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darkin
04-12-2005, 00:55
I am new to the warhammer game. This will be my first army, I don't have any models yet but will be gathering my force over the next couple of months.
I'm going for a fast army with lots of magic.

What do you think of this tzeentch 2000pt list?

1 mortal lord, biting blade shield great weapon riding disc, mark of tzeentch

3 exalted champions, mark of tzeentch, shield, beserker swords, all on discs all have great weapons

2 units of 4 chaos knights, each unit with mark of tzeentch

5 chaos marauders, swords+shields

11 horrors+4 flamers

2 firewyrms of tzeentch

der_lex
04-12-2005, 01:43
Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are a lot of things wrong with this list.

First of all, it's illegal. You can't take any magic item other than Power Stones/Dispel Scrolls more than once, so you can't kit all your exalteds out with beserker swords. There's also no point in combining the biting blade and the greatsword, since they are two separate weapons, and their bonuses don't stack. Also, 5 marauders is too few to form a unit (not to mention rather silly)

Secondly, against any kind of shooty army, your list probably won't see the second turn of play. You have very few units, mostly because you've stuck too many points in characters (even though tzeentch tends to be character-heavy, there is such a thing as too much), and none of them, except for maybe the knights, will be able to stand against concentrated missile fire or war machines.

To keep myself from rambling incoherently, I'll try to give you useful advice by looking at your units and telling you what you could improve.

Characters:
In 2000 points, a lord and three exalted is overkill. period. It leaves you with very few points to buy other units, and trust me, you'll feel stupid when you field a 25 model amry against a gibbering 250+ model Skaven horde with ratling guns. Still, since you want to go heavy on spellcasting, I'd definitely take the Lord. To make him an effective caster, best thing is to give him the (boring?) Staff of change/golden eye combo. The staff vastly improves your spellcasting and helps you avoid miscasts, and the Eye keeps your pretty 500 point lord from getting blasted to bits.
After that, I'd personally take an exalted and an aspiring champ, tops.
The reason why I pick an exalted is that I do hand him a berserker sword, but I put him in a chariot instead. Berserker blade+chariot impact hits+4 exalted attacks is usually enough to put in a big hit on opposing units. Also, it's not as bad then if you get hit in the flank when your chariot gets stuck in combat, since it'll give you lots of extra attacks...and if your exalted happens to get orange fire as a spell, they'll usually all hit, leading to wholesale slaughter. Also, the chariot has a mark, giving you a cheap extra power die.

I always take an aspiring since I feel that a battle standard is worth the points. Other might disagree though.


Core, special and rare units:
Bluntly put, you lack models. Kick out a knight unit and the horrors/flamers.(the horrors are a cool support unit, but if they get in combat they usually get mushed. With as few models as your list has, they WILL get in combat) Personally I'd use the points to get a unit of 11 Chaos warriors (with the aspiring champ filling the 12 slot to get the rabk bonus), to crank the Marauder unit up to 20 (these guys need numbers to be effective) and to get a Warhound and a Screamer unit. Warhounds are excellent shields for your knights, and if they don't get shot to bits make nice flankers. Add some nice, fast screamers (the best unit Tzeentch has to offer, IMO) for a three-pronged charge, and you can hit a single unit really hard.
Firewyrms are more useful than normal spawn, although you'll probably only get one breath in before you get stuck in combat. Against shooty armies, don't take these, since they'll get shot to bits before they ever see combat...the lack of an armour save will see to that.

Long story short, your list simply needs bulking out...daemonic lists can get away with having this few models, but mortal lists get ripped to bits...

darkin
04-12-2005, 03:48
Thanks. I first I thought it wasn't bad...But now I know how much of a newb I am. By the way the 5 marauders- I made a mistake. They are actually horsemen.

Without the 2 extra beserker sword that I now know are illegal! What if I used the points to some hounds or another unit of marauder horsemen?

I really like the idea of beefy characters, and a ruthlessly fast attack.

I was hoping the army should be fast enough to not get hit too much by war machines. With the discs movement and the characters to cream the opposition in the magic phase.

archysucks_Hail_Crom
04-12-2005, 04:14
What do you think of this tzeentch 2000pt list?
++:D needs work.:D

1 mortal lord, biting blade shield great weapon riding disc, mark of tzeentch
++golden eye and staff of change will be the best combo and its as close to cheating as you can get. 401pts. drop the shield keep the GW.,disk.
496
Lord of Tzeentch
disc, GW
staff & eye

3 exalted champions, mark of tzeentch, shield, beserker swords, all on discs all have great weapons
++OK this is ALOT of points in Lords&heroes just take 2 exalteds and you will still get called a power gamer but you need some points in troops.
269pts
Exalted of Tzeentch
disc. power familiar
Great Weapon

244pts
Exalted of Tzeentch
disc. 1x dispel scroll
Great Weapon
++ Now we've spent a total of 1009 pts in Lords&heroes that's pretty ludicrous but hey I'm tryin' to keep it based off of your original.


2 units of 4 chaos knights, each unit with mark of tzeentch
++ These are gonna do nill in combat my friend so let's beef them to 5 full commands and some support.
235 pts.
5xknights of tzeentch
full cmnd

235 pts.
5xknights of tzeentch
full cmnd

++now these are two units that can stand up let's just give 'em some support.

5 chaos marauders, swords+shields

++two units of marauder horsemen are nice for back up basically charge them into the flank of whatever unit your knights are knee deep in. it takes some time to develop the tactic but once mastered it hurts.

81 pts.
5x marauder horsemen
musc. flails

81 pts.
5x marauder horsemen
musc. flails

11 horrors+4 flamers

2 firewyrms of tzeentch
these SUCKalot.

++ trust me my first army had 4 firewyrms they suck with much greatness and little glory.

++with the left over points I say go with 1 unit of furies to pick out the warmachines.
105 pts.
7x furies

++then 3 beast chariots for some slow moving punch.
255
3x tuskgor chariots

++that's 992 points in core and special that might well hold up.

Total=2001(one point is *******' legal anywhere don't worry about it)
PD=13:wtf:
DD=7+1 Dscroll


the warmachine and anything over strength 7 is gonna be critical to kill off. Don't get bogged in with your knights slam his units with the marauders and knights first off if possible be sure not to get charged in the flank once they are in combat. In other words take each unit one at a time and you should be fine.
Put the furies on warmachine detail staight away.
Use the chariots in tandem double charging when possible as that is the best possible scenario for you.

darkin
04-12-2005, 05:11
I agree, ws 3 for spawn looks doubtful.
I only have the chaos army book-not beasts of. I don't really want to get another army book when the money could be put into modles or paint etc.

archysucks_Hail_Crom
04-12-2005, 07:09
if thats the case then get 2 mortal chariots of Tzeentch and with teh 15 points dup your dispel scroll and take AoD biting blade and enchanted shield.

Neknoh
04-12-2005, 07:45
Well.... as has been said, your Lord has rather pointless equipment, you've dumped far to much points into your heroes and your army is overall too small, but fear not, help is on its way.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=934 This is a very good thing in order to get you more understanding on how Chaos and the different powers/units play.

Also, to go to your list.

First of all, 10 levels of magic only ensures a miscast, and with all of those points in characters, you do NOT want a miscast.

So, let's cut down on the characters and turn your currently useless (yes he is, he MUST use the Biting Blade untill it gets destroyed, and the Biting Blade is considered one of THE most useless magic weapons out there)
So, let's drop the Biting Blade, and, seeing as he is on a Disc, the Golden Eye of Tzeentch is a must, now, add in a Hallberd or a Greatweapon (personally, I prefer Hallberds, though he can't bust chariots with it, so it's up to you) in order for him to be able to quickly fly over enemy lines and blast them whilst then taking out warmachines, or perhaps assist your units or take out Fast Cavalry.

And your three Exalteds... overkill, faar to big an overkill.

I would probably go for two Exalted Champions, one with the Armour of Damnation (abrieviated AoD) and a Greatweapon to hang out with your Marauders, then, the secon one, either in a Disc for air support, or in a Chariot for heavy ground support, in either case, give him the Berserker Sword and the Enchanted Shield.

This will of course be costly, but still, cheaper than your choice of characters and a lot more useful.


Now, as for the Core of your army, Knights isn't really a Tzeentch generals best friend, they have the weakest psychology of all Chaos Knights, and, you do NOT want them running from Zombies or perhaps scared away from loosing one to shooting.
So, I say, dump one unit and bump the other to five, give them Full Command and Warbanner in order to make their abillities to succeed in combat even greater, and give them that oh so important way to rally.

Now, you also do want a nice and strong block of infantry, Marauders are ideal for this, they will also turn into your opponents pet-peeve when it comes to targeting stuff with varius artillery such as Stone Throwers and Mortars, so, make 'em 'ard and make 'em big!
This is one of your main blocks, a group of 20 Marauders with Full Command, Lightarmour and Shields will stand up to a lot of shooting and actually endure a hit without larger problems, though personally, I do believe groups of 25 with both Greatweapons, Lightarmour and Shields to work best, but it's all about personal taste.
(Good tip for Marauders in units of 20, buy one box and bitz-order one sprew of em, that way, you don't have to get another box and have 12 of em lying arround... unless you plan to use a unit of 12 with Flails that is)

Now, we have 2 Core units, we still need at least one more, so, let's see...
I would deffinately add another block of infantry, be it 16 Wariors of Tzeentch with Full Command, Hallberds and Shields or another block of at least 20 well armoured Marauders is up to you, the Wariors will endure much more and adds another Power Dice to your pool, however, the Marauders costs less than half of the points and can also boast with a massive static combat-res.

For the fourth Core, I would deffinately add a unit of Marauder Horsemen, this would give you something to defend your flanks with and also to work your enemies with. They also work VERY nice in combined charges with Chaos Knights.
Just don't forget to give them Flails and a Musician, nothing more

Now, we have heavy support in form of Knights and a Champion in a Chariot... but is that really enough? Let's throw in another Chariot of Tzeentch, now, your Champion can either go Tag-Team with it and plow into units, or they can hang back with your infantry and generate power Dice.

That was the core, now, for Special Choices, I would DEFFINATELY add a unit of about 5 Screamers, sure, 165 points might seem a lot, but for what they do... it isn't.
(tactica for Screamers can be found in the link seen at the start of this post)

Also, a group of Furies would be nice as well, this would give you two units to hunt down Warmachines, Scouts and Lone Characters with, it would also give you the abillity to marchblock very nicely, and, if needed, the Screamers can shield your Knights and the Furies can be lined up to cover most of your infantry base.

And, since you do not want the BoC book, I can't really think of anything else to add, if you've got the points, a second Core Chariot or another unit of marauders/Marauder Horsemen would be nice.

darkin
05-12-2005, 04:03
What you have said Neknoh sounds like a pretty kick ass army but will the foot troops change the force into not as fast an army as I would like?

The force of archysucks_Hail_Crom seems more up to speed with what I want.

If I was to use the list of archysucks_Hail_Crom what will be it's pros+cons.
This is the list which is really appealing to me at the moment.

Neknoh
05-12-2005, 04:39
Well... the army of AsHc is indeed faster, the problem for an inexperienced player might be to combo-charge enough in order to make it work, seeing as it doesn't have any rank bonuses, so the step into the world of warhammer might be large, but, it can work, it certainly works for more advanced players, and, if you can't win with it, you will learn how to win with it

darkin
05-12-2005, 05:34
Cool. I just printed off the post and will make the new look list. This looks very much like what I want. I'll just write it up and post the list soon.

As you said I may suffer from inexperience...But well I'll throw myself in the deep end and see what happens.

archysucks_Hail_Crom
05-12-2005, 06:17
Wow somebody actually *******' agreed to take advice:wtf:

well that list is full of:cheese: BUT it has some nice tactical twists taht will force you to learn.

1. Try to keep your Lord near your knights in order to bleed his leadership on them.
2. That combo charge with the knights and horsemen is crucial practice it.
3. The chariots will have to be practiced aswell because of their hamstringed movement.
4.Get the BoC book. It adds so many options to our armies it is invaluable. A beast herd is quite possibly the most versatile unit in the game.
5.Kill your enemies warmachines QUICK! S10 cannon shot into chariot=140 points in the can.
6.This army will be called cheese by everyone and will not make you any friends. As a newb you usually want to go infantry heavy in order to force yourself to learn manuevering tactics. However that combo charge is so critical in this army that you will be forced to learn or DIE!:D have fun.

darkin
05-12-2005, 21:47
496
Lord of Tzeentch
disc, GW
staff & eye

269pts
Exalted of Tzeentch
disc. power familiar
Great Weapon

Exalted of Tzeentch?

235 pts.
5xknights of tzeentch
full cmnd

235 pts.
5xknights of tzeentch
full cmnd

81 pts.
5x marauder horsemen
musc. flails

81 pts.
5x marauder horsemen
musc. flails

2 mortal chariots of Tzeentch

105 pts.
7x furies

I have problems with what you have said. With the other exalted with biting blade+ enchanted shield, disc, mark of tzeentch he is too many points. He over shoots the 2K mark. With my adding up.

darkin
06-12-2005, 02:26
This army will be called cheese by everyone

By the way what do you mean by cheese?

shadowprince
06-12-2005, 03:55
personly always get a tleast 2 tzeentch chariots thats 2 powerdice and a combined charge with your two knight units that is just sickening in power. Don't have the numbers memorized but it aerages I think seven kills against the basic rank and file. Then with putting a chacter in th chariot it now denies rank bonuses. I say if you are just starting slowly work yor way up to full calv. Get a unit of 20 maradors gives you something to fall back on. Also gives the player a lot of threatening options should he kill the powerful chacter knights chariot or big block of units.

archysucks_Hail_Crom
07-12-2005, 06:32
L&H=994
496
Lord of Tzeentch
disc, GW
staff & eye

249pts
Exalted of Tzeentch
disc. AoD or Gaze
Great Weapon

249 pts.
Exalted of Tzeentch
disc. AoD or Gaze
GW.

Core=912
235 pts.
5xknights of tzeentch
full cmnd

235 pts.
5xknights of tzeentch
full cmnd

81 pts.
5x marauder horsemen
musc. flails

81 pts.
5x marauder horsemen
musc. flails

280 pts.
2 mortal chariots of Tzeentch
I Actually forgot that the MoT was 20 instead of 10.:eek:

Special=90
90 pts.
6x furies

Total =1996
PD=14
DD=6

They will call it cheesy because it is a tough army that exploits a grossly overpowering magic phase. Some people can't come up with ways to deal with that and so have come up with severalterms for armies such as this. Cheesy beardy annoying cheating all that.

darkin
07-12-2005, 22:16
So that's it. Thanks for the help.

What is this armies potential? How would it stand up to other armies in theory without play testing, with a good player controling the army?

Neknoh
08-12-2005, 04:30
It would do well, as long as it keeps manouvering into favourable possitions and avoids chargin neck over head into fully ranked units screaming bloody murder ¤coughKhornecough¤

archysucks_Hail_Crom
08-12-2005, 08:26
It will force you to learn to manuever your champions well as they will be ALOT of points flying around the table and your spell casters. The list will honestly be up to the spells you roll.

if you get more combat spells like say orange and yellow fire then you want to use your champs in the flanks and rears of moderate enemies in combonation with your knights or chariots in the front. Basically to rack up the kills and to challenge the champ insuring no attacks back on your knights/chariots. also if they lose combat while your champ is there. Then he lost combat to a fear causing unit and so auto-breaks.:skull:

if you get blue fire and green fire you need to magic the crap out of him. Use green fire on anything with halberds or great weapons. Blue/red fire on support units like knights errant and marauder horsemen and hopefully you roll well on the strength.

If you happen to get indigo and you are facing a high toughness relatively well armored army trade it S2 will probably never wound. Buy/make horrors just in case though. This however is the answer to skaven SAD armies and night goblin fanatics.

Violet fire is the worst spell in the game bar none.12+ to cast 6" range and their character has to fail a LD test.:mad:

take your furies and one champ to go kill the warmachines FIRST. after that peal the champ off and have him do his thing. send what remains of the furies to either support units or low leadership units to maximize the effectiveness of their fear. Also remember your disk mounted champ causes fear.;)

try to isolate his units so that you can hit him with your knights/chariots in the front and either your horsemen or a champ (with orange or yellow) in the flank or rear. Always remember horsemen are fast cav and you can reform after they move movement provided.

remember to cast you RIP spells last. Can't tell you how many times I've F'd that up!

All in all good luck. It is not easy to win with so little troops but everyone will say that it was and use your superiority in the magic phase as an excuse as to why they lost.

darkin
10-12-2005, 01:30
I can't think of many more questions, are yo usure gaze is good, I'm not sure about my champ turning into a spawn if fleeing in the magic phase! Thanks for all the help and I'll just have to gather the force.

Neknoh
10-12-2005, 07:09
Well... if he is on a disc and fails to rally on Ld 8 or 9, he's dead anyways, this way, you get a spawn instead, so, don't worry

darkin
13-12-2005, 00:26
I like the list. I just thought up another for flexibility in the battles.
Hope I didn't screw up the list with basic mistakes again...So here goes.

Lord of Chaos an dragon] I know, cliche cheesey but bloody awesome!:chrome:
golden eye
staff of change
GW
MOT

Exalt on disc
AOD (armour of damnation)
GW
MOT

8 chaos Knights MOT
full cmd

chariot of MOT

chariot of MOT
5 marauder horsemen
flails musc

5 marauder horsemen
flails musc

5 chaos furies

6 chaos furies- Or I can have 6 furies and 2 units of 6 warhounds

2001 pts

Neknoh
13-12-2005, 04:43
You cannot have the second unit of Furies, they are 0-1 choice

darkin
13-12-2005, 23:25
Damn. One unit of 11 furies then.