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Nicha11
08-02-2009, 04:33
Can someone run the numbers for me.

If Chakax the Lizardmen SC

and a Chaos Lord with MOK, Juggernaut, enchanted shield and Aethersword.

Were involved in a duel/challenge who would win on average?

Chakax stats

Ws5 Bs0 S5 T5 W2 I3 A4 Ld8

Re rolls to hit, Enemy magic weapons don't work, Enemy always strikes last, Great Weapon, 5+ ward and 4+ armour save.

Chaos Lord

Ws9 Bs3 S5 T5 W3 I7 A5 Ld9

Has -1 armour save and frenzy.
Juggernaut Ws5 S5 A2.

The Lord costs 340pts Chakkax cost's 335pts

So one average, who would win?

devolutionary
08-02-2009, 04:42
I didn't run the math too far, but in the first round, the Lord loses about .8 of a wound while Chakax loses 1.1 or more. By wound difference alone, Chakax will lose in a protracted fight on average.

Dokushin
08-02-2009, 05:44
Chakax strikes first:
Ws5 vs Ws9 means hit on 4+, that means 3/6 of attacks hit, and misses reroll, so the 3/6 misses get the same chance to hit
Total chance to hit is therefore (3/6) + ((3/6)*(3/6)) = 3/4
S7 vs T5 means wounds on 2+, that means 5/6 of hits wound
-1 armor save becomes 3+ after S7 which means that 2/6 of wounds get through armor.
4 attacks.
This means that Chakax deals (3/4)*(5/6)*(2/6)*(4) = .83 wounds.

Chaos lord comes back with:
Ws 9 vs Ws 5 means hit on 3+, that means 4/6 of attacks hit
S5 vs T5 means wounds on 4+, that means 3/6 of hits wound
4+ armor save becomes 6+ after S7 which means that 5/6 of wounds get through armor
5+ ward save means that 4/6 of those wounds get through the ward save
5 attacks.
That means that the lord deals (4/6)*(3/6)*(5/6)*(4/6)*5 = .93 wounds.

The juggernaught (I'm going to make this shorter):
WS 5 vs WS 5 = 4+, S5 vs T5 = 4+, AS is 6+, ward is 5+, two attacks
(3/6)*(3/6)*(5/6)*(4/6)*2 = .28

SO, that means Chakax will deal .83 wounds, and take 1.21, on average. The Chaos lord will kill him typically, but it will take a round or two. He is, after all, a lord choice.

EDIT: Corrected to account for re-rolling misses. Should've payed attention to devolutionary above me; he called it :D

Nicha11
08-02-2009, 06:15
did you factor in the re-roll to hit for chakax?

grhino
08-02-2009, 11:35
You can see that in the math right? No, he did not. Beneath, the right math is there, although I did not actually figure out how hight you chance is now to do a wound. Should be 3/2 times as high as before, because one more hit gets through because of the re-roll which has the same chance to wound and not be saved as the other two hits....

Chakax strikes first:
Ws5 vs Ws9 means hit on 4+, that means 3/6 of attacks hit
S7 vs T5 means wounds on 2+, that means 5/6 of hits wound
-1 armor save becomes 3+ after S7 which means that 2/6 of wounds get through armor.
4 attacks.

This means that Chakax deals 4(attacks)*(3/6+1/4) (total hits incl average re-roll)*(5/6)*(2/6) = x wounds.

Dokushin
08-02-2009, 19:28
Corrected to account for reroll misses. Sorry about that.

Result is the same, though; Chakax can't quite take on a Chaos Lord on Juggernaught. He will, however, tie it up for a round or two and probably get a wound or two on him.

Nationalmaverick
09-02-2009, 00:37
Can I point out that Chakax is Hero slot...

Expensive as he is he brings alot to the table for a Hero slot.

Nicha11
09-02-2009, 02:08
Can I point out that Chakax is Hero slot...

Expensive as he is he brings alot to the table for a Hero slot.

Problem is he's more expensive then most lord Choices and probably not as effective.

But i'll still use him, because of the great model and background.

Jericho
09-02-2009, 03:56
What else does he do for 300 bloody points? He appears to have hero-level stats and ~100 pts of magic gear (estimating item costs based on similar items such as Runeshield and Amber Pendant), which should not add up to 300.

g0ddy
09-02-2009, 04:36
He also happens to make his TG unbreakable.. and gets to reroll lookout sir tests if needed for himself and his slann.

~ zilla

Lord Dan
09-02-2009, 04:51
Unbreakable isn't too far off from LD10 on 3D6 with a re-roll, which the TG have without him.

MURPH
09-02-2009, 05:50
Leadership 8 with a reroll on coldblooded.

Nationalmaverick
09-02-2009, 07:38
T5 ST(7), 2 Wounds, WS 6
Is far far better then Heros in almost every other army book.
Ive taken him in two games and through challenges alone he's at least double his points cost in both games, not too mention the three Night Goblin Fanatics he forced to reveal themselves last game and that subsequently smashed their way through my opponents lines.

Lord Dan
09-02-2009, 19:33
Slaan is Ld8?

09-02-2009, 22:20
Chakax strikes first...

Would anyone care to explain this bit? The way I see it:

Chakax has a great weapon, which always strikes last except when charging.
Chakax has a rule that removes ASF from the enemy, and they always strike last.
If two fighting models have always strikes last, striking order is based on Initiative.

So, the only way I see Chakax ever going first is if he is the one that charged; with I4, he's not going to be beating any other races Hero- or Lord-level characters (with a couple of exceptions, of course).

blackjack
09-02-2009, 22:26
Slaan is Ld8?

No the temple guard are LD8 and stubborn with a slann. Stubborn is on the guards LD not the Slann's so as soon as TG with a slann lose combat by 1 or more they roll on a cold blooded 8.

Neckutter
09-02-2009, 22:30
temple guard dont break from combat anyways, rerollable 3d6 Ld 8 is basically unbreakable :P

and im assuming every temple guard unit has a slann BSB in it with the fear banner.

W0lf
09-02-2009, 23:19
why fear banner?

He cases fear, they are immune to psy... no use for fear banner.

Slaan, bsb, warbanner is however VERY common. I cant really see the use of chakax tbh. TG + Slaan are hella expensive already... for the price of a hero thats not needed i could buy 4 sallies/razordons or hell get 2 scar vets for hsi cost with magic items.

themandudeperson
10-02-2009, 00:53
Actually, he's quite useful if you play someone who loves to over indulge themselves with Dark Elf assassins. Sure they'd manhandle most heroes while remaining fairly undercosted for their destructive potential, but with Chakax you no longer have to worry about them hiding in a unit or their ASF+KB 4+D3 attacks as they're forced to reveal themselves and in a challenge with him they'll be forced to strike last and in a head up match his strength 7 will plaster a T3 W2 model every day of the week.

Max_Killfactor
13-02-2009, 18:42
SO, that means Chakax will deal .83 wounds, and take 1.21, on average. The Chaos lord will kill him typically, but it will take a round or two. He is, after all, a lord choice.

Since Chak Attack strikes first though, he has a decent shot. Chakax should die in 2 rounds, but he essentially has 3 rounds to kill the lord. In three rounds Chakax would do about 2.5 wounds, so with slightly above average rolling (or slightly below average rolling by the Chaos player) Chakax could pull off the upset.

Weemo
13-02-2009, 21:29
Can I point out that Chakax is Hero slot...

Expensive as he is he brings alot to the table for a Hero slot.

i must disagree, admittedly he is a beast in combat however he is nowhere near worth 340pts, ok he makes temple gaurd unbreakable but normally (with slann as bsb) they are itp, cold blooded, and stubborn on LD9 (?), therefore they dont care if you cause fear and only ever fail thats a one in 36 chance of fleeing no matter what (if my por maths is right), so chakax is bringing a good character killer with mediocre saves and a bonus that temple guard dont need. Id rather take an scar veteran and save 200pts.

TheDean04
13-02-2009, 23:10
Would anyone care to explain this bit? The way I see it:

Chakax has a great weapon, which always strikes last except when charging.
Chakax has a rule that removes ASF from the enemy, and they always strike last.
If two fighting models have always strikes last, striking order is based on Initiative.

So, the only way I see Chakax ever going first is if he is the one that charged; with I4, he's not going to be beating any other races Hero- or Lord-level characters (with a couple of exceptions, of course).

This is a good point and I tend to agree that it would be based on int. after the charge of Chakax.

Vestigialante
14-02-2009, 02:02
T5 ST(7), 2 Wounds, WS 6
Is far far better then Heros in almost every other army book.
Ive taken him in two games and through challenges alone he's at least double his points cost in both games, not too mention the three Night Goblin Fanatics he forced to reveal themselves last game and that subsequently smashed their way through my opponents lines.

He only has to declare that the unit contains them, it doesn't immediately release them like a unit coming within 8 inches.

At least that's how I interpret "their presence must be declared as soon as they come within 20" of Chakax." (emphasis mine)

There is no wording there to indicate that the assassin must reveal himself, or that the fanatics are released. Only that your opponent must inform you of the hidden contents of the unit.

John Vaughan
14-02-2009, 03:16
I won't lie, chaquax scares me. A lot
Somebody armed with a great weapon with a base S5 who strikes before you it terrifying, to most things.

Pacha
14-02-2009, 12:45
I won't lie, chaquax scares me. A lot
Somebody armed with a great weapon with a base S5 who strikes before you it terrifying, to most things.

While this sounds brutal on paper, I don't think its really all that. As mentioned, his GW effectively cancels out his magic keys-of-strike-last so he won't actually go before chargers unless they also have GWs and I3 or less.

This leaves T5 as his only real defence as 2W and a 4+/5++ save is by no means guaranteed to keep him alive long enough to strike back. Any 40-50pt heavy cav champion has a reasonable chance of taking him down.

Sure he'll maul infantry champions and mages but then for over 300 points, he bloody better do! A regular scar-vet with GW, LA, Enchanted Shield & Glyph Necklace wouldn't do much worse for less than half the points...

TheMav80
14-02-2009, 14:57
The key makes his opponent in a challenge strike last no matter what. So they strike last. Even after Chakax.

DarkstarSabre
15-02-2009, 12:53
The key makes his opponent in a challenge strike last no matter what. So they strike last. Even after Chakax.

Yep. The GW doesn't cancel it out. It -doesn't- resolve in initiative order. It is that simple. In a challenge Chakax's opponent always strikes last. The rule even states regardless of any special rules, magic items etc. that they may have. To me this is clear cut.

Chakax always strikes first in a challenge. ALWAYS. Not resolving in initiative order or anything like that.

Necromancy Black
15-02-2009, 23:30
Would anyone care to explain this bit? The way I see it:

Chakax has a great weapon, which always strikes last except when charging.
Chakax has a rule that removes ASF from the enemy, and they always strike last.
If two fighting models have always strikes last, striking order is based on Initiative.

So, the only way I see Chakax ever going first is if he is the one that charged; with I4, he's not going to be beating any other races Hero- or Lord-level characters (with a couple of exceptions, of course).

I don't think he gives his enemy the Strike Last rule. The rules for him are ambiguous. They simply say the enemy strikes last, not that they have the Strike Last rule.

Another thing for the FAQ.

John Vaughan
18-02-2009, 02:32
I think a fun way to one up that would be using a Wardancer Highborn with the Amber Pendant against that. I strike last? You too! I have I7, you? Aw, that's too bad. Want to see these way cool Blades of Loec? Or how about this Annoyance of Netlings? Man, all the sudden you suck at fighting, what's the deal? Eh, no matter, have some killing blow.

Surgency
18-02-2009, 06:11
In that case, Blades of Loec doesn't provide rerolls, as it's treated as a mundane wardancer weapon due to Chakax's Star-Stone Mace :p