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Reflex
06-02-2009, 05:06
Wow, back here again.

A bloke cracked the ****** at the gaming club on the weekend because he came up against an army of deathwing, painted as black templars. he said this is against WYSIWYG as BT's have there own dex therefore it was an illegal army.

i disagree as the army was fine, and it did not mix rules or any such thing and looked fantastic (wish i took pics) but this became a divided topic among others.


what does warseer think about this in 5th ed due to the lil box in the rulebook about WYSISYG in 5th ed.

senorcardgage
06-02-2009, 05:11
They could have been a custom chapter that follows DA rules but has a paint scheme identical to black templars. The guy is a *********.

By the way, its *too* far..

Kelpi
06-02-2009, 05:13
Seems a bit over the top.

The real question is a what wargear does a black and white paint scheme represent? If the answer is none then there shouldn't be WYSIWYG problem.

Thud
06-02-2009, 05:19
I believe my reply to the last thread nicely sums up my views.

Seriously, though, what's his deal? Are black terminators so much more difficult to play against than bone-coloured ones?

slayerofmen
06-02-2009, 05:23
i think its cool the guy is using the deathwing rules to represent another chapter it doesn't really work from a fluff standpoint but meh, i was planning on doing the same thing for a Choas wing

blackroyal
06-02-2009, 05:24
I suppose one could say this is a reason to never paint your miniatures.


That said, what pleasure can anyone get in a pickup game environment by refusing to play an army that legally adheres to a codex? I suppose that guy has never ever had any "wysiwyg" issues. If so, he either has one static army list or access to far too much money...

Reflex
06-02-2009, 05:32
By the way, its *too* far..
Noted ;)


i think its cool the guy is using the deathwing rules to represent another chapter it doesn't really work from a fluff standpoint but meh

Ive seen iron hands done in this way to and they looked brilliant. It does work for black templars, not only did they space hulk style it up against orks but they tried it during the jerulius (sp?) crusade.

well this thread is proving its point pretty clearly.

Rydmend
06-02-2009, 05:34
At that point you may as well say "well, the codex reads that you're army is space marines but all you brought are a bunch of plastic models that look like space marines."

total insanity.

slayerofmen
06-02-2009, 06:03
@reflex: i was referring more to the fact that deathwing are the only army or for that matter first company that wears only terminator armour into battle emasse not that no one else uses terminator armour for "hulking"

and do you have pics of that iron hands army

Born Again
06-02-2009, 06:13
From a rules standpoint, there's nothing wrong with it. From a purely Fluff standpoint, yeah, I can understand where he's coming from.

The Black Templars have a specific chapter organisation that is covered in their codex. There's nothing stopping him from painting them black and white if that's what he wants, and saying they're a DA successor chapter. That's fine. But when he puts BT iconography on them and plays as Deathwing, that makes about as much sense as using the BA codex and painting them as Smurfs. Ultramarines with death company? I think not.

But assuming he's not changing any rules, and all the models and wargear on them was correct, then it's just paint. Sure, he may be perverting the fluff, but it's no reason to crack the s**** over it. Lighten up a bit.

Arcadian
06-02-2009, 06:36
I'm with Zomgbbg, but I admit bias. My DA army's termies are a nice glossy black with gold highlights and such.. meant to be approx HH era, 'pre-Deathwing Wearing White.'

Now THB they are Black Reach Termies with some DA bitz and a Black Paint scheme..

As a final note..little box on the bottom right on page 77 of the DA Codex.

Occulto
06-02-2009, 06:43
@reflex: i was referring more to the fact that deathwing are the only army or for that matter first company that wears only terminator armour into battle emasse not that no one else uses terminator armour for "hulking"

Although if you do include power armoured vets, you can make a perfectly acceptable non-DA 1st company.*



*this statement should not be taken as an invitation to start a long and pointless debate about whether an army can be called Deathwing if it includes any units other than Belial, Terminators, Dreadnoughts and Landraiders.

USABOB
06-02-2009, 07:00
I think that if the models are kitted out correctly and you are using one set of rules paint colour doesn't matter.

I run a Deathwing army painted in blue, so far no one I have played against complained that they aren't "Deathwing", if the event ever arises my fluff explanation is that they are fighting as a codex chapter it's a big battlefield and all the other stuff is fighting out of sight and I'm just focusing on the terminators fighting in the battle.:)

Khornies & milk
06-02-2009, 07:14
That bloke wouldn't like my counts-as Death Wing then, as they're all modelled as Deathwatch...paint scheme, Chapter specific S/Pads, etc.


WYSISYG mainly only applies to the weaponry and wargear, not the colour of the paint.

Lord_of_end_times
06-02-2009, 07:27
Wow that guy is just a losser. I would not even bother playing him if he said a paint job had to be WYSIWYG. The game is about having fun. Not about being an a** to your opponent. One Love

Lord-Caerolion
06-02-2009, 08:33
Well, the Deathwing list just represents a force that is entirely equipped with Terminator armour. Black Templar can and have used forces entirely in Terminator armour, so where's the problem?

precinctomega
06-02-2009, 09:38
He'd get short shrift at my club.

R.

Angelus Mortis
06-02-2009, 10:53
I'm of the mindset if you like Black Templars then play Black Templars. If you like Deathwing play Deathwing. If your getting hung up over color schemes not matching your ruleset, well, thats the issue IMHO. The BT player sounds like and ****** to me. I bet he switches rule sets and doesnt even tell his opponent till they are deployed either. Ehhh...today I'm BT....next game....Ehhhh I'm Deathwing. Now thats sad. Color them whatever you want is fine. But if your going to make them Ultras, you should play them as Ultras. The guy who pointed out the Ultras with Death Company is right on.

marv335
06-02-2009, 11:22
I'm of the mindset if you like Black Templars then play Black Templars. If you like Deathwing play Deathwing. If your getting hung up over color schemes not matching your ruleset, well, thats the issue IMHO. The BT player sounds like and ****** to me. I bet he switches rule sets and doesnt even tell his opponent till they are deployed either. Ehhh...today I'm BT....next game....Ehhhh I'm Deathwing. Now thats sad. Color them whatever you want is fine. But if your going to make them Ultras, you should play them as Ultras. The guy who pointed out the Ultras with Death Company is right on.

Alternatively, he could just want to use a BT 1st company list.
Many people do this, as it's the best way to properly represent such a list is using C: DA
One of my friends does this with Ultramarines, and I've seen several other people doing it at tournaments.
As long as the player is clear about what codex he's using everything is fine.

electricwolf
06-02-2009, 12:03
Half my deathwing are painted bone and the other half are painted black. I've come up with a "fluff" reason why half are painted black( from the planet where the "deathwing" story comes from).

Most people don't care if miniatures are painted pink with purple polka dots as long as you follow the rules you fine.

WYSIWYG is normally for weaponry and equipment. You can't saw a marine is armed with a flamer if he isn't. You can't use a guard figure as a marine. Painting does not count in WYSIWYG.

T_55
06-02-2009, 12:13
i disagree as the army was fine, and it did not mix rules or any such thing and looked fantastic (wish i took pics) but this became a divided topic among others.

:eyebrows:

Divided? As in someone else actually agreed with him?

Angelus Mortis
06-02-2009, 12:17
WYSIWYG is normally for weaponry and equipment. You can't saw a marine is armed with a flamer if he isn't. You can't use a guard figure as a marine. Painting does not count in WYSIWYG.

Thats not backed up anywhere in the rules and is solely your opinion. My opinion, is "I see Black Templars, so Black Templars should be what I get." WYSIWYG absolutely counts when it comes to paint.

Thud
06-02-2009, 12:20
Thats not backed up anywhere in the rules and is solely your opinion. My opinion, is "I see Black Templars, so Black Templars should be what I get." WYSIWYG absolutely counts when it comes to paint.

Pants! What, is it all of a sudden much more difficult to play against him because he's painted his army in a different colour scheme than what you'd expected? Can't you recognize black painted terminators? Get off it. :rolleyes:

Lord Damocles
06-02-2009, 12:20
WYSIWYG absolutely counts when it comes to paint.
What happens if someone uses Marines painted as Blood Angels as inducted troops in an Inquisition army?

SM_fanboy
06-02-2009, 12:30
I agree with most people on here, he obvioulsy had a small pennis.
At my club we work on the idea that as long as u can back it up eg. this is my army it is the ultramarines first company but im going to use the DW army list, any one get any problems?
I guarantee you a NORMAL person would be cool with it.

Khornies & milk
06-02-2009, 12:36
Thats not backed up anywhere in the rules and is solely your opinion. My opinion, is "I see Black Templars, so Black Templars should be what I get." WYSIWYG absolutely counts when it comes to paint.

Well we all have opinions, so if yours works for you...fine, same with our opinions.

However, you're in the minority....but c'est la vie!

Discord
06-02-2009, 12:40
Thats not backed up anywhere in the rules and is solely your opinion. My opinion, is "I see Black Templars, so Black Templars should be what I get." WYSIWYG absolutely counts when it comes to paint.

I agree! It's like using Vulkan or Lysander painted blue in an Ultramarines army, which the space marine codex explicitly forbids!




...oh wait.

(Note: Legal or not, I would find either of the above a bit silly, unless you've actually converted and renamed appropriate ultramarine versions of the characters.)

Angelus Mortis
06-02-2009, 12:46
However, you're in the minority....but c'est la vie!

Being in the minority does not mean your wrong. I can site some examples if you would like. Besides, were only talking on people who have posted here. If you come to my club, you would be in the minority.

But as I said, if you want to let your opponent do you over like that, well, thats your perogative. Personally, I wouldnt do somebody like that, and I would expect the same respect in return. Besides, I would feel like a slimeball trying to pull that on someone else. Hee Hee , how you like my Ultramarine death company? Hee hee. Just lame.

I mean, hell, if you really want to say screw WYSIWYG, why not use Necrons for Imperial Guard, or Tyranids for Space Marines? I mean, as long as you tell your opponent before hand its ok right? Thats totally lame.

Its one thing if you havent decided on a Chapter yet (and therefore a rule set) and you havent painted them yet, and your just testing out gameplay to see what you like before you commit. But its another to do what the OP is talking about. Its all principle.

marv335
06-02-2009, 12:56
as long as the player points out pre-game that they are just codex standard marines I wouldn't have a problem.
(only those marines least affected by the Blood Angels curse are selected to accompany the Inquisitor if you want to justify it fluff-wise)

IJW
06-02-2009, 13:00
Thats not backed up anywhere in the rules and is solely your opinion. My opinion, is "I see Black Templars, so Black Templars should be what I get." WYSIWYG absolutely counts when it comes to paint.
Actually...

WYSIWYG in terms of equipment is mentioned in every codex that I know of. WYSIWYG in terms of paint schemes, on the other hand, is not. The UK GT used to have a ruling that Chapter-specific paint schemes meant that you had to use that Chapter's rules (if there were any), but I'm glad to say that that clause has gone the way of the dodo.

I can't really see the problem, myself - how else would you represent a Terminator strike force than using the Deathwing rules? :confused:

Khornies & milk
06-02-2009, 13:00
Being in the minority does not mean your wrong. I can site some examples if you would like. Besides, were only talking on people who have posted here. If you come to my club, you would be in the minority.

But as I said, if you want to let your opponent do you over like that, well, thats your perogative. Personally, I wouldnt do somebody like that, and I would expect the same respect in return. Besides, I would feel like a slimeball trying to pull that on someone else. Hee Hee , how you like my Ultramarine death company? Hee hee. Just lame.

I mean, hell, if you really want to say screw WYSIWYG, why not use Necrons for Imperial Guard, or Tyranids for Space Marines? I mean, as long as you tell your opponent before hand its ok right? Thats totally lame.

Its one thing if you havent decided on a Chapter yet (and therefore a rule set) and you havent painted them yet, and your just testing out gameplay to see what you like before you commit. But its another to do what the OP is talking about. Its all principle.

I can't see where I said you're wrong, just in the minority, and some (most) of your examples are waaaaaay over the top.

In the end issues like this only matter if you, me, or some other guy faces them across the table, and they're dealt with at that point. Me, I could care less because I love seeing that someone has put some creative effort into making his force a 'one off'.

Ixquic
06-02-2009, 13:02
as long as the player points out pre-game that they are just codex standard marines I wouldn't have a problem.
(only those marines least affected by the Blood Angels curse are selected to accompany the Inquisitor if you want to justify it fluff-wise)

Pretty much. If turn 3 suddenly the blue Terminators are fearless there's a problem but otherwise it couldn't possibly be that big of a deal unless you are super anal. Of course if it's more than just a paint job and I have to have notes on what your stuff represents then I could understand complaints.

I don't really understand what the point of painting up marines as Black Templars and then using Dark Angel rules though. If you really like black why not just make up some successor Dark Angel chapter or something?

WildWeasel
06-02-2009, 13:36
I don't really understand what the point of painting up marines as Black Templars and then using Dark Angel rules though. If you really like black why not just make up some successor Dark Angel chapter or something?

Because one likes the look and background and symbology of the Black Templars, but also likes the idea of fielding all Termies. Right now, Deathwing is the only list that allows that. And while the Templars may not be known for all Termie actions, part of the core concept of the Astrates is their flexibility. Undoubtedly, in their 10,000 years of actions, there's been times when the Templars have been in a situation where a strike force of 1st Company brothers in Tactical Dreadnought armor has been the answer.

Laser guided fanatic
06-02-2009, 13:50
Paint never counts towards WYSIWYG. But to prove it you have to give the ******** some of his own stuff. No codex it desgined for just one paint scheme, sure if you play BA, BT and DA you might want to paint your armies in those colours but i'm 66% sure that all those codexes say (dont have the BA one) that you can use the codex to represent a offspring chapter of BA, BT or DA, which you can invent. Now if you invent this chapter you can invent the paint scheme meaning it can be the same to any other chapter. Now if you want to play Ultramarines Deathwing without calling them Ultramarines 2 Deathwing then the solution is to just not play with a bunch of masochistic bogrots.

Nym
06-02-2009, 14:13
If WYSIWYG includes Paint scheme, then what about "count as" ? It's pretty clear that GW now supports "count as" armies, and I've seen Rebel Gretchins using the Imperial Guard codex or Adeptus Mechanicus Armies using the Space Marine codex.

These armies are "legal" these days, even in Tournaments. So why would a Black Templar first company played with the Dark Angel be "un-WYSIWYG" ? The Black Templars do indeed have a First Company, so why do some people behave like fluff-nazis ? It's a simple paint scheme, some people play a WHOLE army from models to paint scheme with a different codex.

And what if a Dark Angel wants to play with the Ultramar... hmm Space Marine Codex ?

Johnnyfrej
06-02-2009, 14:20
***********************

In my opinion I dislike the whole painted X but plays as Y armies. I view it the same as those people who spam Special Characters but convert/paint them differently and "count" them as someone else (yet conveniently keeping their special rules :eyebrows:). I would still play against them but I would notify them of my feelings for this playstyle.



So by your logic if i played catachans with the IG codex i would be a jerk.

Were they ACTUALLY Catachans or just a Guard army that used Catachan-like equipment? Personally I have a small Catachan army but don't use jungle fighting. I play them as a Light Infantry Regiment.

Sceleris
06-02-2009, 14:28
Provided it was made clear pre-game that he was using DW rules then I wouldn't have a problem.

While I can agree to an extent with AM's comments about the fluff side of it (and had the termies been painted up in a generic scheme, rather than as BT, it seems this would not have been an issue) that only works if everyone in your regular gaming group plays all to the same strict fluff/wysiwyg standards.

All well and good if that is the case (and all credit to them for it in a way as it will remove some of the "cheese"/WAAC list which don't really fit with fluff) but there should be enough flexibility in the rules "count as" armies.

OK the BT are generally a crusading type army, often using large squads of marines and neophytes, but on occasions they might need a termie heavy force, DS'd into an area, and the current rules don't really allow that, whereas the DW set does.

eek107
06-02-2009, 14:29
I'm of the opinion that as long as I can tell what equipment a model has (and, more importantly, my opponent can as well), I don't care what colour or background it has.

I wonder, how would he, or indeed anyone else of similar opinion, feel about facing the same army unpainted? (leaving aside personal opinions on the painted/unpainted issue) Assume it's a pick-up game, and there's been no discussion of army background or such... just wandering into a store and being offered a game against that army.

Todosi
06-02-2009, 14:32
As long as your opponent knows what ruleset you are using, there is nothing that says how you must paint your models. If your opponent persists, ask him/her to show you the rule in the codex or BRB that specifies how models must be painted in order to play. Or ask him to remove any unpainted models as they are clearly not WYSIWYG.

Laser guided fanatic
06-02-2009, 14:32
Tbh I don't know what the big deal with fluff and the game is. If i go and play COD4 online i don't get hammered because i'm USMC and i'm using an AK-47, a gun that they wouldn't use, so why should someone get hammered when you are doing the same thing but on a tabletop?

HsojVvad
06-02-2009, 14:59
Well it does say in the DA codex that you can have your own paint scheme, it dosn't have to be bone white. So again how is he saying it's not WYSIWYG? Even the codex says so it dosn't have to be.

Angelus Mortis
06-02-2009, 15:08
Well it does say in the DA codex that you can have your own paint scheme, it dosn't have to be bone white. So again how is he saying it's not WYSIWYG? Even the codex says so it dosn't have to be.

Thats my enitre point. Black Templars IS NOT your own scheme, its the Black Templar scheme.

Laser guided fanatic
06-02-2009, 15:12
Thats my enitre point. Black Templars IS NOT your own scheme, its the Black Templar scheme.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Black Templars are fictional so their colour scheme is GW's if they bothered to copyright it. And also nowhere does it clearly define the BT colour scheme there are variations of it everywhere so i can pick any one of these and use them as DW because only one can be the real BT colour scheme.

Hellfury
06-02-2009, 15:14
Wow, back here again.

A bloke cracked the s**ts at the gaming club on the weekend because he came up against an army of deathwing, painted as black templars. he said this is against WYSIWYG as BT's have there own dex therefore it was an illegal army.

i disagree as the army was fine, and it did not mix rules or any such thing and looked fantastic (wish i took pics) but this became a divided topic among others.


what does warseer think about this in 5th ed due to the lil box in the rulebook about WYSISYG in 5th ed.

If an army is completely represented coherently with how its units are armed, it is WYSIWYG.

To discount an army based on its color scheme is pure baloney.

A color scheme does not an army nor its rules make.

[edit]
And as said earlier in this thread, the little box on the bottom right of page 77 of the DA codex should clear up any concerns about alternate color schemes being supported by actual rules.

For those of you who do not have access to that codex and would like a summary of what it says, I will oblige with a paraphrase:

"You can paint your models however you damned well like because they are your dollies and if nobody likes it, they can stuff it where the sun most definitely does not shine"

.

Logarithm Udgaur
06-02-2009, 15:19
Way over the top in my opinion. I seem to remember the WYSIWYG rules specifically prohibiting this type of thing (something about no Blood Angels painted as Ultramarines).

If the fellow informed his opponent of what they where actually facing, I would say that it is up to the opponent to allow it or not. It may just be paint, but how would people feel if I plopped down a bunch IG and said they where Orks? After all, it is only models.

yabbadabba
06-02-2009, 15:19
In my opinion I dislike the whole painted X but plays as Y armies. I view it the same as those people who spam Special Characters but convert/paint them differently and "count" them as someone else (yet conveniently keeping their special rules :eyebrows:). I would still play against them but I would notify them of my feelings for this playstyle.

If you take a DA special character, use it in a SW army and not change the rules then that is cheating. Using the Belial model, in a DW army but calling them all "Jamfish Marines" and painting them pink is perfectly allowable and fine.

As a note WYSIWYG counts for nothing. It doesn't affect gameplay, results, points or anything. It might remind you of how poor your memory is but thats it. These are a person's models and their property. Nothing GW says or does can change that. Conversions of models, rules and colour schemes are at the heart of this hobby. As long as you are polite and helpful when playing someone, then you have free reign to do as you wish.

Angelus Mortis
06-02-2009, 15:19
Ok, then say your playing a 2 vs 2 or perhaps a game of Apoc. Now you got you with your DW painted BT and your buddy with his BT painted BT. Both are painted pretty much the same but are using totally different rule sets. Don't you think thats going to be a bit confusing? Oh but wait, GW has come up with a rule for just such a situation. They call it WYSIWYG.

Laser guided fanatic
06-02-2009, 15:22
Ok, then say your playing a 2 vs 2 or perhaps a game of Apoc. Now you got you with your DW painted BT and your buddy with his BT painted BT. Both are painted pretty much the same but are using totally different rule sets. Don't you think thats going to be a bit confusing? Oh but wait, GW has come up with a rule for just such a situation. They call it WYSIWYG.

Yes confusing, because that is a) a feasible situation and b) both armies will have been painted by the same person and so look exactly the same. If you can't distinguish between 2 different armies that are painted in the same scheme then that is pretty poor.

yabbadabba
06-02-2009, 15:24
Ok, then say your playing a 2 vs 2 or perhaps a game of Apoc. Now you got you with your DW painted BT and your buddy with his BT painted BT. Both are painted pretty much the same but are using totally different rule sets. Don't you think thats going to be a bit confusing? Oh but wait, GW has come up with a rule for just such a situation. They call it WYSIWYG.

Its not a rule. Its a playing aid only. And Tescos have also come up with a playing aid to help such an situation - it's called Blu-Tac.

IJW
06-02-2009, 15:25
I seem to remember the WYSIWYG rules specifically prohibiting this type of thing (something about no Blood Angels painted as Ultramarines).
Nope. Like I mentioned earlier, something of the sort used to be in the UK GT rulespack, but it isn't there any more - and that's the closest GW have ever got to saying that models have to be a specific colour to go with a specific set of rules. Other than Orky Red Paint Jobs, obviously. ;)

Hellfury
06-02-2009, 15:27
Ok, then say your playing a 2 vs 2 or perhaps a game of Apoc. Now you got you with your DW painted BT and your buddy with his BT painted BT. Both are painted pretty much the same but are using totally different rule sets. Don't you think thats going to be a bit confusing? Oh but wait, GW has come up with a rule for just such a situation. They call it WYSIWYG.

Here is a rule that supports painting your DA any way you feel like it.

Read page 77 of the dark angels codex then come back when you have had a healthy serving of humble pie.

Laser guided fanatic
06-02-2009, 15:31
Here is a rule that supports painting your DA any way you feel like it.

Read page 77 of the dark angels codex then come back when you have had a healthy serving of humble pie.

AM's point is that pg77 says you can paint them in any scheme you make up/ or any DA succesor scheme. But he is being a bit beardy and saying because you cant make up the BT scheme you cant use it to represent DW.

Logarithm Udgaur
06-02-2009, 15:35
My Orks believe "Blue 1s go fasta!," so I can paint my Ork trucks blue and still get the extra 1" right? This is still fitting with the background (Ork tech works because they believe it does), and by my interpretation of the rules for "Red Paint Job" is perfectly fine.

Hellfury
06-02-2009, 15:38
AM's point is that pg77 says you can paint them in any scheme you make up/ or any DA succesor scheme. But he is being a bit beardy and saying because you cant make up the BT scheme you cant use it to represent DW.

And my point is that they are your models, you can paint them anyway you like and use any rules you like as long they are clearly representing what equipment they carry.

A black army with maltese crosses, while commonly associated with black templars, does not make a black templar army.

For instance, I have seen a lot of black temlar armies that are grey and do not have any maltese crosses. Does that not make them a black templar army?

No, because a colorscheme is irrelevant to what rules a person uses to represent their army and insisting that a person paint their army in any specific way whatsoever or insisting that an army that is painted a specific way is not the army you are playing makes you, bottomline, TFG.

t-tauri
06-02-2009, 15:47
Please post without using offensive language and insults. A number of posts removed and posters warned. Please check out the posting guidelines.

If it's language you wouldn't use in polite company it's going to break the posting guidelines. We have a swear filter to eliminate many words which only have offensive meanings. Avoiding that filter by starring out a few of the letters so the word is still readable is the same offence as typing the word.

Please express opinions without using insults or offensive language.

t-tauri

The Warseer Inquisition

HsojVvad
06-02-2009, 16:35
Way over the top in my opinion. I seem to remember the WYSIWYG rules specifically prohibiting this type of thing (something about no Blood Angels painted as Ultramarines).

If the fellow informed his opponent of what they where actually facing, I would say that it is up to the opponent to allow it or not. It may just be paint, but how would people feel if I plopped down a bunch IG and said they where Orks? After all, it is only models.

That is perfectly fine. The WYSIWYG is for weapons load outs and what not. If everything is consitent, then fine it is perfectly acceptable. Well for me at least. Just make shure if you "count as" are the same. The IG with a bolter is acting like a flammer then all IG with blolters are flammers. Unless marked noticably otherwise, I see no problem with that at all.


My Orks believe "Blue 1s go fasta!," so I can paint my Ork trucks blue and still get the extra 1" right? This is still fitting with the background (Ork tech works because they believe it does), and by my interpretation of the rules for "Red Paint Job" is perfectly fine.

Nothing wrong with that, as long as you are paying the proper points cost. I don't like the colour red so much myself so I can't see why it has to be just red. Blue is fine, just make shure you are paying the points costs. Anyone else who would argue about that, better make shure everything on his mini's are WYSIWYG and that would include phychic powers, grenades, and everything else he intends to use as well.

Nym
06-02-2009, 16:51
My Orks believe "Blue 1s go fasta!," so I can paint my Ork trucks blue and still get the extra 1" right? This is still fitting with the background (Ork tech works because they believe it does), and by my interpretation of the rules for "Red Paint Job" is perfectly fine.

I've seen Attack Grotz counting as Attack Squigs, and "Improved engines" counting as Red Paint Job, and no one ever complained, as long as it was stated beforehand. Blue ones going faster wouldn't bother me. Actually no one I've ever played with would bother.

Hicks
06-02-2009, 16:58
That was just plain stupid, but there are people who want to win so much that they will cheat, find excuses not to play you, or call you a cheater and proclame themselves the winner for bogus reasons (it's even worse when you're in a shop where a bunch of friends behave like that).

I hope this guy never finds an opponent again.

Reminds me of the time where I "lost" before the game started because my tyrant wasn't the newest edition.

Reinholt
06-02-2009, 17:00
My thoughts:

1 - From a technical perspective, as long as he's using the appropriate DW rules (not trying to create some incomprehensible hodge-podge of DW + BT rules designed to seize on the advantages of each) and all of his models have correct and legal equipment, I don't see a problem from a WYSIWYG perspective. In that case, it's a perfectly legal army list by all of the technical guidelines of the game.

2 - If the guy is a cheese-monger who consistently tries to play his Black Templars to "count as" other chapters in order to leverage special rules, screw with his opponents, or the like and you never quite know what he's up to, I can see why you would object (and object strongly) to this kind of nonsense and insist he play with the BT codex or not play at all.

3 - If that's not the case, and it's just someone who wanted a BT first company themed army, or something similar, then he'd be fine by me. The whole point of the hobby (and things like WYSIWYG) is to allow players immense flexibility in model design, paint scheme, theme, and the like while also allowing your opponent to know what the hell is going on. Otherwise, as someone intimated to above, you don't really need the models at all...


So in conclusion, not enough information. It really depends on the players. Is one guy just being an obstinate dickwad because someone else had a cool idea? Then <deleted by the Inquisition> him. However, is one guy causing trouble by constantly changing army lists, subverting rules, and not playing fair while always using the same terribly painted models to represent whatever? Then <deleted by the Inquisition> him instead.

I'd need to know more about the people involved - that's usually what it comes down to, in the end.

A.S.modai
06-02-2009, 17:03
Last time I got involved in a thread like this, I almost got banned.

While I do not dispute it's legality by raw and common decency, as a deathwing/da player I still think it's pretty ****. But that's just me. I tend to like the fluff aspect of this game and I find it distasteful to deviate from said fluff. This reminds me of the guy who painted all his Eldar to look like Spiderman.

If the BLACK TEMPLARS fielded a formation of all termies, it would be in their ruleset. I think now that the new marine codex is out, the DA's really don't have anything unique and awesome except the DW or ravenwing list. My personal whining is that, this sort of takes away from that. I'd be a little meh if I showed up with my awesomely painted DW and faced some guy with his DW/BT's considering the BT's do have fluff and its cool.

The black templars are cool. The Deathwing are cool. Mixing the paint schemes is non conformity which I can appreciate. Whoever this dude is, he just seems to really love the BT icons and colors, but thinks he can win with a DW force. If you love the BT's so much try playing with their codex. Love everything about them, not ala carte.

MrBigMr
06-02-2009, 17:06
*in before lock*

Wow. Just... Wow.

Ok, Mortis, let me get this straight, if I paint my Tigurius green with Salamander symbols, it's a no-no, because Tigurius is an Ultramarine and I should use him as such, because my opponent isn't getting what he sees? Or when I put tentacles and spiky bits along with Chaos symbols on my Marines, it's a no-no because my opponent isn't getting what he sees?

maelstrom66669
06-02-2009, 17:06
It would be fine with me to play against one type of marines going as a group that isnt their actual paint scheme, as long as they stuck with the same rules the whole time. I used to play space marines, but painted as black templar, because I didnt even realize the black templar were something else, I just looked at all the paint schemes in the book, and thought that one was coolest.....

Johnnyfrej
06-02-2009, 17:11
If you take a DA special character, use it in a SW army and not change the rules then that is cheating. Using the Belial model, in a DW army but calling them all "Jamfish Marines" and painting them pink is perfectly allowable and fine.

You missunderstand. What I said is I hate it when people use SC (take Belial), use them as their rules say, but paint them differently and "count as" something else.

Take this guy who was playing "Deathwing" BT. Was he using Belial or any other Dark Angel characters? If he was then his army wouldn't be BT now would it? It would be a Dark Angels army painted like Black Templars.

It's like this time I fought a Blood Angel army with Mephiston and that Jumppack Apothicary only his entire army (including the characters) were painted green and black with Salamanders banners and icons. It's just an ugly thing to do (second to powergaming).

Orktavius
06-02-2009, 17:24
Aye I wouldn't be bothered much by it either, however as an argument for why using a deathwing army painted up in BT colors is wrong it's pathetic. Want to know why? There's a simple reason, the Rules for red paint job ACTUALLY SAY THE PAINT NEEDS TO BE RED. There's nothing in the DA codex that says your models have to be painted in a DA pattern, alternatively there's nothing in the BT codex that says that if you paint your models like BT you automatically have to use BT rules. It's not like the guy is using both codex's at once, it's a damn paint scheme. All the guy has to say is "hey, I'm using the Dark angels codex" and we're good to go, hell I don't even care if someone uses a smurf paint scheme for BA as long as they tell me I'm playing BA it's perfectly fine. To the other dumb argument I've seen used regarding using actual models as "counts as" sure, go ahead as long as it makes sense. I mean no one in their right mind is going to allow someone to use standard imperial guard models as orks, but if someone does some cool conversion work I have no issue with someone using Orks as guard, or orks as space marines. Just make damn sure you do the conversion work to make it count.

*edit* so in the time it took me to post there were like 6 replies....nice

Treadhead_1st
06-02-2009, 17:28
Take this guy who was playing "Deathwing" BT. Was he using Belial or any other Dark Angel characters? If he was then his army wouldn't be BT now would it? It would be a Dark Angels army painted like Black Templars.

Except the Dark Angels codex explicitly permits such an act, just like the new Codex: Space Marines does with it's SCs.

What;s wrong with using one codex to represent a similar force? If I wanted to play the Firedrakes - Salamanders 1st Company who equal, if not beat, the Dark Angels in terms of Terminator Suits, and are regularly deployed as a whole Company; why can I not use the Deathwing rules (and a counts-as Belial, as you'd have to) to be able to play this on the table? 3x Squads isn't enough - all you can take with the new codex, and they're not Troops, so I'd have to include other, non-Firedrake elements in the army too (defeating the point of it).

Why is that a problem? The models would be armed correctly, you'd be informed I was using the Dethwing rules, and it would be pretty darn obvious - no other army can feature so many Terminators/Dreadnoughts/Land Raiders in one viable army.

This guy with the BT, it sounds like all the models are Terminators - he didn't sub PA guys in for Termies, but bought and painted the correct models with the correct equipment (correct me if I'm wrong). Anyone who refused to play that would be, in my opinion, an elitist <deleted> and worse than a WAAC power gamer (at least they have a valid reason for being annoying - to win). Because they are not appreciating the effort someone put into the hobby (what if they were all GD-standard and had background for every unit?) all because of an insistence that green marines (in this case black) couldn't be used with a rules set for a different shade of green (ok, white) marines.

It is not at all like using Guardsmen to represent Tyranids (ok, bad example with Genestealer cults etc) - it's using a rules set that suits you combined with a background that suits you.

I could play Elysians or Catachans with my Guard codex - all 3 have their own separate rules, so surely, by your standards, I'd *have* to play with the IA books because otherwise I am commiting some sort of cardinal sin, as nowhere in 10,000 years of Imperial history in a galaxy-spanning empire has any formation *remotely* similar to one represented by Colour Shade A's rules been used by Colour Shade B (note: sarcasm).


Ok, this post is over the top, but hyperbole is the best way to put across an argument that covers all the bases in a topic like this.

Personally, I would never refuse a game if the models were at least converted/the right models (counts-as ok in pick-up games, but eventually I'd like to see purchases/conversions) - ie, how would someone use Lost and the Damned without using Counts As/another armies rules-set, since they no longer have a ruleset?

Toe Cutter
06-02-2009, 17:32
Meh. Yet another communication issue. Have the two players talk to eachother in a civilised manner before hand and discuss the matter. If at the end of the discussion they can play a game then sweet. If at the end of the discussion they have decided not to play the game then thats also fine but hopefully they'll each have an insight into a different point of view on the game.

I'm somewhere in the middle on this issue. I think its an odd thing to do but I can't say its a game breaker. Depends on the person really. I've played against people that have had very strictly adhered to WYSIWYG armies and its been the most tedious/frustrating/boring/unpleasant way to spend a couple of hours of my free time. On the other hand I've had great games that have been most entertaining when large portions of my opponents armies have been counts as.

Johnnyfrej
06-02-2009, 17:34
Except the Dark Angels codex explicitly permits such an act, just like the new Codex: Space Marines does with it's SCs.

So the codex Dark Angels says you can take Belial, use the model as the actual Belial, however you can paint him as a BT and call him Mr. BT 1st Company Captian (I didn't know BT had a 1st Company) and that is perfectly legal?

Preemptive Strike: If it is allowed I think that is just as bad as Powergaming as you are throwing any semblance of fluff out the window.

Captain Brown
06-02-2009, 17:37
While the swearing and name calling slowed down (these have been deleted for those new on the scene) the tone is continuing to go down hill as both camps prepare more veiled insults and suggestions of mental inadequacies...

Thread closed for good this time.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition