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PotatoDeamon
08-02-2009, 03:30
What do you think would be needed to make Ogres a competitive army (not overpowered) come thier next Army Book?

I, for one, believe that the gnoblars shouldn't be limited to the number of Ogre Bull units in your army. Paying 200+ points to gain access to a 40 point unit isn't gonna cut it. I'm not sure what else is needed though. Any ideas?

Bac5665
08-02-2009, 04:00
A point drop for Bulls would help a lot.

Impact hits that happen regardless of distance is a no brainer.

Make leadbelcher shooting better and misfires less bad.

Thats off the top of my head. A lot of units are just way overcosted.

DigbyWeapon
08-02-2009, 04:26
I don't know too much about Ogre Kingdoms but I would agree a slight points drop could go a long way.

Digby

Freenut
08-02-2009, 04:27
Ogre club always working and not dependent on weather you use other weapons or not would also help.



Gnoblers have the same problems that peasents have in the bret. list. On paper they sound great because they can give static combat rez. to you hammer units. Problem is they can not keep up with the rest of the army or if they do get in combat they die to easy.

Feefait
08-02-2009, 04:39
I agree with losing the limitations on Gnoblars.
I would say quickly:
- point drop, not much maybe 3 or 4 points.
- give them basic armor save of 6+ for tough hide/gut plate,w hatever.
-impact hits should get bonus to strength if there is another model behind them, not directly behind as it currently is. menaing you could go 3 x 2 and if you got the impact hits then all 3 would get +1 str
-gut magic has to be improved. less (no) chance of every mage dying on a miscast.
- some defense against shooting
some crazy thoughts: no penalty for using gw's?, make their ranks dependent on wounds, not models. so 6 wounds in a row makes a rank. so a 3 x 2 would have 2 ranks. skirmishing ogres, or at least yhetees? this would give them a -1 to be shot.

havoc626
08-02-2009, 05:15
I say that all Ogres should have a 'scaly' (more like 'thick') skin save of 6+ (5+ for the tyrants) and that bulls should get Lt armour. This makes the army more resistant to shooting and makes sense. Tyrants really should have Terror. They are a heap scarier than any other ogre, and should reflect it.

Having ranks only needing 3 models wide for the ogres is something that'd be good and help with their lack of static res.

I like the idea of them not taking the penalty of GW, and that makes heaps of sense. They are big and can swing something like that with ease.

Maybe make Ogre clubs morning stars? I think this may make them the only common morning star left in the game.

Bull charge needs to lose the min charge range. While good in fluff, it is easily countered by most armies by simply being just outside of charge range, then marching to inside the distance. I say that the model behind is still fine, and doesn't need to be changed, as it is a good way to get up the S of the hits, but doesn't make simply having 1 ogre behind them increase all S by 1. Maybe make the bonus work on ranks? This is good for units with wider than 3 ranks, but not for ranks of 3, as you'd lose 1 ogre and then lose a S from all impact hits, not just 1. I really think it doesn't need changing, other than the min charge move.

Gnobblars. Get rid of bicker. I think that them being surrounded by heaps of Ogres that might just decide to eat them if they don't do what they are told to do would make them have enough sense not to sit around argueing with each other. Maybe make it if they are outside of 6" of an ogre unit they might bicker.

Thier magic items need so much work that I won't bother with all of it. Weapons are good, but the rest isn't. Maybe for the 'Common Items' make the weapons GW as well. Why would an Ogre attack with a thinling's weapon anyway? Armour. Make something that gives a good armour save and one with a good ability. Talismans need a 4+ wards save, but if an armour had this that's fine. Maybe make Wyrdstone Necklace have a 4+ ward. A 5+ one isn't worth the risk of taking a wound. Halfling Cookbook is good as it is. Dragonhide's first ability is good, but maybe make it do more. Maybe 2 impact hits for each model instead of 1? The second part is no use anymore (unless they bring back Kislev in a new book) so just get rid of it.

Somehow I think that getting beaten up by something smaller than you would make you want to go and smash something even smaller than you, so Giants shouldn't lose Stubborn. Make them Stubborn, but also have Frenzy, to show they really want to pick on the (very) little guy.

At the rate army books have been going, OK are going to need a major overhall to bring them up to scratch. Hopefully it will be a good release.

Drongol
08-02-2009, 07:40
Fixing Ogre Kingdoms is actually a fairly daunting task, as everything about the book is subpar. That said, here we go.

Rulebook Change
-Clarify the way weapons that cause multiple wounds work with units containing models with multiple wounds. If a Bull unit with 2 wounds takes 6 wounds from a single cannon shot, the end result should be 1 dead Bull and no wounds on the unit. Right now, it's 1 dead bull and 2 wounds on the unit.

Army-Wide Special Rules
-Remove the movement limitation on Bull Charge or do away with the rule altogether. Right now, Ogres are paying points for something that they never get to use.

-Allow Ironfists to be used as both Shields and AHWs at the same time, meaning that a unit of Bulls with Ironfists and Light Armor would have a 5+ AS and 4 Attacks.

-Ogre clubs should just mean that all Ogres' attacks are armor piercing.

-Remove the Dogs of War rule for Ogres. While fluffy, it's neither necessary nor helpful, as it means that Ogres have to be balanced internally against every other Rare Unit in the game.

Gut Magic
-Remove the self-damaging aspects of Gut Magic. The lore really doesn't stack up.

Magic Items
-Put simply, OK need a complete overhaul. Right now, there are five items, perhaps, that get used and the rest just aren't worth it.

-Give Ogres an anti-magic item or two that can be used by a non-Butcher that isn't a Gnoblar Thiefstone.

Big Names
-Massive rewrite here. There are two that might be taken right now.

-Big Names shouldn't take up magic item point a la Bloodline Powers or Daemonic Gifts.

Characters
-Remove the 0-1 restriction on Tyrants.

-Allow a Slaughtermaster to be taken before a Tyrant is.

-Allow a Bruiser BSB to take mundane equipment and magic items (if no magic banner is taken).

-Reduce the points cost of the Hunter and allow for more Sabretusks to be taken. Optionally, variety in his critters might make him more useful.

Core Units
-Bulls need a points deduction of 3-5 and/or for light armor to come standard.

-Ironguts need to be 3-5 points less expensive, too. WS 4 wouldn't hurt things either.

-Remove the restriction on Gnoblar Fighters.

-Heck, I'm willing to say remove the restriction on Trappers and make them (and Fighters, too!) not count for mandatory Core. This would probably be the one thing that would have the most potential for overpowering the army--Trappers are the best thing in the OK book, believe it or not.

Special Units
-Yhetees need to be closer to 50 points and should get Ogre clubs, even if they're not Ogres.

-Scraplauncher needs to not be considered a Chariot. If the Corpse Cart isn't a chariot, then it isn't, either.

-Make the Leadbelcher misfire only do d3 wounds on the unit with armor saves allowed. Swinging a cannon that's attached to your arm should count as a Flail, now that I think of it.

-Move Maneaters to Special Units, cut their points by 30%, and give them command options (Bellower/Standard at least).

Rare Units
-Allow 2 Gorgers per Rare slot. This also might need some serious testing.

-Remove Slavegiants. Replace them with real Giants. You can call them Slavegiants if you want.

-Include Rhinox Riders in the Army Book, perhaps toning them down somewhat if necessary.

If you do all these changes, Ogres might be middle tier, frankly, as a lot of them are cosmetic or minor in nature. In order to make Ogres truly competitive, there'd need to be a lot more done, in my opinion. That said, my overall record has more wins than losses with Ogres.

Drongol

Agoz
08-02-2009, 07:45
remove the minimum range and minimum number of models on the bull charge.
count 3 ogres as a complete rank.
Replace the restriction on slaughtermasters with the butcher restriction, just make it so they can't be the general, the tyrant requirement is too restrictive.

Make the hunter's crossbow move and fire.

Allow bulls to use their club with an ironfist or extra hand weapon.

I don't really think changing the GW rules for ironguts will do much, being as they are initiative 2, possibly give them another point of weaponskill, but I can live without it.

change the gnoblar rule from one for every bull unit, to one for every ogre unit.

give yhetti extra hand weapons.

I'm tempted to say just remove the reloading rule on the leadbelchers all together, no other unit in warhammer needs a turn to reload, so I doubt it should be any different for dumping a bunch of weapons down the barrel of a cannon.

These changes plus a points reduction across the board and it'd be fairly competitive, also, a retouched magic items selection would be nice.

Dark14
08-02-2009, 07:51
no need to make them OP cut points by 3 of all ogres light armour. Yhetees have magic attacks and -1to hit move through terrain they are very good. hunters more pets is a good one and can join units mabey. Rhinox in the book toned downa hell of a lot. Never make gorgers 2-1 this will be taken advantage of. you seen an army with skrag and 6 of them? ya its not fun. ledbelchers are fine how they are and there miscast table should be bad but orc bad not suicidal.

PARTYCHICORITA
08-02-2009, 07:58
Something i've always felt ogres could use is some form of defense vs light shooting. A feel no pain or ward save maybe vs S4/5 or lower hits to represent the ogres durability which allows him to ignore such wounds.

I also feel they should have a rule or a unit similar to either the slaver rule of corsairs or the horselords rule or maurader horsemen; something they could use to have a decent chance of destroying breaking enemies.

havoc626
08-02-2009, 08:21
Really the only thing that ignoring the GW penalty will come into use is against other non-ASF GW, but at least it is a good advantage against them. Quite frankly, I think a hulking beast of a thing could swing a GW quicker (or at least harder, but giving them GW with +3 S would be stupid. Come to think of it, it might just happen, this is GW we are talking about...) than an empire Greatswordsman.

Rikkjourd
08-02-2009, 08:26
The Ogre Kingdoms book should be rewritten from scratch. Seriously, this book was crap when it was released... And now that crap has been torn to shreds by powercreep. So basically the book is small shreds of crap in a pile.

I have played OK alot. Even if there was a 5pt drop on every ogre model in the army coupled with a free 6+ save and no minimum range for impact hits I still think it wouldn't be even close to the power of deamons.

Yes, I know I am whining. But the book deserves it.

Condottiere
08-02-2009, 11:49
While I found OK interesting, I never considered them a viable independent army. As regards to dropping the DoW listing, that would be consistent with current policy.

Grapeshot
08-02-2009, 16:09
Give the army an Ettin as a Rare unit. Oh, that's an Chaos Ogre.

catbarf
08-02-2009, 16:46
The problem with Gnoblars is that they give free CR to the opponent. Their static CR doesn't mean much when the enemy can easy kill off four or five of them. What this means is that in order for them to be remotely useful, they'd need a special rule so that wounds they suffer do not count towards determining who wins the combat.

Maneaters need another point of T.

All Ogres need to have Light Armor standard due to the gutplate, with options to make it heavier.

Leadbelchers need to misfire less or do a hell of a lot more damage.

That's all I have off the top of my head.

him_15
08-02-2009, 16:48
Overall point drop would generally fix OK.

Mozzamanx
08-02-2009, 16:57
Alot of people want ranks to be 3 Ogres, but would that really solve anything? You're still paying 200pts for a single rank.
Maybe they can count the first rank as a total rank as well, meaning that even 3 Ogres would generate +1 Combat resolution, 6 would give +2 etc.

Possible make the Gutplate as a formal item, giving a 6+ save and can be combined with armour. IE- Ironguts heavy armour + gut = 4+ save.

Ironguts either WS4, or ignore the striking last penalty on Great Weapons

Kerill
08-02-2009, 17:02
I hope they don't drop the DOW thing, I'm a big fan of DOW in general.

Bull charge should always work as noted.
I think butchers are very good as is and a slaughtermaster rather than tyrant might be a bit too much. Giving bulls additional ogre clubs (2 ogre clubs) rather than a/hw would help. Free light armour would round them off I think.

The hunter needs the scout rule

Gnoblars are fine as is, if you wanted to improve them you could give them a more randomised bicker table. Trappers are great.

Leadbelchers are pretty decent too as they are.

Maneaters seriously need a points drop, and allowing a command group would help them a lot.

Scraplauncher needs to lose the "counts as chariot rule"

Officially adding in rhinox riders would add a lot of oomph to the list, as would allowing them as a mount for heroes/lords.

An improved magic item section including an anti-shooting banner would be good.

If the slave giant is going to go without stubborn it needs a further points reduction.

Rikkjourd
08-02-2009, 19:10
Just a few problems about OK in general:

Protection from ranged attacks combined with small CC gains by increasing unit size. This I find mostly concerns lists used to face any opponent. If the number of ogres in each unit is increased to help preserve combat effectiveness (and avoid panic) against a shooty opponent you will lose the MSU play style that is way better against a CC specialised opponent.

Insanely dangerous magic. To win front vs front combats (and lets face it, they WILL happen no matter how many times the words MSU+flank are repeated) you need those buffs. While it is great to have all spells cast on 3+ (first time at least) and go spamming it will also knock off enough wounds on your butchers to make you spend the last two magic phases of the game trying to win back the VPs you gave up/will give up by wounding your own butchers... And I don't even have to go into the miscast table... terrible. Also, no lord level wizard under 3k?!

Not very good big names/magic items. First off, big names shouldn't come from magic item allowance. A little anecdote: In a game not long ago I told my opponent that I didn't have the tenderizer on my tyrant. As it turned out, neither him or the two guys watching the game could think of a single OK magic weapon besides the tenderizer... Gives a hint about the different character builds that are competative in the OK book.

I could go on ranting forever... Well, endrant. =)