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PARTYCHICORITA
09-02-2009, 13:08
Let's say a unit with a BSB with the Drakenhoff baner (unit gets regeration) loses combat by 10. Since CR allows ward and regeneration saves the unit should be allowed to make regeneration saves.

How many saves does it take?

10? and then they lose 1 less wound because of the BSB within 12 (for example they fail 6 saves but only remove 5 models? or 9 since there's a BSB within 12 and those fail are removed as casualties?

Lordmonkey
09-02-2009, 13:22
9, and then the regen saves. The BSB reduces the number of wounds taken due to a lost combat by 1. You only take a Regen on a wound you would otherwise take.

Sifal
09-02-2009, 13:23
I think you'd make the regen saves first and then take 1 less wound as a result of the BSB after the Comabt has been fully resolved. the wording in the book says, 'suffer one less wound than they NORMALLY would'. 'Normally' implying as if the BSB wasn't there so resolve as normal with taking, in your example 10 saves, and then resolve the bonus for the BSB afterwards. This isn't solid fact though, just my deduction.

Lordmonkey
09-02-2009, 13:29
'Normally' implying as if the BSB wasn't there

No, 'normally' implies that the BSB is there because 'normally' a BSB reduces the wounds taken from losing a combat.

In order to make a regen save, you need to take a wound on the unit. If the Bsb is there, the wound is not taken, therefore no regen save is made.

Bac5665
09-02-2009, 14:13
The BSB is first. You need to know how many dice to roll before rolling regen saves. That number is the determined by the CR and the BSB. Just like in combat, you wait to roll saves untill you know how many wounds the dragon did to you, you need to know how many wounds crumbling does to you before saving.

Sarah S
09-02-2009, 14:20
Really? I would prefer that the BSB applies after saves, but I can't see anything in the rules that would narrow it down either way.

Bac5665
09-02-2009, 15:52
Its not explicit, but there is an implied "order of operations" in warhammer: hits, wounds saves. Crumble generates wounds, and the BSB is part of that process. Wounds are generated before saves, so the BSB is applied before saves. You won't find any blackletter text confirming this, but its strongly implied by the shooting and combat sections of the BRB.

Sifal
09-02-2009, 18:47
ah now i see, I overlooked the rest of the BSB wording about reducing wounds from combat res. Yes, I agree in this scenario it would be 9 saves, the 10th save is not required because that wound was never technically caused in the first place. It does actually seem pretty clear now I look at the whole situation again.

woodulikeanother
09-02-2009, 19:00
you actually would treat this banner like the varghulf so you get a chance to regen the 10 wounds suffered, then do combat results then if say you only lost by 3 get to regenerate those as well, because a guy from GW told me you basically get 2 chances with a varghulf to regenerate and this is similar

Bac5665
09-02-2009, 19:11
What? That's so badly written I have no idea what you're trying to say.

sulla
10-02-2009, 03:27
What? That's so badly written I have no idea what you're trying to say.

He means they regen combat wounds and then regen again on CR wounds (I think that's what he means anyway).

Lordmonkey
10-02-2009, 06:51
... because a guy from GW told me...

The start of the end. :cries:

I could go and get a job at GW tomorrow if I wanted to. Does that make me a rules Guru, simply because i wear a poloshirt with the GW logo?

Neckutter
10-02-2009, 06:53
no, but it would make me want to throw something at you. :)
heh, not really, monkey.

or maybe i just need to take a break from GW for a while.

havoc626
10-02-2009, 07:06
I say before, as it says the bsb reduces the wounds taken from CR, nothing about wounds after saves.

Asmodiseus
10-02-2009, 08:24
IMO its quite clear as it states on page 33 of the VC book that

"Undead units that are 12" from their Battle Standard suffer one less wound than they normally would when defeated in combat...."

So the order goes:
-Calculate Victory Points (lets assume you lost by 4)
-Calculate wounds caused by CR (normally 4 but since you are within 12" of the BSB its now 3)
-Take any ward or regen saves you may have to try and save against those wounds
-Remove any models that failed the saves.

Sifal
10-02-2009, 11:02
I think everyone is on the same side here..... shame it's not so clear cut with the vanhel's rules....!!