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View Full Version : New to 5th Ed...and very suprised.



StareAtTheSuN
08-02-2009, 18:39
Alright, so heres my deal, back in the day (5 years or so ago) I played 3rd edition space wolves. I was pretty good, I usually won, or placed in the top 3 of our local tournaments of around 15 people, I enjoyed playing the game, and I seem to remember the rules being a lot more simple, however, 5th ed is a totally new/different game it seems!

I switched from Space Wolves to Tau, and yeah, suffice to say, I'm getting slaughtered, close combat is wrecking me, and I swear everyone/every army is deepstriking everything 12'' or so away from me, slaughtering everything I have. I've read about Tau strats, FoF, and everything else, but I really don't see how FoF is all that effective when you can get so easily rocked in your DF by anti-tank fire.

Another thing that really gets me, is that 5th seems really really biased in favor of CC. Their is simply not enough distance on the board or enough ways to keep the CC troops of my enemies away from me, one squad of assault marines wrecks basically anything in my army, and when they were bunched up, my enemy just multi-unit assaults, and takes out 10 man squads with 4 guys, its insanity.

I am really frustrated with the base mechanics of the game I think too, scatter dice on a hammerheads submunition? Come on! Tau are capable of interstellar travel, they can defeat an entire splinter fleet of 'nids without losing a single ship, and we can't accurately put a shell into a building (something the United States could do in WORLD WAR TWO???)

Ugh, I'm just really really annoyed with 40k right now, the rules seem to favor CC way to much, everyone gets cover saves from my shooting, but do I get any cover saves from the assault troops that just deep struck and assault me? No.

I don't mean to unload such a rant, but I don't see how tau can be expected to deal with all this, not to mention our codex is out of date, and we have nothing on the horizon.

So please, someone tell me what to do, or should I just go back to playing space wolves or chaos so I can win once in awhile?

Hankyaku
08-02-2009, 18:46
Keyword: kroot. :)

Believe me, every shooty army is suffering in 5th ed. You have to redefine your strategies, base them on picking the biggest threat and concentrating your fire.
Also find good cannon fodder to throw into the meelee. In your army that would be the kroot carnivore squad. Remember, that there's no more sweeping advance. So if your enemy cuts your kroots down, then they're up to your mercy. Also since the enemy gets close to you anyway, don't be afraid of using fusion guns, and plasmas. Also if you wish to spare your troops, keep a devilfish close, since you can make the distance, and leave your enemy out on the field.
So there are solutions, especially for an army with as many options and guns as Tau. (Guess what, I play necrons - I have no guns which work against marine :/ .)

srintuar
08-02-2009, 18:56
Tau gunlines were always weak. their basic rifle seems impressive, until taken in the context of the game. Pretty much any army can get fast moving assault troops, And even the weakest of those will dominate you in CC. You cannot afford to sit around and be vulnerable.

The tau really excel only in a few areas:

1) Battlesuits. Tons of firepower, and quite mobile. They can unload everything while backing away or hopping over terrain quite easily.

2) Vehicles. The Disruption Pods upgrade has made tau skimmers almost unfair: be sure to take advantage of it.

Kroot do well if there are forests. Better than firewarriors at least.
these guys should be holding objectives for you, or outflanking to take them from the enemy.

Firewarrior belong in devilfish.

Fill in the rest with suits and other vehicles.

Lord Malorne
08-02-2009, 19:01
Not news or rumours, please, please read the FAQ's...

They are there for a reason...

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26207

As you can see, this is not the place for this.

This is: http://warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2

Mojaco
08-02-2009, 19:15
Tau can do fine. Play more, both with and against Tau to learn their subtleties and you'll learn if you're a halfdecent player. Or complain some more, give in and start space marines.

t-tauri
08-02-2009, 19:21
Please read the posting guidelines and look where you're posting. Moved to 40k general.

szlachcic
08-02-2009, 19:22
Well to be fair, all these deep striking troops you speak of should not be able to assault the turn they come in. If you aren't able to adjust to their attack then your force isn't mobile enough. I remember back in 3rd that gunline style armies could clean up, but that wasn't true in 4th and isn't in 5th. You just have to adjust your tactics.

Also, units that win a close combat can no longer consolidate into a new combat, this is a huge bonus for shooty armies. Use a unit as bait if you have to and then allow the close combat unit to become stranded.

As for your complaint about the hammerhead munitions, IMO scatter weapons are much more fun to use in 5th. You can always roll a hit on the die 1/3rd of the time and the rest of the time you still get to subtract your BS from the scatter, so it isn't too bad unless you roll really high.

RichBlake
08-02-2009, 19:34
I've found that 5th edition doesn't favour CC armies at all, in fact it seems to penalise them.

Volleys of fire from fire warriors kill basically everything. Marines will be taking lots of armour saves, Guardsmen wont be taking any.

Cover is bothering you? Use markerlights to reduce armour saves.

Tanks bothering you? Railguns are the best anti-armour weapons in the game at the moment.

Stealth suits tear up basically everything, the ability to move 6" fire at 18" with assault 3 weapons then retreat back 6" in the assault phase. If you've played with them properly your stealth suits should be 24" away from the enemy. Since you need to roll 2D6 x 3 in order to seem them you're looking at a roll of 8 on the dice to manage to hit them.

Seriously, Tau are one of the best armies there are when used properly. You need to practice a bit more, study your battles and see where you have gone wrong and augment your army list with units to make up for weaknesses.

Arador
08-02-2009, 20:50
Ugh, I'm just really really annoyed with 40k right now, the rules seem to favor CC way to much, everyone gets cover saves from my shooting, but do I get any cover saves from the assault troops that just deep struck and assault me? No.

"Decent people shouldn't live here. They'd be happier somewhere else."

If in doubt, leave the game. It'll save you no end of hardship in the long run.

Misfratz
08-02-2009, 21:03
Well, compared to third, bear in mind that area terrain doesn't block line of sight to units behind it, though those units do get cover saves. This helps shooty armies - assuming that you play witha decent quantity of terrain [and if not, why not?].

Tau also have a lot of mobile firepower - battlesuits, piranhas, vehicles. They should be able to deal with deep strikes relatively well.

You can also use these elements to try and set up a "refused flank", trying to lure your opponent into a long slog when you redeploy these mobile elements when they were placed on one flank and then moved away.

I think there are lots of things you can try. It also might be worthwhile trying to find people who will play you in smaller games, so you can concentrate on getting the most out of the basics in a Tau army.

Don't give up!

Thrax
08-02-2009, 21:15
My group is reintroducing Overwatch to the game, but we're also not allowing LOS past two blocks of area terrain. If you play with the same group of people on a regular basis it's easier to adjust things that seem wrong (such as the ridiculous 'parapet' rule) but otherwise you're going to have try your best to deal with the rules as they are. Good luck to you and don't give up...GW will probably print a new rulebook before the paint on your next model is dry.

IronNerd
09-02-2009, 00:05
I'm sure I'm not saying anything overly new here, but it should probably be said over and over. Tau are fine, there are some negatives to 5th, but we are about where we were. Don't let him assault multiple units, use Fish with Disruption Pods, shoot him before he gets close. I've been doing quite well with my Tau in 5th. They aren't nearly as good as my Chaos, but they are far from the worst army out there.

marv335
09-02-2009, 00:07
Actually melee units have been significantly nerfed in 5th ed with the removal of the ability to consolidate into combat.
Any close combat units that hit you are going to be blasted apart in the tau turn

Johnnyfrej
09-02-2009, 02:08
Actually 5th helped shooty armies by preventing assaulting units from consolidating into CC continuously.

quigglebert
09-02-2009, 02:20
it stopped me from walking my GK termies across the battlefield in melee, now i have to hope the enemy hold for one turn before they die or break so i can keep the gits safe, the tau have been hamstrung like every non SM army thats just GW's wa,y but at least they are still a viable army, and i know they are tough but fun to use, try a hammer and anvil approach, half your army as a firebase the other half as a mobile weapons platform the firebas pores fire onto the enemy while the platform strafes

spaint2k
09-02-2009, 02:36
There's a guy at my local club who plays an insanely difficult-to-beat Tau army. It's become my obsession to create a list that will crush him.

I suppose it doesn't help that the guy is a compulsive cheat (rubber tape measure syndrome, inconsistent treatment of cocked dice, "misunderstanding" various rules...) but regardless, his army is still very tough.

Steve

Nym
09-02-2009, 03:27
As some have said, try playing with 4th edition rules and you'll discover a world of pain. Consolidation into combat made Gunlines a pain to play. I used to have nightmares where Hormagants consolidated through my whole army on Turn 1 with me unable to kill a single one of them... :(

Now even though a lot more units can Deepstrike (usually those units would be on you by turn 2 anyway, so it's no big deal), the game is a lot more balanced on the CC / Shooting side.

fluffstalker
09-02-2009, 04:10
Sounds like your playing a 4th ed style list, where all you had to do was sit back, adjust the terrain in your favour, and blast away till kingdom come. With all the rules favouring vehicles and cover saves, Id suggest a total revamp.

Its either a mech list with suit support or suit list with some vehicle support.

Take advantage of suits mobility and keep them out of charge ranges. Use one or two carnivore meatshield squads to strand termies and the like. Disruption pods on your hammerheads make them godly.. seriously. With two or three of them then scattering should eventually go your way, though if you really want to hve some orc/ig nuking ability but htey are hiding in cover then grab some crisis with flamers. They may have to get uncomfortably close but steer them clsoe to regular troops and use your assualt move wisely and you should be able to take out large numbers of guys.

Doppleskanger
09-02-2009, 05:23
well I've said this on another thread recently, but I don't see tau as a great beginners army in 5th ed, but there is nothing wrong with the list. it will take you a while to get used to it and playing Tau is definitely more tactically challenging than previously. Stick at it, resign yourself to lots of losses as you learn a new rule set with a fairly tricky list. then when you do start winning in alittle while you'll get more satisfaction :) Alternatively take an easier army like an orks or nids, and just try running at the enemy and eating them, you may prefer this style.
Despite some peoples opinion, the gun line can still be used to devastating effect, for example the most common lists are MEQ and the cover save thing is therefore a non issue in the majority of games. What you need is lots and lots and lots of low power fire rather than relying on a few high S high AP weapons, which was never that good an idea.
Target priority is also more crucial than ever, giving the game a more tactical edge.

Give the game time, learn the rules, balance your list for your own style, learn tactics you enjoy. Or jog on. It's up to you.

precinctomega
09-02-2009, 11:55
Is the point of playing the game only to win?

Part of the fun - especially when playing with a new army - is learning how to manage it to best effect. Yes, there have been rules changes that have altered the way the game plays. That's why rules are changed! But blaming the game for your failure to win isn't going to help you.

Tau just aren't a CC army, whichever way you look at. Learn to use fire and manoeuvre effectively. The Tau are second only to the Eldar in being able to use their vehicles to rapidly reorientate their principle battle line and a clever Shas'O will frustrate and tease his opponent, annihilating enemy fire support at range whilst avoiding assault charges with the use of jetpacks and Devilfish.

R.

EVIL INC
09-02-2009, 12:05
Sometimes it is also a matter of tactics and strategy.
Markerlights work wonders
As someone else has said kroot can assist in close combat and slowing an enemy down.
Concentration of fire can also help. Concentrate fire to take out the units that are the most dangerous to you first. For example, that assault marine squad poses a greater threat to you then the tactical squads sitting back taking pot shots with thier las cannon so you should have as many units shoot at the assault marines as possible until it is gone, THEN worry about the other units sitting and taking pot shots at you.

Hellgore
09-02-2009, 14:03
What I can say is that one of my Tau-friends has fought a lot of battles by now and has more wins than losses. Another one has been devastated by my Ultramarinelist with Ironclad (heavy flamers YAY!) in Droppod and some vanguard shocktroops. But he hasn't really adopted to 5th so far. The other one has quickly found the tactics necessary to keep tau a tough army: Some Krisis, some Battlesuits with plasma and missiles, two squads oft kroot, two squads of firewarriors. Two hammerheads with ion cannons and that disruptor system plus some combatdrones and markerlights - et voilą there you are. It's not unbeatable but it puts up a hell of a fight with any opponent. And I think this is what this game should be all about. Noone wants to play against an unbeatable everwin army.
Tau can still be tough in 5th but you have to adapt your tactics drastically.

SPYDER68
09-02-2009, 14:13
Ranged can still shine, i play Static Guard and have great luck with it..

Last sat i placed first out of 22 in a local tourney, i had 3 wins 1 tie.

i played vs

Orks
Ultramarines
Tyranids
Shrike based raven wing army.

on a 4x4 table...

You just haft to practice at what your army can do etc and pre plan on how to handle each opponet.

Vs these first turn charges, sac a squad, put one a bit in front of your army to shield rest to take the hit... They cannot consoldate into your other squads so no worries.

vs all deepstrike lists, find a spot with cover, swarm into it and dont let them drop behind your lines bye huddling up and spreading your units out so they cant.

Tau can be hard ish at times, but can be effective.

Lord Solar Plexus
09-02-2009, 14:46
I played 3rd edition space wolves...
I switched from Space Wolves to Tau, and yeah, suffice to say, I'm getting slaughtered, close combat is wrecking me


Reversed sides, eh? So you found out that Tau in 5th aren't as good in CC as SW in 3rd. Small wonder that you are a bit...annoyed but this simple fact should've been clear from the start.



Another thing that really gets me, is that 5th seems really really biased in favor of CC.

As others have pointed out, that isn't the case, and I have no idea how anyone could think that, especially when compared to 3rd with its Rhino Rushes and absurd consolidation distances. Don't clump your forces together to avoid multi-charges. Sacrifice units to get another turn of fire in, and another. use your excellent mobility to simply redeploy away from threats. It really shouldn't be such a huge problem at all.

volair
06-03-2009, 19:14
Alright, so heres my deal, back in the day (5 years or so ago) I played 3rd edition space wolves. I was pretty good, I usually won, or placed in the top 3 of our local tournaments of around 15 people, I enjoyed playing the game, and I seem to remember the rules being a lot more simple, however, 5th ed is a totally new/different game it seems!

I switched from Space Wolves to Tau, and yeah, suffice to say, I'm getting slaughtered, close combat is wrecking me, and I swear everyone/every army is deepstriking everything 12'' or so away from me, slaughtering everything I have. I've read about Tau strats, FoF, and everything else, but I really don't see how FoF is all that effective when you can get so easily rocked in your DF by anti-tank fire.

Another thing that really gets me, is that 5th seems really really biased in favor of CC. Their is simply not enough distance on the board or enough ways to keep the CC troops of my enemies away from me, one squad of assault marines wrecks basically anything in my army, and when they were bunched up, my enemy just multi-unit assaults, and takes out 10 man squads with 4 guys, its insanity.

I am really frustrated with the base mechanics of the game I think too, scatter dice on a hammerheads submunition? Come on! Tau are capable of interstellar travel, they can defeat an entire splinter fleet of 'nids without losing a single ship, and we can't accurately put a shell into a building (something the United States could do in WORLD WAR TWO???)

Ugh, I'm just really really annoyed with 40k right now, the rules seem to favor CC way to much, everyone gets cover saves from my shooting, but do I get any cover saves from the assault troops that just deep struck and assault me? No.

I don't mean to unload such a rant, but I don't see how tau can be expected to deal with all this, not to mention our codex is out of date, and we have nothing on the horizon.

So please, someone tell me what to do, or should I just go back to playing space wolves or chaos so I can win once in awhile?

Tau can win in 5th edition, but there is only one way you can play the army. You have to take 3 hammerheads with railguns, and then you take full units of crisis suits with the stength 7 guns for destroying transports, and fire warriors in devilfishes. You basically play kill point denial or last turn objective grabbing with your firewarriors inside devilfishes. You basically can't annihilate the enemy, so you have to play defensively and just keep your units alive. That is the style of play that Tau does best, because their units are either incredibly mobile, or are inside resilient vehicles. If you don't like that play style then you need to start collecting a different army, because it likely isn't going to change anytime soon. I'm not telling you that you have to play that army, I'm just telling you the facts that it is the only Tau army that can win. I've also read that gun drones on vehicles give off free KPs, which will cause you to automatically lose any game involving KPs; I'm not sure if there are gun upgrades that replace the drones, thereby eliminating that weakness at a cost. Does anybody know?

Dangersaurus
07-03-2009, 04:06
Tau can win in 5th edition, but there is only one way you can play the army.

Pay no attention to the non-Tau player giving advice on how to play Tau. It is very possible to win without Hammerheads, you don't have to run maxed-out Crisis Teams, and vehicle-mounted drones are anything but a drawback in 2/3rds of all games.

Eryx_UK
07-03-2009, 13:00
I don't play Tau, but I have played against them enough to know that even under 5th they are a damn good army.


Alright, so heres my deal, back in the day (5 years or so ago) I played 3rd edition space wolves. I was pretty good, I usually won, or placed in the top 3 of our local tournaments of around 15 people, I enjoyed playing the game, and I seem to remember the rules being a lot more simple, however, 5th ed is a totally new/different game it seems!

The SW codex is old, and under the current rules may be seen as a broken list (after playing against it recently with my marines, I think so but only because of edition differences).

As for editions, 5th edition (IMO) is the best thus far. Its balanced, flows better, makes sense and has toned down a little the crazy good assault based armies (thank the Emperor!).


I switched from Space Wolves to Tau, and yeah, suffice to say, I'm getting slaughtered, close combat is wrecking me, and I swear everyone/every army is deepstriking everything 12'' or so away from me, slaughtering everything I have. I've read about Tau strats, FoF, and everything else, but I really don't see how FoF is all that effective when you can get so easily rocked in your DF by anti-tank fire.

Its a different edition to what I guess you are used to. There are a lot of changes from earlier editions and its simply a case of relearning how your army will play. You have to adapt.


Another thing that really gets me, is that 5th seems really really biased in favor of CC. Their is simply not enough distance on the board or enough ways to keep the CC troops of my enemies away from me, one squad of assault marines wrecks basically anything in my army, and when they were bunched up, my enemy just multi-unit assaults, and takes out 10 man squads with 4 guys, its insanity.

Quite the opposite. Without the consolidation rule assault armies cannot just sweep through through your army anymore. They may eradicate one unit but then your units turn round and blast the snot out of them. I knoew a few Tyranid players who cry foul at that one, but assulty armies had it too good under prior rules.

I have to agree to a small degree about the amount of assault that goes on in 40K, but without it you end up with unmoving gunlines and thats no fun.


I am really frustrated with the base mechanics of the game I think too, scatter dice on a hammerheads submunition? Come on! Tau are capable of interstellar travel, they can defeat an entire splinter fleet of 'nids without losing a single ship, and we can't accurately put a shell into a building (something the United States could do in WORLD WAR TWO???)

With some weapons scatter doesn't make a whole lot of sense (why do frag missiles deviate but krak don't? :confused: ) but I accept it as a balance concern.

Aslso don't buy into the fluff so heavily. There is no way that the Tau took out an entire splinter fleet (except maybe a teeny tiny one) without losses. Each codex is a propaganda leaflet to make your army sound the most badass.


Ugh, I'm just really really annoyed with 40k right now, the rules seem to favor CC way to much, everyone gets cover saves from my shooting, but do I get any cover saves from the assault troops that just deep struck and assault me? No.

The cover save rules under 5th are great. It means that units can advance up the board getting some protection from the big guns and without being cut down. Too often I see Tau played as static gunlines, when they should be mobile and deploying where they are most needed.


I don't mean to unload such a rant, but I don't see how tau can be expected to deal with all this, not to mention our codex is out of date, and we have nothing on the horizon.

So please, someone tell me what to do, or should I just go back to playing space wolves or chaos so I can win once in awhile?

You need to adapt. This is not the edition you knew in days past. Sit down with your codex and the rules for an evening. Make notes, and see how the two books interact when building your list. Remember that you need troop choices so don't skimp them just to get another Hammerhead or Broadside. Most importantly, play games with your Tau. Thats the only way it will all come together for you is through playing and experience.

Good luck.

Malchek
07-03-2009, 13:12
I won 4 games and lost 1 at my 1750 X legion Tournament with the following Tau list:

HQ: shaes'el, mt, mp, pr, bk, 2 x marker drones

HQ: shaes'el, mt, mp, pr, bk, 2 x marker drones

- 2 x bodyguards, mt, targetting arrays, mp, PR - 2 x shield drones

3 x xv8, mt's, mp's, pr's, team leader with targetting array, 2 x shield drones

8 x fire warriors, tl with bk

devilfish, sms, multi tracker, targetting array disruption pods

8 x fire warriors, tl with bk

devilfish, sms, multi tracker, targetting array disruption pods

hammerhead, sms, muti tracker, sms, disruption pod

hammerhead, sms, muti tracker, sms, disruption pod

hammerhead, sms, muti tracker, sms, disruption pod


It's easily cut down to 1500pts you just lose a hammerhead and skim elsewhere.

A poorly designed or played Tau army will surely get skinned alive - if you've got the right elements and play it right it can be devestating against all comers!

Marker drones are fantastic - increase your BS or take away cover saves - if you take the bodyguard unit 1 marker drone markerlight hit causes them and the attached commander to all hit on +2...... cover saves are annoying - take them away and watch the enemy die....

Missile pods kill light vehicles with ease (especially when you're hitting at BS5 and the enemy aren't getting cover saves) Railguns kill any tank easy,

I don't usually use the fw's in the df as offensive weapons - sure they can do when the time is right but in objective based games their job is to survive - fish of fury isn't that effective unless of course your marker drones are making those firewarriors hit on +2's ;)

Disruption pods give you a cover save against all long range firepower, you have mobility and firepower.

The key thing is marker drones and marker lights in general make your units far more than what they otherwise are - they become super units capable of amazing feats - learn to use this and you can beat anyone....

Close combat is not easy to get into with a force like this because it's so mobile - if you line up troops on the tabletop - expect them to get eaten in cc but if your opponent can't get to grips with you there's little risk.....

Tau aren't an easy army to use but they're not underpowered and in the right hands they can be devestating - try some different things and see how you do

hope this helps

Mal ;)

Captain Micha
07-03-2009, 13:31
Got any suggestions for the Non Suit Tau player?

(Let's turn this thread into something constructive)

I've got like no suits at all aside from 6 stealth suits. (Though I might get some Suits for my birthday. and of course they will be Fire Knife equipped)

What I have instead are Finders with Rail Rifles (three to be exact and three that don't have them)

I have some "vespid".

If you are without suits are piranha worth having? Every game I've used them in so far they seem to have been decent fire soaks but not much in the punch department. (Two of them have fusion guns)

I suggest, focus firing whenever possible with a mech tau list or just in general. Keep moving, isolate bits of his army. Also remember there is no sweeping advance now! (something I had been forgetting, neither of my primary armies are good in the assault phase so I didn't know this critical fact!)

I definitely wouldn't Gunline, unless you have like 6-9 Broad sides or something though.

Malchek
07-03-2009, 13:44
It's only my opinion but I don't think Tau can be competitive without suits - that's where you get the majority of your firepower from.... If no gunline (which I think is a bad idea anyway) then your only other choice is to go vehicle heavy - 3 hammerheads and as many firewarriors in devilfish as you can afford - the only problem being there that you don't have all the tools you will need without the suits (anti light vehcile firepower - sure railguns are great against vehicles but not so great against skimmers especially wave serpants!) Then it's just a case of overwhelm part of the enemy's army with your mobile forces - rinse and repeat.....

Tau without suits though is just asking for trouble imo!

Mal ;)

Captain Micha
07-03-2009, 13:50
That's what I was starting to figure on 3 Hammers. Two with Rail Heads one Ion.

(Rails with Smart missiles Ion with burst cannons)

So far it's been rather lack luster the list seemed to work fine till about turn 4 and then vehicles started going down. I think I can pull it off though, the rail rifles give some great anti smurf fire especially when coupled with marker lights. I might ditch the piranha for another team of Pathfinders with Rifles in the future.

Right now the Piranha are staying because they are fast enough to easily keep up with enemy vehicles. They are going to give me my anti Light Vehicle /Anti Terminator Fire support.

the other Tau player runs with suits, and his list is more effective in some ways than mine. (he's got Sides instead of hammerheads though which is were the difference I think really comes in)

The vespid also help when dealing against infantry. (Make sure they end their move nestled in cover!) My biggest issue right now is with light to medium vehicles but that also might be due to playing at the 1k level where I don't have access to my Hammerheads. I've also got some "kroot oxes" that I plan on fielding to deal with the light weight vehicle probs. (using the "kroot" squad as a pivoting point for my "wheel" of movement) I tend to field models that I think are aesthetically pleasing more so than for sheer effectiveness. I feel that Crisis suits are on the ugly side of things (okay really ugly). So I'm searching for some alternatives.

Mojaco
07-03-2009, 16:55
The vespid also help when dealing against infantry. (Make sure they end their move nestled in cover!)
That causes dangerous terrain tests. Vespids are hard to keep alive if you don't want to give away cover saves, making them next to useless imo.

Creeping Dementia
07-03-2009, 18:06
For the original poster:

Going from the uber CC space vikings (Space wolves) to Tau is going to be a really tough transition. Tau suck in CC. Well not only that, they are nearly non-existant in CC. You'll save yourself a lot of hurt if you get it into your head right now that the only use you have for the entire CC is you jetpack moves. Once you are into that state of mind you can start building on more divergent occasional CC tactics that may catch you opponent off guard.

Tau are known for their shooting. But, the experienced and smart Tau players will almost all tell you the same thing. Tau win games in the movement phase. Which is why Eldar can be so tough, they do it better than us. Unless you have some weird master plan with several tricks up your sleeve, then you either need to be Mechanized or a Hybrid (small static lure with a larger fast hard hitting portion) in order not fold up every time you face a CC army.

Cover saves, ya they can suck. But there is a solution that I've found makes Tau more flexable against all types of armies. Ditch the expensive, low AP stuff, and take weapons that have a higher rate of fire instead. The idea is to force your opponent to make more saves, rather than spend more points to ignore their saves. I haven't taken a Plasma rifle since 5th edition came out, and I have only regretted it once. Sure Marines get cover saves, but my Firewarriors don't care, they don't penetrate their armor anyway. I also have a larger amount of firepower with all the points I save on not taking Plasma and fusion on my battlesuits, so orks and Nids aren't a problem either.

I lay out a couple guidelines to a generally successful Tau army, from my experience.
There are 3 levels of weaponry you really need:
Heavy anti-tank; Railguns, 2 is a minimum in my book, and if you only take 2 make sure you have several Fusion guns that can get to targets as a back up (Fusion piranha or DS Fusion Crisis)
Light tank-MC; Missile pods, for the price these are some of the best weapons we have, and they fulfill a key role for Tau, popping transports to make sure you have the advantage when it comes to mobility. Take at least 4 pods, preferably TL.
Strength 5: Basically everything else. Firewarriors and Burst cannons are the big donators here. Just make sure you have a lot of it, and focus it onto a couple units at a time. Its cheap, and some of the best basic weaponry out there.

After mobility these are what I make sure to include in my armies, everything after that is just gravy.

Post up your army list in the Army list forum and we'll take a look at it and try to give you some pointers and more specific tactical advice.

Creeping Dementia
07-03-2009, 18:08
That causes dangerous terrain tests. Vespids are hard to keep alive if you don't want to give away cover saves, making them next to useless imo.

Vespid get to reroll failed dangerous terrain checks, thats why you always land them in cover. Vespid still suck though, they just don't have a good use for their cost and lack of survivability.

WildWeasel
07-03-2009, 18:35
Part of the point of any game is to have fun. That can be hard to do when you're walking in at a decided disadvantage. Yes, Tau were never a CC army, but the current ruleset makes that lack paticularly harsh.

It's one thing to chose to play at a disadvantage for a particular game or with a specific list. It's quite another to have the disadvantage built right into the rules and codex.

slingersam
07-03-2009, 18:53
Devil fishes are what you need. Tau are not a gun line army
they are a mobile army. Thats one of the misconceptions
of tau. Tau are an ok Tau gun line but they can get decimated
once CC hits you. Remember their is infiltration, deepstriking, and
run. So in 5th edition you have to be really mobile.

IAMNOTHERE
07-03-2009, 19:13
How are people finding Vespids that can now deepstrike? Are they too expensive or can this be made to work?

I think that a couple of cheep squads of out flanking kroot could also help, arn't they troop units?

the1stpip
07-03-2009, 21:31
5th ed is not CC based.

Back in 4th, my Wyches rocked. Get them into combat with pretty much anything, and you couldn't shift them.

Now, I can't consolidate into combat with them, meaning they get blown to pieces.

Th game is still fairly well balanced.

volair
07-03-2009, 21:34
Pay no attention to the non-Tau player giving advice on how to play Tau. It is very possible to win without Hammerheads, you don't have to run maxed-out Crisis Teams, and vehicle-mounted drones are anything but a drawback in 2/3rds of all games.

Of course it is possible to win without hammerheads, if your opponents are that bad, but I still want to help him make an army that can compete against other people who know how to make a good army list. If you don't take hammerheads, then you are indubitably and unconditionally lowering the effectiveness of your army. The result is that when you go up against people that know their codex well and which units are effective and which are overcosted, you will be at a disadvantage without the hammerheads. When you want to win, you take three of them with railguns, it is that simple.

As for the drones giving off killpoints, indeed it is irrelevent in 2/3s of your games, but nobody wants to make an army that has a 1/3 chance of automatically losing based on a single dice roll before the game even starts.

Creeping Dementia
07-03-2009, 21:49
How are people finding Vespids that can now deepstrike? Are they too expensive or can this be made to work?

I think that a couple of cheep squads of out flanking kroot could also help, arn't they troop units?

Their a fast attack choice, so they cut into your pathfinders and Piranha. Can they be "made" to work? sure. But why would you want to put a ton of thought and effort and points into getting a lousey unit to work, when you have cheaper, more efficient, and more survivable choices.

I've only seen them sort of work when there are like 3 other units helping them get into position, survive and finish off units they go after. And usually those 3 units can be doing something better than babysitting those giant wasps.

As for the whole CC thing, I've found that CC is less effective against me in 5th than it was in 4th. Running up units or drones to absorb a potentially deadly assault works wonders, and so long as you avoid multiple assaults and assume you'll always lose, CC hasn't been a big issue.

genesis873
07-03-2009, 23:11
I had a friend who deep struck a large unit of vespid right next to a large unit of assault marines who were out of cover (wasnt much low ap stuff nearby so I thought they would be alright), markerlighted them and killed did alot of damage. Enough so that they were easily finished off. As mainly a tau player taking out assault units like that is nice, but it's risky (I think he used a pathfinder devilfish to help though) and helios probably could have had a simliliar effect. They have there uses still, but i don't find them very useful for the cost. I really hope they get a buff next codex though cause I like the models. Not bad for objective denying in small games though.

Znail
07-03-2009, 23:55
Vespids are decent as a large unit. It makes for good use of markerlights against MEQ as it will basicly finnish of a unit outside of cover. There are easier to use units, but if they fit in with your army and tactics then they will do fine.

Dangersaurus
08-03-2009, 01:14
Of course it is possible to win without hammerheads, if your opponents are that bad, but I still want to help him make an army that can compete against other people who know how to make a good army list. If you don't take hammerheads, then you are indubitably and unconditionally lowering the effectiveness of your army. The result is that when you go up against people that know their codex well and which units are effective and which are overcosted, you will be at a disadvantage without the hammerheads. When you want to win, you take three of them with railguns, it is that simple.

As for the drones giving off killpoints, indeed it is irrelevent in 2/3s of your games, but nobody wants to make an army that has a 1/3 chance of automatically losing based on a single dice roll before the game even starts.

You're going purely on regurgitated internet opinion. It's obvious you don't play Tau (or if you do, I want to know what sort of Tau player doesn't know what his upgrade options are on Fish/Heads), so you don't KNOW any of this. There's no automatic loss for not using three Hammerheads.

I love railheads, especially a single one in low-point games, but their role can be covered by other units quite handily. Against Nob/Biker Nob spam, for example, you're better setting up your lure (Kroot worked well for me last game, but FW with carbines are nice & mobile too) to bring them into range of your suits and FW teams.

I imagine if you live in Land Raider territory, where every army has three, then it might be different. Around here the big threats are Orks and Tyranids (and Dark Eldar, oddly enough). There are other armies to be sure, but AV14 is a lot rarer than multi-wound units where plasma rifles, SMS, missile pods, fusion blasters and the "lowly" pulse rifle really shine.

As for drones, vehicle-mounted drones are so good at soaking up shots and assaults that I don't mind the kill point thing much at all... in non-KP missions they are SO good the KP thing is almost a sort of apology.

Besides, you can just take 3 Hammerheads and annihilate the enemy every time, so KP don't matter :rolleyes::angel::rolleyes:

volair
08-03-2009, 01:21
You're going purely on regurgitated internet opinion. It's obvious you don't play Tau (or if you do, I want to know what sort of Tau player doesn't know what his upgrade options are on Fish/Heads), so you don't KNOW any of this. There's no automatic loss for not using three Hammerheads.

I love railheads, especially a single one in low-point games, but their role can be covered by other units quite handily. Against Nob/Biker Nob spam, for example, you're better setting up your lure (Kroot worked well for me last game, but FW with carbines are nice & mobile too) to bring them into range of your suits and FW teams.

I imagine if you live in Land Raider territory, where every army has three, then it might be different. Around here the big threats are Orks and Tyranids (and Dark Eldar, oddly enough). There are other armies to be sure, but AV14 is a lot rarer than multi-wound units where plasma rifles, SMS, missile pods, fusion blasters and the "lowly" pulse rifle really shine.

As for drones, vehicle-mounted drones are so good at soaking up shots and assaults that I don't mind the kill point thing much at all... in non-KP missions they are SO good the KP thing is almost a sort of apology.

Besides, you can just take 3 Hammerheads and annihilate the enemy every time, so KP don't matter :rolleyes::angel::rolleyes:

That closing line is a cute, sarcastic mockery of my post, but it also shows that you didn't take the time to properly consider it, because if you did you would have comprehended that I believe that Tau basically can't annihilate the enemy and must win by keeping their units alive (victory point denial or late objective taking and contesting), and you also would have comprehended that I consider the fact that drones give away kill points to be a serious disadvantage with severe consequences in kill point games.

Dangersaurus
08-03-2009, 01:50
That closing line is a cute, sarcastic mockery of my post, but it also shows that you didn't take the time to properly consider it, because if you did you would have comprehended that I believe that Tau basically can't annihilate the enemy and must win by keeping their units alive (victory point denial or late objective taking and contesting), and you also would have comprehended that I consider the fact that drones give away kill points to be a serious disadvantage with severe consequences in kill point games.

So how does taking 5-600 points of tank contribute to victory point denial or late-game objective taking? I don't mind waiting while you use the search engine to formulate an answer.

My take? You don't win the game by just staying alive, you win by taking chances and achieving objectives. Tau are not for the timid.

IAMNOTHERE
08-03-2009, 10:42
Those 2 gun drones on fish... they be troop units and scoring in the other 2 missions you apparently can't win with the roll of a single dice roll before the game.

But if they worry you you can upgrade to sms and avoid the issue entirely.

I'm not surprised thay vespid die quickly after they arrive, just like drop guard plasma, MEQ players have a knee jerk reaction to them - which you can use to protect a more valuble (scoring) unit.

volair
08-03-2009, 15:13
So how does taking 5-600 points of tank contribute to victory point denial or late-game objective taking? I don't mind waiting while you use the search engine to formulate an answer.

My take? You don't win the game by just staying alive, you win by taking chances and achieving objectives. Tau are not for the timid.

You don't think that three armor 13 skimmer tanks that always have a cover save, from weapons firing a foot away or more, and can fire from up to 6 feet away are good at kill point denial? Besides being very hard to kill, they can also usually get a few kill points off of the enemies vehicles and with their large blast fire they are pretty good against infantry too. They are the best unit Tau have in kill point games, and depending on the enemy army they are sometimes great for contesting objectives too.

volair
08-03-2009, 15:19
You're going purely on regurgitated internet opinion. It's obvious you don't play Tau (or if you do, I want to know what sort of Tau player doesn't know what his upgrade options are on Fish/Heads), so you don't KNOW any of this. There's no automatic loss for not using three Hammerheads.

I love railheads, especially a single one in low-point games, but their role can be covered by other units quite handily. Against Nob/Biker Nob spam, for example, you're better setting up your lure (Kroot worked well for me last game, but FW with carbines are nice & mobile too) to bring them into range of your suits and FW teams.

I imagine if you live in Land Raider territory, where every army has three, then it might be different. Around here the big threats are Orks and Tyranids (and Dark Eldar, oddly enough). There are other armies to be sure, but AV14 is a lot rarer than multi-wound units where plasma rifles, SMS, missile pods, fusion blasters and the "lowly" pulse rifle really shine.

As for drones, vehicle-mounted drones are so good at soaking up shots and assaults that I don't mind the kill point thing much at all... in non-KP missions they are SO good the KP thing is almost a sort of apology.


I assure you that my opinion is my own. And railguns are incredibly versatile; they are good for lots of things, not just destroying armor 14 tanks. They are good at killing any vehicle in the game period, and are pretty good against infantry too with their large blast at strength 6, ap 4.

About the drones, you cannot ignore that they give off extra kill points. It is a huge disadvantage in 1/3 of all games you play.

fluffstalker
08-03-2009, 15:33
Agreed. Its a real big liability, and if you do roll objectives the drones are very very easy to put down: the advantages of them being a scoring unit are outweighed by the disadvantages of them giving up KPs.

I much prefer Railheads also even against Orcs and Nids. S10 rounds guided by markerlights can do damage against MCs, while the submunitions round is all round fantastic.

I dont think Volair is trying to say they cant win without tanks. They can. I think hes simply emphasizing, candidly, that mech tau is the optimal build. Build them however you like, but really if your going for a purely competitive list theres no reason to not take three heads every game.

Dangersaurus
08-03-2009, 21:10
Agreed. Its a real big liability, and if you do roll objectives the drones are very very easy to put down: the advantages of them being a scoring unit are outweighed by the disadvantages of them giving up KPs.
It doesn't matter how easy or how hard they are to put down. The enemy has to waste at least an entire round of shooting or assault to do that. They are fragile, yes, but the role of lure doesn't require them to be strong, just tempting.


I much prefer Railheads also even against Orcs and Nids. S10 rounds guided by markerlights can do damage against MCs, while the submunitions round is all round fantastic.
There's nothing wrong with your choice here. I don't agree on using it over other weapons against hordes, but mounting a SMS will make up for it somewhat. As I said, there are better weapons against the local metagame. Maybe you fight more opponents that can be instakilled by the rail, or multiwound units that haven't been cheesed out for allocation.


I dont think Volair is trying to say they cant win without tanks.
Whuh? He's absolutely trying to say that:


Tau can win in 5th edition, but there is only one way you can play the army. You have to take 3 hammerheads with railguns, and then you take full units of crisis suits with the stength 7 guns for destroying transports, and fire warriors in devilfishes.

I'm just telling you the facts that it is the only Tau army that can win.

When you want to win, you take three of them with railguns, it is that simple.

Sounds to me like he's trying to say Mech Tau are the only viable list. I'm just picking on the silliest point.

volair
09-03-2009, 03:27
You don't think it is a huge disadvantage that the drones give off very easy kill points? And please, why are you bringing up silly "luring" tactics. They are a theoretical construct in your mind that does not actually manifest in real games.

The Orange
09-03-2009, 05:01
Its been said that Tau do have a steep learning curve, so get climbing or boot them onto ebay. Its your choice. Tau are still quite playable,however, anyone saying 5th edition didn't hurt Tau is kidding themselves. Anyone saying the game isn't heavily geared towards close combat is kidding themselves too. 40k has always been heavily geared towards cc. Every army either has their own form of close combat units, or has ways to stick it though (expect for Tau obviously), so most armies don't get to see the worst of it like we do. There's always been a lot of advantages to going with cc, outnumbering boosting negative leadership modifiers (while the max shooting got was a -1), getting to make attacks in each players turn (while you have to wait for your turn to shoot), the ability to sweeping advance (while with shooting you have to actually wound each and every model), the extra movement gained from assaulting and destroying units (assault move m+ consolidation = faster moving across the table), and lets not forget the ability to avoid reprisals if a unit manages to destroy the enemy in the enemies player turn (because guess who's turn it is then, and guess who lost their chance for a shooting reprisal).

Yea cutting out the consolidation helps but IMO that's because consolidation was a pretty broken mechanic to begin with. You ever hear about the BA assault squad that charged an IG unit on one side of the table and ended up on the other side of the table wiping out all the IG in between? I don't care what anyone says, you can say it's the IG players fault for not spreading out their units but honestly it wasn't really good generalship that won that game. It was just that one player could exploit a rule while the other was nearly powerless to avoid it.

And you need to watch out for those backseat generals who think everything that looks good on paper translates to the game "Tau Fire Warriors killing SM easily" "kroot are you godsend answer to everything cc" "railguns will cover everything" pleaze :rolleyes:. Their good, but not that good, people tend to exaggerate. MEQ's are still ungodly resilient thanks to their armor save, kroot are still more of a stop gap shooting unit then an assault unit (just wait till you see 3 marines sweeping advance 15 kroot because guess who managed to cause more wounds), and railguns while good are single shot and not plentiful. Only Tau players who play Tau know how well Tau really play. That why the army with the best basic guns (on paper) is running mobile and not static gun line, because experienced Tau players know from experience that what looked good on paper didn't really work out on the table.

Dangersaurus
09-03-2009, 05:39
Well said. I've avoided both editions between 2nd and 5th, so I can't speak to their loss of power in 5th, but they seem very competitive to me currently, from combat patrols, to small armies with no mech, to medium armies with combined arms to large battles with a little bit of everything (well, everything but Vespid)

Iceheart2112
09-03-2009, 05:51
Orange said it better than I could. I've been playing Tau now for 5 years and I'm still tweaking things. Railheads aren't the end-all, be-all of the Tau. I rely more on my Devilfish than I do my Hammerheads. And you show me a 3 Railhead list, and I'll show you 3 dead Railheads. Broadside Team getting a couple of railgun hits, Pathfinders negate the cover save, Helios/Sunforge deepstriking in (and landing where I want them most of the time with the Marker Beacon) and tapping the side/rear of the tank. They're more fragile than you'd think. And with a 1500 pt list with 3 railheads, you're using up around a 1/3 of your points.

On drones, yes they're easy KP...but in non-victory point missions who's going to shoot them? And even then, using them as a suicide/sacrificial unit to make sure that something stays out in the open is a pretty good option to have available. Me and my buds still laugh at the time a single DF drone managed to contest an objective for 3 turns, letting me win the game (this is a extraordinary case, to be sure, but it still happened).

Dyrnwyn
09-03-2009, 10:53
You don't have to take any specific army build to win with Tau in 5th ed, but you'll spend some time learning what units are pants and what battlesuit weapons are best for your playstyle. I played Hybrid lists all through 4th, and continue to do do alright with them in 5th. 3 Hammerheads are nice, but coming up against a 3 Wraithlord/Avatar list or Godzilla Nids or a C'tan can stymie them. They just don't put out enough shots. Plus, with all your serious anti-tank in platforms that can be shut down on a glance, you may not get to return fire. Broadsides can always fire back if they're not in assault, and deal with Monstrous creatures alot better. A unit of Broadsides also makes for a good anchor to a firebase if you don't bother to mechanize your troops like I do.

volair
09-03-2009, 14:38
You don't have to take any specific army build to win with Tau in 5th ed, but you'll spend some time learning what units are pants and what battlesuit weapons are best for your playstyle. I played Hybrid lists all through 4th, and continue to do do alright with them in 5th. 3 Hammerheads are nice, but coming up against a 3 Wraithlord/Avatar list or Godzilla Nids or a C'tan can stymie them. They just don't put out enough shots. Plus, with all your serious anti-tank in platforms that can be shut down on a glance, you may not get to return fire. Broadsides can always fire back if they're not in assault, and deal with Monstrous creatures alot better. A unit of Broadsides also makes for a good anchor to a firebase if you don't bother to mechanize your troops like I do.

Or you could be smart and use your crisis suits and fire warriors to kill monstrous creatures, which they are good at, and use the large blast templates from the hammerheads at the genestealers, rippers, and/or gaunts.

Seriously, take my word for it; take two units of fire warriors in devilfishes, max out on hammerheads, spend the rest on crisis suit teams and crisis suit leaders with missle pods and plasma rifles, give your crisis suit leaders marker drones, and you will win more.

The Orange
09-03-2009, 16:00
Or you could be smart and use your crisis suits and fire warriors to kill monstrous creatures

That really depends on the monstrous creature. The tougher they are, the better it is to go with the Broadside to deal with them. With a broadside your spending 70-90 pts for a pretty much guaranteed 2+ to wound and negated armor save, and you also have the range on your side. Using FWs against anything T5 and a 4+ save IMO is probably wasting their shooting. Crisis suits only have 3 weapons that really count, the PR has the AP but not really the strength and that load out tends to cost in the 50-60+ pts, Missile pods have the strength but not really the AP for anything with a 3+ save, they can be a bit cheaper but not by much, and Fusion blasters are the only weapon with both the strenght and AP but their short range (not the best idea against multi wound MCs). So I don't really agree that using the massed fire of your entire army to make up for the penetrative force of a railgun really is a great idea.

Captain Micha
09-03-2009, 16:08
How are people finding Vespids that can now deepstrike? Are they too expensive or can this be made to work?

I think that a couple of cheep squads of out flanking kroot could also help, arn't they troop units?

I imagine they will be much better. I'm going to be using them in my next Tau game to see what it will be like.

Deepstrike being awesome (or just my luck with it at least) probably will help them considerably. DS in, fire a fusilade into a squad & get away.

Coupled with Markers they do fairly well for themselves (I always have four markers at least in my army) I am possibly going to use them to supplement my Kroot firepower, and to make the Kroot seem abit more important for Lure purposes.

Also Broadsides I generally consider to be a superior unit to Crisis or Hammerheads especially vs monstrous creatures. Three Twin Linked Str 10 BS3 Ap1 shots from a single squad? Yes please! Especially when coupled with multitrackers so you can use smarts or plasma. I have yet to see an MC that lives through a full salvo of Broadside fire. Where as the Crisis teams not only is there a good chance of just that happening but they also cause you to waste your precious Crisis fire on things they might not wound efficiently (or at all for that matter). If you have two squads of them it gets even -more- devastating. And once the Mcs are dead you can start using the Railguns to take out squads. Where as with Crisis fire you are probably going to spend the whole game trying to down the Mcs and having the rest of your army get it handed to them since they lack the Mid Range and Mid Str firepower without the Crisis Support.

volair
09-03-2009, 16:21
Both crisis suits and fire warriors have more efficient firepower than broadsides against monstrous creatures. You need to recheck your math. Try normalizing to a set amount of points for comparison. I normalize to 500 points but that is arbitrary.

Also I think that vespids are a terrible unit and should never be used under any circumstances.

Captain Micha
09-03-2009, 16:25
Both crisis suits and fire warriors have more efficient firepower than broadsides against monstrous creatures. You need to recheck your math. Try normalizing to a set amount of points for comparison.

196 pts of Fireknife versus 225.

Fireknife doesn't wound nearly as often, leaves two armor saves on the table (and with the stronger shot no less).

Broadside for less than 30 points more you have a squad that pretty much Auto Pastes even the big nasties like Wraithlords and Fexes in one round of shooting. (this isn't counting the Smart Missile fire!) Where as Fireknife it -will- take at least two turns minimum. You -won't- be wounding on a 2+ and they are once again gauranteed two armor saves per crisis.

Each Side is the equivalent to Four Firewarriors with the Smart Missiles, so you also have effectively 12 fire warriors pouring shots into the target in addition to the Railgun volleys.

Broadsides are much much better than -even tag teamed Crisis and FW especially for a point cost. Crisis doesn't compete at all for this.

volair
09-03-2009, 16:28
196 pts of Fireknife versus 225.

Fireknife doesn't wound nearly as often, leaves two armor saves on the table (and with the stronger shot no less).

Broadside for less than 30 points more you have a squad that pretty much Auto Pastes even the big nasties like Wraithlords and Fexes in one round of shooting. (this isn't counting the Smart Missile fire!) Where as Fireknife it -will- take at least two turns minimum. You -won't- be wounding on a 2+ and they are once again gauranteed two armor saves per crisis.

Each Side is the equivalent to Four Firewarriors with the Smart Missiles, so you also have effectively 12 fire warriors pouring shots into the target in addition to the Railgun volleys.

Broadsides are much much better than -even tag teamed Crisis and FW especially for a point cost. Crisis doesn't compete at all for this.

You need a proper, mathematical approach when comparing efficiency. Your excessive hand waving results in a very bad estimation.

Captain Micha
09-03-2009, 16:32
You need a proper, mathematical approach when comparing efficiency. Your excessive hand waving results in a very bad estimation.

And you obviously haven't actually used Crisis suits or broadsides against monstrous creatures.

My math isn't off. Twinlinked Ap1 Str 10 with 72" range is far better than the best Crisis suit lay out against Mcs. You -start the game- being able to shoot Mcs. Where as the Crisis you might not even get that opportunity until turn 2 or 3. I will have already pasted one MC by the time the crisis get to open up.

I will have pasted at least one more for every one that Crisis kills. Even if the gap some how does not increase which it should by the way thanks to the Smarts, and the fact that Str10 ap1 means +2 wounds, and rerolled misses mean that it's effectively like being BS5 or 6. Where as the Crisis suits get no rerolls wound on far worse rolls, oh and again Armor Saves.

Also once you take into account that it has been -proven- that Gw and Chessex Dice roll lower more often than they roll higher it affects the "math hammer" which makes the 'Sides even better for the job.

Dyrnwyn
10-03-2009, 00:20
Advance warning: this post is going to be math-heavy

Or you could be smart and use your crisis suits and fire warriors to kill monstrous creatures, which they are good at, and use the large blast templates from the hammerheads at the genestealers, rippers, and/or gaunts.

Seriously, take my word for it; take two units of fire warriors in devilfishes, max out on hammerheads, spend the rest on crisis suit teams and crisis suit leaders with missle pods and plasma rifles, give your crisis suit leaders marker drones, and you will win more.
See, in your list you have to throw your Crisis and Fire Warriors at MC's, because Railheads are too inefficient at that task. That doesn't mean Crisis and FW's are better than Broadsides at Monstrous Creature hunting.


You need a proper, mathematical approach when comparing efficiency. Your excessive hand waving results in a very bad estimation.
Lets do the math rather than just talk about it then.

I pay about 91 points per XV88, 93 if I feel like I want round numbers. For this I get Targeting Arrays, two Shield Drones and a Multi-tracker or Target Lock if I like round numbers. Lets say I like round numbers for the sake of comparing points. 280 points of Fire Warriors vs. 280 points of Broadsides against various targets.

Vs. Base Carnifex
Broadsides:
~.89 to hit * 3 = 2.67 hits
2.67 hits * .84 to wound = 2.24 wounds, no armor save.
Fire Warriors:
.5 to hit * 28 = 14 hits
14 hits * .33 to wound = 4.66 wounds
4.66 wounds * .33 failed armor = 1.5 wounds

Vs. Carnifex w/Extended Carapace & Reinforced Chitin
Broadsides:
~.89 to hit * 3 = 2.67 hits
2.67 hits * .84 to wound = 2.24 wounds, no armor save.
Fire Warriors:
.5 to hit * 28 = 14 hits
14 hits * .16 to wound = 2.24 wounds
2.24 wounds * .16 failed armor = 0.36 wounds

Vs. Wraithlord
Broadsides:
~.89 to hit * 3 = 2.67 hits
2.67 hits * .84 to wound = 2.24 wounds, no armor save.
Fire Warriors:
.5 to hit * 28 = 14 hits
14 hits * .16 to wound = 2.24 wounds
2.24 wounds * .33 failed armor = 0.74 wounds

Vs. C'tan
Broadsides:
~.89 to hit * 3 = 2.67 hits
2.67 hits * .84 to wound = 2.24 wounds
2.24 wounds * .5 failed invul = 1.12 wounds
Fire Warriors:
.5 to hit * 28 = 14 hits
14 hits * .16 to wound = 2.24 wounds
2.24 wounds * .5 failed armor = 1.12 wounds

I won't bother to calculate rapid fire because all you have to do is double the end wounds result, but if you're double-tapping an MC with Fire Warriors, the situation is pretty dire. Regardless, in ever instance but the C'tan the Broadsides are outright better, and even in the case of the C'tan, the Fire Warriors are no better unless double-tapping. And this is before considering that we are conveniently ignoring that 28 Fire Warriors are a nonsensical setup. You wouldn't see 28 Fire Warriors on the table. You'll see 12 Fire Warriors with a Shas'ui, and a Devilfish with some upgrades, or 24 Fire Warriors with Shas'ui and a Markerlight. On top of that, the Broadsides are weighted down with defensive upgrades while the Fire Warriors in this calculation are purely specced for dakka. Oh, and of course, lets not forget that the Broadsides outrange the Fire Warriors by 42". Either way, the numbers only get worse for the Fire Warriors.

How about Crisis Suits? Fire Knives and Helios Suits are the MC killers, right? They won't fit neatly into 280 points, but lets get as close as possible. 4 Helios or Fire Knife suits are 248 points. We'll drop all upgrades except Targeting Arrays from the aforementioned Broadsides to try and equalize points; 248 points of Helios vs 248 points of Fire Knife suits vs. 240 points of Broadsides.

Vs. Base Carnifex
Broadsides:
~.89 to hit * 3 = 2.67 hits
2.67 hits * .84 to wound = 2.24 wounds, no save.
~2.24 wounds total
Fire Knives:
.5 to hit * 4 = 2 plasma hits
.5 to hit * 8 = 4 missile hits
2 plasma * .5 to wound = 1 wounds, no save
4 missile * .66 to wound = 2.64 wounds
2.64 wounds * .33 failed armor = .87 wounds
~1.87 wounds total.
Helios: (at 12")
.5 to hit * 8 = 4 plasma hits
.5 to hit * 4 = 2 fusion hits
4 plasma * .5 to wound = 2 wounds, no save
2 fusion * .84 to wound = 1.68 wounds, no save
~3.68 wounds total

Vs. Carnifex w/Extended Carapace & Reinforced Chitin
Broadsides:
~.89 to hit * 3 = 2.67 hits
2.67 hits * .84 to wound = 2.24 wounds, no save.
~2.24 wounds total
Fire Knives:
.5 to hit * 4 = 2 plasma hits
.5 to hit * 8 = 4 missile hits
2 plasma * .33 to wound = .66 wounds, no save
4 missile * .5 to wound = 2 wounds
2 wounds * .16 failed armor = .32 wounds
~.98 wounds total.
Helios: (at 12")
.5 to hit * 8 = 4 plasma hits
.5 to hit * 4 = 2 fusion hits
4 plasma * .33 to wound = 1.32 wounds, no save
2 fusion * .84 to wound = 1.68 wounds, no save
~3 wounds total

Vs. Wraithlord
Broadsides:
~.89 to hit * 3 = 2.67 hits
2.67 hits * .84 to wound = 2.24 wounds, no save.
~2.24 wounds total
Fire Knives:
.5 to hit * 4 = 2 plasma hits
.5 to hit * 8 = 4 missile hits
2 plasma * .16 to wound = .32 wounds, no save
4 missile * .33 to wound = 1.32 wounds
1.32 wounds * .33 failed armor = .43 wounds
~.75 wounds total.
Helios: (at 12")
.5 to hit * 8 = 4 plasma hits
.5 to hit * 4 = 2 fusion hits
4 plasma * .16 to wound = 0.64 wounds, no save
2 fusion * .66 to wound = 1.32 wounds, no save
~1.96 wounds total

Vs. C'tan
Broadsides:
~.89 to hit * 3 = 2.67 hits
2.67 hits * .84 to wound = 2.24 wounds
2.24 wounds * .5 failed invul = 1.12 wounds
~1.12 wounds total
Fire Knives:
.5 to hit * 4 = 2 plasma hits
.5 to hit * 8 = 4 missile hits
2 plasma * .16 to wound = .32 wounds
.32 wounds * .5 failed invul = .16 wounds
4 missile * .33 to wound = 1.32 wounds
1.32 wounds * .5 failed armor = .66 wounds
~.82 wounds total.
Helios: (at 12")
.5 to hit * 8 = 4 plasma hits
.5 to hit * 4 = 2 fusion hits
4 plasma * .16 to wound = .64 wounds
.64 wounds * .5 failed invul = .32 wounds
2 fusion * .5 to wound = 1 wound
1 wound * .5 failed invul = .5 wounds
~.82 wounds total

So, Crisis suits don't really outperform Broadsides either. Fire Knives are all-rounders, so it's no surprise that they do worse in every area except against the one opponent that just needs more dakka thrown at it (C'tan). The Helios looks better on paper; 3 wounds vs even the toughest Carnifex! But remember, the Helios has to close to 12" in order to do that. Beyond 12", it's plinking away with one plasma shot per suit and it's doing nothing at over 24." The Broadsides can engage from Turn 1, Helios suits will be waiting til Turn 3 to be firing at full effect. By Turn 3, the Broadsides will have already killed a Carnifex.

Now that that the whole 'Crisis and Fire Warriors are better at Killing MC's' nonsense is out of the way, lets look at your other assertions. You say 3 Railheads are best, presumably because they have mobility, a 4+ mobile cover save, and the versatility of a variable solid/submunition shot. Those are all good reasons to take a Hammerhead, but maxing out on them has done nothing but lose me games, not win them. With three Hammerheads, most of your serious anti-tank is going to be tied up in armored platforms. Which on one hand is good because it makes them mobile. However, even a single glance will stop you from firing. Statistically, 2 glances will stop a Hammerhead with a Disruption Pod from firing. Come up against a drop Guard or drop pod player with decent dropping AT fire, an enemy with lots of autocannon equivalents, or just any enemy with melta-guns or fast powerfists that will ignore your cover save, and your tanks are going to be in trouble.

Lets not forget that the 2+/4+ invuln that you can get on Broadside Shield Drones is extremely survivable, more so than tanks generally, are, and you won't have to worry about your Broadsides being shaken. On top of that, with the new Assault rules, Broadsides are actually more likely to win assaults against fast but weak tarpit units like gaunts.

If your local metagame features lots of Horde armies or armies with not very much anti-tank firepower, more power to you that your 3 Railhead list does well. However, it is not the be-all, end-all of Tau lists, nor does it guarantee wins in all or even most situations.

volair
10-03-2009, 01:55
Your math is horribly wrong. Crisis suits are significantly better than broadsides against monstrous creatures.

Dyrnwyn
10-03-2009, 03:04
Your math is horribly wrong. Crisis suits are significantly better than broadsides against monstrous creatures.

Really now? Did you even read my post? I did the math. Broadsides are better. If my math is wrong, you're going to have to show HOW it's wrong, and show your work on how you came to the conclusion that Crisis suits are better. Simply coming back at my post with 'Your math is wrong, I'm still right' doesn't do anything but make it seem like you're being obtuse.

The Orange
10-03-2009, 05:37
Dyrnwyn good job with the math. ;) Props for doing all the hard work


Your math is horribly wrong. Crisis suits are significantly better than broadsides against monstrous creatures.
:p wow what a swaying argument. If you've got calculations that prove otherwise, lets see them. :eyebrows: Exactly what MC's and which crisis suit loadouts are you using for your calculations?

Captain Micha
10-03-2009, 13:44
Your math is horribly wrong. Crisis suits are significantly better than broadsides against monstrous creatures.

Well bring out your math then oh great mathematician. The burden of proof is on you. The math as far as I can tell is right.

Ontop of this, I have practical experience on my side of this argument. I've played enough games with both Hammers and Suits (proxied), versus Sides and various other vehicles. Sides win this one hands down.

Unless of course you are just doing the magical T word, or perhaps you are a Nid player trying to get a possible advantage over a batch of opponents that you might not ever see in a game thinking that if you give out your bad and wrong advice it'll make winning easier for you.

The Mathhammerers proved your -hypothesis- wrong and there is someone with practical table top experience with the Tau telling you, that your hypothesis is horribly wrong.

Next you are going to be telling all of us that Kroot are better at shooting than the Firewarriors are, or that Tau are great in CC.

Lord Solar Plexus
10-03-2009, 14:30
Your math is horribly wrong. Crisis suits are significantly better than broadsides against monstrous creatures.

I'm really interested whether you can actually prove this assertion. It is generally considered good practice to provide some substance instead of arbitrary loudmouthing.

I suspect your statement is nothing but hot air and must confess that I find this most irritating, especially since it isn't the first time, volair.

volair
10-03-2009, 14:45
Well actually he isn't as far off as I initially thought. Indeed the plasma is only strength 6, I had thought it was 7 initially. However, I thought that broadsides have a 0.75 chance to hit, not 0.89. On the first roll they need a 4+ to hit, giving a 0.5 chance. So you pick up the dice that missed, 0.5 on average, and you need a 4+ on those dice too, giving you 0.25, which you add to the 0.5, for a total of 0.75. Is that wrong?

Inquisitor Quiznos
10-03-2009, 17:10
It's funny you should say this because I'm reading through the 5th ed book now and it seemed to me that the new rules favor shooting over close combat.

1) Now that we're back to true line of sight, you can't just hide a unit of assault troops with jump packs behind a stand of trees in the middle of the board first turn, and assault in the second. Since assault units need to be big in relation to shooty units, it can be hard to hide them and now that the rules for removing casualties no longer state that you must remove only casualties from within range and line of sight, if you can see one guy you can potentially kill the whole squad.

2) The way that wound allocation works it seems possible that you can actually lose wounds from shooting very easily if you have mixed units (like all battle suit units, fire warriors with gun drones, etc). Of course this a double edged sword but I think it hurts the assault units more since most assault units are fairly mono tasked (Khorne Berzerkers, Genestealers).

Of course these are just impressions of the rules. I haven't actually played 5th ed yet...

Dyrnwyn
10-03-2009, 19:28
Well actually he isn't as far off as I initially thought. Indeed the plasma is only strength 6, I had thought it was 7 initially. However, I thought that broadsides have a 0.75 chance to hit, not 0.89. On the first roll they need a 4+ to hit, giving a 0.5 chance. So you pick up the dice that missed, 0.5 on average, and you need a 4+ on those dice too, giving you 0.25, which you add to the 0.5, for a total of 0.75. Is that wrong?


I pay about 91 points per XV88, 93 if I feel like I want round numbers. For this I get Targeting Arrays, two Shield Drones and a Multi-tracker or Target Lock if I like round numbers. Lets say I like round numbers for the sake of comparing points. 280 points of Fire Warriors vs. 280 points of Broadsides against various targets.

I suppose I wasn't clear enough. I did the math for the configuration that I usually take Broadsides in: Targeting Arrays, Team Leader, HW-Drone Controller, 2 Shield Drones, Target Lock - 280 points. Targeting Arrays bump the to-hit percentage for the Railguns to .89. In the second round, vs Crisis Suits, all upgrades except the Targeting Arrays are dropped for points equality, but the upgrades are all defensive, so it doesn't affect the unit's shooting at all.

EDIT:
For the sake of completeness:
Broadsides without Targeting Arrays (I assume Stabilization, since it costs the same)
Against all targets but the C'tan:
.75 to hit * 3 shots = 2.25 hits
2.25 hits * .84 to wound = 1.89 wounds, no save.
Against the C'tan: 1.89 wounds * .5 invuln = .95 wounds.

They still outperform the other options except 4 Helios at 12" or 28 Fire Warriors against a C'tan.

Captain Micha
10-03-2009, 19:39
I use as cheap of a Side config that I can get and just throw on multitrackers. My Crisis config also just run on multitrackers in either Fireknife or Helios (after all unless they are all Vre's in squads of 1 they aren't going to have more than one slot!)

My Marker lights take care of my Bs 4 desires.

Somerandomidiot
10-03-2009, 20:06
I'm gonna go with score:1 for the Tau players, score:0 for the troll!

As far as Tau's effectiveness in 5th ed, my local Tau player absolutely annihilates me, running what I'd assume to be a pretty balanced list. He takes 2 Devilfish with Fire Warriors, 2 squads of Kroot, 1-2 Hammerheads, a squad of Broadsides, and plasma/missile suits (I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot about his army, but those are the things that I can specifically remember). Then again, I play Daemonhunters with allied Imperial Guard, so I may not be a good comparison, but he doesn't seem to be hurting too badly.

4+ cover saves vs all fire more than 12" away is absolutely incredible for your tanks, and while close combat troops are definitely scary, a lot of their mobility is tied to their transports, which you should have no problems taking out early on. Obviously, Tau are going to have problems with some opponents, but no worse than most armies out there.

jfrazell
10-03-2009, 20:45
Alright, so heres my deal, back in the day (5 years or so ago) I played 3rd edition space wolves. I was pretty good, I usually won, or placed in the top 3 of our local tournaments of around 15 people, I enjoyed playing the game, and I seem to remember the rules being a lot more simple, however, 5th ed is a totally new/different game it seems!

I switched from Space Wolves to Tau, and yeah, suffice to say, I'm getting slaughtered, close combat is wrecking me, and I swear everyone/every army is deepstriking everything 12'' or so away from me, slaughtering everything I have. I've read about Tau strats, FoF, and everything else, but I really don't see how FoF is all that effective when you can get so easily rocked in your DF by anti-tank fire.

Another thing that really gets me, is that 5th seems really really biased in favor of CC. Their is simply not enough distance on the board or enough ways to keep the CC troops of my enemies away from me, one squad of assault marines wrecks basically anything in my army, and when they were bunched up, my enemy just multi-unit assaults, and takes out 10 man squads with 4 guys, its insanity.

I am really frustrated with the base mechanics of the game I think too, scatter dice on a hammerheads submunition? Come on! Tau are capable of interstellar travel, they can defeat an entire splinter fleet of 'nids without losing a single ship, and we can't accurately put a shell into a building (something the United States could do in WORLD WAR TWO???)

Ugh, I'm just really really annoyed with 40k right now, the rules seem to favor CC way to much, everyone gets cover saves from my shooting, but do I get any cover saves from the assault troops that just deep struck and assault me? No.

I don't mean to unload such a rant, but I don't see how tau can be expected to deal with all this, not to mention our codex is out of date, and we have nothing on the horizon.

So please, someone tell me what to do, or should I just go back to playing space wolves or chaos so I can win once in awhile?

Yep. Welcome to 5th edition.