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avatarofportent
06-02-2009, 04:43
I am playing in a tournament this weekend for fantasy. Apparently everyone is making uber power lists and I don't really have the ethics to do that or the armies to do it anyways. I had a chance to play one of my fellow tournament players tonight in a test game of 2250.

He had DE army with 2 hydras, dragon, 2 cold knight units and some other stuff. I had a balanced army of warriors of slaanesh with a hellcannon. Just an average army 2 units of warriors, chosen, flail horsemen some wizards and dogs and such.

He wiped 3/4 of my army by turn 4, i killed a unit of cold ones and wounded the hydras and dragon twice. The loss was so brutal, I am considering pulling out of the tournament cause i won't have a snow balls chance in hell with my WoC army.

What do you guys think I should do just man up and go to the tournament, or possibly use an all mounted brettonian army or maybe a massive skaven horde that I have. I did have some back luck too like hellcannon constantly failing leadership checks running to nearest enemy but never charging and my flails charged cold one knights and missed all of their attacks which helped fold my right flank. The dragon alone ate two units of warriors and flamed some chosen. I am not sure what to do.

Dokushin
06-02-2009, 05:00
Honestly, I prefer losing to winning. Can't learn from winning... don't be so worried about it. Go in there and throw down a little. Maybe you'll surprise yourself.

Bac5665
06-02-2009, 05:03
Just don't take the chosen. They aren't worth 3 points over regular warriors. That would be my biggest comment.

Also, I just wouldn't play someone with the DE list you played against. Pin the cannon on the dragon isn't fun for anyone.

I'd go the the tourney just to see how it is, and in the meantime prep my list. I like to take lists that are just below the unfunlly cheesy level. I'm not afraid of tough combos, but its the stuff that changes the game I don't like. Like dragons and other big monsters. If you want to do well with WoC, Knights are the answer. They and Maurader horsemen are sick.

And just to share, my worst lose ever was: 0 to 2850. I was playing ogres versus an all KotR Bret list. I couldn't kill a single unit, while he wiped me out completely. It was awful.

Agoz
06-02-2009, 05:04
Well, I guess it would depend on two things, have you already paid the entry fee, and would you enjoy playing, even if you get completely stomped? I'd keep playing if it won't cost you any more, but I took a zombie pirates army to a tournament so... losing doesn't really phase me all that much, maybe that means I'm biased. :)

avatarofportent
06-02-2009, 05:15
i have not paid the entry fee, but i've heard of ogre kingdoms armies with giants and the new lizard man army with the whole army as stubborn, are these uber or what?

ChaosVC
06-02-2009, 06:19
Do you still have time to squeeze out a Chaos dragon? Not sure how much that will help but maybe try using Multiple khorn marauder horseman, knights dragon orge and 2 hell cannon. If you don't have those, just take your other more cheesy armies to the tourny.

tbh, chaos warriors is quite weak in the cheesy side so unless you really really like playing with them (like me) regardless, don't take them to a tourny.(which and did and lose anyway):cries:

Urgat
06-02-2009, 06:30
Honestly, I prefer losing to winning. Can't learn from winning... don't be so worried about it. Go in there and throw down a little. Maybe you'll surprise yourself.

What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm not sure about what he could learn from such losses? To use a WAAC list?

Napoleon Blownapart
06-02-2009, 11:25
Doruskin that is what I have always thought about the topic.

untimention
06-02-2009, 11:32
GO!

OK you lost this battle, who says you will face Dark Elves?

Also you could play the same match again with a different outcome.

Chosen are good... they are marmite of chaos... love or hate them

Only thing i wouldnt take is the cannon and take some knights instead

Take some Marauders with throwing axes....

The problem you face against Dark Elves is you need to shoot a lot at them in turn 1 & 2 and well chaos dont have a chance in hell so hit them hard with knights and chariots

Gaargod
06-02-2009, 11:51
Try an all mounted chaos list. Doesn't matter how broken hydras are, if you smack them in the face with lots of frenzied flails, they're still going down.

Also beware that if you take lots of mounted units, he may ignore your non-mounted 'soft' stuff like simple warriors with extra hand weapons. But they too will butcher his main regiments. Psychological warfare is always fun, make multiple references to how your knights will run over his units and he will focus all his attention on them.

As for the dragon, hatred is your friend here. He HAS to pursue and overrun. So sacrifice a unit in order to open him up to multiple charges. Same for the hydras. If he's taking that many monsters, he's probably only got ~1000 points on his other troops and heroes, so you can afford to sacrifice some weaker units.

Dispel Power of Darkness all the time. Otherwise his mages will often end up casting all their spells every turn. If he's taking 2 wizards, which is probable with someone with this army, just try to limit his magic phase to being ineffective.

Oh, and if the tournament is running composition scores, make sure to mark him very badly. Especially if his lord on dragon has pendent of Khaleith (i.e. practically unkillable).


As for the other armies, there is no all stubborn lizardmen army (unless he's using the 100pt magic item Horn of Krygor which makes cavalry stubborn. Which, as LM cavalry is frankly overexpensive, is not worth it in any case).

Daemons will of course eat you if they go beardy beardy, but that's life.

Ogre Kingdoms are not going to be a problem for mounted chaos. Don't worry about it.

GodlessM
06-02-2009, 11:55
i have not paid the entry fee, but i've heard of ogre kingdoms armies with giants and the new lizard man army with the whole army as stubborn, are these uber or what?

These you can handle, though the Steg list will be hard to chew on. Those WAAC lists always put a downer on thing. As a fellow CHaos player, my advice to you is get rid of any Chosen/Forsaken/Shrines you have, get some more Knights (Khorne preferably) and then go into that tourney and show them whose boss.

Kerill
06-02-2009, 11:58
Why did you lose is the best question to ask.
- If they took a cheesy list, what list could you bring that would do better against it (without being cheesy yourself)
- What mistakes did you make (and even against super overpowered lists there are often things you could have done differently or mistakes you made)

A couple of more advanced ones would be:
- What was my initial battle plan (if you didn't have one you should start thinking of them)
- Did I stick to the battle plan, if so did it work? If not what battle plan would have worked better?
- Does my list have/lack internal balance? (Do all the elements support each other or offer options against possible foes)
- What did I learn?

WOC IMO doesn't have great internal balance, so you really need to build your list carefully.

Mireadur
06-02-2009, 12:15
What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm not sure about what he could learn from such losses? To use a WAAC list?

haha, good point. I think all he'd learn is to get angry at the hardassing.

EvC
06-02-2009, 12:28
If you take a beating, and the organisers are sensible enough to use Swiss pairings, you'll end up playing someone else who took a real beating in your next game, and might actually have some fun.

stompy
06-02-2009, 12:32
Sorry if this sounds like a piece of advice your mum would give, but I'd say go, don't change your army, and try your best to have a great day. Who cares if you win or lose? Just go, be a great sportsman with a balanced list, and show people what this game is about.

mweaver
06-02-2009, 12:36
Go if you think you will have fun, even if losing. And you might do pretty well.

If nothing else it will give you ideas on how to refine your army.

Arguleon-veq
06-02-2009, 12:39
Warriors are cabable of dealing with that army.

A unit of 12 Slaanesh Warriors, 2x6 with Shields and Full Command actually beats a Hydra by 2. Making it test on an 6 most of the time if the Lord is away on his Dragon.

The Hellcannon can hold for at least 2 turns against the Dragon if he charges it, just make it a prime target as he wont want it shooting at him, then smash some Knights or a Chariot into his flank. Besides which your Hellcannon and Magic should stand a shot of bringing it down. The Hellcannon should take a wound a turn off it in combat.

Ogres with Giants is NOT uber. Stubborn Lizards is not uber either.

Try the tournament and dont look for excuses, just play to the best of your ability. If you go into a game with an attitude like 'That list is so cheesy, I will never beat it!' you wont beat it.

At the end of the day just try to have fun with it win or lose.

Quetzl
06-02-2009, 12:40
Remember mate if the Tournies using the Swiss system then if you get trounced first round then you'll be playing someone next round who's done as badly as you. The second round is the one you've gotta worry about - as essentially you'll most likely be up against an equal list - round three you all most definately will.

Stick it out, I know it's harsh but only 1 person can win, everyones just gotta follow in behind in the end. At Winter War I got smashed twice and had a close loss, but had a great time as I was talking to the top guys having a laugh - couple of pints. So yeah 58th out of 60 was pretty bad, but it didn't phase me too much lol.

theunwantedbeing
06-02-2009, 12:50
Did you lose through bad dice rolling all the time?
Was he really lucky?

If not...well no point taking the crappy "balanced" list to the tournament if all your mates are entering uber lists.
It's common sense.

If you want to win, you take the list that gives you the greatest possible chance of it.
Dont be a baby and whinge when your crappy "balanced" list just gets beaten over and over by the uber lists at a tournament. You'll get no sympathy (and to be honest wont really deserve any).

GodlessM
06-02-2009, 13:03
Warriors are cabable of dealing with that army.

A unit of 12 Slaanesh Warriors, 2x6 with Shields and Full Command actually beats a Hydra by 2. Making it test on an 6 most of the time if the Lord is away on his Dragon.

The Hellcannon can hold for at least 2 turns against the Dragon if he charges it, just make it a prime target as he wont want it shooting at him, then smash some Knights or a Chariot into his flank. Besides which your Hellcannon and Magic should stand a shot of bringing it down. The Hellcannon should take a wound a turn off it in combat.

Ogres with Giants is NOT uber. Stubborn Lizards is not uber either.

Try the tournament and dont look for excuses, just play to the best of your ability. If you go into a game with an attitude like 'That list is so cheesy, I will never beat it!' you wont beat it.

At the end of the day just try to have fun with it win or lose.

Great advise here. Also, you mentioned that you were playing Slaanesh. Slaanesh magic is great against a Dragon. Titilating Delusions can keep the Dragon out of your hair as long as you like.

Cragspyder
06-02-2009, 13:04
My worst loss was when my enemy Tzeentch Hordes of Chaos (old list) flew his Daemon Prince over, turned half of my Tomb Kings Archer block into Horrors and killed my Hierophant with directed attacks in the following CC phase. Turn 1.

I did manage to kill the Daemon Prince by the end of the game, but that was the only model in the army I killed.

I think it's pretty clear... take a 'good' list instead of a 'crappy' balanced list, as theunwantedbeing put it, because balance currently doesn't win games of Warhammer (and likely never has), or take your current list and try to have a good time in the loser's bracket.

The Red Scourge
06-02-2009, 13:29
Laugh, have fun, meet other people and don't take things to seriously.

If you want to win and don't think your WoC is up to the challenge, then bring an army you believe in. Just don't bring a defeatist attitude, as then you won't do much other than complain about broken armies and attribute your losses to powercreep.

Last. If this is a 100% cheesefest tournament, and you do not like that kind of game, then don't go. Chances are that there will be other players who prefer your kind of game. Just take a look at warseer, half the community are diehard cheese heads and the other half wants a relaxed gaming environment (and half of those just feel cheated because their army isn't the flavor of the month ;) ).

Soul of Iron
06-02-2009, 13:56
I feel for the OP. My last tourney had me facing 2 Teclis armies back to back playing a Khornate list with 3 DD.

People tend to take the gloves off when it comes to those things so it's best to keep that in mind when you build your lists. Never bring a knife to a gunfight.

The Tournament holders should also pair up the power lists for the first two games to prevent "Douchebagious Ender of Hobbies" from railroading "Timid Timmy" game one.

~Douchbagious Ender of Hobbies is a quote from another Warseer~

Arguleon-veq
06-02-2009, 14:02
It isnt like the lists that have been mentioned have been really beardy anyway though.

Ogres with Giants.
Stubborn Lizards.

That really isnt bad. The Dark Elf list was a little rough but something that the OP's own army was more than capable of dealing with.

Coragus
06-02-2009, 14:02
Go to the tourney! Heck, I'm going to Adepticon with Dwarfs, I'm sure not going to set the world on fire.

I would suggest dropping the Hellcannon though. I've played against is a number of times and the only time it's ever done any real damage was the one time I foolishly charged it.

Neknoh
06-02-2009, 14:10
OP, post your list here or PM it to me, I'll give a few hints of what to shoot at with the hellcannon at least, and probably a good full rundown of the troops you have, what to change and still keep it similar to the list you want.

avatarofportent
07-02-2009, 02:19
For WoC, I play all slaanesh. The models I have access too are:

Lord/exalted on daemon mount
2x sorcers on foot
1x exalted on foot
1x wulfrik the wanderer
40 maruaders with hw/s
18 warriors with same
15 warriors with double hand weapon
10 chosen with halberd or GW
1 chariot
10 knights
1 dragon ogre shaggoth
1 hellcannon
2 spawn
10 dogs
10 marauder horsemen with flails

by the way he had no wizards, he had some damn banner that when i tried to zap his dragon with a lash of slaanesh made me miscast and hurt my own wizard. and since his dragon is a large target it charged over my unit of chosen into the flank of my 18 warriors is this legal.

I am actually looking at taking an all cav brettonian list with hippogriff dueling lord 27 KoTR 9 Grails mounted yeomen, skirmishers, 6 pegasi knights and some characters now.

fluffstalker
07-02-2009, 05:47
Thats DE Item is the Ring of Hotek, which is not overpowered by itself but in the context of his list its obviously a minmaxing tool in which you can sink all your points into heavy hitters and characters BUT not have to sink any points into scroll caddies or sorcs.

If your like a masochist and just enjoy playing for the heck of it then sure, play on, but the people in your area dont sound like enjoyable people to play.

Rule of Thumb: Seperate your tournie and fun lists. I mean really seperate them unless you happen to have a list that can somehow be both WAAC and fluffy at the same time, in which case you are going to have lots of fun.

When you go to a tournie where you know there are cheeseheads, there is no beating them without joining them. If you dont like it, then dont go. It doesnt make you weak or anything, I think its a respectable reaction to those kind of players, but dont go with a weak army.

Take the cav list to a tournie if you want to, but dont throw out your slaneesh just because they arent winning you games. Just keep the distinction between fluff and competitive.

Neknoh
07-02-2009, 11:35
25 Marauders, Lightarmour, Shield, Full Command
18 Warriors, Shield, Full Command
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, musician
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, Musician
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds

5 Knights
5 Knights
Chariot

Hellcannon
Shaggoth

Sprinkle with characters of your own liking.

Primary tasks:

1. Charge the unit with the champion carrying the Ring of Hotek
2. Eat the dragon, charging it wiht Hellcannon (charges 12") or the Shaggoth (charges 14") are both viable ways, the Hellcannon will pin it whilst the greatweapon shaggoth will probably put a dent in it. Once combat is ensued, charge it with Knights, don't have a champion in the units.

Aim knights for Black Guard, aim Warriors for Spear Elves and force Overruns by sacrificing Warhounds in charges against Coldone knights at strange angles.

Feefait
07-02-2009, 13:12
Bottom line is what do you care abut in your games. If you enjoy your army and want the challenge go play, but as mentioned and as you know, tourny's are about (generally) about power games. I'd say go. Don't chicken out because of a loss. But I would never go to a tourny planning on winning.

W0lf
07-02-2009, 15:30
im a regular tournament going and my worst placing is 3rd so far.

Ive won 5/7 ive attended for my region and i have to say; i wouldnt ever take WoC to a touny.

avatarofportent
07-02-2009, 16:01
I love my WoC army they're a really good looking army, but I think I will go with old faithful. IE my 15 year old brettonian army. lord on griffon, 2 paladins, 1 scroll caddy, 40 KotR, 6 grail knights, 3 pegasus knights, 5 mounted yeomen, 10 skirmisher bowmen, and a trebuchet.

Ill post the results of the tournament when I get home in about 8 hours. My army is going to have to smash through stuff on the first turn so if i get undead or something I am screwed. I'm not too worried about flyers this time though cause i have that lovely falconhorn of fredimun or whatever. The skirmishers are to protect my trebuchet and the pegasus knights and yeomen will guard the four lances and hippo lord

spetswalshe
07-02-2009, 16:06
Slaanesh doesn't like traitors. He does, on the other hand, like people who turn up to a tournament drunk, moaning softly with pleasure every time one of his units takes a wound.

Bonus points for wearing something made of purple leather.

zak
07-02-2009, 16:34
If you fear losing then tournments are not the place to be with a fluffy balanced list. WoC don't seem to be able to produce the sort of min/max army that is currently dominating tournaments. Good luck.

ruttman15
07-02-2009, 21:13
you could go in with head held high, smash around with your balanced list, or you could cobble together some cheddar AND KICK SOME ***. your choice, but i prefer balance.

Duke Georgal
07-02-2009, 22:11
What do you guys think I should do just man up and go to the tournament?

I have my best times at tournaments when I lose game one. That puts you into the loser bracket and everyone there has more fun.

Seriously, go and enjoy it. After a round or two you will find equally equipped players and have a blast.