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wingedserpant
07-02-2009, 22:19
I mean they are so easy to bait and cost so many points I tend to see them as easy victory points.

They are far from a point and click unit and personally if they do well against you then your opponent must have deployed well with screens and the like or you just let them get into your line.

I can't understand what the problem is.

And no my regular Vampire counts opponents are not rubbish. Well one is but the other two are great.

Neknoh
07-02-2009, 22:38
Blood Knights? No

Blood Knight Deathstar of Funneled, uber magiced death straight into your army that you still have to deal with to get any victory points?

Some might have a problem with those

Sifal
07-02-2009, 22:42
agreed, deathstar blood knights are difficult to deal with but if you have the right tools they are still b*****d. smaller units of blood knights fielded in a standard way are not cheesey, Black knights are far better point for point imo.

Lord Malorne
07-02-2009, 22:46
I find them quite capable of wiping out units, even if those units have good SCR...

That being said, a flank charge on them is easy points for an enemy player.

Rubicon
07-02-2009, 22:48
You deal with them the same way you deal with all deathstars, find the exhaust port....


Seriously though, Frenzied cavalry (and fliers) in themselves aren't difficult for a player (with the intelligence above that of an orange) to deal with, the problem is when they are used with other units and characters to cause maximum damage

Synergy is king in Seventh.

wingedserpant
07-02-2009, 22:50
Blood Knights? No

Blood Knight Deathstar of Funneled, uber magiced death straight into your army that you still have to deal with to get any victory points?

Some might have a problem with those

I'm not going to argue that that isn't a horrible unit but again its easy to send the unit across the other side of the boardwith a 65pt unit.

It isn't really that hard to kill about ten blood knights with some decent magic and shooting. Plus when the characters are not attacking the unit will fall to bits. That unit would scare me but I can see myself dealing with it. You'll practically gain ownership of the entire deployment phase.

And try getting your priorities strianght in the magic phase. Its not hard to stop magic being effective with five or six dispel dice. Just concentrate on stopping the movement spells.

wingedserpant
07-02-2009, 22:53
You deal with them the same way you deal with all deathstars, find the exhaust port....


Seriously though, Frenzied cavalry (and fliers) in themselves aren't difficult for a player (with the intelligence above that of an orange) to deal with, the problem is when they are used with other units and characters to cause maximum damage

You mean when your opponent uses tactics?

theunwantedbeing
07-02-2009, 23:09
Blood knights on their own.
Not even the slightest bit of a threat.

Blood knights in an army built around making sure they get to fight you.
Your going to have problems whoever you are.

Unless your a cheat.

That being said, anything in the hands of a properly good player is going to be a problem for you to deal with. Extreme luck is of course ignored as that isnt the norm.

Blood knights arent cheesy though.
One of the more interesting uses for them is simply as shepherds for the rest of your army.
Finding yourself overrun with the undead and then realising that if you do fight your way out, there are some blood knights about to make sure don't get more than a few paces is where they start to get really scary.

wingedserpant
07-02-2009, 23:37
Blood knights on their own.
Not even the slightest bit of a threat.

Blood knights in an army built around making sure they get to fight you.
Your going to have problems whoever you are.

Unless your a cheat.

That being said, anything in the hands of a properly good player is going to be a problem for you to deal with. Extreme luck is of course ignored as that isnt the norm.

Blood knights arent cheesy though.
One of the more interesting uses for them is simply as shepherds for the rest of your army.
Finding yourself overrun with the undead and then realising that if you do fight your way out, there are some blood knights about to make sure don't get more than a few paces is where they start to get really scary.

It is but you can only do so much to control your frenzied units and when you lose control you lose big.

Neknoh
08-02-2009, 00:32
It is but you can only do so much to control your frenzied units and when you lose control you lose big.

You mean when you loose control of the frenzied unit you can screen with raised zombies, created spirit hosts, healed Dire Wolves and which you can THEN move with bound AND cast magical movement spells?

Really, 4-6 dispell dice does not allow you to stop this. I use two level two's in most lists, I use these four dice to stop that one charge, but I am certainly not going to waste them trying to block one or two of FOUR attempted movement spells to turn the knights right.

Blood Knights gets redirected
You move your army up, putting them closer to the Blood knights or exposing their rears to said unit of monstrous Blood Knights (ten of them stacked full with characters).
The unit then reforms in their turn and is magically made to charge you, whether you like it or not, only dwarfs or tzeentch daemons can bring enough dispell dice to stop this really.

and then they start rolling up your flanks, your best bet is actually allowing them a rear-charge and placing their rear in front of your army.


I can deal with them, don't think anything else, the comment I stated was that people may WELL have difficulties dealing with the Death Star, I can send them to the other side of the table with 60 points worth of Warhounds in two consecutive overruns, yes.... but that's not gonna stop the Vanhells Dance Macabre hitting the unit, and even one of those will put the unit back into action, delaying it, at best, for one turn.

Also, able to control frenzied flyers? If they aren't Large Targets, I can agree... but please, attempt to control a Frenzied Chaos Dragon with a Khorne Lord on top for me, because Baiting it simply wont work, he'll charge over your screens at something else in his HUGE Line of Sight and Charge Range.


What I don't like about deathstars is that, to handle them, you must react to the movements of your opponent, because there are often very few ways in which you can threaten said star into moving as you wills it.

Condottiere
08-02-2009, 00:44
As with all things, Blood Knights on their own can be dealt with, but combining them with other factors that Vampires appear to have an abundance of, magic and undead cannon fodder, makes them very effective.

The dilemma is that you might be forced to meet them and blow your Dispel Scrolls in one round.

theunwantedbeing
08-02-2009, 00:50
It is but you can only do so much to control your frenzied units and when you lose control you lose big.

Controlling them is really rather easy.

The main reasoning behind this is that you need to get into my charge range to bait me.
Blood knights are in the useful movement range of having a decent movement rate, but not the fastest movement rate of their army.

So I can sit say...some dire wolves right next to my blood knight unit and if your sitting 1" into the BK's charge range, your going to be sitting a full 5" into the charge range of the dire wolves. So while your capable of baiting the knights, the dire wolves are also perfectly capable of supporting the knights.

A similar tactic can be used with fellbats, now your sitting 7" into their charge range.
This is of course assuming the blood knights are deployed right upto the limit of their deployment zone.

Similarly, I can just move my knights 14" forwards and now be 10" away from your units on turn 1 if I go first.
Good luck baiting that.

I reckon you've seen where this point is going so I need not say any more.

fluffstalker
08-02-2009, 05:00
Good points, unwanted and nek.

Just to sum up- its not that they cannot be beaten or distracted. They can, but at what cost?

When your opponent tailors his list around one thing and one thing only- BK. into. you.

Then its just boring. Its not even a wargame anymore, its just listhammering and then do a modicum of screening. So its not that you cant beat it, its that you have to "sell your soul" to do it, i.e build a simliarly boring list with guns galore or another deathstar.

AngryAngel
08-02-2009, 06:00
Point is they aren't cheesy or truely immortal. ( aside from being vampires). However they are strong and should be respected if used properly. Which is fine they are a strong unit and deserve to be tough. Yeah you can find ways around them but hell you can find your way around most units in the game can't you ?

Everything has a weakness. Same as it has its strong points.

R Man
08-02-2009, 06:19
The thing is you can't presume that the Vampire Player will be stupid. Unlike Chaos Knights the vampire army doesn't suffer too badly from few models, as they can use magic to create supporting units, and hitting them with artillery isn't too effective because of the ward banner and magic resurection.


It isn't really that hard to kill about ten blood knights with some decent magic and shooting. Plus when the characters are not attacking the unit will fall to bits. That unit would scare me but I can see myself dealing with it. You'll practically gain ownership of the entire deployment phase.

I'm going to call ******** on this one. Few armies can field substantial shooting (Dwarves, Empire and maybe skaven) and vampires can counter magic with their own magic. The stats of the knights are superb so they don't need characters to accompany them.

Bloodknights have few real weaknesses. They cost alot, but vamps can just raise the deficit, they can frenzy, but vamps have plentiful supporting units to stop this and can create their own in a pinch. Even if you pull this off, the knights don't just go poof! They can still move quickly as cavalry and be Van Helsed back into the action. Even if they fail to break their enemies, they have so many attacks and their strength drop of is not too bad, so they can just continue to chew through most adverage infantry.

Neknoh
08-02-2009, 09:10
Point is they aren't cheesy or truely immortal. ( aside from being vampires). However they are strong and should be respected if used properly. Which is fine they are a strong unit and deserve to be tough. Yeah you can find ways around them but hell you can find your way around most units in the game can't you ?

Everything has a weakness. Same as it has its strong points.

Yes, they are respected if used Properly.

Otherwise, I settle for playing a draw, because frankly, "Defeat the deathstar" got old the second time i saw Star Wars. If it is a tournament, I'll of COURSE attempt to beat it, but it will be, at best, slightly interesting and a game of "can i charge everything strength 5 or greater into them at once?"

Neckutter
08-02-2009, 10:32
Unless your a cheat.

i fell out of my chair, when i read this. :)

Rman has it right. i call BS as well.

Jack Spratt
08-02-2009, 11:04
WHAT THE H*** IS DEATHSTAR?
I har heard this therm used before with shades... Someone please explain :)

Neknoh
08-02-2009, 11:06
A unit with so many points sunk into it that you WILL have to confront it in order to win the battle

And confronting said unit usually results in anything confronting it being slapped into next sunday.

Worst part is that this perticular deathstar have:

Magical movement
Multiple strength 5 attacks even when charged
Does not break in conventional ways
Regeneration
Hefty armoursaves
Can be raised back!
14" charge range
Accompanied by BsB and nasty Lord for additional CR

... to name a few of its points :p

wingedserpant
08-02-2009, 11:15
Similarly, I can just move my knights 14" forwards and now be 10" away from your units on turn 1 if I go first.
Good luck baiting that.

Well I'll completely fill his entire charge arc with wolf riders so they'll have to charge into them at an angle which will send them towards the nine fanatics I field in my army.

That will kill five or seven easily.

And of course in your first magic phase my priortiy will not be dispelling your bound spells but the ones that raise dead so my fanatics don't get sent out early. My units are huge so I can take your magic missles.

fluffstalker
08-02-2009, 11:20
Problem is, with multiple casting of danse, its too easy to get the knights back on track. It could be even worse for you if the knights chase the riders into a position which they can then make flank or rear charges. Not to mention that they can be raised back.

Neknoh
08-02-2009, 11:37
And there is a reason Fell Bats are taken allongside Dire wolves, to pull and then sit on fanatics.

You are really expecting the fanatics to NOT be released by the time you move those redirectors?

Valtiel
08-02-2009, 13:13
I have two times been up against Blood Knights with regeneration banner. First I baited them with Furies (old HoC army) and flank charged them with Knights with an Exalted. Took 2-3 turns to destroy them, I lost some Knights during that, and a Giant even came to help my Knights. It really was annoying to fight such a unit but I destroyed them and won the game.

Second game, my opponent had one Blood Knights unit with Regeneration banner and two units of Black Knights with 9 and 5 in them. Thanks to my 12 power dice in my new WoC army I was able to blast the Blood Knights away in turn 2, with only the battle standard left (and a Giant and some spawns killed him). The 9 Black Knight unit was also destroyed with magic. Once again, it is annoying since I need to rely on having a lot of magic to do something against them, I could use Warhounds yes but with 9 power dice my opponent could have changed the movement of the Blood Knights.

They are certainly not cheesy but the options you can give them can make them very annoying and will force you to deal with them.

theunwantedbeing
08-02-2009, 13:57
Well I'll completely fill his entire charge arc with wolf riders so they'll have to charge into them at an angle which will send them towards the nine fanatics I field in my army.

That will kill five or seven easily.

And of course in your first magic phase my priortiy will not be dispelling your bound spells but the ones that raise dead so my fanatics don't get sent out early. My units are huge so I can take your magic missles.

1. Why are the blood knights deployed at the limit of their deployment zone without anything screening them?
2. You'll have a horrible time stopping me drawing out fanatics. Fell bats can land 4" away from your deployment zone...this means your night goblins need to be deployed more than 4" into their deployment zone to stop me releasing them on turn 1. If I do go for you, you need to stop me using van hels to make sure I get them released as well.

Things just plain arent as simple as you think they are.
You can of course generate 8 dispel dice easily enough at 2k, which is pretty good for stopping a lot of spells early on, but nothing I sugguested above really needs magic to work. Aside from using van hels to bait you if your depoyed really far back. But then your stuff is released as soon as you move anywhere.

This is more an argument on the capabilities of a VC army to mess with you and ignore your own attempts to mess back, rather than how cheesy blood knights may or may not be.

Kerill
08-02-2009, 14:04
Blood knights are powerful but with frenzy are easy enough to bait/redirect/ send pursuing off into the great blue yonder. Heavy duty magic or shooting can also put them down quickly enough.

Not a cheese unit IMO

Neknoh
08-02-2009, 14:24
Kerill... I know you're better than this... please read the discussion beforehand.

It's

not

that

simple

Vinsanity
08-02-2009, 15:17
What about sending an Arch Lector on War Alter with speculum to challenge the blood knights? Would that work from an empire perspective, kinda just to tie them up?

Ozorik
08-02-2009, 15:18
Redirection is often much easier said that done as there are some easy counters to it, plus some armies are very short of fast,mobile troops. Shooting is also extremely ineffective against a unit with a 4+ ward and regeneration.

Bloodknights are fine, a blood knight unit consisting of about 80% of the armies points cost is not.

Kerill
08-02-2009, 16:07
Kerill... I know you're better than this... please read the discussion beforehand.

It's

not

that

simple

I think is is that simple, I've played against a variant of it (only 8 blood knights, regen banner, ward save banner, vampire lord) with two different lists, took it down once and led it astray the other time.
Admittedly the time I destroyed it (3rd turn) I was playing Tzeentch daemons, but the second time I just flank charged it with light cavalry, it won and ran over to the wrong side of the field. Then dispel vanhels, not every vampire will get the spell, and even assume the vampire lord goes for all spells and gets 50 point level 3 ugrade and +2 magic dice abilit it's a 3 dice spell and, power stones aside he can cast it on 3 dice once and on 2 dice twice (with 12%, 42% and 42% chances of failure so will probably only get it off twice per round and that's what DD and scrolls are for). Also unlike redirecting or baiting forcing him to pursue due to frenzy will take them a lot further from where they want to be than just redirecting or baiting.

Even if you redirect it and hit it in the flank with a big unit of infantry, you only have to win 1 round to negate frenzy. It would get nastier if the unit was 15 strong though because then they would have higher US and that would swing the combat.

It's a one trick pony army, but with some glaring weaknesses. It's not weak by any means but considering how many points it costs it's not the end of the world either unless it hits your own "big unit of thumpy doom" in which case you will get outthumped.

Neknoh
08-02-2009, 16:23
I would say that the biggest problem with said unit is when it is indeed a unit of fifteen and you suddenly realise... that's where the victory points are, end of story, if you don't kill it, he is likely to kill enough support troops using it to get you a draw.

Winning against such a list is not a fun thing to attempt, I think that is the biggest problem with it

Kerill
08-02-2009, 16:38
I'll agree with the lack of fun bit, but that goes to some extent for any deathstar build, but I find the blood knight one less offensive than the grave guard, black guard or shade deathstar because I think a balanced army actually has a chance to deal with it and use frenzy against it (and there is always lore of the beasts) whereas the other ones can be a lot more bothersome unless you have the right army list.

Neknoh
08-02-2009, 16:45
I usually find it the other way, the Black Guard Star and similar are easier controlled due to lower movement (not completely contained by it though, if I can get chaos warriors into combat, I pretty darn well expect my opponent to be able to manouver M5 units into combat).

But it is mainly the more squshy nature of such a "deathstar", overrunning past it with units that later swing around to hit the rear of it is something very tasty to do and a good way of handling it I've found.

It is the high manouverabillity found within an ITP block of "can't touch this" Blood knights that's annoyingly boring to play. We have different ways of dealing with the Blood Knights.

Although, I do wonder... no bound Vanhels on that unit?

Kerill
08-02-2009, 16:52
No bound vanhels, the people I play with aren't crazy WAAC players tooling to the nth degree, they just try and give everything a go, pretty cool actually. They make strong lists but don't just spew up WAAC lists taken from the internet.

I wonder how long until someone slips in a chaos knight deathstar with the rapturous standard, not as nasty but cheaper.

Whilst I don't play my overpowered daemons anymore one great thing about Tzeentch daemons is that they are a great evener against other WAAC lists (DE aside), the more elite and uber your opponent army gets the better bolt of change gets whereas if they took a core heavy balanced army well shielded and led I would really struggle.

ruttman15
08-02-2009, 16:52
i dont think they are necessarily cheesey, but when you raise about 10 of them... welll...
it depends on how you use them imo

Neknoh
08-02-2009, 17:07
Aha

That might be the difference betweent he Blood Knights we have faced then

Only faced the BK deathstar in a tournament... twice... two different players... same tourney... -.-

Those were WAAC I tell you, players not too nice neither, but at least I still gave them a decent run for their money, but the games were not the least bit enjoyable, and, due to the points invested in the deathstar, there simply was not much more to do other than take a charge from it and redirect it into the middle of my army with the overrun and then swamp it with everything I had.

In the end, I got half VP's for the first of them, the second one had a slightly different setup, and after my last turn, he spammed IoN like mad, bringing back enough knights to bring him above half strength again. Those were... fun games.

I have played friendlier versions, and they are, indeed, easier to tackle and make for slightly more (although still not completely) enjoyable games.

But for Chaos Deathstars, we need Sigvald, a BsB nearby and the Raptorous Standard, only breaking on 11 ftw ^^

Kalec
08-02-2009, 17:52
Blood knights are brutal, but very dependent on support units and magic. I have found dire wolf deathstars much more difficult to handle, because being fast cav makes them a whole lot less reliant on support, and the four characters are plenty killy.

AngryAngel
08-02-2009, 19:53
Well they should be brutal for how much ya pay for them money wise. I could see deathstar units of them being very annoying. However standard units aren't that bad, just tough and strong. Which is why I like them so much. I'm just glad I got them before they got really expensive like they currently are.

ChaosVC
09-02-2009, 01:37
I always thought that Blood knights are decent if you field them in small numbers and with nehek you can raise them back, to say they are cheesy because of nehek is kind of weird because you can stop that spell and it only brings one back. Personally, I think grave guards are cheesier if blood knights are considered cheesy.

wingedserpant
09-02-2009, 18:47
And there is a reason Fell Bats are taken allongside Dire wolves, to pull and then sit on fanatics.

You are really expecting the fanatics to NOT be released by the time you move those redirectors?

Since I can choose which direction fanatics go I will simply move them in the direction of the bait unit.

They ain't going to be able to sit on all of them.

Plus I'm sure you can only cast the movement spell on a unit once.

Sifal
09-02-2009, 18:58
Plus I'm sure you can only cast the movement spell on a unit once.

A single unit can only be moved by vanhel's danse macabre once in each turn, it can be attempted as many times as you like.

Gharof von Carstein
09-02-2009, 20:19
all praise necromancy spells :D

would the worst deathstar blood knight unit look somewhat like this?

(considering this is 2k and you still need more stuff in your army than just the knights)

blood knights x5 with standardbearer and royal standard of the strigoi(blood keep banner has little use due to regen)
Vamp BSB with walking death and dreadknight, banner of drakenhof
Vamp Lord with supernatural horror, dread knight, red fury, dreadlance, book of arkhan, and magic level to add to those PD and DD we need, maybe a extra macabre!

a unit of 7 vamps with:
-hatred
-all str 7 on the charge and str 5 when charged
-2+AS and 4+ ward
-Terror (due to the lord)
-10 autohits, 18 rerollable vamp hits and 11 str4 rerollable mount hits.
-static CR of 3 at the least (banner, BSB, and walking death)
-able to macabrepult itself due to book.

total = 1080p

its more than half your army points at 2k but id say with what it could do its way worth it :P the magic missile could be a problem but if you expect it to be drop the hatred and add bloodfang to be on 1120 total :D

i would not want to face this :P there is plenty points left for:

-2 or more core units at reasonable sizes with vamps in it that probably add to their units
-plenty of screening units in the form of dire wolves (dirt cheap) and fell bats
-corpse cart (hey lets add ASF to that list! yay!)
-varghulf (whats a terror causing bad ass deathstar without a big ass starship to help it cause more hurt!)

Disciple of Caliban
09-02-2009, 20:36
^^ Nope, That list would be much worse if it has more bloodknights in the unit. As is its quite possible to face that list and get a minor win without touching the deathstar itself. A 'good' deathstar list makes it impossible for your foe to get anything other than a draw/defeat without engaging the uber unit (basically, its the uber unit and just a couple hundred points of core)

Gharof von Carstein
09-02-2009, 21:35
personally im not a deathstar kinda guy. i like to swap my chances around dont just trust on a one trick pony. i dont know how many blood knights most VC players have. but i only own 5 as the models are so expansive!

W0lf
10-02-2009, 00:08
Bloodknights are fine.

Deathstar bloodknights are as fun/dull/cheesy as most other deathstars.