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View Full Version : Gw, Hurry Up Production!!



aakurtz
03-12-2005, 22:28
Correct me if im wrong... didnt OK come out last christmas? and WE this summer...

OK was already a YEAR AGO! For christ sakes GW... what are you guys doing all day? Hurry up on the next campaine or do something!... I got an idea... hows about you drop that terrible LOTR idea and give WH some attention. Im sick of reading my WD looking for more warhammer content and i just find LOTR garbage.

I got a crazy idea.... why not UPDATE THE WORLD. what happened at the end of the SOC? What changed? Move borders! kill heroes! give us new fluff!

ok im done for now.

BlazeXI
03-12-2005, 22:48
Correct me if im wrong... didnt OK come out last christmas? and WE this summer...

OK was already a YEAR AGO! For christ sakes GW... what are you guys doing all day? Hurry up on the next campaine or do something!... I got an idea... hows about you drop that terrible LOTR idea and give WH some attention. Im sick of reading my WD looking for more warhammer content and i just find LOTR garbage.

I got a crazy idea.... why not UPDATE THE WORLD. what happened at the end of the SOC? What changed? Move borders! kill heroes! give us new fluff!

ok im done for now.

Sorry mate, it is GW's schedule to release 2 armies to a system per annum.
Apparently they make a huge profit on LotR franchise, for which they paid a lot. Not that I do not share your view. As to fluff....we're left with Black Library....

Marikano
03-12-2005, 22:53
Yeah, kinda sucks. I'd love to see more stuff, but hey, their loss right? I just spend the money I WOULD have handed to them to WotC, AEG or Blizzard ;)

As for affecting the world... much as I'd like to see it, GW has stated that that's not in their plans at all. They don't want to change the world to avoid "alienating their players".

Yeah.

I don't get it either.

Muffin Man
03-12-2005, 22:57
[QUOTE=aakurtz]Correct me if im wrong... didnt OK come out last christmas? and WE this summer...

OK was already a YEAR AGO! For christ sakes GW... what are you guys doing all day?[\QUOTE]

I'm not sure what you're point is? OK was a year ago ok, since then they released a WE book and the Lustria campaign and are on the verge of releasing the Dwarf book. 2 army books, a campaign, new plastics for dwarves, lizardmen and some new high elf and dwarf characters not to mention the entire WE line.

Stouty
04-12-2005, 00:31
aakurtz they seem to be releasing things pretty fast to me (or at least, to schedule). Things take time to do right. This reasoning coupled with your statements in your other thread might indicate they should be doing things slower.

sulla
04-12-2005, 03:37
OK was already a YEAR AGO! For christ sakes GW... what are you guys doing all day? Hurry up on the next campaine or do something!... I got an idea... hows about you drop that terrible LOTR idea and give WH some attention.

How 'bout they drop both LoTR and Warhammer so they can focus on more stuff for 40K? LoTR complaints are so boring. Obviously someone plays it or else they wouldn't keep making stuff for it.

aakurtz
04-12-2005, 05:36
aakurtz they seem to be releasing things pretty fast to me (or at least, to schedule). Things take time to do right. This reasoning coupled with your statements in your other thread might indicate they should be doing things slower.


I dont understand... why do they have to be slow or poor rule writers? Its is one or the other? If my table top war game is going to have a monopoly like GW does, i ask for neither.

Muffin Man
04-12-2005, 06:23
I wonder what the limiting factor in GW's production schedule is actually? Rules writing, rules testing, miniature design, manufacturing, ect?

Although, I think it's a bit of a reach to think that canning LotR's would bring resources back to Fantasy. Look what happened when they rolled back Specialist Games, they let go of several members of the 40k design team rather than add it.

On the quality of the rules, I think that's what happens when you have a system built upon 5 previous editions. Hence, IMO the left over and unnecessary 0-1 restrictions when you are already restricted by Core/Special/Rare selections in this edition.

Adept
04-12-2005, 09:00
I got an idea... hows about you drop that terrible LOTR idea and give WH some attention. Im sick of reading my WD looking for more warhammer content and i just find LOTR garbage

LotR is a brilliant system with simple, elegant game design and lists, brilliant scenario driven game-play, a far better game setting than either of GW's other game universes, and better models to boot.

Added to that, it generated (IIRC) 28 percent of GW's overall profits last financial year. There is simply no reason to drop it to make more uninspired WHFB armies, or to endlessly re-release newer versions of WHFB or 40K to keep the profits rolling in. I could quite happily continue playing with my 6th edition armies and rules for the rest of my life, free of updates and newer versions, just as there is still a strong following for 2nd edition 40K.

My point? There is no need to bash a system just because you don't play it. In additon, updates and re-releases for their own sake aren't to be desired.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
04-12-2005, 09:32
I agree with everything Adept said except the better models and what he called "game" setting. Middle Earth is a great fantasy setting for reading about and visiting in your mind. The Warhammer World, even if not as thought out, is a lot funner to battle it out in because there is so much that can be left to the imagination. I'm not bashing LotR, but I had to set the record straight that LotR is a better universe in itself, but for wargaming, warhammer is better. That brings me to another point: LotR would have been a lot greater if it weren't based off of the release and cast and imagery of the movie. I'd happily play the same game, same rules, same scenarios if only the rulebooks wasn't filled with pictures from a movie (good as the trilogy may be) based on contemporary actors as well as miniatures. Warhammer doesn't include current popular icons in it (although, Archaon's whole existence is a carload of grox<edit> and don't get me started with valten) and this gives it a timeless feel that i simply did not feel when i was looking into LotR.
Tangent: it would kinda blow if they made a warhammer movie with sean connery as archaon and brad pitt as valten (brainless prettyboy)...I'd quit the hobby at that point.

Quetzl
04-12-2005, 11:38
OK was already a YEAR AGO! For christ sakes GW... what are you guys doing all day? Hurry up on the next campaine or do something!... I got an idea... hows about you drop that terrible LOTR idea and give WH some attention. Im sick of reading my WD looking for more warhammer content and i just find LOTR garbage.


ERRRMM! I disagree with the idea that LoTR is a crap game and that it shouldn't be graced in the pages of White Dwarf. There are many reasons for this:
Firstly, if it wasn't for the great expansion of LoTR and the amount of money it poured into GW in the first place. Fantasy and 40k would be a shadow of what they are now, the plastics would be crapper, metals crapper etc.
Secondly, it has just as much right to be in the White Dwarfs and have its own tournaments.
Thirdly, there are other people out their who play the game, just because you might not doesn't mean everyone else who does shouldn't. *I don't play LoTR but I don't say that it is crap and non deserving*

Back on to the case of GW producing slowly...

Little Recap... This year we have had lots and lots of things released, Tyranids, Ogre Kingdoms, Lustria, Black Templars, Wood Elves, New LoTR rulebook... Shortly there will be Tau aswell! *Thats loads* considering their quality and their design I think that they have done bloody well. Add on top staff problems, their buisness facing plenty of problems in the money department, the shedding of staff!!!! They haven't done bad at all this year.

I think that you just need to think a bit outside the box, mainly about buisness and how things sell. If they brought out Black Templars on top of Dwarfs then they would negate sales etc. Anyway thats enough from me, just have a little think about ;)

devolutionary
04-12-2005, 11:42
Dammit, all these people saying LotR is good... I feel the need to purchase it now :(

I say bring back Specialist Games IN FORCE! Let them and FW join forces for models and games! Give us our bloody Gorka Morka back, screw the other games ! :D

Adept
04-12-2005, 11:55
Dammit, all these people saying LotR is good... I feel the need to purchase it now :(

Or you can do it like I did; buy a few models here and there because they were cool, then look at the collection one day and realise you've inadvertantly bought an entire army!


I say bring back Specialist Games IN FORCE! Let them and FW join forces for models and games! Give us our bloody Gorka Morka back, screw the other games ! :D

How good was Gorkamorka! Such a shame it isn't on the SG website. I've actually got a Gorkers warband in progress on my desk in front of me.

devolutionary
04-12-2005, 12:10
I loved my muties and rebel grots. When GW cleared out their stock I got two full warbands for about NZ$40. Good times had playing those buggers, complete with hand crank vehicles and jezzails.

Dr Death
04-12-2005, 15:02
Yeah, Gorkamorka was class. I admit it was ever so slightly before my time (or at least before i realised how cool it was) but it was the one thing that more than any other that defined the direction of orks ever since. Most of the models from it are still in popular usage and havnt aged a day despite being 8 years old. Up the rebel!.....Grots;) (cheesy but it had to be done)

As for ditching Lotr, never! Lord of the Rings if not doing much directly for Warhammer is just as good a game and deserves to stay just on that principle. What it has done for GW as a whole is immesurable, brought in huge amounts of money, increased the ability of the casting technology, produced some stunning miniatures, the list goes on. Stop trying to win popular support by insulting the "easy target" which those too ignorant to understand the games beauty can just say "yeah, we dont like that, wow, neither do you cause of all GW's problems, yeah!"

While im not 100% keen on what GW have released this year, its still a fair old bit.

Dr Death

Karhedron
04-12-2005, 15:24
I dont understand... why do they have to be slow or poor rule writers? Its is one or the other? If my table top war game is going to have a monopoly like GW does, i ask for neither.
The reason for this is that there are only a limited number of people working in the studio and a limited number of sculptors. That is why they cannot churn out stuff any faster than they do. If they did, quality would suffer. Just look at the early 3rd edition 40K codices if you do not believe me. They were released every 2 months roughly.

The easy answer is to hire more staff but that can affect quality too. You have to hire people who understand the whole genre AND are good at their job too. Hiring new sculptors can be risky, just look at the aweful Captain Cortez model to see what happens when you let inexperienced sculptors loose on your lines.

Stouty
04-12-2005, 19:14
*Remember cortez*

Who was that guy?

Adept
05-12-2005, 02:31
*Remember cortez*

Who was that guy?

Ah, Disco Cortez...

Crazy Harborc
05-12-2005, 03:17
Could GW churn out a "perfect" set of rules, no mistakes, nothing left out?? Sure they could/can. BUT, if they do, how will they justify a new edition of a system that's perfect??

Col. Dash
05-12-2005, 03:47
LOL Beautiful game? I will agree it has a couple nice models, especially the bigger ones like the Balrog, but rules-wise it is one of the most broken systems I have ever played. I played three games and it is so hero-hammerish it isnt funny. Having a single hero completely surrounded by a cave troll and 20 odd orcs and Urik-hai with alot of spears and not being able to get a single hit in because he rolled a single 6 on his attacks, what kind of BS game would allow that to happen?
3rd edition 40k codexes were released so rapidly becuase they completely screwed over 2nd edition players and made every single army and army list completely obsolete. They decided to get away from a fun skirmish game and turn it into a blander, some say quicker(I dont), tourney game. If they didnt put out codices quickly they would have completely lost momentum and not gotten new players. Especially since new players were badly needed since they basically bent all the old players over and said "screw you, we dont need you." Every 40k player I knew from 2nd ed sold their armies and quit playing.
GWs production schedule is ok, but i think they should concentrate on putting out the old before starting new stuff. For example, they should have done chaos dwarves instead of ogre kingdoms, and done OK after WE, or instead of that, how about the Cathay or Nippon armies they always hint at in the fluff but never really do anything with. I would drop everything in a heartbeat to do a samurai army. Oh well.

Adept
05-12-2005, 05:58
LOL Beautiful game? I will agree it has a couple nice models, especially the bigger ones like the Balrog, but rules-wise it is one of the most broken systems I have ever played. I played three games and it is so hero-hammerish it isnt funny. Having a single hero completely surrounded by a cave troll and 20 odd orcs and Urik-hai with alot of spears and not being able to get a single hit in because he rolled a single 6 on his attacks, what kind of BS game would allow that to happen?

Wow, imagine that. A game about the Lord of the Rings being dominated by powerful characters...

:rolleyes:


they should have done chaos dwarves instead of ogre kingdoms, and done OK after WE, or instead of that, how about the Cathay or Nippon armies they always hint at in the fluff but never really do anything with. I would drop everything in a heartbeat to do a samurai army. Oh well.

:eyebrows:

How bland. Whee, samurai! Come on, it's pretty hard to defend the WHFB world as unique and interesting. Perhaps unique in the volume and audacity of it's 'inspiration'. All they've done is rip a half-dozen themes out of their original settings and mix them all in together. Way to go GW.

It doesn't bother me much, since the games are fun and the fluff is there for those who want it, but it doesn't hold a candle to Tolkien's work and simply adding in yet more insipid new armies won't make the game better or more interesting.

devolutionary
05-12-2005, 06:06
God we aren't getting in to the bloody Samurai armies are we? Can we keep the oriental styled forces out of it? I'm thoroughly happy with the eurocentric landscape that WHFB currently paints. Samurais and Ninjas are just so damn BORING. When will you all realise that?

TitusAndronicus
05-12-2005, 06:31
I LIKE ninja armies. They are teh invisible. You could just put a quarter onna table and there you go!

I do agree though. No desire to go asiatic meself.

I have issues enuogh with the mongol troll kingdoms...

Gorbad Ironclaw
05-12-2005, 09:55
If my table top war game is going to have a monopoly like GW does, i ask for neither.


:rolleyes: Yup, surprisingly GW have a monopoly on there own game... Just like Battlefront have a monopoly on Flames of War... Or just how most companies have a monopoly on there own products...


There are tons of alternative products out there if you want something different, it just requires you to look, but the constant complaining about how GW is a monopoly is rather silly

SuperBeast
05-12-2005, 10:49
I dont understand... why do they have to be slow or poor rule writers? Its is one or the other? If my table top war game is going to have a monopoly like GW does, i ask for neither.
It's not your table top wargame.
It's GW's. You bought it from them. But you can ask away if you like.
Plus your statements show that you have absolutely no idea as to how the development process at GW works.

You have to bear in mind that GW is a company staffed and run by big kids in a toy shop of their own design.
Unfortunately, that idea doesn't work as a global business, so they had to get the Big Suits involved to keep the company on a financial even keel.

Thus, whilst the writers/designers have relatively free reign, where product is involved (whether printed or sculpted) they have to follow a business plan of some sort.
If they sped up their release schedule, we'd be in trouble. As would the product quality.
They'd be forced to make unnecessary changes to the rules just to have something to justify the release ("We've only got 10 minutes until deadline! Erm... Shall we drop handgunners?")
The miniature sculptors would be pressed to tighter and tighter deadlines - so the quality would suffer (especially as the plastics process takes so long and has way more technical constraints than lead casting).
Players would get annoyed because they'd be having to re-learn how to fight against opponents every month or so.

So if I have to choose between a 6-year high-quality product cycle, and a 2-year low-quality one, I'll take the long haul every time, than you very much.

Reabe
05-12-2005, 22:33
Sigmar, damnit! When will they make the Dogs of War army, already? Are they going to become the Warhammer version of the 40k Squats?

It almost makes me want to blow &#163;40+ on going to a Games Day and spite 'em by asking about what's happening to the Squats. I know it's their system and their company, but we've collected an army of Dogs of War, and we want some proper rules to use them with! Empire just doesn't do it. I want my pikes!

Shadowheart
06-12-2005, 08:12
Even if GW could release a complete new army every month, why would they want to do that? Who the hell would buy all that stuff? The amount of potential customers and their cash isn't infinite.

Personally I'm quite happy things are slowing down a little. It's not like production of new armies has come to a grinding halt, they still produce several each year. But there's no reason they should be constantly upgrading and changing without any chance for us to catch our breath. I like to finish an army before it's outdated.

It makes me feel all fuzzy to see LotR defended by so many. Maybe the GW community is finally starting to accept the new member of the family.


I'm not bashing LotR, but I had to set the record straight that LotR is a better universe in itself, but for wargaming, warhammer is better.

For fantasy wargaming, yes, but LotR is at heart an historical wargame. Tolkien's books (and Jackson's movies) are to the LotR game what the history of WWII is to Flames of War. It's about recreating events rather than making your own. And in that regard, LotR has a lot more to offer than Warhammer.

Muffin Man
06-12-2005, 08:36
Even if GW could release a complete new army every month, why would they want to do that? Who the hell would buy all that stuff? The amount of potential customers and their cash isn't infinite.


If you're talking new model lines and all, then I can see your point. But if you just mean armies then I strongly disagree. I don't think any of the WE players liked waiting 6 years for a book, and I don't think any DoW or CD players like being left in the lurch. Besides, there's no rule that a new army book mandates a new model line (except in GW's mind I guess). Having a production schedule is nice, but I think GW would benefit by focusing on missing regiments or the ones that need a resculpt (which probably also hurts sales because nobody likes ugly models!) rather than the shotgun approach they take now. It's just so inflexible, and I would imagine it being the limiting factor their release process.

WLBjork
06-12-2005, 10:03
GW do a dang fine job on their timings.

Mind you, they have a good amount of staff to work with so it's not too surprising.

It's always best to compare and contrast so lets pick another company:

Ad Astra Games is a small company with only a few products. They announced a new game for August, with the miniatures (subcontracted to Reaper) for September. Due to various problems encountered along the way, the Rulebook ended up coming out in November and the models were delivered at the end of November, and they are still working on getting sorted with the advanced orders. I'm pretty sure though that there are no more than 5 people in the company at the moment.

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-12-2005, 10:52
Besides, there's no rule that a new army book mandates a new model line (except in GW's mind I guess).


No, but I think that the current approach, with releasing a new army book and a whole new range of models at the same time, creates more hype for it, and increase sales. They did the scattered release structure for a long time actually, where you would see bits of this and that getting released, but in the end I don't think that sell as many models as the current approach.

Releasing a new book and models all at the same time I would think makes it more likely that people actually go and start the army and buy the models. If the book are out and there occasionally is some new models people are less likely to want to rush out and buy it, or start that army. You might get the ones who already own the army to buy them, but fewer new armies.

And of course, then there would be endless complaints about how GW haven't made models for this or that choice, or the order the models are remade in etc.

WLBjork
06-12-2005, 12:27
Excellent timing!

The day I post in this thread is the day my Advance Order Dwarfs turn up!

Beautiful timing there GW :p