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Righter8
08-02-2009, 10:29
Let me post the guidelines for the tourney I'd like to participate in, followed by the list I've made.

Rules:
The total cost of all Character choices (including magic items, upgrades and mounts) must be less than 25% of the army.
The total cost of all Core choices must be at least 30% of the army.
The army must contain more than the required number of Core choices.
The required Core choices must be at least 150% of their minimum unit size.
The total cost of all magic items must be less than 15% of the army.
The army must contain fewer than the maximum number of Special choices.
The army must contain fewer than the maximum number of Rare choices.
(These rules have been modified by me to represent what I need to gain a maximum score for composition. I don't need to adhere to them if my list is legal, but I will lose points overall.)

2250 Pts - Dwarfs Roster - Unnamed

Master Engineer (1#, 90 Pts)
1 Master Engineer @ 90 Pts
General; Hand Weapon; Dwarf Handgun; Brace of Pistols; Gromril Armor

Master Engineer (1#, 90 Pts)
1 Master Engineer @ 90 Pts
Hand Weapon; Dwarf Handgun; Brace of Pistols; Gromril Armor

Master Engineer (1#, 90 Pts)
1 Master Engineer @ 90 Pts
Hand Weapon; Dwarf Handgun; Brace of Pistols; Gromril Armor

Thunderers (15#, 250 Pts)
14 Thunderers @ 250 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Dwarf Handgun; Light Armour; Shield
1 Veteran @ [25] Pts
Hand Weapon; Dwarf Handgun; Light Armour; Shield

Dwarf Warriors (30#, 295 Pts)
29 Dwarf Warriors @ 295 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield
1 Veteran @ [19] Pts
Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield

Dwarf Warriors (30#, 295 Pts)
29 Dwarf Warriors @ 295 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield
1 Veteran @ [19] Pts
Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield

Dwarf Warriors (30#, 435 Pts)
29 Longbeards @ 435 Pts
Upgrade to Longbeards; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield
1 Veteran @ [22] Pts
Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield
1 Runic Standard @ [50] Pts
Rune of Slowness (x1)

Artillery Battery (4#, 175 Pts)
1 Cannon @ 175 Pts
Rune of Forging; Rune of Penetrating (x2); Cannon
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour

Artillery Battery (4#, 165 Pts)
1 Cannon @ 165 Pts
Rune of Penetrating (x3); Cannon
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour

Artillery Battery (4#, 155 Pts)
1 Grudge Thrower @ 155 Pts
Rune of Accuracy; Rune of Penetrating (x2); Stone Thrower
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour

Artillery Battery (4#, 120 Pts)
1 Organ Gun @ 120 Pts
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour

Total Roster Cost: 2160
That leaves me 90 points to play with that I can't decide how to spend, especially without losing composition points.

My basic plan: Use a denied flank, with a combination of Enduring Mountain and Bear Trap deployment. Each artillery piece will be joined by a Master Engineer with the exception of the Organ Gun.

Advice?

Righter8
09-02-2009, 08:41
I guess its a solid list...

TonyFlow
09-02-2009, 09:41
Well, to be honest, i think its kind of a strange list.
Characters: Why three engineers? Their stats and abilities arent really worth the points. And by only taking this character, you wont have any fighty characters to take on other characters/boost cr, you also dont get much needed magic protection that the runesmith gives you or the vital breaktest reroll from a BSB.
I would go for a cheap Lord on shieldbearers, Rune of Stone, Rune of Resistance and a greatweapon, Runesmith with great weapon and two runes of spellbreaking and a BSB with master rune of gromril, rune of resistance and rune of cleaving. Leaving you under 25% and not too many points spent on runes.
Units: Thunderers and quarrellers should really be taken in units of 10 with shields and no command, 15 lined up will take too much space.
The blocks of warriors are fine left at 25, elite infantry can settle with 20. You might also consider changing the runic banner to something boosting CR.
Warmachines: You are aware that a cannon is already str10??? Why on earth are you putting strength runes on them??? Not only is it utterly pointless, it is also way too expensive. Consider taking only one cannon with rune of forging (and possibly rune of burning to take care of all the regenerating stuff out there). Grudgethower, again too expensive, one rune of penetrating will do the trick. This will leave you more than enough points to get two bolt throwers with engineers and possibly some runes.

To sum up: You are quite inefficient in all aspects. Weak characters that lend no support to the big fighting units, but on the other hand lend all their support to a weak shooting department, and you have no magic defence.

Aeolthir
09-02-2009, 13:29
TonyFlow, you are so right!
I generally build my dwarf army the way you described it!

The only thing I see is that you could have 2 BTW and a cannon or grudge thrower for artillery and add a strong elite unit like hammerers or ironbreakers.

lcfr
09-02-2009, 15:58
Well it won't be difficult to drop all master engineers (270pts) and exchange them for a Runesmith (approx. 140pts w/runes) and BSB (approx. 130pts w/some runic armour).

I think your warmachines have more runes than they need; your cannons can't take RPenetratings, since the max. strength is 10 (besides, why would you want > S10?).

Your missile units don't need full commands; I know you need at least 15 in a unit, but banners are free VPs for anyone who hits your line successfully and a vet @ S3 adds nothing. Your Longbeards would be better served w/RCourage or RStoicism to help against fear-causing enemies, or a combination of RStoicism and RBattle, rather than the RSlowness. The only runes you need on your cannons imho are RBurnings and RForgings; with spare points from dropping all the needless RPenetratings you can buy wm unit engineers to serve as extra crewmen if you're worried about wm defense.

I'm not a fan of grudgethrowers, but if that's the direction you want to go then good luck. But you've nearly doubled its basic points cost with runes that won't be that helpful; one RPenetrating ought to be enough for grinding down ranked infantry.

If you drop most of the runes you have on your cannons and replace them w/more effective runes, you should have some points left over from this, plus an additional unused 90pts...probably almost enough to buy a unit of quarrelers w/shield; if you need to drop a few Longbeards to do this then that wouldn't be an awful shame either.

I know that the composition restrictions affect the way you build the army, but ultimately you have way too many points invested in your WMs which could otherwise be spent on more core units or a fighty character.

lcfr
09-02-2009, 16:02
Units: Thunderers and quarrellers should really be taken in units of 10 with shields and no command, 15 lined up will take too much space.

Under normal circumstances this is the case, but consider that he has to have 150% of the minimum unit size (hence 15 for core units); it's not optimal, but two ranks of 7/8 on a hill isn't a bad idea.

Righter8
09-02-2009, 21:16
Thanks for the replies. When I get the time, I'll adjust and repost.



Characters: Why three engineers? Their stats and abilities arent really worth the points. And by only taking this character, you wont have any fighty characters to take on other characters/boost cr, you also dont get much needed magic protection that the runesmith gives you or the vital breaktest reroll from a BSB.
I didn't post it, but there are also points awarded for themed armies. Mine being based on a Guild Expeditionary force. I also wanted the benefits they could provide the war machines.

I would go for a cheap Lord on shieldbearers, Rune of Stone, Rune of Resistance and a greatweapon, Runesmith with great weapon and two runes of spellbreaking and a BSB with master rune of gromril, rune of resistance and rune of cleaving. Leaving you under 25% and not too many points spent on runes.
I'll look into this.

Units: Thunderers and quarrellers should really be taken in units of 10 with shields and no command, 15 lined up will take too much space.
lcfr hit this on the head. The Enduring Mountain deployment will provide the hill for two ranks to fire.

The blocks of warriors are fine left at 25, elite infantry can settle with 20. You might also consider changing the runic banner to something boosting CR.
My experience with other armies is that due to Dwarf movement, they assume they will always get the charge and will run straight toward the closest Dwaf unit to prevent getting shot up. Knocking off a few inches to their charge will cause them to stop after 4 inches (most opponents will have a move of 4, I know there are exceptions) allowing a possible Dwarf charge in the following movement phase. I'd rather do the charging, especially considering Dwarf init. and If I reduce the Longbeards as suggested. Again, I'll look into the options.

Warmachines: You are aware that a cannon is already str10??? Why on earth are you putting strength runes on them??? Not only is it utterly pointless, it is also way too expensive. Consider taking only one cannon with rune of forging (and possibly rune of burning to take care of all the regenerating stuff out there). Grudgethower, again too expensive, one rune of penetrating will do the trick. This will leave you more than enough points to get two bolt throwers with engineers and possibly some runes.
Okay, Cannons, that was a mistake on my part. As the cannons in the army book aren't listed with stats and reference the Rulebook, I thought they were Str 7. I thought the Great Canons were Str 10 and Cannons were Str 7. The runes I chose will change.
Grudgethrower: I want indirect fire. Too many times I've seen things run from cover to cover to pounce on the opponent. I've used my VC in a similar way: hide behind large cover raising skeletons and zombies and never exposing the General until the enemy gets close. I'd like to hit them no matter where they may be. The extra Rune of Pen may be too much though. I keep getting my game systems mixed and associate high strength with "Instant Death" in 40K.

TonyFlow
10-02-2009, 00:07
Oh yeah, my bad on the unit size on the thunderers, and with a hill it wont be a problem.
I would still suggest you change the theme of your army. Those engineers really dont bring enough to your army to be worth it. You might get high comp score, but against other competative lists out there, you will have some problems winning a game.

Good luck!

Righter8
10-02-2009, 00:41
Updated list. A lot of changes, for the better I think. I can still retain my theme, added more units and toughened the ones that will bear the brunt of combat (I hope). Master Engineers will be placed with the warmachines appropriate depending on the opponent. Thane and Runelord stuck into 25 man Warrior units. 2 smaller dwarf units to hold back on the ends of the battle line to discourage flanking.

2250 Pts - Dwarfs Roster - Unnamed

Master Engineer (1#, 90 Pts)
1 Master Engineer @ 90 Pts
General; Hand Weapon; Dwarf Handgun; Brace of Pistols; Gromril Armor

Master Engineer (1#, 90 Pts)
1 Master Engineer @ 90 Pts
Hand Weapon; Dwarf Handgun; Brace of Pistols; Gromril Armor

Runelord (1#, 204 Pts)
1 ~[(^One or more selected options present a potential usage conflict]~[(#]Runelord @ 204 Pts
Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Gromril Armor; Shield
1 Runic Armor @ [5] Pts
Rune of Stone
1 Runic Talisman @ [50] Pts
Rune of Spellbreaking (x2)

Thane (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Thane (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 155 Pts
Hand Weapon; Gromril Armor; Battle Standard Bearer; Oath Stone
1 Runic Weapon @ [20] Pts
Rune of Cleaving (x1)
1 Runic Armor @ [25] Pts
Master Rune of Gromril

Thunderers (15#, 225 Pts)
15 Thunderers @ 225 Pts
Hand Weapon; Dwarf Handgun; Light Armour; Shield

Dwarf Warriors (25#, 250 Pts)
24 Dwarf Warriors @ 250 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield
1 Veteran @ [19] Pts
Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield

Dwarf Warriors (25#, 250 Pts)
24 Dwarf Warriors @ 250 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield
1 Veteran @ [19] Pts
Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield

Dwarf Warriors (10#, 115 Pts)
9 Dwarf Warriors @ 115 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield
1 Veteran @ [19] Pts
Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield

Dwarf Warriors (10#, 115 Pts)
9 Dwarf Warriors @ 115 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield
1 Veteran @ [19] Pts
Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield

Dwarf Warriors (20#, 290 Pts)
19 Longbeards @ 290 Pts
Upgrade to Longbeards; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield
1 Veteran @ [22] Pts
Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield
1 Runic Standard @ [25] Pts
Rune of Battle

Artillery Battery (4#, 140 Pts)
1 Cannon @ 140 Pts
Rune of Burning; Rune of Forging; Rune of Reloading; Cannon
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour

Artillery Battery (4#, 115 Pts)
1 Grudge Thrower @ 115 Pts
Rune of Accuracy; Rune of Reloading; Stone Thrower
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour

Artillery Battery (4#, 120 Pts)
1 Organ Gun @ 120 Pts
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour

Artillery Battery (4#, 45 Pts)
1 Bolt Thrower @ 45 Pts
Bolt Thrower
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour

Artillery Battery (4#, 45 Pts)
1 Bolt Thrower @ 45 Pts
Bolt Thrower
3 Crew @ [0] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour

Total Roster Cost: 2249

C&C?

tricker53
10-02-2009, 01:36
uuh might i point out one of the rules you posted at the top: The required Core choices must be at least 150% of their minimum unit size. does this mean only 3 of your core choices must be 150%, or all of them?

also, your lords and heroes is just over 25% of your list. 589x4=2356

Righter8
10-02-2009, 08:27
"The required Core choices must be at least 150% of their minimum unit size."
Yes, its only 3 that must be required. After that, you just need to meet minimum size requirements.
Thanks for pointing out the Hero/Lords error.
I deleted a couple runes I thought redundant on them and added a full command to the smaller warrior units.

lcfr
10-02-2009, 19:53
Looks a lot better. I think you would do well to downgrade the Runelord to a Runesmith, since for 60pts cheaper you can have a pretty much identical character w/scrolls/MRuneBalance. I'm not sure how useful your smaller warrior units will be, especially if you'll be playing a lot of denied flank and enduring mountain. Engineers for your BTs are a good idea as well, +1BS comes in handy a lot.

Guy Fawkes
10-02-2009, 20:21
I would drop the Runelord down to a Runesmith - no real reason to have a Runelord unless you want an Anvil, since the Runesmith can take all the anti-magic runes you want anyways (and a Runelord is twice as expensive, whereas two Runesmiths allow for 6 talisman runes, an additional wound, and two more attacks).

Drop the redundant weapons on the Master Engineers - a Handgun and brace of pistols are pretty useless on a model that hopes to be further than 24" away from the enemy. The stand and shoot and additional attack aren't worth the cost, since any warmachine that is charged is screwed anyways.

Drop the Runes of Reloading. If an enemy focuses fire, they will wipe out the entire crew. You can entrench two warmachines anyways, and they will all be way far away (so the enemy is at long range, if in range at all). Besides, after all this, Dwarfs are T4, and many of the hits will hit the unkillable warmachine. The turn after crew are reduced you fire normally anyways, and any Cannon that is sustaining concentrated fire won't be around to enjoy the 1-crew reloading sensation.

Drop the Great Weapon on the Runelord. You'll want him to just tank it anyways.

What's with the minimum-sized Warriors? At 115 points + 100 VPs for the standard, you better have a good use for them. They don't have great weapons, so they can't really be expected to kill anything, but without ranks they won't make a main fighting block. I guess you can flank attack with them, but for only 120 points you can get Quarrellers with Great Weapons, who will be useful while the enemy moves and can charge into the flank and kill something. For just 130 points (15 more than what you spent, minus the standard) you can make them scouts, where they will annihilate enemy shooting and artillery.

Honestly, you're going to want some runes on the Bolt Throwers. I recommend Engineers also. The Rune of Burning and Rune of Penetrating on one, and maybe leave the other empty (or just one of the above runes). There are really two things a Dwarf castle fears: Heavy Cavalry and Monsters. Your Thunderers and Grudge Thrower can drop most infantry, but enemies with a 1+ save or T5+ things will get through. The worst part about these threats is that they generally are fast, leaving you few turns of shooting. Against many lists out there (eg. All Chaos Knights lists, Double Hydra + Dragon DE, 2 Dragon HE, Karl Franz + Steam Tank, etc...) a single cannon will fail to really stop the enemy and much of your shooting will be rendered useless. You really need those Bolt Throwers to pull through for you, so giving them +1 BS (unless you plan on having the Master Engineers join them, in which case Engineers are unnecessary) and some boosts via runes will save you. Obviously the above armies won't make the comp. score, but you do want to do pretty well against most lists.

And about the flanking, if you are playing refused flank, the Warrior units are unnecessary; you just have to minimize the exposed area and plug up your frontage with big blocks. The Organ Gun can stop flankers by itself.