all GW does to the DA, we still have loyal and good players like myself, GMR and the other Inner circle members, who still play them. Not because of GW support, but in spite of it.

Now that said, don't mistake my words for whinning. I'm not asking for anything but whats right, I'm simply voicing my displeasure as I have many times before. I bought the damn army, I and any DA player have the right to vent about them.

Toe Cutter
12-02-2009, 13:06
I think the darkest of secrets though is that despite the crap all GW does to the DA, we still have loyal and good players like myself, GMR and the other Inner circle members, who still play them. Not because of GW support, but in spite of it.

While I agree with most of your points (apart from a slight aberration with regards the new storm shields - I don't want them, they're an abomination) I just want to pick you up on the above point.

The phenomenon of loving your army and continuing with it despite having a new codex that really shafts it is hardly something thats unique to dark angels (first time its happened to imperial marines though admittedly, it would appear you've picked the wrong colour poster boys - downer for you). Previous to the current ork codex, they were in exactly the same boat. Imperial guard still are in the same boat (but hopefully our new codex will sort that out). Then there's the neglected armies - dark eldar (thought they had it made when they were included in the 3rd edition starter set then very little since then) and necrons (you think you have problems with storm shield and cyclone missile launcher discrepancies - try having the bulk of your AT ability nerfed in one fell swoop).

I bet dark angel on marine battles just got a lot more interesting for you though eh? Grudge match much? Welcome to the world of the guardsman.

Lorenzen
12-02-2009, 13:14
my only issues with the whole thing is that our characters had their "relic blade" equivilant items removed for our dex, only to see them pop up in codex: space marines.. honestly theiving ultramarines! other issue is the lack of consistancy between the wargear.

i dont really care about any of the new stuff like veterans or ironclads.. if i was going to moan about new units in the dex itd most likely be mortiis dreadnaughts.. but thats for another time.

AngryAngel
12-02-2009, 17:09
I'm not saying we've had the worst of it Toe Cutter, I respect and did feel quite bad for old Ork players. I am also a DE player, so the shaft there continues for me. That doesn't change the fact that the burn pisses me off.

I'm happy however you agree with my other points. As for the storm shield I always did think they should be just an invuln save period. Not just for CC. It would have been fine for me if it gave the assault terns a 4 up invuln save. That is for another topic however.

Yeah it feels good to beat a vanilla marine army. Though to be quite honest, I don't hold that much of a grudge towards the vanilla marine dex or its players. I blame GW for the shaft they forced upon the DA.

So to say, am I saying its the worst thing ever. No, does it make me mad, yes. Is voicing it doing anything ?, nothing other then supporting my other unhappy brothers and just making my voice known.

As I've done on all these threads based on this subject. As I said I don't expect a whole lot out of it, it does feel better however.

HsojVvad
12-02-2009, 21:16
*edit* it might start flamming so I thought I better remove it. Didn't mean it as a flame but it could be taken as that.

Toe Cutter
12-02-2009, 23:24
I'm not saying we've had the worst of it Toe Cutter, I respect and did feel quite bad for old Ork players. I am also a DE player, so the shaft there continues for me. That doesn't change the fact that the burn pisses me off.

ouchees - your gaming career clearly started under a dark cloud for you to be this unlucky :)



So to say, am I saying its the worst thing ever. No, does it make me mad, yes. Is voicing it doing anything ?, nothing other then supporting my other unhappy brothers and just making my voice known.

As I've done on all these threads based on this subject. As I said I don't expect a whole lot out of it, it does feel better however.

To quote Alan Lamb:

'Rub it man. I know it hurts.'

The context in which he said that was somewhat different though admittedly... :angel:

[Black] Katalyst
13-02-2009, 02:53
I just sit back and realize that an Ultra Marine's Power of the Machine Spirit is more owerful than my Power of the Machine Spirit. I understand that the Ultra Marine's Vernerable Dreadnaught is more venerable than my Venerable Dreadnaught.

I'm a Dark Angels player and I'm going to keep playing.

I hold my head high and look at the bright side, "Red headed step child" has a nice ring to it.

AngryAngel
13-02-2009, 04:48
Well Toe cutter, I thank ya for your words. BTW I did love you in Mad Max.

Ronin_eX
13-02-2009, 06:44
I'm glad my solution was to stop giving GW money for **** poor products and playing other games instead otherwise I may have wasted time posting one of those massive wall-o-text posts I used to on this issue.

Needless to say why wish for GW to do what they can't (write a decent codex) when they already did it when they had competent game designers. Angels of Death works just fine, and so does 2nd Edition. No pulling my hair out boggling at the ineptitude of the current design philosophy and more having fun.

40k has started into another downhill run of balance hell and design inconsistency just like we had in 3rd edition. Each codex being developed in a vacuum while everyone wore blinders. But GW have done it for nearly the last decade so I'm not holding out hope they will fix it any time soon. It's still saddening to hear that they are ignoring the perfectly good criticisms of their design choices but hey, they're GW so it wont change.

To the disgruntled players I say quit worrying and find the many wonderful game companies that like their fans by taking a trip into Other Games. Hell the Official Infinity Thread is full of nothing but love and puppies, hell what am I doing in here?

*heads back to other games with a smile on his face*

;)

ZOMGBBQ
13-02-2009, 06:45
Thats easy to say, but many of us don't have the Luxury of Going of to play other games.

Warforger
13-02-2009, 07:16
Well I see where there getting at, you might as well should have just used SM rules during 4th anyway since you could achieve nearly the exact same list with C;SM anyway, Terminator command squads were able to go to ten man, as were normal terminator squads.

So in total you could have 52 terminators

Now with DW, since they have 5 man terminator caped squads, they can only have 47, I though DW had the most terminator suits? Whatever happened to that? On top of that, you could also take a trait which allowed for bikes as troops, so essentially, you could make doublewing with the 4th ed SM codex.

However I do get what anti-DA whiners are getting at, in the past there were sub lists for there armies (LoTLAtD for example), Grey Knight players have been sitting there winning hardly any games, Chaos lost alot of its characters and became more of a disbanded squads coming together as one force, Ork clan rules disappeared, Codex:Craftworld eldar went down the drain etc.

So heres my point, exactly what makes the Dark Angels qualified for there own codex? Grey Knights are already the same concept except more advanced, what a over-abundance of wargear and covering up a dying breed. I say they would be better off as a sub list as part of C:SM, I wouldn't mind if it happened to my Blood Angels too.

MasterGideon
13-02-2009, 09:28
Warforge has the right idea, instead of having multi SM codex, just have one you can easily put all the army lists in one big codex, it would spend up keeping all the Space Marine codex in date

It would stop things like wargear changes etc changing between different marine chapters(unless its chapter specifice like the BA Rhino 40 pts due to the whole "improved engines" rules) People would prefere solid and reliable rules and codexs over individual codex.

At the end of the day space marines are space marines!

MasterGideon

ZOMGBBQ
13-02-2009, 10:15
Warforge has the right idea, instead of having multi SM codex, just have one you can easily put all the army lists in one big codex, it would spend up keeping all the Space Marine codex in date

Well, EXCUUUUUUSE me for not wanting to Shell Out cash for rules I will not use. Why Should I as a Space Wolf Player have to buy rules for Dark Angels and Blood Angels? Hell while we are at it lets Just Clump All of Humanity Onto one codex and all the Xenos into one.

Mozzamanx
13-02-2009, 10:27
You are aware of course, that all Codexi are the same price? Not like those extra rules will cost anything on top of your own.

I'm a Dark Angel player, and honestly, I don't think we need our own Codex. Sure the background is awesome, and we have some killer characters, but the combat differences can be rolled into a variation of Chapter Tactics.

Sammael- All Biker models replace Combat Tactics with Scout and a Teleport Homer
Belial- All Terminators replace Combat Tactics for Fearless and the ability to mix equipment

Lord Damocles
13-02-2009, 10:36
Warforge has the right idea, instead of having multi SM codex, just have one you can easily put all the army lists in one big codex, it would spend up keeping all the Space Marine codex in date
That would all be well and good; but as it happens it's not the situation we find ourselves in*, and GW don't show any signs of doing it in the future.

Besides which, if the Marine codex was Ģ30 and 2" thick, the internet would implode with Ultramarine, Imperial Fist, Iron Hands, Rainbow warriors (etc. ect.) players raging over having to buy rules for varient chapters which they don't want.



*'we' in the broadest sense, since I don't play Dark Angels.

----------------------------
EDIT:

You are aware of course, that all Codexi are the same price? Not like those extra rules will cost anything on top of your own.
Last time I checked, the Marine codex already cost more than the others ;)

Mozzamanx
13-02-2009, 10:40
Crumbs, when did that happen? Alright, you win.

Teach me to post without checking. :eyebrows:

shabbadoo
13-02-2009, 11:04
Furthermore, GW could print a second edition of 5th edition's Codex: Dark Angels that brings it into line with Codex: Space Marines.

GW likely will do this, but it will be an actual 5e Codex: Dark Angels. GW can't do a *second printing* of a 5e Codex: Dark Angels when a *first printing* of a 5e Codex: Dark Agnels doesn't exists to begin with. The current Codex: Dark Angels I*S* a 4e codex. It released more than a year and a half before the current game edition did. People need to stop calling the current Codex: Dark Angels a 5e codex, because it is not.


Leave the lies to The Fallen my brothers. :D

Toe Cutter
13-02-2009, 13:26
Well Toe cutter, I thank ya for your words. BTW I did love you in Mad Max.

:D cheers I was pretty good eh?

Seems we have a bit of problem here. Either you could lump all marines into one codex and consign the (almost inevitable) problems with wargear consistency to the past (along with a lot of the fluff diversity as well unfortunately) or you can keep the nice diverse rich backgrounds for each chapter specific codex with the proviso that the wargear will inevitably be a bit fluffed.

Can't have both it would seem.

Marshal Sinclair
13-02-2009, 13:41
:D cheers I was pretty good eh?

Seems we have a bit of problem here. Either you could lump all marines into one codex and consign the (almost inevitable) problems with wargear consistency to the past (along with a lot of the fluff diversity as well unfortunately) or you can keep the nice diverse rich backgrounds for each chapter specific codex with the proviso that the wargear will inevitably be a bit fluffed.

Can't have both it would seem.

Putting all Marines in one book wouldn't damage the fluff at all, as it would give the design team more time to work on the more interesting races (which is er... all of them).

Starchild
13-02-2009, 14:05
Can't have both it would seem.

Not necessarily. GW wants multiple SM codexes so they can maintain interest in their biggest cash cow. From a marketing perspective, there is no way GW would ever lump DAs into a bigger SM book.

The best solution would be to have all the SM codexes written by the entire development team. That way, they could keep everything consistent between books, and benefit from the input of many writers, not just one or two at a time (who may have different opinions of what SMs can and can't do.)

Whenever the next version of the DA codex comes out, I'm sure all our complaints will have been heard and addressed. Until then, play Imperial Guard! :evilgrin:

Toe Cutter
13-02-2009, 14:32
To be honest though, do they really need codex releases to drum up interest in space marines? With the new wave release system they've got going on, they can release batches of miniatures independently of rules development and the space marine codex is, by far, the most regularly updated one so even if they just have one codex for all of them, they'd keep the interest at a fairly high level.

If you have all the marines in an uber codex written by a few core designers though you could really take the whole marine thing forward as a concept rather than updating this or that type of marine in fits and starts.

There are few constants in life but death, taxes and people complaining on the internet are ever lasting pillars in a constantly changing world.

People will complain about what GW does regardless of what it does.

PS - band wagon jumper, guard for the guard say I lol ;)

Darkangeldentist
13-02-2009, 14:51
Whenever the next version of the DA codex comes out, I'm sure all our complaints will have been heard and addressed. Until then, play Imperial Guard! :evilgrin:

I might well do that. After the GT final of course.:)

I really doubt the Dark angels will be merged into the marine book, although I could possibly see them combined with the Blood angels again. (Even that's a long shot in the extreme.) They seem to do rather well as a stand alone codex and the couple of plastic kits they released for them seem to sell pretty well. I seem to see the robed marines all over the place and used by people with chaos, marine and templar armies. Also their current book may be a little out of date but it was written a year and half ago for a different edition (for all people can argue it being written with prior knowledge it was still written for 4th) so that complaint isn't very compelling. The wargear issues could have been handled much better but there's always another book (fingers crossed) to correct that bugbear. Lastly when it comes to overall success Dark angels are doing pretty damned respectably even with inferior wargear.

Are Dark angels getting the short end of the stick? Short answer, yes but not as much as some people would have you believe.

march10k
13-02-2009, 18:37
Aye, they were a bit miffed, but seriously, I have never seen a more whiny bunch of players than Dark Angel players. I've not seen any Space Wolf Players whining about how we have Ld9 Psychics, or no Free Frag and Krak, or no Free Special Weapons, or how we pay old Points (RAW) for Rhinos and Razorbacks.

No, why? Because we shrug and get on with life (I personally couldn't care less, at least WE'LL get a new codex with the Updated rules come December, unlike the Emo Marines who will be waiting years :))


1. Take a flying leap through the eye of terror if you want to lump all DA players in with the couple of vocal whiners. I'll spot a mangy pack of space pups a 20% points advantage and wipe the floor with you all day long and twice on Sunday.

2. "Free" kraks and frags? :rolleyes: Uh, no...try "forced to pay for kraks and frags," not to mention pistols. And, if you hadn't noticed, we're stuck with LD9 psychers, too, with the exception of one special character...and we don't have a ten year old codex to blame. Glass houses and all that.

Grand Master Raziel
13-02-2009, 19:57
I could get behind consolidating Marine books as much as can feasably be done. I think the Blood Angels and Dark Angels army lists could be brought under the aegis of the next edition of Codex: Space Marines without losing too much in the process. I do think they need to get rid of attaching chapter-specific special rules to special characters, though. Why should a Raven Guard army led by a Librarian be any less Raven Guard-y than one led by Shrike (ditto for any particular first founding chapter and their corresponding special character). Instead, have a default Chapter Tactics for the Ultramarines (the current rule is pretty awesome), but give players the option of picking different ones depending upon what chapter they play, with the understanding that they get that particular Chapter Tactics instead of the default (Ultramarines) Chapter Tactics. Some examples of what those Chapter Tactics might be:

Dark Angels: Stubborn: All Dark Angels Space Marines may use the Leadership characteristic of any (allied) DA Independent Character on the table instead of their own for Morale and Pinning tests. DA Terminator Squads must be upgraded to Deathwing Squads for +X points and gain (such and such). DA Bike Squadrons must be upgraded to Ravenwing Squadrons for +X points and gain (such and such).

Salamanders: Prometheans: Any Salamanders infantry unit that may take one or more heavy weapons may take a heavy flamer in an available heavy weapon slot for +X points. Salamanders Independent Characters and Veteran Sergeants may master-craft one weapon per character for +15pts.

Raven Guard: Strike from the Shadows: All Raven Guard infantry units and jump pack units gain the Fleet USR. A Raven Guard player with at least one unit of Scouts on the table may (gain a certain bonus to Reserves rolls).

Etc. I'm not going to go on down the line and do each loyalist First Founding chapter in turn, because this isn't the thread for that. Nor am I claiming that the examples I gave are perfect or balanced or anything - it's just a bit of impromptu brainstorming.

Now, where I'm having trouble envisioning specific chapters getting enveloped into the next Codex: Space Marines is with the Space Wolves and the Black Templars. Those two chapters have rules that are so different from a codex-adherent chapter that I don't think you can easily accomodate them without losing a large amount of their thematic appeal.

Another issue that would face a unified dex with Dark Angels and Blood Angels in it would be the matter of space devoted to background material. I don't think DA and BA players would much care for their chapters playing second fiddle to the boys in blue. Since 3rd edition, Codex: Space Marines has been the de-facto Codex: Ultramarines. If the next edition were to be expected to include the Dark Angels and Blood Angels, then Codex: Space Marines would have to be truly a Codex: Space Marines, not Codex: Ultramarines and their sidekicks. I think you'd have to give equal space to each and every currently active First Founding chapter. That's nine in total: The Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, White Scars, Salamanders, and the Space Wolves (if GW decides to shoehorn them in somehow). That would truly be a mammoth book - but if GW did a good job with it, I'd be happy to buy it.

Warforger
13-02-2009, 23:49
The only reason the SM codex was so thick was because they had a ton of fluff (it'll take till past the middle of the book to get past ti) and half of that was just Ultramarine propaganda. Here's a thought, throw the Ultramarines with those other guys over there, and they could stay as one of the main chapters, so like a story for Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Raven Guard ,Imperial Fists and Ultramarines.

Hankyaku
14-02-2009, 00:09
Why didn't they do a "Codex:Ultramarines"? :D I mean whem somebody plays "Pink panties" chapter and a player asks, whan kind of marines are these, then he/she says "Same as Ultra". Then ppl. taking a look at C:SM wouldn't look at it like "umm... there are 5 UM characters, but why only one Crimson Fist character, Raven Guard, etc.?"

Ah yeah, and about the "non whiner SW's, who just shrug it up and get on with life".
How interesting is that... a new codex comes out, they get a lot of the new stuff. Still they have their own psycher with a good power, also get the possibility to include multiple HQ units (giving the option for more hard hitting units, also don't forget the spec rule of the SW HQ dreadnought). They're still a good chapter. Frankly, I wouldn't change much on the SWs... adjust the points, some skills along with them. Maybe something new, but I don't really think they need a rewrite so hard. Yes their codex is old, but that still holds for DE as well. Still their codex is good, as well. (What harm could 12 dark lance do from 600 points? Also a flying transport with desintegrator?) The fluffs are also great. Sometimes I just don't understand rewriting soo many fluffwise things.
We need new rules, to change the game, to make it balanced and challening. But having a codex rewritten "because it's old" is just so plain weird.
Personally I could go on easily with my necrons even if no single word of fluff would be changed, but the abilities and point cost would be adjusted. Just make it go along with 5th, make it a viable opponent against the "new sweet boys". The fluff is good as it is.

TheLionReturns
14-02-2009, 00:15
:D cheers I was pretty good eh?

Seems we have a bit of problem here. Either you could lump all marines into one codex and consign the (almost inevitable) problems with wargear consistency to the past (along with a lot of the fluff diversity as well unfortunately) or you can keep the nice diverse rich backgrounds for each chapter specific codex with the proviso that the wargear will inevitably be a bit fluffed.

Can't have both it would seem.

BA and DA in C:SM would make sense as they are mostly codex chapters. The biggest drawback is the potential loss of the great background that has been built up over the years. I do however, think one big SM codex is feasible. It would just require the release of chapter specific background books to keep the fluff compiled and accessible. In fact I think this would be a great way of expanding the fluff on many of the other first founding chapters that are neglected currently, and indeed their successors (which I would forsee being covered in the tome of their relevant first founding chapter). Sure it may be added expense, but it is a price I for one would be willing to pay if it meant expanded fluff and a decent consistent rule set. Certainly the cost of the extra book is minor compared what we spend on the model side of things anyway.

The problem with this approach is a business one for GW. They seem to rely on a regular SM release and combining DA and BA into the C:SM would reduce these. Releasing upgrade sets (infantry and vehicle) for the relevant chapter with each background book may be a viable model, especially if this is accompanied by perhaps specific company veteran models and maybe the odd redo of an ageing model line. In fact it would probably be a converters dream having so many different new bits to choose from.

This would cure DA problems rules wise but there are still SW, BT and Grey Knights to think about. My complaints may reference DA but that is because I play them. It doesn't mean I think such problems are acceptible for other armies. The only real solution I can see is to reference the SM codex for vehicle and wargear entries for these armies, unless they could also be worked into the combined codex. Seems unlikely but I haven't given it enough thought to judge accurately.

I also agree that any combined list shouldn't rely on special characters to flavor the armies. I think that a trait system is better and an improved version of that would be the best choice.

Warforger
14-02-2009, 00:24
BA and DA in C:SM would make sense as they are mostly codex chapters. The biggest drawback is the potential loss of the great background that has been built up over the years

Like that hasn't happened, how do you think us BA players feel about only 3 pages of fluff?

Hankyaku
14-02-2009, 00:32
I think that a trait system is better and an improved version of that would be the best choice.

That _should have been_ the best choice.
At the time of the 3rd ed, there was a small supplement book, which served a C: DA. It relied mainly on the C:SM book, contained fluff, and armly list,which countained refrence to C:SM units, and also the new units and chars. That was a great solution.

When the 4th ed C: DA came out, I was happy to see such a nice book. The only reason why it would've made me nervous was the fact, that the BT got a separate codex. That would've been an unfair solution, but the one we have noadays ain't better. That was what I've felt, when the BA WD "issues" became available. Inducting lists into a WD is a good idea in itself. But with a list like the BA it's just funny. I'd have understood it with Crimson or Imperial fist, or Raven Guard, but with BA???
Looking past the fact, that it's quite unfair, I think it's very practical. It'd be a good way to update C: DA. DA players have the fluff material anyway!
If I'd have known what they're planning at the release of C: DA... I'd just have said 'no thanks', and would presumably have had voted for the SW (the other chapter I like), or would just have went on with my Raven Guard.

Super Ninja
14-02-2009, 15:23
Honestly I dont worry about it too much. The new vanila dex has some nice new tidbits and wargear, but they are comparatively minor changes. In fact, in my opinion, the BA codex has afew bonuses over C: SM, like how Tac squads can be 5 men and can still take a special weapon. Plus, we can just download it of the internet, while vanilas have to shell out 30$. In regards to vehicles, I just use IA 2 to get the updated vehicle rules (still cant have a redemmer though, but then I never liked the idea of templates on vehicles anyway, my Baal has heavy bolters).

Vesica
14-02-2009, 16:07
Hi all, I've recently been looking at the space wolves and Dark angles FAQs and it seems that the space wolves are aloud the landraider redeemer where as dark angles don't. Isn't this a little unfair, I'm not saying that the redeemer is game winning, its just a very nice and good looking option. Plus the space wolves list is still considerably competitive (having been beaten by them 2 weeks ago :p), I just don't see why space wolves get special treatment. I believe that blood angles have gotten the same end of the stick as DA, any thoughts on why this is?

Thanks in advanced for any replies.

Because BA and DA are like 50x better than every other chapter so we have to be 'nerfed' as it is so that our awesomeness doesnt drown out the other chapters :D.

march10k
14-02-2009, 16:16
Another issue that would face a unified dex with Dark Angels and Blood Angels in it would be the matter of space devoted to background material. I don't think DA and BA players would much care for their chapters playing second fiddle to the boys in blue. Since 3rd edition, Codex: Space Marines has been the de-facto Codex: Ultramarines. If the next edition were to be expected to include the Dark Angels and Blood Angels, then Codex: Space Marines would have to be truly a Codex: Space Marines, not Codex: Ultramarines and their sidekicks. I think you'd have to give equal space to each and every currently active First Founding chapter. That's nine in total: The Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, White Scars, Salamanders, and the Space Wolves (if GW decides to shoehorn them in somehow). That would truly be a mammoth book - but if GW did a good job with it, I'd be happy to buy it.


Agreed!!!! Make it as thick as the BBB, with 30 pages for each first founding chapter (including their successors in that 30), and even tyranid and ork players will buy it at $50 a copy, just for the fluff.

Warforger
14-02-2009, 16:20
Oh and lets make it hardback! Then lets make 100 pages of fluff for every other army because ther are sub parts to them

AngryAngel
14-02-2009, 17:09
Or we could do this. They could have actualy updated the DA equipment first, and the BA to what the new marine codex would have made it. Then made the vanilla dex. Or, lets be really crazy and say they could have remade the vanilla dex, then made the other marine variant dexes so we didn't have a problem in consistency.

We could also, have the same person work on all the marine dexes so their vision while diffrent from chapter to chapter is also unified in terms to wargear, costs and set up.

Not to mention they could still make a large and descriptive codex with fluff and the like and say to refer to the Codex Space marine book for wargear, weapons rules. Yeah it forces you to get 2 books. However many people get alot of them anyways and I would gladly pay for the 2 books to maintain some form of consistency with like wargear.

Starchild
14-02-2009, 19:33
In that case, GW could just divorce all the army lists from the Codex books, and then post the army lists online and/or in store. That way, there could be regular updates for every army, not just two or three a year. :(

The problem remains, however, that the GW Development Team does not see eye to eye on everything. Mat Ward got his Calgar-loving book approved by GW corporate, with little or no input from Jervis Johnson (apparently). That explains the differences in the wargear and point values, among other things.

Warforger
14-02-2009, 19:54
I wonder if he knows even SM players hate him and want to bury him? Really the new SM codex was one of the biggest mistakes GW has done since Apocalypse.

can a mod please fix the title of the thread as a side note, I mean, we're not talking about dark math after all.

Anyway I personally would just bash the DA and BA codices into the SM codex and create sublists again, this time take less time in producing Ultramarine propaganda and more time balancing the sublists.

summerlove
19-03-2009, 12:26
well i am currently an eldar and black templar player. i wanted to add ravenwing or doomwing to my armys i play. but seriously the fact that so many dark angel players sound like they are self entitled whiners makes me think twice if i want to be associated with this bunch.

Frontier
19-03-2009, 14:19
I am going to tell you the same thing I told every other player I play with. Play them with the 5th ed dex. I really don't care if you do. Oddly enough, the red shirts at my GW agreed with me on this assessment. It is incredibly stupid that these chapters have inferior equipment. It makes no sense at all. What? Their forges are worse than others? Dumb dumb dumb.

Hypaspist
19-03-2009, 16:12
... the fact that so many dark angel players sound like they are self entitled whiners makes me think twice if i want to be associated with this bunch.

I would disagree (you will find the disaffected everywhere!), some people aren't happy that Dark Angels are currently below the Space marines equivalent, (in terms of points costs etc) forgetting that there was a time when the DA Codex was the one with all the toys.....
The ascendency of a Codex is very cyclical and will not be the strongest or the best for very long...
the difference between Codex marines and DA is...

Dark Angels do it with Style!

dean
19-03-2009, 16:46
forgetting that there was a time when the DA Codex was the one with all the toys.....The ascendency of a Codex is very cyclical and will not be the strongest or the best for very long...
the difference between Codex marines and DA is...

Dark Angels do it with Style!

There was?

The only new toys that c: DA gave us over SMv4.0 was combat squads, cheaper marines with more gear and flame castalan missles for the WW. That is the point of the "whineing", we didnt have our day of cyclical acendancy in the first place...

However we do do it with style...

Ronin_eX
19-03-2009, 17:09
There was?

The only new toys that c: DA gave us over SMv4.0 was combat squads, cheaper marines with more gear and flame castalan missles for the WW. That is the point of the "whineing", we didnt have our day of cyclical acendancy in the first place...

However we do do it with style...

Indeed, when the new DA codex came out it was largely touted as an internally balanced but weal compared to other lists. This was supposed to change with later releases of course but when Orks and Space Marines hit the promised balance shift never happened and Dark Angels remain a weak overall list with relatively few passable builds. It was a weak yet workable list before but with army power levels on the rise they are quickly being left behind again.

I will say it again, even on release the Dark Angels codex wasn't that great, we didn't get fancy new toys, just some tweaks and lots of restrictions. Some were okay with this because we thought GW would handle the rest of the armies the same way. But Orks is vastly more powerful and Space Marines are intrinsically better than the DA (the price tags on units are so skewed one wonders if they test at all).

If GW can't be arsed to balance things properly they should just get rid of all marine sub-codices, yes even wolves and BT. One marine list only should help their chronic lack of playtesting and complete lack of design goals.

Hypaspist
19-03-2009, 18:00
(you will find the disaffected everywhere!),

I think I came over wrong here, I was angling that every army will have it's own internal detractors, (not that these people are 'whiners') not that Dark Angel players are unjustified in their criticism's (which isn't necassarily whining),
poorly worded though, apologies.


The only new toys that c: DA gave us over SMv4.0 was combat squads, cheaper marines with more gear and flame castalan missles for the WW.

hmm. a bit unfair, strength 4 shotguns, potential for all terminator and all biker armies (in built teleport homers on every one), or a combination, with said bikers (and Terminators) being fearless. I think the flexibility Combat squads gave us was a distinct advantage initially. (and this point may be invalidated by experienced tournament players, but I found it very useful in my play group)
I will concede that they were well balanced and costed though, and not as overpowering as current codices are perceived to be.

I don't care what the smurf's say, no Chapter master is as hard as Azrael...