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xragg
05-02-2009, 16:48
With the current tourny environment seeing demons growing more and more in numbers to the point that alot of the top places are usually represented by like 50% demon armies, I am really considering making an anti-demon army to just run at tournies. I am curious what people would play (other then demons) if they were purely writing a list to nuetralize demon armies. I realize there are a few power gaming demon armies out there, so the list would have to be flexible enough to deal with all variants demons typically through out there.

Dooks Dizzo
05-02-2009, 16:52
I'd say super cheesed out Vampires should do a fair job.

Malorian
05-02-2009, 16:57
Magic heavy can do it but it's still a tough fight if the deamon army has the right elements in it (horros for DD, thirster for hunting your general, hounds/flamers).

The problem with making an anti deamon list is that there are so many different deamon lists you'll see in a tournament. Personally I'd just take an all comers list and just take it as it comes.

Dooks Dizzo
05-02-2009, 17:12
I say Vamps because you can use big blocks of super cheap undead to bog him down, hold his tough units in place and set up your own best case scenario's when it comes to combats.

Jormi_Boced
05-02-2009, 17:53
I am hoping the new Lizards with Engines of the Gods should do a good job!

blackjack
05-02-2009, 17:57
EOTG will not do the job. Daemons have better defence against EOTG than any other army. EOTG ignores armor saves, Daemons have universal 5+. As Malorian noted there are simply too many top deamon builds to counter them all. (Great wall of nurgle, tz flying circus, khorne and tz combos etc...)

Hotek DE will do well against a flying circus or Tz heavy army.
Cheese Vamps are probably your best bet against all commers.

CaliforniaGamer
05-02-2009, 17:59
EOTG will not do the job. Daemons have better defence against EOTG than any other army. EOTG ignores armor saves, Daemons have universal 5+. As Malorian noted there are simply too many top deamon builds to counter them all. (Great wall of nurgle, tz flying circus, khorne and tz combos etc...)

Hotek DE will do well against a flying circus or Tz heavy army.
Cheese Vamps are probably your best bet against all commers.

both true and depressing.

Cpt. Obvious
05-02-2009, 18:54
I feel that almost any army can be suited to be "anti daemon" the main issues to address are:
Psychology: answer spread out your leadership/run immune to psych or fear troops

Uber Lords: run tar traps or a lord of your own to neutralize

Their Ward save: meh, its going to be there but the main idea is the more attacks/wounds you do the more chances of failing a ward save. Personally I would rather wound a daemon and have them roll a constant ward save of 5+ than a bretonnia army of variable 2+ and then wards

dal9ll
05-02-2009, 19:17
Youll need something to kill the Heralds, particularly the Nurgle Herald on Palaquin and the Tzeentch Herald. Plaguebearers are junk without the Herald. Magic Weapons like the Tenderizer (Ogres) or the Weeping Blades (Skaven), ones that deal D6 or D3 wounds etc., might be great for killing Greater Daemons. These items are just as examples of course.

Dooks Dizzo
05-02-2009, 19:48
Is sniping Heralds with Buboes a good plan?

Ixquic
05-02-2009, 20:35
Not really. With Tzeench you have to get through a 4+ ward and with Nurgle you have to go through a 5+ ward then a 4+ regen. Most Demon armies will also have enough dispel dice to overpower enemy magic phases anyway so most of those spells won't even go off.

Lord Dan
05-02-2009, 20:38
I'm with Malorian, here. Other OTT armies are fairly easily neutralized because you know what to expect. With VC, you can expect lots of magic, so you work to counter that. With Slayers you can expect lots of CC, so you work to counter that. In an Empire gunline you can expect a bunch of guns, so counter that. With Daemons, however, there are so many different builds that are all powerful that there's no real way to counter them all.

All-comers.

Grunge
05-02-2009, 20:39
Versus anything Tzeentch heavy -> Master Rune of Gugni. Almost halves the carnage.

Ixquic
05-02-2009, 21:17
If I KNEW for a fact that I was playing Tzeentch and I had High Elves it would be something like a two hero level mages with 4 dispel scrolls, Caradryan in Phoenix Guard and a mage lord with that stone that ends the magic phase along with a big unit of Dragon Princes with the banner of immune to fear.

Lijacote
05-02-2009, 21:18
Not really. With Tzeench you have to get through a 4+ ward and with Nurgle you have to go through a 5+ ward then a 4+ regen. Most Demon armies will also have enough dispel dice to overpower enemy magic phases anyway so most of those spells won't even go off.

The 4+ ward is when you have a minimum of 115 points invested in a unit of 120 points, all of which is T3 and no other save than the 4+ ward (which they lose when you kill the T3 WS3 W2 model with a 4+ save)... And if you have a minimum sized unit of horrors, it's going to die relatively easily to any decent opposition. Tzeentch can't get better saves than a 5+ ward (with a possible reroll that you can use on one roll of d6 each player turn) other than with heralds in units of horrors.

Oops, I forgot all daemon armies can do everything excellently while not lacking numbers or having weak spots.

deggaroth
05-02-2009, 21:48
Before DOC came out, it was generally considered a good idea to tailor a tourney army that could deal with fast armies, magic armies, heavy combat armies, and gunlines. The only thing that has changed is that you need to tailor your list to deal with psychology, and you should be fine.

decker_cky
05-02-2009, 22:17
Blade of realities is quite solid against daemons.

Against a herald, if you get 2 hits, you'll kill it outright 48% of the time. With 3 hits, you'll kill it outright 62% of the time (and 3 hits is quite likely against all but the khorne herald).

Against a greater daemon, with 2 hits you'll have a 30% chance of killing it outright. With 3 you'll have a 42% chance of killing it outright. Against GDs, you'll average 2.5 hits so there's approximately a 36% chance of killing them in a given turn (I'm leaving out the chance of 0, 1, 4 and 5 hits so we're focused on the most common cases).

I think that's about as good as things get against daemonic characters.

Engine of the gods is solid against daemons. No, you don't ignore armour, but that's why they compensate with extra strength against daemons. I don't think I'd spend all the points on it unless I had a slann too.

Terradons, salamanders and skinks will all be solid units to harass most anything, even flamers. Saurus with spears are one of the better units to fight against daemons since they have a huge weight of attacks rather than using high strength to depend on kills. They don't go head to head with plaguebearers very well, but they'll cut down most everything else quite well. Actually...if you have the blade of realities oldblood on a cold one in a unit of saurus, you have something that can go head to head with plaguebearers too.

shredshredxx
05-02-2009, 22:17
depending on what type of army it is, i guess you could cater your list to counter theirs,

for example a slaan eotg list or mannfred led/magic heavy vc list to shut out the stereotypical tzeentch magicky list,

but i'd say it's always better to use the all-comers list you usually stick with and just use sound tactics to counter their lack thereof. spamming fatty spells is not a tactic, and the beauty of warhammer is that there are more than a few ways to deal with every threat.

i honestly really enjoy playing against daemon lists, they're a hella fun challenge