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ferrus
04-12-2005, 18:01
What do you think of the possiblity of a new aspect warrior entry being added in the next eldar dex?

Tom
04-12-2005, 18:21
About 40%, but I'd say doubtable anyway. They've got pretty much every aspect of war that can be used in 40K covered already.

New aspect models? 80-100% chance.

TWB
04-12-2005, 18:46
No new Aspects plenty of new (plastic) aspect warrior models. Least from what I've heard.

Aurelien
04-12-2005, 19:22
Thank god for plastic. Just hope we dont have a repeat of the striking bunnies :rolleyes:

5deadly
04-12-2005, 19:33
If they are plastic... which ones will make it? I bet banshees and reapers are a shoe in. for me this is good news I've always wanted a eldar army but I hate to have a "repeat model" metal army. those old models are too hard to convert burn through some saw blades and putty just to get a nice mix.
can we get some 3rd party to confirm this
or at least a AMEN brothas and sistas

Slappy
04-12-2005, 20:05
They already have too many aspects as it is. So many in fact GW didn't know what to do with them and ended up making them redundant with other units (Scorpions and Banshees, Avengers and Gaurdians, Spears and Jetbikes/Vypers, etc).

Negafex
04-12-2005, 20:17
i hope the warp spiders get redone with more poses, although i do like the current ones

Nexto
04-12-2005, 20:24
@Slappy: You should take another look at those pairs mentioned, most of them have very different roles and cant be replaced by each other.

But all in all, i couldnt think of any more specific aspect warriors which would be really new, but im sure there are some possible ;)

Davian
04-12-2005, 20:28
Yeah, the current Hawks, Reapers, and Spiders are good, but could use some variation in poses. It might be cool for the Reapers to get the helmet vanes back, like the current Exarch has. The Dragons, Banshees, and Avengers are acceptable, but could use a little bit of work. All they really need is a bit of a sizing down on the headdresses (the shaping is fine), and maybe a redesign of the fusion gun. The Scorpions could benefit from an overhaul, though. Perhaps a variation on the old ones would work...

boogle
04-12-2005, 20:37
apparently ALL of the Apsects are getting new models (with the exception of the Avengers i believe), whether they are plastic or not i don't know

Karhedron
04-12-2005, 20:39
The latest rumours I have heard suggest that Reapers and Banshees are both being redone. I don't know about other Aspects but I am seriously keeping my finger crossed that the Striking Bunny Wabbits will also be redone. If any aspect needs attention it is these guys.

As for plastic, don't hold your breath. There are new plastic Wraithlords and Warwalkers coming out for the Eldar but I have not heard anything that convinces me that the Aspect warriors will be plastic.

Hlokk
04-12-2005, 21:35
As for plastic, don't hold your breath. There are new plastic Wraithlords and Warwalkers coming out for the Eldar but I have not heard anything that convinces me that the Aspect warriors will be plastic.

suppose, for a second, they were to do plastic. Could GW get away with 1-2 plastic base kits and sprues for each different aspect (Like space wolves & Black templars, both can be made from normal marines with additional bits) or would GW have to do new plastic kits for each set of aspect warriors? If thats the case, I doubt we'll see any, as the investment cost in each sprue is going to be through the roof.

t-tauri
04-12-2005, 21:44
suppose, for a second, they were to do plastic. Could GW get away with 1-2 plastic base kits and sprues for each different aspect (Like space wolves & Black templars, both can be made from normal marines with additional bits) or would GW have to do new plastic kits for each set of aspect warriors? If thats the case, I doubt we'll see any, as the investment cost in each sprue is going to be through the roof.
I'd go along with that. To do all the aspects in plastic would need three or four boxes even if they each had a base figure with additional parts to distinguish aspects. Separate aspects at one per box is right out I'd think.

BTs and Wolves have a similar base in the power armour. Few of the Aspects look close enough to get away with that common base figure.

likeaknifeinthedark
04-12-2005, 21:47
if any aspect does get made into plastic, GW are gonna have to believe it's gonna sell quite a lot. i reckon metal is more likely. eldar are already getting warwalker and wraithlord in plastic and they'll wanna do other stuff like this that are likely to sell quite well. I'd guess at them trying to get more use out of that plastic weapon sprue they created for the wave serpent

i don't really expect any more aspects to be unveiled, there's quite a few at the moment

Aurelien
04-12-2005, 21:51
I agree with Hlokk. Eldar mech armour (visually) looks very similar. Even the bunny stuff, for all thats its a different save, look virtually the same. heads and weapons are all that really differentiates them.

Go Plastic!

Orbital
04-12-2005, 21:57
I can't think of an area of combat where another another new aspect could contribute very much. We have good ranged shooters, tank crackers, horde killers, power armor slicers and hit-and-runners. There was mention of Star Eagles in a recent White Dwarf, which suggested an Aspect of pilots. I think it'd be awesome to have a model you can use in your skimmers instead of the usual one and, when you replace him and spend the points, your vehicle is upgraded to BS4 or something comparably cool. Just an idea which I'll doubt they'll use, but it'd certainly be new if nothing else.

Orbital
04-12-2005, 22:03
apparently ALL of the Apsects are getting new models (with the exception of the Avengers i believe), whether they are plastic or not i don't know

Where did you get this information?

Howling_Screamer
04-12-2005, 22:06
They already have too many aspects as it is. So many in fact GW didn't know what to do with them and ended up making them redundant with other units (Scorpions and Banshees, Avengers and Gaurdians, Spears and Jetbikes/Vypers, etc).

Ummmmm.... Ok first I'll start with your Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions being the same comment you said. Howling Banshees are meant for taking out heavily armoured units, their powerblades and their banshee masks make them ideal for hero hunting. Striking Scopions on the other hand get a 3-4 str 4 attacks each (Mandiblaster included), naking them perfect for taking out basic troops. Heres an example. If I was versing Guard with banshees I'd only get around 30 attacks with the charge and need 4's to wound and banshees have only a 4+ save. Scorpions in this example would get 40 attacks needing 3s to wound and have a 3+ armor save.

Next Avengers and Guardians. Avengers are elite guardians - kind of like scouts vs marines. Avengers are also Aspect warriors, Guardians are not. This is very important for Biel-Tan players. And Asurmen.

Finally Jetbikes vs Shining Spears. Same comments as Avengers vs Guardians. Shining Spears are elite Jetbikes basically. Once again aspect warriors. Also Shining Spears can be adapted for close combat purposes. While it is best to keep your guardian Jetbike squadron out of it.

I'm sorry I had to reply on your extremely stupid comment. It was just killing me.

Karhedron
04-12-2005, 22:25
apparently ALL of the Apsects are getting new models (with the exception of the Avengers i believe), whether they are plastic or not i don't know
Are you sure? :eek:

I was speaking to someone in the know at Games Day and he seemed pretty emphatic that the only Aspects getting redone were the ones the studio felt were "letting the side down". Apparently there are definately some they are happy with and planning to leave alone.

Granted no info is ever 100% guaranteed until the models are in the shops but I would be very suprised if the above turns out to be incorrect.:eyebrows:

Orbital
04-12-2005, 22:35
There are new plastic Wraithlords and Warwalkers coming out for the Eldar ...

And what's your source on that?

lockmaster55
04-12-2005, 23:02
There are new plastic Wraithlords and Warwalkers coming out for the Eldar ...
This is pretty common knowledge, although i do not know an actual source. Add wraithguard, rangers, warp spiders and jetbikes to the above list. I would bet my savings on that.

As for other aspects being done, there are lots of mixed messages. Some say that ALL aspects are being redone. I'm not sure about this, but i reakon it is sensible to also guess that striking scorpians will be redone. There has been so much complaining about them (to the point where people are buying the old ones) i think they are high up on the list for a resculpt.

Hlokk
04-12-2005, 23:20
Add wraithguard, rangers, warp spiders and jetbikes to the above list. I would bet my savings on that.
Really? Do you honestly reckon there will be plastic warp spiders? As much as I would love to see them I dont think there will be because:

a: If their produced in plastic, people are going to bitch and moan (buy WHY isnt MY aspect in plastic?)
b: There might not be much of a market for them. GW could probably get away with new metal ones
c: GW only tend to produce core units and tanks in plastic, support units like aspect warriors, havocs etc get done in metal. It might mean that the warp spiders play a more significant role in the army.

Orbital
04-12-2005, 23:29
This is pretty common knowledge, although i do not know an actual source.

I expect a plastic Wraithlord, too, but if you don't have a source then I (personally) consider it an unconfirmed rumor. I don't mean this to be contrary or stand-offish in any way, but "common knowledge" isn't the same as a supporting citations or references to official statements/press releases/whatever... so I'm still keeping my fingers crossed.

Malakai
05-12-2005, 00:00
@Orbital

People who have proven time and again to be reliable sources have seen the plastic Wraithlord and WarWalker.

Malakai

Penitent
05-12-2005, 00:07
I've posted this thought before, but it seems like it wouldn't be *too* difficult to make a universal aspects set, at least for some of the aspects.

Just for the sake of example, Reapers and Fire Dragons, both of which are shooting aspects, and could therefore use the same poses, could be included in one box, with various head/weapon options to make either or both, not unlike the Tyranid Gaunts box.

Strikerkc
05-12-2005, 00:10
People who have proven time and again to be reliable sources have seen the plastic Wraithlord and WarWalker.


I can see the plastic wraith lord from a modeling perspective more than any thing. They're way to ahrd to comvert as it is, and even the heavily converted ones all still look a lot alike :(.

I can picture the bikes getting new drivers, but I don't see why they'd chance the chasie.

War walkers need an overhaul reguarldess, so the plastic might be feasable.

I don't see at all how dark reapers and warp spiders would get plastic models though... I'd see a plastic seer council box comeing out before something like those.


I've posted this thought before, but it seems like it wouldn't be *too* difficult to make a universal aspects set, at least for some of the aspects.

Ditto. While the paturns on the armr may be the same, their bulk and poses would make a single "base" model very far from likely. It would also lead to every model in an eldar army looking far to similar.

ferrus
05-12-2005, 02:41
I was wondering of they would to the "Striking Orbs of Zandros" or whatver they were called

Orbital
05-12-2005, 02:57
People who have proven time and again to be reliable sources have seen the plastic Wraithlord and WarWalker.

I'll explain to you why it is that I'm giving you a hard time about it, Malakai. I promise you it's nothing personal.

I work in journalism. If someone says to me "This product is going to be released", I can't print that unless the claim can be traced back to something official. I can say "Rumors are floating around that this product is going to be released", but I can't say "it IS going to be released". This is because, if I'm wrong, I'll be drawn and quartered and boiled in oil... and that's before the real punishment starts.

Essentially, people get excited and they exaggerate. They say they've seen or heard things that they haven't. This isn't necessarily because they're trying to lie... it's just that the combination of flawed human memory and their desire for it to be true sometimes mix a cocktail which isn't quite accurate. People want what they *think* is going to happen or what they believe *should* happen to be what *will* happen.

I've had this occur a lot in the Warhammer world. People say to me "I know a guy who knows (insert name of famous GW folk hero here), and he says (insert some codex/model/rule) is going to happen". I had a guy practically yelling in my face once about how the Ork codex would be out before Tyranids, claiming "Everyone knows that". I asked him what his source was, and he kept saying "EVERYONE knows it's true", and I kept asking him "How do you know?" which I think was why he was getting really upset. He finally said "Look, I know a guy who is never wrong about these things" and, of course, he ended up being wrong... but at the time the guy would have bet his mother's liver on it based on what someone had told him. I, on the other hand, need to see something official. I need to see a model sprue, a press release, some kind of reputable report of a comment made at a Games Day, etc. etc. That's the stuff which I consider to be reliable. Stuff I've been told is "certain fact" which doesn't fall into that purview includes:
- Eldar codex out before Xmas 2005 (with Dark Eldar rolled into it)
- Eldar codex out by Summer 2005
- Eldar codex out by Spring 2005
- Eldar race to receive no more models or books and be phased completely out of the game and off shelves by 2007
- Ork codex out before Black Templars
- New Ork Trukk out before Xmas 2005
- New 40k race by February 2006

Note that all of these were stated as certain fact to me and, when I asked what the source was, I *always* heard "I know someone who has seen it/talked to a guy from GW/something else really awesome". Hey, sometimes these things do turn out to be right... but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

So I hope you understand that I intend no offense whatsoever and am certainly not trying to suggest you're just blowing hot air or anything like that. I realize this is the rumors forum, and so if someone can't source what they're saying, that's just part of the fun. I just know that when I state something as fact in a professional capacity that I can't trace to a reliable source, I often have to eat a lot of crow and apologize later. When I state something as fact which *can* be traced to a reliable source, I never have to.

Cheers.

major_panic
05-12-2005, 05:44
I really do hope that the Warp Spiders get redone... As much as I love the models, it's kind of annoying that they're from what, second/first edition? Same with the Wraithlord, Wraithguard and a few other things, I'm sure.

ferrus
05-12-2005, 11:55
Orbital: You are right of course, but Brimstone is a far more reliable source than any of those you mentioned

Brother Munro
05-12-2005, 12:11
New models are highly likely, an entirely new aspect seems unlikely (there are lots already) though reworking the current ones so that they are all good choices rather than only ever seeing the same old aspects (has anyone ever seen a Shining Spear in a game?). Based on GW's release shedule Eldar should be coming out this summer/autumn*, so if eldar rumours** start turning up we'll know they are about 6 months away.

*Because GW have randomly decided to ruin the Tau this spring instead of fixing the Eldar dex or releasing some ******* new Ork models! /rant
**Pictures of the Codex etc.

Avian
05-12-2005, 12:16
Really? Do you honestly reckon there will be plastic warp spiders?
I think the rumour is that they'll be redone, not that they'll be redone in plastic...

self biased
05-12-2005, 16:02
i believe the warp spider model is one of the oldest in the range, currently. my predictions are as follows:

new warp spiders. they're old, static, and to be honest don't live up to the asskicking that they dole out in dawn of war. they're also the closest thing that eldar have to jump pack troops. i wouldn't be wholly surprised to see some additional close combat come from them.

old shining spears. let's face it. they'll get new kickass rules so GW can move all that back stock from the last revision. then possibly a resculpt using the rumored new jetbike.

new scorpions. because it seems like everyone but me hates them.

new avatar. if we're to believe the scuttlebutt about him being moved (rightfully) to special character status, a new sculpt should be in order. he's also starting to show his age. i for one would love to see a forgeworld avatar as well. ... they are doing all the other greater daemons too.

Achilles
05-12-2005, 16:04
I think the rumour is that they'll be redone, not that they'll be redone in plastic...

consider though... since they have new tech for making plastic models, if they are going to redo a model anyway, why not do it in plastic?

and if the rules for warpspiders get changed and improved (jetpacks anyone?) they might be used more... they used to be extremely popular among friends of mine, espessially as exarches... (they really laid waste to whole army's of necrons back in 2nd ed:cries: ) but the 3rd ed codex neutered them a lot...
maybe this incarnation they're back with a vengeance... and maybe a phoenix lord?:D

Negafex
05-12-2005, 16:09
the warp spiders, i believe, are in need of more customizable and convertable models( and a phoenix lord) i wouldnt doubt well se em in plastic as well as all the other aspects as the eldar are going to be a major release. i dont think well see a new aspect but maybe a retinue for the autarch that is able to take aspect gear like he can, that'd be a treat for everyone.

self biased
05-12-2005, 16:29
even so, warp spiders are still no joke in fourth edition. two strength six shots per model is no laughing matter. even marines get wounded on twos! yeah, yeah, they still get their save... but consider a squad of six: 12 strength six shots. on average you'll get 8 hits, and from there about seven wounds. statistically speaking that's two dead marines. and you get to leap back behind cover.

Karhedron
05-12-2005, 19:07
consider though... since they have new tech for making plastic models, if they are going to redo a model anyway, why not do it in plastic?
It is not just a question of the tech, it is also the question of profitability. Plastic models have higher initial costs than metal ones so GW need to be convinced that the new models will shift in sufficient quantities to be done in plastic. Grey Knights etc are metals even though they could have been done in plastic.


And what's your source on that?
Sometimes people do have good info but their sources have asked not to be quoted. This is my case, I could give you the name of my source but that would **** him off, possibly cause him a hard time with the rest of the studio and also pretty much kill my chance of getting future info.

This is similar with a lot of the more reliable rumour posters on this forum. They get their info because their contacts trust them to be discreet and not drop names.

Orbital
05-12-2005, 20:30
This is similar with a lot of the more reliable rumour posters on this forum. They get their info because their contacts trust them to be discreet and not drop names.

I understand what it is you're saying and, honestly, for the sake of a game with space toys it's not worth raking someone over the coals for lack of sources. I work in a job where, if someone tells me something is so, I need to get proof or it's worthless to me. On the one hand this experience has made me aware of how easy it is for people to just shoot their mouths off without backing up their stories with a little information about why they believe what they're saying and where it came from. Too many people are just plain full of crap, frankly, for this step to be unnecessary.

That having been said, I've been in the position where someone who knows a little about the inner workings of GW has shared privy information about upcoming plans which could have put their jobs at risk. Usually that information is shared for the purpose of answering *my* questions, and I am almost always asked not to share it further. Even so, there are times when someone asks me where my information comes from, and I have to tell them that my sources have been asked not to be named. When I do this, however, I don't expect people to take what I say on faith. I understand that if I can't give them clear proof then I can't expect them to just buy what I'm saying. Nonetheless, I know that sometimes things can be true even if they can't be sourced to the public in general.

I have an irrationally hostile reaction to people I don't personally know who expect me to just take their word on something because they say it, but I accept that's just my own private Idaho. Not everyone has that problem.

Tom
05-12-2005, 21:25
If you just accept Brimstone, Engel et all with it then it's pretty much gold, they're about as accurate as it's possible to be withough being Gav Thorpe et al. It's a rumour mill about a silly game, not working out who the '08 presidential candidates are.

Karhedron
05-12-2005, 21:51
At the end of the day, experience tends to show who really knows what they are talking about. Brimstone and Engel are usually pretty solid and Killjoy used to be good too (whatever happened to him anyway?). Other posters often drop the occasional gem in too from time to time.

Orbital
05-12-2005, 22:07
I'm going to keep asking people what their sources are. Don't take it personally :)

hood_oz
05-12-2005, 22:26
I'm going to keep asking people what their sources are. Don't take it personally :)

One of my old sources used to be a printer who worked on the books and did some of the blister backs.

Not the greatest set of info, but handy when I got calls from him saying he had just done a blister back for a certain character miniature, or the box for a certain space marine command squad, or a few of the tidbits from a codex he had on the press.

But he since moved on, I dont have that reliability in advance rumours anymore. Hell, they can print blister backs six months in advance, even before the miniatures are finished. Which gives a inside running on what is coming, rather than what it looks like.

I get them from other sources, but NDA is a very real aspect of their lives and it isn't just getting sacked in some cases. There are punishments and other penalties depending on who gets told what. From what I heard the Developer NDA for Lord of the Rings was brutal.

Tom
05-12-2005, 23:15
I'm going to keep asking people what their sources are. Don't take it personally :)

You're gonna keep getting 'I can't reveal it because it'd do immense harm to my source'. So whybother?

Orbital
05-12-2005, 23:33
You're gonna keep getting 'I can't reveal it because it'd do immense harm to my source'. So whybother?

In that case it'd be my problem, so don't worry about it.

Tom
05-12-2005, 23:34
In that case it'd be my problem, so don't worry about it.
Not gonna dude,. Sorry if I'm getting on your back. My bad entirely.

Trunks
06-12-2005, 04:22
apparently ALL of the Apsects are getting new models (with the exception of the Avengers i believe), whether they are plastic or not i don't know

I can't imagine the current Dire Avengers not being touched. They are the easiest candidate for a plastic boxed set, being a Troops choice and the most common Aspect Warriors (according to the background, not the tabletop, hopefully new rules will change this). Secondly, GW really seems to hate plastic/metal hybrid sets for the most part these days, and Avengers are a hybrid set. They may even take the current metal pieces and put them on the guardian plastic sprue so that they don't even need a new boxed set.

GW could easily combine Guardian Defenders, Storm Guardians, and Dire Avengers into one plastic set (add in one extra sprue to the current guardian box that has storm guardian arms and dire avenger heads and little metal tassel/cloth thingies, that's all they'd have to do). It would save shelf space (so they can put out more marines :rolleyes:), one boxed set as opposed to three, and get rid of a metal/plastic hybrid set at the same time.

As far as any other aspects becoming plastic:
Reapers are unlikely since you don't need many in your army (unless they change that somehow).

Shining Spears aren't out of the realm of possibility simply because it would only require a few extra bits on the new Guardian Jetbiker sprue (I'm assuming Jetbikers are being redone), if only to save shelf space (since they are a rarely used aspect to begin with).

I'm doubting Swooping Hawks since I never, ever, ever, hear people complain about those awesome models.

Scorpions will be redone unless GW wants to be stormed, they may be popular enough to be done as plastic too, I somehow doubt it though.

Warp Spiders are a possiblity for plastic if their rules change a bit to make the more worthwhile overall.

Banshees probably aren't a candidate for being turned into plastic, scorpions seem to be more popular.

Any of this could change if GW actually makes Eldar reflect the background (higher Aspect Warrior count, lower guardian count unless it is Ulthwe).

Malakai
06-12-2005, 05:20
I can't imagine the current Dire Avengers not being touched. They are the easiest candidate for a plastic boxed set, being a Troops choice and the most common Aspect Warriors (according to the background, not the tabletop, hopefully new rules will change this). Secondly, GW really seems to hate plastic/metal hybrid sets for the most part these days, and Avengers are a hybrid set. They may even take the current metal pieces and put them on the guardian plastic sprue so that they don't even need a new boxed set.

Last I heard the Dire Avengers will be all plastic, but I've been out of the loop for a couple of months and so things may have changed. Though the reason given for them being made all plastic was the same you gave, i.e GW hates plastic/metal hybrids. So my money is still on seeing these guys all plastic.

Malakai

Slappy
06-12-2005, 05:51
I'm sorry I had to reply on your extremely stupid comment. It was just killing me.

It's not a stupid comment and it still stands. It's just most people are too stupid to see what I was talking about. Scorpions and Banshees are both elite close combat units. In the early days there was no concept of balance in the army creation, GW would just publish one unit after another, even if they fulfilled the same battlefield role. With all the aspects they have now, what are they gonna produce next? Another heavy weapon aspect? They already have the Dark Reapers OR the Grav Platforms, OR the Walkers/Dreadnoughts, OR the tanks. Or maybe another highly mobile Aspects? They already have Swooping Hawks AND Shining Spears AND Jetbikes AND Vypers.

In the early days, GW made a gazillion units for the Eldar. Why would they add more Aspect units? That's stupid.

And so is 40k for that matter, but that's for another topic.

New Cult King
06-12-2005, 07:07
I've been told that GW's master plan, driven by Lord JJ, is that all 'Troops' for all armies will eventually be plastic.

Eldar are a bit of a grey area, since Aspect Warriors are Troops for Biel-Tann armies, but not for any other forces.

I can imagine Dawn of War having a bit of an impact on the new Eldar gear, especially Warp Spiders being remade to look more like their digital counterparts, but this is just idle speculation.

The new Wraithlords are supposed to look more like the FW Eldar titan, which would be hell sweet. I think that's a Brimstone special, that rumour.

Howling_Screamer
06-12-2005, 07:10
I agree with you slappy. I think adding any new aspect warriors would be a little over the top. But I disagree with you about the fact that GW just pumped out units in the early stages. Also two more facts. Vypers aren't aspect warriors and 40K isn't stupid. Only some of the rules.

Slappy
06-12-2005, 08:15
I wasn't saying Vypers were Aspect warriors. Sorry for the confusion. I was just comparing them to the Aspects. I highly doubt they could add any new Aspects for a role that hasn't already been filled in the Eldar army.

Orbital
06-12-2005, 11:04
It's not a stupid comment and it still stands...

I think when people start calling each other stupid it can definitely be said that they are part of the problem, not the solution.

Orbital
06-12-2005, 11:26
They are the easiest candidate for a plastic boxed set, being a Troops choice and the most common Aspect Warriors (according to the background, not the tabletop, hopefully new rules will change this)...

This, combined with your other comment...


Shining Spears aren't out of the realm of possibility simply because it would only require a few extra bits on the new Guardian Jetbiker sprue (I'm assuming Jetbikers are being redone), if only to save shelf space (since they are a rarely used aspect to begin with).

...bring up an excellent point about how rules lead models. Why make new models for Dire Avengers and Shining Spears when they aren't commonly taken by players? It's a lot of money to resculpt units that people still won't buy. It's a good clue, then, that whatever models you see being retooled will likely receive rules to make them worth buying. It makes me particularly
interested in the future of the War Walker...!


I'm doubting Swooping Hawks since I never, ever, ever, hear people complain about those awesome models.

I agree that the Swooping Hawks look amazing. In fact, a good pal of mine got into the game just for those models alone. I think they're a candidate for new models, however, because they are all carrying lasblasters, which are antiquated weaponry. You know that'll change in the revised rules and, as a result, we should expect some new models sometime. If they just used what they've got and replaced the weapons on the sculpt, I'd be A-Ok with that.


Banshees probably aren't a candidate for being turned into plastic, scorpions seem to be more popular.

I'd be curious to know what you're basing this on. Just personal opinion, or something a little less subjective?

Starchild
06-12-2005, 16:10
Eldar are a bit of a grey area, since Aspect Warriors are Troops for Biel-Tann armies, but not for any other forces.Er, not quite. Dire Avengers are troops choices for the regular Eldar list, Ulthwé, Alaitoc, and Biel-tan.


I can imagine Dawn of War having a bit of an impact on the new Eldar gear, especially Warp Spiders being remade to look more like their digital counterparts, but this is just idle speculation.I think the new models will actually make Dawn of War look a bit aged. Maybe THQ will make visual updates in future add-ons (assuming the game isn't discontinued in the future.)


Why make new models for Dire Avengers and Shining Spears when they aren't commonly taken by players?Agreed. I think the Dire Avengers and Shining Spears look great, but as previously noted, GW is moving away from metal/plastic hybrid kits.


I think they're a candidate for new models, however, because they are all carrying lasblasters, which are antiquated weaponry. You know that'll change in the revised rules and, as a result, we should expect some new models sometime.I'll take that as an assumption unless you state otherwise.

I think the Swooping Hawks will have lasblasters whether they are resculpted or not. Lasblasters are a distinct Eldar weapon which could make an interesting option for Guardians. Hopefully the main strength of Hawks in the new rules will be grenade bombing, like it was in 1st and 2nd ed.

Orbital
06-12-2005, 16:18
Agreed. I think the Dire Avengers and Shining Spears look great, but as previously noted, GW is moving away from metal/plastic hybrid kits.

I didn't quite catch the whole "moving away from metal/plastic kits" thing which (I think) was discussed elsewhere. Can you give me the thumbnail sketch on that so I know what you're talking about?


(Regarding my suggested changes to Swooping Hawks)I'll take that as an assumption unless you state otherwise.

You are 100% correct.

My assumption is based on the idea that las-weapons tend to be something belonging to the Imperium and Shuriken weaponry is the Eldar choice. I don't have any data confirming that changes will be made for the Swooping Hawks, but I'm expecting that they will be.

Rlyehable
06-12-2005, 16:28
I've been told that GW's master plan, driven by Lord JJ, is that all 'Troops' for all armies will eventually be plastic.

I have heard this rumour also.
However, the Inquisistion (Daemon Hunters & Witchhunters) puts lie to this rumour (at least in part). I suspect that Niche Armies will continue to have metal Troops.
And, no, I am not implying that Eldar are a Niche Army.

Orbital
06-12-2005, 16:36
I have heard this rumour also.
However, the Inquisistion (Daemon Hunters & Witchhunters) puts lie to this rumour (at least in part). I suspect that Niche Armies will continue to have metal Troops.

It may just be a great stretching of the term "eventually" (i.e. years and years)


And, no, I am not implying that Eldar are a Niche Army.

Then it'll be interesting to see what happens with these Rangers I've been hearing about, as rumor has it that the new ones will be metal and they *are* a Troop Choice.

New Cult King
06-12-2005, 22:44
Er, not quite. Dire Avengers are troops choices for the regular Eldar list, Ulthwé, Alaitoc, and Biel-tan.

Oops - I'm not an Eldar player and I forgot that Dire Avengers are technically Aspect Warriors :p

Wiseman
07-12-2005, 01:14
theres no need for a new aspect though it wouldnt surprise me if they did bring one in

Amon Ra
07-12-2005, 03:13
I'd like to see an "assassin" aspect. Operates like a Vindicare or some such.

Nazguire
07-12-2005, 03:24
I'd like to see an "assassin" aspect. Operates like a Vindicare or some such.

Yuck, I wouldn't. I don't know why, but the thought of an Eldar in a tight jump suit with a rifle sitting back shooting by his lonesome while the rest of the army works in co-ordination to the letter doesn't sit well with me.

The closest we'll see to assassin Eldar I think are Striking Scorpions and Warp Spiders.

Strikerkc
07-12-2005, 03:35
The closest we'll see to assassin Eldar I think are Striking Scorpions and Warp Spiders.

Heck, they've got eldar rangers to act as their "outside" elements. And they do the job better than a vindicar, for less points ;).

boogle
07-12-2005, 09:30
it wouldn't surprise me about the Aspects either, but the question is, where would they fit it (the only one i can see realistically is one from Altansar - maybe Maugen Ra's real Aspect temple)

Venkh
07-12-2005, 10:18
The solitaires and mimes perform an assassination role for the harlequins, infiltrating bases, leaving calling cards and delivering the harlequins kiss through the shower screen.

I would imagine that the Farseers would make excellent assassins, being able to perform small acts that alter events, subtly directing the target down a path that leads to their destruction. Just think of the butterflies wing causing a hurricane analogy. And if that doesnt work just use mind war from a hidden position.

This aside i would agree that of the remaining selections the rangers would be a good choice.

If there was an actual aspect temple devoted to the art of infiltration and assassination i would like it to be in fluff only. Such people dont really belong on the battlefield.

Sildani
07-12-2005, 14:06
The only new Aspects I could think of would be the Star Eagles, which are supposed to be a vehicle-dedicated Aspect. They might be used as upgrades to the standard Vyper, Falcon, Fire Prism, Wave Serpent and - possibly - War Walker crew.

We already see them in Eldar aircraft and Engines of Vaul - it would make sense that only a dedicated Aspect pilot or gunner is trusted with aircraft, or the biggest, most expensive tanks (Titans are something else). Pay the points, and one can pilot the "rank and file" stuff.

Orbital
07-12-2005, 15:25
The only new Aspects I could think of would be the Star Eagles, which are supposed to be a vehicle-dedicated Aspect. They might be used as upgrades to the standard Vyper, Falcon, Fire Prism, Wave Serpent and - possibly - War Walker crew.

We already see them in Eldar aircraft and Engines of Vaul - it would make sense that only a dedicated Aspect pilot or gunner is trusted with aircraft, or the biggest, most expensive tanks (Titans are something else). Pay the points, and one can pilot the "rank and file" stuff.

I am totally, 100% on board with you on this one. Now, I'm not Nostradamus, but this seems like a really good idea. You can get a replacement pilot model for your favorite Eldar vehicle, and then the stats of the vehicle change (say from BS3 to BS4, or even BS5... which would be just RUDE on a Falcon, but you get the idea... or maybe it's impossible to score a Stunned/Shaken on them... or who knows?).

I'd really like to see some changes on the War Walker, but not wholesale changes; I already use them and get great results (terrifying results, actually) and if they were tweaked up too much then I'd feel cheap using them and would have to change my strategies. I wouldn't mind seeing them get a "Machine Spirit" equivilent (or even Spirit Stones) and it might be nice if there were some special rule that was just theirs (like, for instance, on turns when they don't shoot they can put more power into their shields and be armor 11 for a turn). I'd also be glad if they were no longer considered open-topped (but dream on). If, however, they could be tooled up with Holo-field, Spirit Stones and a bunch of other goodies then they might not be so fair anymore; in my opinion their fragility was the balance to their sick firepower. God love them.

bryankia
07-12-2005, 16:14
I like the new aspect Idea. Here is just a crazy idea. While I love my Eldar transports (read tanks) and the Eldar Falcon the one thing that I like the most is the ability to shoot in the movement phase. I think this almost doubles there value for me. This is also the bane of my opponent's. I don't think Eldar should louse this ability but the impact it has is directly proportional to the weapons of the vehicle. That said instead of paying a flat amount for the wargerar instead it might make all weapons cost twice as much. Now I know the numbers would have to be tweaked on the weapons. But the idea is to charge a different amount depending on what will be done with the wargear as a balancing act.

Just an idea
Bryan

PS bs 4 with an aspect would be great. but I think this kind of upgrade would work best if the cost was determined by the weapons not a flat amount.

Venkh
07-12-2005, 16:20
I also heard the star eagles rumor and was very impressed, i would like to see this.
Imagine what a Star eagle Exarch would be capable of in a falcon.:evilgrin:

Orbital
07-12-2005, 16:40
An interesting concept (purely born from my own imagination): If Star Eagles are piloting vehicles, wouldn't it be cool if Falcons (for instance) could be taken in Squadrons? With two Star Eagles and a Star Eagle Exarch piloting? Certainly there would have to be some solid road blocks and speed bumps to prevent nightmare configurations (like nine fully jacked-up Falcons), but it could introduce some really awesome benefits and negatives to make the game really interesting.

erion
07-12-2005, 16:43
That Star Eagle upgrade that allows a squadron of Falcons had better cost an insanely high amount of points in order to toally break the force org chart like that...

Helicon_One
07-12-2005, 16:53
I'd like to see the Star Eagle crew option too, but rather than messing things around by allowing squadrons of Falcons, just allow one crewman per vehicle an upgrade to an Exarch, so one gun on the vehicle would be BS5, perhaps with some nasty warrior powers (Fast Shot?!?!?!) too. Hmm.

Tim

Orbital
07-12-2005, 17:02
Squadrons were just an idea of mine. I've never heard anything indicating that they might become a reality.

Venkh
07-12-2005, 17:16
The mere suggestion of a squadron of Star Eagle piloted falcons led by an Exarch, each vehicle carrying a deadly cargo of aspect warriors, gives me palpatations.

We should stop now before things get out of hand.

Orbital
07-12-2005, 17:42
The mere suggestion of a squadron of Star Eagle piloted falcons led by an Exarch, each vehicle carrying a deadly cargo of aspect warriors, gives me palpatations.

We should stop now before things get out of hand.

Take your heart medication, Venkh. It was just an idea. God...

Follow
07-12-2005, 19:57
I've always wondered why the Eldar put their most useless units into their most precious vehicles...

A vehicle aspect always made sense to me, I think that's the only one left that needs to be done.




Follow :)

Icarus
07-12-2005, 20:03
Phil Kelly has said that he wanted to a) do something with Altansar and b) create a new aspect linked to Altansar, possibly representing death or afterlife. Of course these elements could merely be additional flavour for Dark Reapers, or be scrapped entirely. Of course we don't know if an Altansar list will even be included, and as has been said, its unlikely there will be new aspects.

Star Eagles sounds like a really cool idea to me, although in the name of sanity it would probably restrict other vehicle upgrades, like taking Star Eagles means no CTM, or something like that.

Snorphel
07-12-2005, 20:39
It is speculation - not based even on a rumour; but I think that with all these 'new plastics' it could be just a recut of the old guardians sprue - the same way they did the marines.

If so, we will probably see one part leg units and hopefully extra bits. Maybe a weapon platform base (that can take the new plastic heavy weapons). Additional sprues can have d. avenger parts and/or h-t-h weapons for storm guardians.

That's my guess.

Trunks
07-12-2005, 21:16
I'd like to see an "assassin" aspect. Operates like a Vindicare or some such.

In Jes Godwin's sketch book that BL had out (I don't know if it is still available, I regret not picking it up when I saw it because it is AWESOME), he had sketches of an Eldar Assassin that looked pretty cool. I don't know if it was meant to be an aspect, another part of the "Path of the Outcast", or something else.

ferrus
07-12-2005, 21:28
Phil Kelly has said that he wanted to a) do something with Altansar and b) create a new aspect linked to Altansar, possibly representing death or afterlife.
If they plan to do variant list rules for the various craftworlds, I see no harm in adding an additional one in.

bluetablepainting
07-12-2005, 23:40
The trend seems to be to make the plastic kits multi-purpose. Following this line of thinking, I predice that the Guardians/Dire Avengers will become one items. I can't imagine how the other aspects will be combined.

Shawn G.

Orcdom
08-12-2005, 02:58
theres no need for a new aspect though it wouldnt surprise me if they did bring one in

its possible with the craftworld Altansar (sp?) that appeared from the EoT. it couls be something as craftworld specific but none the less maybe something new.

Edit: well i see it was allready mentioned.

Steve

foehammer888
08-12-2005, 14:27
While plastic can be nice, I think i'd prefer to keep metal aspect warriors rather than trade detail and character for a multi-unit boxed set. If they made plastic, one box would need to make several unit types, which would mean that the detail and character of each model would be lost.

Another difficulty is that many of the aspects have small distinctions in their armor that would prevent them from being used in multi-unit kits.

Banshees - are all female, thus they would need female bodies for all the models (or breast bits, which I don't even want to get into to)

Reapers - tend to have the extremly heavy leg armor

spiders - have strange vaines around their neck and shoulder area.

The only likely one that I could see would be one box to represent scorpions, fire dragons, or warp spiders, as they all have similar armor, and could be differentiated by simple bits(arms and helmets, with a piece of back armor for the spiders). However, you would be paying alot for that 10 model set.

Another option would be to have boxes that contain 3-4 plastic models for 3 of the aspects. So one box would allow you to make 4 banshees, 4 warp spiders, and 2 reapers for example. Another could allow 4 scorpions, 4 fire dragons, and 2 reapers. It would mean 2 boxes to get 3 decent sized units, but then the units wouldn't need to be differentiated by only bits.

Foehammer

Amon Ra
09-12-2005, 00:25
If there was an actual aspect temple devoted to the art of infiltration and assassination i would like it to be in fluff only. Such people dont really belong on the battlefield.

Tell that to the Grey Knights :evilgrin:


Seriously, though, it is the only role I can think of that isn't filled by any other ASPECT.

Orbital
09-12-2005, 00:43
There's a short list of functions I would like to see served by the Eldar list which aren't already covered. I'd like to see something that can effectively Deep Strike *other* than Swooping Hawks (Space Marines get to Deep Strike Terminators and Dreadnoughts... we get to Deep Strike 98-pound elves in feather boas).

One good option for Deep Strikers, I think, is clearly the Warp Spiders. If I hear correctly, they used to be able to do that in previous rules.

The question of Star Eagles has been touched upon several times already, so I won't belabor it except to say I'd love to see them appear in the new codex.

Personally, I don't think it's Aspect Warriors the Eldar army needs more options for. It's HQ.

Amon Ra
09-12-2005, 00:55
Personally, I don't think it's Aspect Warriors the Eldar army needs more options for. It's HQ.

Completely Agreed

Ares
09-12-2005, 02:50
I'd like to see an "assassin" aspect. Operates like a Vindicare or some such.

I always thought it was a little odd that the Eldar didnt have assassin's or an assassin aspect :confused: considering they like to mess with the possible future & besides eldar assassin's would be down right terrifing.

blitz589
09-12-2005, 02:57
They have rangers that infiltrate, in the backround they would probably be the Eldars Assassins

Ares
09-12-2005, 03:26
I was thinking that Eldar assassins would make Eversar's look humourous.

Icarus
09-12-2005, 10:33
Yeah Rangers pretty much make up their assassins I believe, in fluff terms they are virtually impossible to detect and extremely deadly.

Orbital
09-12-2005, 13:29
To me, an assassin should have the ability to select a specific model and take it out of commission.

Major Thom
09-12-2005, 14:20
There's a short list of functions I would like to see served by the Eldar list which aren't already covered. I'd like to see something that can effectively Deep Strike *other* than Swooping Hawks (Space Marines get to Deep Strike Terminators and Dreadnoughts... we get to Deep Strike 98-pound elves in feather boas).

I think you will see this dealt with by seeing the use of Wraithgates like the Strike Force gets. It would make much more sense.

Orbital
09-12-2005, 14:21
I dunno, Thom... getting a Wraithgate into position is easier said than done. Take it from me; I play Ulthwe Strike Force.

Starchild
09-12-2005, 18:50
Phil Kelly has said that he wanted to a) do something with Altansar and b) create a new aspect linked to Altansar, possibly representing death or afterlife.Twitching Corpse aspect warriors? :skull: :D

(regarding Eldar assassins) Seriously, though, it is the only role I can think of that isn't filled by any other ASPECT.I seem to recall something about Shadow Cat aspect warriors from a previous Warseer discussion. There were concept sketches of them, but I don't know if they will ever be sculpted.

In Jes Godwin's sketch book that BL had out, he had sketches of an Eldar Assassin that looked pretty cool.I've seen what you're talking about. He looks like a Ranger with a Warp Spider helmet. I'm sure assassination is a task that isn't limited to aspect warriors. In this case the Eldar assassin is a precision sniper.

Yeah Rangers pretty much make up their assassins I believe, in fluff terms they are virtually impossible to detect and extremely deadly.I'm sure Ranger fulfill the role of snipers quite well. Apparently the Phoenix Lords, who often operate alone, also carry out assassinations. Karandras the Shadow Hunter is particularly well-equipped for it, as is Jain Zar the Storm of Silence. Harlequin Solitaires and Mimes are among the most feared assassins in the galaxy.

There's a short list of functions I would like to see served by the Eldar list which aren't already covered. I'd like to see something that can effectively Deep Strike *other* than Swooping Hawks (Space Marines get to Deep Strike Terminators and Dreadnoughts... we get to Deep Strike 98-pound elves in feather boas).
One good option for Deep Strikers, I think, is clearly the Warp Spiders. If I hear correctly, they used to be able to do that in previous rules.Warp Spiders have never been able to deepstrike in any version of the rules. Why not allow Eldar skimmers to deep strike? If Space Marine Land Speeders can deep strike, why can't Eldar skimmers do the same? Eldar often deploy from low orbit, after all. The Wave Serpent could be the Eldar equivalent of the Drop Pod.

Icarus
09-12-2005, 19:09
Harlequin Solitaires and Mimes are among the most feared assassins in the galaxy.

Very true. There was a short Harlequin story (very old fluff cant remember where it was) about a Harlequin who infiltrated a Slaaneshi cult and lured the hundreds of members out of the city, to have them brutally slaughtered by a small Harlequin troupe.

Major Thom
09-12-2005, 19:56
I dunno, Thom... getting a Wraithgate into position is easier said than done. Take it from me; I play Ulthwe Strike Force.

As do I, and it usually costs me many of the Guardians that accompany them, but over all the concept works well.

Orbital
09-12-2005, 23:35
That's cool, Thom. I play a very different system of Ulthwe Strike Force than (I think) most people do. I might be wrong. If you're interested, I describe it here at length (http://eldarcraftworld.blogspot.com/2005/09/perspectives-on-usf.html). If not, I won't take it personally. :)

Orbital
09-12-2005, 23:37
Warp Spiders have never been able to deepstrike in any version of the rules. Why not allow Eldar skimmers to deep strike? If Space Marine Land Speeders can deep strike, why can't Eldar skimmers do the same? Eldar often deploy from low orbit, after all. The Wave Serpent could be the Eldar equivalent of the Drop Pod.

Personally, I think that the Eldar skimmers don't need the Deep Strike option. They can pretty much get to wherever they wish as fast as they wish without the help. I'd save that for units which would have more mobility trouble.

I know Land Speeders can do it, but I don't actually think that's such a great idea :)

Karhedron
10-12-2005, 14:13
I know Land Speeders can do it, but I don't actually think that's such a great idea :)
Agreed, the only time it is worthwhile is if you want the mutlimelta variants for tank-busting. Then DSing them in close to the enemy armour can be a nice ace up your (power-armoured) sleeve. ;)

Orbital
10-12-2005, 15:27
Agreed, the only time it is worthwhile is if you want the mutlimelta variants for tank-busting. Then DSing them in close to the enemy armour can be a nice ace up your (power-armoured) sleeve. ;)

I agree that it works... but I don't know if I think it's fair. The thing already moves 24" a turn. Does it need to plop in behind tanks as well?

Anyhow, it's hardly a pet cause of mine to rally against Deep Striking Land Speeders. Let's get this thread back on topic!

Something I'm curious about is if anyone knows anything whatsoever about Slicing Orbs, other than the brief mention years back.

TheShadow3s
10-12-2005, 16:28
Maybe a little bit of topic but altansar was dragged in the warp and is reappearring now out of the warp so and maugan ra came from altansar right so will we get another HV choice to rip arat marines >?

Michaelius
10-12-2005, 17:13
Heh yeah more marine killing weapons is what we need :D I want something to kill horde armies as i often find it much harder to slice through imperial guard than marines.

Icarus
10-12-2005, 19:46
Maugan Ra does indeed come from Altansar, and the original Dark Reaper shrine is located there IIRC. So possibly an Altansar list will be able to take lots of Dark Reapers?

TheShadow3s
10-12-2005, 19:51
Troops choices equiped with reaper launchers perhaps ?
Guess they will become like a extra wounds army cause in fluff on the universe of 40 on the main site it sais they are ghostly . Must be 2 wouns or something fearless perhaps but I think they have a laod of special rules

Sildani
10-12-2005, 21:41
Orbital: No, that little nugget about the Orbs is all we ever got.

boogle
10-12-2005, 23:51
Maugan Ra does indeed come from Altansar, and the original Dark Reaper shrine is located there IIRC. So possibly an Altansar list will be able to take lots of Dark Reapers?
Actually i'm not sure if he was the founder of the Reaper Aspect as it was rumoured that they didn't have a Pheonix Lord (as not all Aspects do), and Maugen Ra took that Mantle

Karhedron
11-12-2005, 13:07
Actually i'm not sure if he was the founder of the Reaper Aspect as it was rumoured that they didn't have a Pheonix Lord (as not all Aspects do), and Maugen Ra took that Mantle
In the fluff for Maugan Ra that was produced just pre-EOT, it is made clear that he is indeed the founder of the Dark Reapers and also a pupil of Asurmen. While the other Asurya crafted weapons to kill at close range, he developed the art of killing from a distance.

Orcdom
11-12-2005, 17:22
GW has ruined the art unless they redo the shurican cannon or Ra has to get a new weapon.

i guess they couldnt stick a reaper blade on a missle now could they. :rolleyes:

Steve

bigred
11-12-2005, 17:27
Slightly off topic,

All this talk of Maugen-Ra has rekindled my hope that Dark Reapers gain the Shuriken Cannon as a base weapon choice in addition to the Reaper Launcher.

It would be nice to see the squad have a secondary anti-horde loadout and I always assumed the first Reapers were equipped as such under the direct training of Maugen-Ra.

-bigred

Achilles
11-12-2005, 17:35
question...:
i missed the part where the alantsar craftworld reappeared from the EoT... does that mean its full of happy happy rejoice elves... ehm eldar, or are they chaos-touched, like the 13th company. or are their souls lost, and have they gone over to chaos? someone help me?

Icarus
11-12-2005, 17:59
I don't believe they're Chaos tainted. We know almost nothing about it, other than Maugan Ra and the Ulthwe Strike Force were somehow related to helping it remerge. The craftworld turned up at the last minute during the campaign and "ghost-like" warriors were seen to launch assaults upon the forces of Chaos. So it seems they're not corrupted, but they've suffered Emperor-knows-what.

More info: www.eyeofterror.com theres a PDF article with the whole story in.

Karhedron
11-12-2005, 18:30
Maybe the easiest change would just be to go back to them having Eldar missile launchers. Krak or plasma as demanded would make them a flexible heavy support choice rather than (yet another) dedicated anti-MEQ unit.

Wraithbored
11-12-2005, 19:11
Well a an aspect dedicated to killing massed troops(talking about 32 gaunts units here) WOULD BE nice but it would scream cheese, the star eagles make me salivate but what I was hoping for was "fluffy" aspects. Perhaps an Aspect who have dedicated themselves to the eradication of Necrons, their arch-nemesis? And perhaps Eldar could get a "fluffy" rule in relation to Slaanesh... My 2 cents anyway disect if you will...

On a second note this thread has deviated so much that perhaps the mods could move it to general discussion?

Venkh
11-12-2005, 23:17
Maybe the easiest change would just be to go back to them having Eldar missile launchers. Krak or plasma as demanded would make them a flexible heavy support choice rather than (yet another) dedicated anti-MEQ unit.

I would definately go for this as an option, i have never really liked the idea of the reaper launchers anyway.

Puffin Magician
11-12-2005, 23:51
The Craftworld turned up at the last minute during the campaign and "ghost-like" warriors were seen to launch assaults upon the forces of Chaos.So now we'll have Eldar Legion of the Damned to go along with our Eldar Grey Knights?

Troops choices equiped with reaper launchers perhaps?You can do that with the Biel-Tan list, but you are required to wear a large foam hat shaped like cheese that says "I am a powergamer" during the game.

All this talk of Maugen-Ra has rekindled my hope that Dark Reapers gain the Shuriken Cannon as a base weapon choice in addition to the Reaper Launcher.If the Shuriken Cannon were tweaked a bit I would really like this option. Something like Splinter Cannon Scourges rather than expensive and rubbish versions of Heavy Bolter Devastator Marines .

Maybe the easiest change would just be to go back to them having Eldar missile launchers.And pay 60pts per model? No thanks.

If there are [i]ever any Assassins in the Eldar Codex, it should be a 0-1 Harlequin; ultrakilly Solitaire or ultrastealthy Mime.

Orbital
12-12-2005, 00:22
If there are ever any Assassins in the Eldar Codex, it should be a 0-1 Harlequin; ultrakilly Solitaire or ultrastealthy Mime.

Personally, I'm all about the Shadowseer.

Orbital
12-12-2005, 00:23
Perhaps an Aspect who have dedicated themselves to the eradication of Necrons, their arch-nemesis?

I believe the Rangers of Alaitoc have a particular hate on for Necrons. I believe that might be why we're seeing some new Rangers this year when a possibly Necron-centric campaign may be ahead.

Orbital
12-12-2005, 00:26
I would definately go for this as an option, i have never really liked the idea of the reaper launchers anyway.

I love them, myself. The reason is: Not too strong (Str 5), not too severe with AP (3), and classifying it as a heavy 2 weapon means you won't get Reapers popping out of Wave Serpents and blasting away on the same turn. I always find it very Eldar-y to have weapons of modest strength (say 5 or less), but good AP. It has a certain elegance to it.

Icarus
12-12-2005, 11:57
Yeah I also like the Reaper Launcher. It does what its supposed to do, but isnt that good any other role. Specialised, like Eldar should be.

Venkh
12-12-2005, 14:22
@ Nuglitch

I dont know about 2nd Ed (i never played it) but in the RT days they were armed with a standard launcher with special rules for their targetting vanes. They were one of my favourite units and i was dissapointed to see them changed when i returned to the hobby.

@Puffin magician
I would say that the ELM is worth less than its current value. I would say that the basic Aspect PV would be Avenger -2. I would estimate that a sensible PV for the launcher would be 25-30 points. Hopefully GW would pitch them around this level, perhaps adding points for any new wargear they are given.

Michaelius
12-12-2005, 15:15
I like reaper launchers but reapers seriously need AS of 3+ to have some slight hope of surviving salvo from land speeder. And they are definitly not worth 37 pts per one. Come on stupid devastator with ML costs 35 and after you get 4 of them you can buy additional wounds for them at 15 pts each.

Karhedron
12-12-2005, 22:10
Maybe the easiest change would just be to go back to them having Eldar missile launchers.

And pay 60pts per model? No thanks.
I don't see why they should charge that much. A Devastator with a missile launcher costs 35 points, I see no particular reason why a Reaper with a missile launcher should be any more than they are currently.


Karhedron and Venkh: I'll third that. Weren't they armed with Eldar Missile Launchers back in 2nd edition? My memory says so. But then my memory says lots of things...
Yes, they were indeed armed with regular missile launchers in 1st and 2nd edition as well as targetting vanes that negated penalties for hitting fast moving targets. They could also take interesting ammo variants such as melta missiles etc. It would be fun to see these make a return. :D

Orbital
12-12-2005, 22:19
Thing is (and this is just personal, here): I can already take an abundance of Eldar Missile Launchers when I want them. I don't need more places to stick EMLs. What I want in Dark Reapers is a somewhat-quick-firing, long-range weapon that's just strong enough to easily carve down basic Marines. If I want to kill hordes, I'll use something else. If I want to crack tanks, I'll use something else. When I want to harass and mow down Space Marine infantry from a static, ranged firebase, I want Dark Reapers.

Ares
13-12-2005, 00:33
Slightly off topic,

All this talk of Maugen-Ra has rekindled my hope that Dark Reapers gain the Shuriken Cannon as a base weapon choice in addition to the Reaper Launcher.

It would be nice to see the squad have a secondary anti-horde loadout and I always assumed the first Reapers were equipped as such under the direct training of Maugen-Ra.

-bigred

Arm expansive Reapers with short ranged weapons like the Shuriken Cannon :confused ... why bother :rolleyes:

bigred
13-12-2005, 02:54
ares said


Arm expansive Reapers with short ranged weapons like the Shuriken Cannon :confused ... why bother

well let me count the ways...

1) Fluff reasons: Call me silly but I always like it when there is some similarity in the armament of an Aspect and its respective Phoenix Lord (you know, the one who invented the fighting style they embody). Maugen fights with a Shuriken Cannon, so the Reapers should get the option to as well. I assume, the the Reaper Launcher was developed later and adopted by the Aspect due to its even longer range.

2) 24" IS long range firepower by Aspect Warrior standards. Take a look, all of the other aspects can only fire 12" anyway.

3) A shuriken cannon loadout would be cheaper than the Reaper Launcher loadout, unless they radically upped the power of the cannon (then people would want to take it anyway)

[PURE SPECULATION DISCLAIMER]

4) Lets say that the design staff alter the cannon to be something like this:
-Shuriken Cannon: Range: 24" S:6 AP:4 Heavy 3 Rending

That would not seem so controversial by current rumour standards.

But combine it with some of the current Universal Special Rules to better reflect what the fluff describes Reapers as....( say for conjectures sake: a 3+ armour save and Slow and Purposeful)....

Boy, oh boy.... There would be a line around the block to use these guys again in both their (current) long range and (proposed) medium range support roles.

-bigred

Starchild
14-12-2005, 00:43
Arm expansive Reapers with short ranged weapons like the Shuriken Cannon :confused ... why bother :rolleyes:Because shuriken cannons were an option right from the very start, in Jes Goodwin's first Dark Reaper concept sketches. Who knows, maybe the shuriken cannon will get a range increase if the shuriken catapult's range is increased. Maybe the shuriken cannon will not be a heavy weapon, or maybe the Reapers will get some kind of equipment to enable them to move and fire with heavy weapons.

Evilgnome
14-12-2005, 01:00
Now if they made the Shurican Cannon an Assault weapon instead of Heavy...... Reapers would go from static to mobile, much more the way I imagine Eldar.

Orbital
14-12-2005, 01:29
Personally, I don't like any of your ideas. I'm going to go build myself a treehouse to live in AND NONE OF YOUR INVITED AND WON'T YOU BE SORRY THEN...

Ok, let me try that again. (clearing throat)

A lot of what you guys are suggesting seem like perfectly viable ideas, but they don't seem like Dark Reaper ideas to me. They're the most sinister of the Aspects... it makes me think death, ruthlessness, stasis...

The Reaper Launcher is the eye of the Reaper; they see through its missiles until hitting its target. As the projectile hits, they watch their quarry perish from close up. No other Aspect or unit could weild this weapon... it doesn't fit with any Eldar warrior except the Reapers.

The Reapers do not see their quarry through the Shuriken Cannon. Fluff-wise, it takes away one of the key elements of their character; it's a common heavy weapon, but they're uncommon marksmen. Additionally, the Shuriken Cannon does not fire with the power of the Reaper Launcher; though the RL has slightly less strength, the Shurikannon has neither the range nor the AP. If the Reapers weided Shurikannons then they would not need the heavy leg braces to keep them from blasting themselves off their feet every time they pulled the trigger. They would then be forced to move forward in order to position themselves to hit enemy targets (and expose themselves to a much greater danger of assault, which isn't what Reapers want). Due to the lack of leg braces, they could probably fleet of foot at that point as well.

So you'd get short-range, extremely mobile heavy weapons marksmen who don't scare Marines but can take a small chunk out of hordes and is pretty likely to get assault as a target of opportunity.

You know, a unit like that might not be such a bad idea. Well-played, they'd probably be good at harassing Orks, Nids, Guard and, when mounted in a vehicle, might be fun to race around for hit-and-run attacks.

Thing is, they don't sound like Dark Reapers to me. The dark, sinister, static dealers of death from afar would become something else entirely... and I'd miss them.

bigred
14-12-2005, 06:47
I understand your position Orbital, I just dont agree with it at all.

I'm not asking for the replacement of the Reaper Launcher, merely the ADDING of the Shuriken Cannon to the squad as a base weapon choice.

As for your points let me address them.

1) The fluff states, that the reaper helmet lets them see through the sights of the LAUNCHER, not the missiles. It is an aiming mechanism, not a 3d, whiz bang hollywood missile cam view (which would waste time that a professional soldier would be using to reposition or move onto the next target). I would assume that this helmet uplink could be added to any other heavy weapon they choose to use

2) As has been mentioned before, we are asking for old back-to-basics stuff, as some of Jes' original Reaper sketches showed them armed with shuriken cannons.

3) Please, please,please someone explain the enigma of Maugen Ra and his weapon loadout, comparing it to the aspect he supposedly founded. I think you will find that every other Phoenix Lord out there is a better match weapon-wise with their aspects that the Reapers are. And it has always stood out as odd.

4) As for the leg braces; who says shuriken cannon dont pack any less of a kick than the launchers? They are both heavy weapons after all. Guardians can only fire them on the move with the aid of grav platforms.

5) As for the shuriken cannon not being "sinister" enough, I would note that it is the primary weapon of Harlequin Death Jesters... and they are pretty sinister and "death themed".

6) Regarding the "fear factor", if they make the shuriken cannon rending, you can bet that every marine in the game will live in fear of a 3-5 man squad that can ALL carry one. Imagine if every terminator could carry an assault cannon...

-bigred

Orbital
14-12-2005, 07:44
You make good points and have corrected me on a couple of things as well. Well said. The only points I'd like to add is that a Reaper carrying a Shuriken Cannon isn't of interest to me (regardless of whether they carried them back in the day), but that's just a matter of personal taste... and I'd like to say that it's not as interesting to me to speculate on weapons that don't exist (i.e. rending shurikannons) because it gets a bit too "imaginary" for me. Having said that, if shurikannons had 48" range, I'd be a lot more willing to try them out on Reapers. For now, however, I prefer Reapers in the anti-Marine role.

Also, I don't understand the design of Maugen Ra's weapon, either. That one mystifies me.

shabbadoo
14-12-2005, 08:22
You are correct in that Orbital. Maugan Ra's weapon is out of place on him with its current stats. He should have a shuriken cannon that is Assault, and not Heavy, but for that matter I think all shuriken cannons should be Assault instead of Heavy, but maybe that is just me. ;)

Shuriken weaponry could fit well with dark reapers as they "scythe" down the enemy(if you prefer that sort of imagery), but I much prefer the Eldar Missile Launcher for its utter destruction. One hit and you are dead, unless you are some utter freak in the game. Anything humanoid and humanoid-sized, leader or not, is quick-killed by an EML. Such is not the case with a Reaper Launcher, which to my mind is simply an over-optimized weapon. The EML with its quick kill capability and also the little thought of Plasma option makes for a gruesome combination with regards to ALL enemies. The EML would make Dark Reapers truly the ultimate long range death dealers among all Eldar forces, like they were once upon a time.

The other aspects already represent infantry killers with low AP weaponry, power weapons that altogether remove armor from the equation, or with high strength weapons that will force enough saving throws to cause appreciable casualties among even heavily armored troops. Yes, only tactically inept players think that Warp Spiders are garbage, as more and more players are learning to the contrary. They were good even before the new rapid fire rules, though few would ever contemplate using them then. Practically every Eldar unit(squads and vehicles both) can accomplish one specific task, PLUS it can effectively kill even heavy infantry. There simply wasn't any need to introduce the Reaper Launcher- yet another weapon optimized for specifically killing elite infantry. The Reaper Launcher needs to go the way of the dodo.

Orbital
14-12-2005, 09:03
The thing that EML lacks is rate of fire. To me, it's less a dealer of death than it is a junker of tanks or killer of whimps; the krak missile's high strength/slow fire makes it best for cracking tanks and the plasma blast's low strength/template makes it good for clumped up little hordey guys.

The Reaper Launcher, to me, is just pure gold. I'm in love with it. Heavy 2, so the rate of fire is there but you pay for it with mobility; Str 5, so you wound Marines on a 3, which is still more sporting than a Starcannon or Shuriken Cannon, yet is still very dangerous; Ap3, which means that only the elite dealers-of-death from other armies (terminators or units with an invulnerable save) can stand up to the Reaper Launcher, while rank-and-file infantry (yes, INCLUDING the sacred Space Marine) succumbs without an armor save.

In short: The Reaper Launcher turns a Space Marine into a Guardian within 12" range of a Bolter. Nothing more serious than that, but turnabout is fair play.

But you all know these stats already, and I risk repeating myself. I love the Missile Launcher, I like (but not love) the Shuriken Cannon, I love mobility, I love versatility... but not for my Reapers. When I put those skull-headed, big-boned elves down on the table, I know it sends a message to a Marine army that says "Wipe that smile off your face, because I'll make it impossible for you to ignore these guys". With the Shurikannon, they laugh if off because of their 3+ saves. With an EML, they aren't scared of the rate of fire. With Reaper Launchers, they head for cover or die like dogs.

The Eldar army, to me, is all about having the exact right unit in the exact right place at the exact right moment and then watching the magic happen. Reapers don't assault, they don't run around, they don't pop tanks, they don't infiltrate, they don't teleport, they don't have particularly good saves or scary stats and they can't be massed effectively due to point cost. They do one thing and one thing only: They whittle down basic infantry. That's where the magic is for me.

Orbital
14-12-2005, 09:13
BTW, this reminded me of a slightly off-topic but kind of funny story.

I was in Montreal for a day with a friend for a business meeting, and we had a bit of time to kill. We decided to check out a Rogue Trader store (which shall go nameless), and it was a cool thing to do. Good selection of stuff and we had fun browsing and picking up a few things.

Behind the counter was this 18 year old goth-type girl who was *very* attractive in her dark makeup and her robe-like dress. We all know how out-of-place hot girls are behind the counter of most hobby shops, so I did a bit of a double-take when I saw her. I'm well past age 30 now, and at the time I was married, so I'm not exactly looking for "action", if you get my meaning, so as quickly as I noticed her charming appearance, I let it slip out of my head. I asked her if she had a certain color of primer, and she said she didn't. I told her I played an Eldar army and was on the hunt for it. She said that she played Eldar, too.. and then rolled a shoulder, tilted her head, looked at me in the eye with a sly smile and said "Aren't Dark Reapers the best??"

I simultaneously felt dirty and, yet, also as though I had stepped into a Nerd Twilight Zone. "Uh huh", I replied, paid for my purchases, and left... scratching my head and wondering if I had just hallucinated that.

Icarus
14-12-2005, 10:48
Hot girl? Eldar player? WHERE? :evilgrin:

People are saying Dark Reapers are fulfilling a role already taken by other aspects but I don't think thats true. They truly excel at long-range anti-infantry fire, in a way that no other aspect can match. Not to mention they have a very unique feel, and just look damned cool. I think making them mobile would be a bad idea. What Eldar don't need is another fleet-of-footing unit. Lets have some variety here!


As for the shuriken cannon not being "sinister" enough, I would note that it is the primary weapon of Harlequin Death Jesters... and they are pretty sinister and "death themed".

Actually the signature weapon of the Death Jester is the Shrieker Cannon, similar to the Shuriken but fires a form of bio-explosive ammunition which quickly turns the victims guts into a high-yield explosion. They can take the Shuriken Cannon as an alternative, along with a load of other cool guns.

my_name_is_tudor
14-12-2005, 11:24
To be honest, I think the reaper launcher is a hideous idea for dark reaperes to carry. That might sound odd, but when you think about it:

These guys are sinister, deathly figures that loom over the battlefield killing from afar. It seems to odd to me that they be armed with a missile launcher.

Missiles are crude, ugly weapons, so very very not eldar. Futhermore, they rely on smashing the opponent to bits in order to kill them, rather than sleekly slaughtering them in one graceful move.

I think something like a long range shurikan cannon, or even just a shurikan cannon as standard, would be a much more fitting weapon. From a 'style' perspective, not a rules or fluff one.

But that isn't going to change. I'd just like the reaper launcher to launch something other than just a rocket, which is such a brutish ugly concept - something the eldar definately are not.

boogle
14-12-2005, 11:34
the Avatar is also Brutish and Ugly, but still fits in with the Eldar by and large

Achilles
14-12-2005, 12:10
1) The fluff states, that the reaper helmet lets them see through the sights of the LAUNCHER, not the missiles. It is an aiming mechanism, not a 3d, whiz bang hollywood missile cam view (which would waste time that a professional soldier would be using to reposition or move onto the next target). I would assume that this helmet uplink could be added to any other heavy weapon they choose to use

-bigred

actually i believe orbital is right... in the old fluff they used to see everything the missile saw to

Achilles
14-12-2005, 12:23
@tudor....

consider though that reaper missiles are precision charges. not ugly fragmentation charges. they explode, but not as crude as frag missiles. and eldar have a normal missile launcher as well as some of the most brutal long range weapons... the D cannon and the Fire Prism... they are not elegant weapons

Sildani
14-12-2005, 14:26
Hm. Let the Reapers be. They're the only ones in the entire Eldar army who do what they do... which is deal death from long ranges, in a God-like fashion.

As far as being elegant goes, I think they're perfectly elegant... but then, when it comes to elegance in fighting, I may be a bit too philosophical. I feel It is most inelegant - even base - to win after fighting. What options do you have then? Win, or lose. It's only slightly more elegant to win whilst fighting. A few more options exist - fight, flee, win or lose. No, it is most elegant to win before any fighting takes place, at all. Then, you have all the options in the world with which to achieve victory. The possibilities may shift and slide and a million outcomes may be plucked, like petals from dying flowers.

I would prefer my enemies not see me. They eat and drink, realizing too late their larder is poisoned. They discover, at midnight, the oil over the phosphorus has finally dripped away. They set their camp, and the composite mines beneath them are activated... the urge to dominate and swagger and see the fear in my enemy's eyes... it is so uncouth. I do not seek confrontation. I seek results. It is cleaner. There is no pride, rather, there is absence of pride. That is how I see the Eldar, compared to the other armies. The other armies wish to swagger and browbeat. The Eldar wish to simply proceed to the next objective.

I'd love for the Eldar to be that sneaky, that elite. It would, however, make for a very small army, and that philosophy wouldn't translate well to 40K. Maybe I should consider USF. However, in the absence of 250+ point Eldar assassins, I'll take Dark Reapers as the best exponents of this philosophy - death from afar - along with the other shooty bits of the Eldar list. Their weapon is perfect - I see nothing wrong with missiles, they're better at this sort of thing than shuriken weapons - and I am very desirous of them to remain how they are, except for getting a 3+ armor save.

All that said, though, they're supposed to get new models for the new Codex, so who knows...

my_name_is_tudor
14-12-2005, 14:33
personally, I think they should be a small army, a very small one. The theme should be "Graceful Elite" in my opinion, so an army of excellent hand to hand fighters (high WS and special rules, not high S or T) but few of them. I'm not sure about the sneakiness bit, that sums up a couple of components in the eldar ethos to me, not the overall theme.

I think the focus needs also to be taken off them being 'the best psykers'. I'd like to see a very solid difference between seer and psyker, and farseers to become rarer. I dunno.. when I see eldar, I see them taking to the field in sort of theatrical troupes, themed round one of the aspects. Which sounds very odd, but it's hard to explain what I mean..

And are reaper launchers (in terms of style of killing) better suited to dark reapers than shuriken cannons? Sure they are where the rules are concerned, but let's face it, if a missile hits the ground just to your right, you're going to notice, no matter how small it is. Whereas I see Dark Reapers better suited to shuriken weaponry, a silent volley that darts through the target before they even know they've been shot at. Shuriken weaponry is like a sharp, precise knife in the dark, but at range - or that's how the technology hits me anyway.

Orbital
14-12-2005, 14:34
Hm. Let the Reapers be. They're the only ones in the entire Eldar army who do what they do... which is deal death from long ranges, in a God-like fashion.

Not only that, but their weapons are *just* enough to make this happen. It's not like they're flinging D Cannon shots across the table... the weaponry is, in many ways, rather modest. The RL just has the perfect combination of stats to make it terrifying for Marine infantry, but it's far from overwhelming. When the question is elegance, I find that weaponry to be so.

my_name_is_tudor
14-12-2005, 14:39
I'm not referring to the rules though, just the idea of them firing missiles, when they are supposed to be the sinister, silent killer-types..

Don't get me wrong, dark reapers are (or were, when I used to play more often) the bane of my existence, as my most frequent opponent was good ol' biel tan eldar.

Sildani
14-12-2005, 14:40
The problem is, psychic powers are all the Eldar have left. They were the shootiest army, but the Tau now have that honor. They were the oldest, but now the Necrons are. They did have the highest technology, but the Necrons and Tau are now fighting for that slot.

That means that psychic abilities are all the Eldar have left to offer that are unique to them. The whole background about their Fall and their status as a dying race, sure, but that's tough to create rules for that don't cripple the army.

Sildani
14-12-2005, 14:44
I'm not referring to the rules though, just the idea of them firing missiles, when they are supposed to be the sinister, silent killer-types..


Yes, but shuriken weapons as they stand just don't cut it. Too short-ranged. Will that change? Who knows, but make them too good, and I'll start imagining shuriken weapons as guns that fire ancient master-crafted katanas...

my_name_is_tudor
14-12-2005, 14:44
About psychic power being all the Edlar have left: thats why I think the focus needs to be on grace. I want them to be an army that is moderately fast (not DE fast), unhindered by much terrain in terms of movement, shockingly good at hitting in combat. Basically an army that smashes you in the face in it's first turn, cutting off the head of its opponent's army before they even know what's hit them.

How this would work in practice is hard to figure, more attacks, better WS, move through cover rules, rules that allow models to target characters specially in combat

combat for eldar should, IMO, be a precise dagger wound, cutting out the lead elements. They should stay in a combat for one turn, and in that one turn, destroy any major Ld elements in the opposing unit, and cause dreadful damage to morale - they should not necessarily destory the unit they charge, rather they should send it into utter dissarray with one rounds fighting..

if any of that makes sense at all.

perhaps assaults that cause pinning or Ld drops? some units being able to select their targets more easily within combats?, wider use of hit&run?

Venkh
14-12-2005, 15:01
The Reapers should be able to bring death to the enemy from a distance, no matter who they are.

No matter how well protected, no matter what your numbers, once these guys have you in their sights your time in this world has neared its end.

That is why i favour the ELM over the other weaponry. With these they would be able to crack open vehicles with precision missiles and boil the survivors off in a deadly hail of plasma. As it stands (this point was made earlier) they are too specialised.

I would like my reapers to be able to perform a long range support role for an all aspect force without the need for supporting vehicles or guardians.

The aspects should be able to stand alone as a complete fighting force and as it stands they lack this ability.

Orbital
14-12-2005, 15:25
About psychic power being all the Edlar have left: thats why I think the focus needs to be on grace.

I have to say that Sildani's point resonates with me. If they're not the most technologically advanced, if they're not the most powerful psykers, if they're not the best shooters, if they're not the fastest moving... what advantage, exactly, is going to allow for them to work "gracefully"?

Orbital
14-12-2005, 15:29
The Reapers should be able to bring death to the enemy from a distance, no matter who they are.

I agree. If I want to kill Marines at close range, I'll use Fire Dragons.


...As it stands (this point was made earlier) they are too specialised. I would like my reapers to be able to perform a long range support role for an all aspect force without the need for supporting vehicles or guardians.

Eldar Aspects aren't about versatility; they're about everyone having one very specific job and knocking the ball out of the park when they do it. If I want a long-range heavy shooter to be versatile, I'll start a Marine army and field Devastators.

Achilles
14-12-2005, 15:39
personally, I think they should be a small army, a very small one. The theme should be "Graceful Elite" in my opinion, so an army of excellent hand to hand fighters (high WS and special rules, not high S or T) but few of them. I'm not sure about the sneakiness bit, that sums up a couple of components in the eldar ethos to me, not the overall theme.

I think the focus needs also to be taken off them being 'the best psykers'. I'd like to see a very solid difference between seer and psyker, and farseers to become rarer. I dunno.. when I see eldar, I see them taking to the field in sort of theatrical troupes, themed round one of the aspects. Which sounds very odd, but it's hard to explain what I mean..


you know your talking about harlequins now dont you:D lol

Icarus
14-12-2005, 15:42
I would like my reapers to be able to perform a long range support role for an all aspect force without the need for supporting vehicles or guardians.

Its called Biel-Tan. :)

There seems to be an assumption that an Eldar Missile is crude, but I'd say they're far different from the kind of dumb-fire rockets the Imperium uses. All Eldar technology is a work of art in itself. Don't imagine a hulking rocket, imagine a brilliant bolt of light that curves through the air and slices into a tank moments before it erupts in glorious flame!

I suspect Reapers will be tweaked, not changed dramatically (note: Opinion posters own). If Altansar is added to the playable Craftworlds then it is possible that Reapers will be expanded on.

Given that Dark Reapers are getting new models, I wonder if there will be a new Maugan Ra? (pretty pretty please?? :angel: )

Venkh
14-12-2005, 15:55
[QUOTE=Icarus]Its called Biel-Tan. :)
QUOTE]

Of course you can take 6 reaper squads in Bien Tal, but the point i was making was that a pure aspect force cant take on a mechanised enemy at range (shining spear exarch excepted.)

Orbital
14-12-2005, 16:02
There seems to be an assumption that an Eldar Missile is crude, but I'd say they're far different from the kind of dumb-fire rockets the Imperium uses.

Crude weapons? How about a plasma gun that blows you up one out of every six shots? :)


Given that Dark Reapers are getting new models, I wonder if there will be a new Maugan Ra? (pretty pretty please?? :angel: )

There's no confirmation of new Reaper models. Just so you know.

Orbital
14-12-2005, 16:03
[QUOTE=Icarus]Its called Biel-Tan. :)
QUOTE]

Of course you can take 6 reaper squads in Bien Tal, but the point i was making was that a pure aspect force cant take on a mechanised enemy at range (shining spear exarch excepted.)

Yeah, but that would only be an issue if there were no other options... and it's not like you can't put those Aspects in Wave Serpents loaded with Twin-Linked Bright Lances.

Icarus
14-12-2005, 16:29
I think his point is that currently you can't make an all-aspect, no vehicle army that is effective.

Venkh
14-12-2005, 16:55
[QUOTE=Venkh]

Yeah, but that would only be an issue if there were no other options... and it's not like you can't put those Aspects in Wave Serpents loaded with Twin-Linked Bright Lances.

I could do that but i would really like to be able to field a force with nothing but aspects in it. ELM reapers would make such a force more balanced.

Anyhoo, i dont really want to get too fixated on this "all aspect" lark, i would just like to see them have the option. If you (and others) prefer reaper launchers, shuricannons with shrieker rounds, ice cream shooters thats fine by me.

lockmaster55
14-12-2005, 18:39
and it's not like you can't put those Aspects in Wave Serpents loaded with Twin-Linked Bright Lances.
So i put some 200 points of aspect warriors in a 125 point coffin. Fly it up to their lines, wait one turn whilst they proceed to destroy 325 points of my army using 3 krack missliles, they destroy my coffin (which hasn't even yet got a shot off) and because of the 'move fast" rule, some 3/4 of by sqaud is destroyed outright, before the rest are then stapled to targets so that marines can have a little fun. Great...

Icarus
14-12-2005, 19:17
Ok... you do know the rules for skimmers right? And the concept of cover? Wave Serpents are actually reasonable vehicles. Yes, if you plonked one in front of the whole enemy firing line it would probably go down, but... well any sane player just wouldn't....

Anyways, we're getting woefully off-topic...

bigred
14-12-2005, 20:59
@ orbital,

hey I dug up the original descriptions of Dark Reaper equipment from the RT era:

"Special range-finders link the weapon's view-sight directly into the Dark Reaper helmet whose receptor vanes make the Aspect warrior look even more threatening"

and some ancient rules:

"Reaper Range Finder:
The Dark Reaper's helmet is fitted out with special range finders which help the Eldar to locate and lock the Missile Launcher onto its target. This adds plus +1 onto the "to hit" like any other target, but also allows the firer to track fast moving targets. The normal negative modifier for firing at a fast moving target is therefore ignored."

I would gladly pay what they charge for reapers in the current dex if they had a special rule which ignored the "fast moving skimmer" rule. That would put those landspeders in thier place right quick.

-bigred

Orbital
15-12-2005, 03:26
@ orbital, hey I dug up the original descriptions of Dark Reaper equipment from the RT era...

Thanks for that, Bigred. It was interesting to read, too. I hope, however, you didn't post that because you thought I didn't believe your last post or anything. I quickly deferred to your presentaiton of fluff-based evidence. It was nice to see it.

Orbital
15-12-2005, 03:37
So i put some 200 points of aspect warriors in a 125 point coffin. Fly it up to their lines, wait one turn whilst they proceed to destroy 325 points of my army using 3 krack missliles, they destroy my coffin (which hasn't even yet got a shot off) and because of the 'move fast" rule, some 3/4 of by sqaud is destroyed outright, before the rest are then stapled to targets so that marines can have a little fun. Great...

I don't mean this as harshly as it sounds, but if that's your most common experience with Wave Serpents then you really have some dumbass luck.

Three krack missiles... assuming it's Marines who are shooting them, need to roll 3s. That means 2 of them will hit. Then, those two have to roll a 4 to crack the armor (and there won't be a penetrating hit, so you're lucky there). Statistically, one of two krak missiles will do that. Then you've got to roll a 5 or 6 to destroy the Wave Serpent, or roughly 33% odds. Then your Aspect warriors fall out of the Wave Serpent and, after calculating the odds based on a 4+ save, you might lose about 40% of that unit (which, incidentally, doesn't qualify as 3/4... or 75%)... and remember, that's *IF* all the one missile rolls a 5 or 6.

Find the odds too high? Maybe you should try the kind of tactics which don't leave your Wave Serpent in front of 3 missile launchers. That doesn't speak well to your prowess as a tactician.

Remember; a lot of other people here play Wave Serpents and manage to make something out of them on the playing field. Want to see what troops in a coffin really look like? Try a Dark Eldar Raider.

Orbital
15-12-2005, 03:44
I think his point is that currently you can't make an all-aspect, no vehicle army that is effective.

I think what he's saying is that an all-aspect, no vehicle army isn't effective against vehicles at range. I didn't get the impression he was dismissing that comfiguration entirely.

Orcdom
15-12-2005, 09:42
I would gladly pay what they charge for reapers in the current dex if they had a special rule which ignored the "fast moving skimmer" rule. That would put those landspeders in thier place right quick.
-bigred

your still only going to glance unless your counting on the shurican cannon or EML from the exarch.

IMHO not worth it. unless they would make them all carry EML's or shurican cannons, then your talking worth it with a combination of the 2.

Steve

Karhedron
15-12-2005, 18:42
Remember; a lot of other people here play Wave Serpents and manage to make something out of them on the playing field. Want to see what troops in a coffin really look like? Try a Dark Eldar Raider.
I have to agree with Orbital here. Most players agree that the Wave Serpent is one of the best transports in the game (although the #1 spot probably goes to the humble Ork trukk ;)). OK you cannot rush them into combat as easily as in 4th edition but you still get an A12 fast flying transport that reduces all incoming hits to a max of S8. Throw in twin-linked heavy weapon of your choice and you have a very nice versatile vehicle.

The only thing it cannot do it fly straight into the middle of massed firepower. All you need to do is use terrain with a bit of care for cover and you will rarely find survivability to be a problem.

Orbital
15-12-2005, 18:47
The only thing it cannot do it fly straight into the middle of massed firepower.

I think that'd be an unrealistic expectation, regardless. I mean, can any tank boast being able to saunter right into massed firepower without having to worry?

(BTW I support your point, Karhedron. Just adding a footnote)

Karhedron
15-12-2005, 22:34
I think that'd be an unrealistic expectation, regardless. I mean, can any tank boast being able to saunter right into massed firepower without having to worry?
The Landraider and Leman Russ can to a certain extent. Against armies like Orks or SoBs who rely on either weight of number or short ranged anti-tank weapons, these Av14 vehicles are almost invulnerable.

Almost! :D

Orbital
15-12-2005, 22:42
The odds of cracking, say, a Landraider are real low. I'd say ballparking an average chance of popping it as (*very* roughly) 10% for a typical tank-killing weapon. That's the thing about massed firepower, however: If the chance of popping that tank is, in fact, 10%... then two of the same weapon is 20%, three is 30%, etc.

Landraider or no... after a while it sure starts to make a lot less sense to wander on into a barrage of missile launchers/lascannons/bright lances/etc. You're basically just asking for it after a certain point :)

Now, having said that, I think we're talking the same language here: Just because a Wave Serpent is going to have a rough time when receiving massed firepower, there's no reason to think that it isn't a superior tank!

Venkh
15-12-2005, 22:46
Err... The Falcon?
That thing is the nearest thing i have ever seen to indestructible (monolith aside). In my current list i use 2 plus a Serpent. In my last game one got hit by 7 rokkits in a single turn, the result, crew stunned:D

I also agree that the wave serpent is an excellent transport, not quite invunerable but it will probably shrug off a couple of hits before unloading its troops.

So its not that dislike vehicles or transports, i just think that the Aspects should form an interlocking childs jigsaw thingy, currently we are missing a piece of sky.

Orbital
15-12-2005, 22:50
Venkh: Is it important to you that Aspects are able to do every single job the Eldar army will need to do? Or would you be ok with some non-aspect units being able to carry some of the responsibilty (example: Long-range tank cracking)?

Personally speaking, I don't expect Aspect warriors to do everything so long as something in the army does what they cannot.

Orbital
15-12-2005, 22:57
Oh, btw, you are 100% right about the Falcon. If you put Spirit Stones and Holo-Field on it, it becomes a nightmare.

Roll to hit? Let's be generous and say 66%.

Then roll to see if you've cracked the armor. A typical Heavy Weapon firing on the font has to roll 4, so you're down to 33%. You won't get a Penetrating Hit, so there's no point in figuring out the results of a 5 or 6.

You have to then roll a 5 or a 6 to destroy it, which reduces your odds to 11%... only (thanks to Holo-fields) you have to do it twice, so that brings it down to 5.5%.

A one in 20 chance of popping a Falcon? That sounds pretty daunting to me! And, like Venkh, I've seen it in action. More to the point: I've seen the opponent's face turn purple with rage. it gets a little frosty at that point, let me tell you. :)

Venkh
15-12-2005, 23:19
I would say "like" rather than expect, i run a mixed mechanised force at the moment that serves me really well.

I would like reapers to be able to take down armour at range.

Background aside, this is how i see the roles of the current aspects.

Avengers - Short/Mid range killers of horde troops fast movers (not as bad as people think)

Dragons - Short/Mid Range killers of heavy troops/vehicles fast movers

Banshees - H2H Killers of armoured troops (OK so scorps are generally better for MEQs but Im sure that was not the intention) fast

Scorps - H2H killers of lightly armoured troops and vehicles plus they can hide in your slippers (infiltrate)

Hawks - Light, Fast moving harrassers able to support where needed

Reapers - Long range support for the entire force

Shining spears - Sorry, dont really see what these fellows are for with their current rules

Spiders - fast moving killers of just about anything they dont like the look of.

So at short/mid range and in hand to hand aspects have the ability to take on anything, my preference would be for the "long range killer of vehicles" role that is missing to be filled by the reapers, this was one of their roles when they were first concieved and i would like to see it return.

The real weakness of this type of force would be its resilience and the fact that it would need to footslog its way around the table. But I am sure that with careful handling it would epitomise the hard hitting but fragile nature of the Eldar

Orbital
15-12-2005, 23:24
Scorpions - ...they can hide in your slippers (infiltrate)

That was funny. :)

Venkh
15-12-2005, 23:27
I've seen it in action. More to the point: I've seen the opponent's face turn purple with rage. it gets a little frosty at that point, let me tell you. :)

So was that :cool:

Sildani
15-12-2005, 23:28
Don't ask me why, but for a good long while I've had a warm, fuzzy feeling in my tummy whenever I think about the new Eldar Codex. I really think Phil Kelly will make it something great.

Again, don't ask me why I think or feel this.

Orbital
15-12-2005, 23:32
Phil Kelly is the man behind my favorite Eldar Army (Ulthwe Strike Force)... so I'm sorta excited, too.

Ares
16-12-2005, 05:09
Mmm, where was is ever written that Maugen Ra had only one type of weapon, his preferance may be the Maugetar (he likes his cc) but for his Aspect longer ranged weapons are used & taught with. Also Maugen Ra's Shrine was lost so "his" Reaper Launcher (with attached blade) was lost with it

So by your thinking all Howling Banshee's should carry executioners, web of skulls or silent deaths, etc etc

Kurai
16-12-2005, 08:47
The odds of cracking, say, a Landraider are real low. I'd say ballparking an average chance of popping it as (*very* roughly) 10% for a typical tank-killing weapon. That's the thing about massed firepower, however: If the chance of popping that tank is, in fact, 10%... then two of the same weapon is 20%, three is 30%, etc.

No, as it is chance 10 would not be 100%. Can't remember the math exactly though.

my_name_is_tudor
16-12-2005, 10:59
I'm horrendously excited about the next eldar dex, I reckon it might be the biggest codex release ever.. or the most highly anticipate/with the coolest outcome. I honestly can't wait.

I don't even collect eldar, but the promise of the new 'dex is making me want to already!

Sildani
16-12-2005, 13:17
About Maugan Ra's weapon...

Is it possible that the Reaper Launcher is a relatively new invention, not around when the Harvester of Souls started to train others? Is it also not possible that, as Aspect Warriors and Exarchs must wear their Aspect armor to use their art, so too must the Phoenix Lords? Thus, although Maugan Ra trains others to use the launcher, he himself prefers the shuriken cannon, used by him over the millennia.

Another possibility is, it's a second edition model. Back then, the shuriken cannon was a sight better than it is now, and able to fire Shrieker rounds. Thus, they sculpted Maugan Ra with it - also because it looks damn cool with that scythe-executioner blade - and they haven't ever resculpted him, or the other Phoenix Lords.

Icarus
16-12-2005, 14:37
Also, the Reaper Launcher is a heavy weapon designed for laying down masses of firepower. Maugan Ra however likes to blow stuff up and then charge into a brawling combat. The Maugetar seems to suit this well, a lighter Shuriken Cannon that can be fired on the move (by a Phoenix Lord) fits the bill better.

Ares
18-12-2005, 03:45
As stated above :P

Im very wary of the Eldars future, consider what they have done to them & the High Elves in the past.

Orbital
18-12-2005, 04:07
Consider what they've done with the Wood Elves. That should give you a little ray of hope.

Ares
19-12-2005, 02:39
Yes, it does give me a little ray of hope, but the dark planet wide storm-clouds around it tend to dampen it :(

jigplums
21-12-2005, 00:01
well the maugetar used to be a serious piece of kit in 2nd edition. not only was it a mosterous marine killer at range but it was also pretty damned good in cc too. i remember a game where a guy i played had a khorne chaos lord[back when they all doubled their attacks *shudder*] and he forgot to charge Maugen Ra but i sportingly let him do it and the combat etc at the end of the turn. Maugan Ra had a handy little washbag full of combat drugs and popped a few pills. A few swishes later and it was on dead khorne lord.

jigplums
21-12-2005, 00:03
Peopl seem split about Darkreapers as to weather they should have EML's or stick with reaper launchers or indead have shuriken cannon options.

with the first 2 how about making giving all reapers an eml with reaper missiles[as they are know] with the options to buy Krak, and Plasma missile upgrades.

Hellebore
21-12-2005, 09:44
Peopl seem split about Darkreapers as to weather they should have EML's or stick with reaper launchers or indead have shuriken cannon options.

with the first 2 how about making giving all reapers an eml with reaper missiles[as they are know] with the options to buy Krak, and Plasma missile upgrades.


This is a fix I have always liked regarding the EML. At the moment it is way too expensive for its limited use.

By giving it 3 missile types you make it much more flexible and it becomes competition for other heavy weapon types- it can destroy both light and heavy infantry, and can take on vehicles as well.

giving the DR one of these WOULD make them more powerful, and they would probably cost more as well.

hellebore

Venkh
21-12-2005, 10:04
I like the idea of upgrades but the cost could be kept down by giving players the freedom to select from all 3.

I dont think they should neccessarily cost more, I think it is reasonable to argue that they are overpriced in the current list.

Currently they are nothing more than a dire avenger with the cat replaced with a reaper launcher, i dont see how this justifies their current cost.

Rgds

Flame Boy
21-12-2005, 12:21
with the first 2 how about making giving all reapers an eml with reaper missiles[as they are know] with the options to buy Krak, and Plasma missile upgrades.

Y'know, that's a really good idea. Perhaps if that is too effective you could either make it so that a Reaper squad can only pick one type of the three missiles, or every Reaper model in the army has to carry the same ammo, as two workaround solutions.

I personally don't see a problem with Reapers being able to fire all three kinds of missiles, but those are two possible ways to correct any potential imbalances.

Failing that, it could be part of Eldar craftworld doctrines that Reapers could have different ceremonial weapons on different craftworlds? If the old Reaper Exarch could stomp around with a shuriken pistol and a web of skulls (and he only had a movement value of 4 back then), then I'm sure swapping between a smaller barrage of Reaper missiles or a single anti-armour/anti infantry missile is feasible.

krashovrload
21-12-2005, 13:31
++

A bit rusty on the Shuriken Cannon stats but I am sure I remember a time when it wasnt a move and fire (heavy) weapon...

Prehaps they can have that back - I like the idea of a fleet footed heavy support section - may be they could win a few more supporters then..?

++

jigplums
21-12-2005, 16:15
my theory would be that reaper ammo comes as standard and Krak and Plasma are upgrades, if they upped their save to 3+ and gave them slow and purposeful then i think their current cost would be pretty much spot on

Icarus
21-12-2005, 17:38
I don't like the idea actually. Eldar, and especially aspect warriors are supposed to be specialised. By giving them access to a range of different ammo types you are making them powerful against several kinds of very different opponents. They ain't space marines! I think the Reaper Launcer is pretty good as is.

Easy E
22-12-2005, 23:26
Back in the Day (RT Compilation book, the Yellow One) Reapers were THE aspect for long range fire support. They came standard with the EML. Trust me, they ruled the battlefield then, even in groups of three. They specialized in popping tanks. Combined with krak missiles and they forced LD tests on marines all the time. Plasma was the bane of lighter infantry as well. Of course, this was before Falcons and wave serpents came around. The Dark Reaper also had a 3+ save. I would love to see this come back to the Dark Reaper. The chnages in the recent edition really put me off of them. To much of a marine killer only unit and not the master's of long range fire support of old.

I hope we see the plastic Wraithlord and Warwalker. Both of those models have been around since RT days as well (The red Compendium book that has the dreadnaught design rules) as the original Eldar Dreads were the same as the ones now, except for the resculpted weapons.

Ares
23-12-2005, 04:16
Reapers with 3+ armour -
RL with optional ammo types -
Eldar vehicals with Assualt Ramps -
Eldar vehicals that can hold table quaters -
Shuriken catapult/Cannon with "range" -


All seem very reasonable ideas to me....

Orbital
23-12-2005, 04:38
Reapers with 3+ armour -
RL with optional ammo types -
Eldar vehicals with Assualt Ramps -
Eldar vehicals that can hold table quaters -
Shuriken catapult/Cannon with "range" -


All seem very reasonable ideas to me....

So basically all things which make Eldar stronger? :eyebrows:

Venkh
23-12-2005, 09:56
Reaper stuff sounds reasonable to me, brings then back to what they were originally conceived as.

Vehicle stuff - Im not in favour of either of these. Assault ramps on our tough vehicles would make them ridiculously overpowered and the rule for dedicated trasports should be universal of all armies or scrapped altogether.

Shurikat range increase is IMO neccessary with a corresponding increase in points, 24" on the cannon is perfectly adequete.

ferrus
24-12-2005, 17:33
The shuriken range could be 18"...

Tom
24-12-2005, 18:16
The shuriken range could be 18"...



I know no person alive who doesn't want that. Either to improve their army, make their opposition more competitive or just get certain rogue elements amongst the Eldar playing groups to be quiet for once.

I think there's a very good chance of it because for one, it's pretty much #1 on the lists of things that could be done to the Eldar for every 40K player on the planet.

Karhedron
26-12-2005, 10:31
So basically all things which make Eldar stronger? :eyebrows:
I kinda agree here. The Eldar do not need making stronger, all they need is rebalancing so that some of the underpowered units are more competative. Also even I am reluctantly forced to admit that there are some units that could do with either a slightly higher points cost or a little less punch.

The current Eldar army is a codex of two halves. I would like a list where all units are equally valuable and you can choose an army based on what units you like without compromising your ability to win on the tabletop.

Orbital
26-12-2005, 10:34
The current Eldar army is a codex of two halves. I would like a list where all units are equally valuable and you can choose an army based on what units you like without compromising your ability to win on the tabletop.

This seems to be the modus operandi of Games Workshop with their codices these days, so I have high hopes for this to be the case.

Sadly, that also means that I can no longer leave my Jetbikes, Shining Spears, Swooping Hawks and Avatar gathering dust for much longer, using the excuse "Well, if the rules were good, I'd paint them and use them!" :)

TomKamakazi
26-12-2005, 12:28
Eldar vehicals with Assualt Ramps -


Never, ever going to happen.
The waveserpent-full-of-various-kinds-of-death rush is slightly more expensive, but still as bad as the rhino rush as a no-brainer win win win trick. The only reason it was never complained about much was the limited availability of waveserpent models in 3rd eddition.
Now I'd love to be able to affect my dissmounting aspect warriors with the serpent's energy field, kustom force field style, but I'm not holding my breath for that one




Eldar vehicals that can hold table quaters -


er...
Vypers, Falcons, Warwalkers, Fire Prisms?

Ghal Maraz
26-12-2005, 15:50
I think he means Serpent and, actually, I support that request.

Ares
28-12-2005, 23:50
Thanks Ghal Maraz :angel:

Farseerixirvost
29-12-2005, 17:25
Wow. I LOVE the rumor mill. Only made it through 5 pages of this thread and by that point, someone at some point, somewhere along the line, stated that Every Eldar model in the game was getting redone - and in plastic for that matter.

Anybody realize how insane that is? From a business standpoint, it is impossible.

I bet a whole lot less than people expect will be redone. I can't see GW redoing any of the aspects (YOU may not like how they look, but they work), especially the ones redone with the current codex (scorpions, banshees, dragons, dark reapers). I can't see GW redoing any of the vehicles except Walkers. I doubt we'll see much in the way of new Seers and/or Warlocks, especially after the Seer Box came out w/ the Eye of Terror codex. New Bikes? Probably not. New Guardians? Probably not.

So, IMO, definately new Rangers; probably new Walkers and Wraithlords; maybe Dire Avengers as 100% plastic; and beyond that, "unlikely".


{ps. hope my 2nd post here at WarSeer doesn't offend folks to much}

Karhedron
29-12-2005, 17:41
I can't see GW redoing any of the aspects (YOU may not like how they look, but they work), especially the ones redone with the current codex (scorpions, banshees, dragons, dark reapers).
I am afraid I can contradict you on that one. Banshees and Dark Reapers are definitely getting redone, another couple of aspects are also a possibility. There is also a new plastic Wraithlord coming out that bears more than a passing resemblance to the FW Revnant.

Eldar are not getting completely redone, nor will everything be in plastic but there will certainly be plenty of new minis coming along.

Icarus
29-12-2005, 17:44
Well thanks for your "business viewpoint", which slams people for speculating and then goes on to... speculate...

Personally I'll just listen to info from reliable sources like Brimstone. Although discussing possibilities with people is fun!

Orbital
29-12-2005, 18:44
Wow. I LOVE...Every Eldar model in the game was getting redone - and in plastic for that matter.

Anybody realize how insane that is? From a business standpoint, it is impossible.

I also found the claim to be hard to believe, but I'm going to reserve judgement based upon two things:

1. This info came directly from the Sabbat event which, in itself, doesn't make it conclusive... but it carries just a bit more weight than some nutjob saying it just because he wants it to be true.
2. The Fantasy Wood Elf line was recently redone from the ground up with awesome results.

My personal guess is that it'll get partly remade, with a generous amount of new sculpts (more than, say, the recent Marine or Tyranid releases), but you're right; remaking the entire line (with the exception of the Falcon, Vyper, Wave Serpent and Guardians - as the original poster clarified) would be a very big investment on GW's part.

Orbital
29-12-2005, 18:45
I am afraid I can contradict you on that one. Banshees and Dark Reapers are definitely getting redone, another couple of aspects are also a possibility. There is also a new plastic Wraithlord coming out that bears more than a passing resemblance to the FW Revnant

I don't know how to ask this without sounding like a dick, so please forgive how it reads and trust that I mean no offense: What are your sources? When you use words like "definitely", it suggests that there's incontrovertable supporting evidence. So... what is it? Where did you get that confirmation?

Malakai
29-12-2005, 18:59
The nature of the sources for some of the rumour posters prevents them from divulging the sources. The only thing that you can do is to watch and wait and see which posters seem accurate and which ones don't. Karhedron is one of our most reliable rumour posters and I trust him to report what he hears accurately.

-Malakai

Dark Muse
29-12-2005, 19:53
I don't know how to ask this without sounding like a dick, so please forgive how it reads and trust that I mean no offense: What are your sources? When you use words like "definitely", it suggests that there's incontrovertable supporting evidence. So... what is it? Where did you get that confirmation?


Orbital, without trying to sound like a dick myself might I suggest you stop asking this question? If they wanted to reveal their sources they would have.

Hang around long enough and you will be able to detemine who has good sources and who does not. Anything claiming to be heard from a RedShirt in the know is about as useful as rumours collected from a Girl Scout selling cookies. But Karhedron, BrimStone, Mad Doc, and a few others have proven reliable over time. GW takes leaks pretty seriously though so asking sources is a little forward.

I realize you are a journalist(?), but this is not a news source. It is a fan board where a few members have inside information. Asking the question as to source once or twice I can see. You have been provided the same reason for the lack of attribution multiple times though. You can accept the reason or discount the rumours as unsubstantiated. On the other hand would you be kind enough not to put the members in the uncomfortable position of being forced to either ignore a question as to the veracity of their statements or reveal the source of information potentially to the detriment of the source?

cspo
29-12-2005, 19:57
warseer, and portent in the past, have always turned out to be reliable GW rumours resource pages, and it's fun to know that you're in an online community that contains some of the people that are actually making (and/or helping make) the games we play. In P.. Warseer we trust!

on topic, I hope they do decide to make those plastic multi-aspect kits. reapers and spiders, scorpions and dragons, banshees and hawks. New bikes would give way to new spears.

It all depends on how the codex is redone, really. DIY craftworlds, Autarchs etc.. Multi-aspect kits would leave tonnes of bits for converting exarchs and autarchs, making eldar armies even more aesthetically pleasing and unique. It's as easy as basing them on a guardian re-hash, including more female bodies.

or maybe is isn't.

who knows? that's just MHO

t-tauri
29-12-2005, 20:19
Orbital, without trying to sound like a dick myself might I suggest you stop asking this question? If they wanted to reveal their sources they would have.
I realize you are a journalist(?), but this is not a news source.
And if you are a journalist you surely recognise the need to protect the source(s) of potentially sensitive information? Though I'm sure most of the leaks from the reliable sources on here are sanctioned to some extent by GW as the first stage in the marketing process.

Karhedron
29-12-2005, 20:36
It all depends on how the codex is redone, really. DIY craftworlds, Autarchs etc.. Multi-aspect kits would leave tonnes of bits for converting exarchs and autarchs, making eldar armies even more aesthetically pleasing and unique.
Most of my current info concerns models rather than rules, the last I heard they were not planning to do DIY craftworlds as such. The reasoning was that there are far fewer Craftworlds than there are Chapters of Marines (for example) so a "create you own" system was not envisaged. Rather you would get 5 or 6 styles (plus vanilla) which allow you play either the archtypal craftworld or a variant with a similar fighting style. However this info is fairly old so I do not know if it is still valid.

I have not heard anything to suggest that we will be getting multi-aspect kits (although I have not heard that we definitely won't either). My guess is that Aspects will stay metal for now with several variant Autarch models produced (like the new Marine Chaplains). This is just speculation on my part though.

Elusive71
29-12-2005, 20:38
I've posted this thought before, but it seems like it wouldn't be *too* difficult to make a universal aspects set, at least for some of the aspects.

Just for the sake of example, Reapers and Fire Dragons, both of which are shooting aspects, and could therefore use the same poses, could be included in one box, with various head/weapon options to make either or both, not unlike the Tyranid Gaunts box.

I don't recall who it was, but back when the plastic guardian set came out, someone converted some excellent aspect warriors using plastic guardian bodies. It proved to me that the aspects could easily be made from the same stock kit with the appropriate add-ons.

Sildani
29-12-2005, 20:59
All right, here's what's going through my head; Karhedron, Brimstone, Engel et al. feel free to confirm/debunk.

New Eldar metal models:
Autarch (with a couple variants)
Dark Reapers
Howling Banshees
Rangers
Striking Scorpions?
Warp Spiders?
Wraithguard?

New Eldar plastics:
Dire Avengers
Wraithlord
War Walker
Fire Prism?

Models with (?) after their names I've only heard rumors of once or twice.

Is my memory correct?

Malakai
29-12-2005, 21:13
New Eldar metal models:
Autarch (with a couple variants)
Dark Reapers
Howling Banshees
Rangers
Striking Scorpions?
Warp Spiders?
Wraithguard?

New Eldar plastics:
Dire Avengers
Wraithlord
War Walker
Fire Prism?

Models with (?) after their names I've only heard rumors of once or twice.

Is my memory correct?

The only aspect warriors they should keep should be the Fire Dragons and the Swooping Hawks. Warp Spiders are still decent enough, but are old. Though I won't be too put off if they are kept current.

I'm more than a little nervous that we havn't gotten any confirmations that the Striking Scorpians are being redone. Surely that would have been the first we heard of?


-Malakai

Orbital
29-12-2005, 22:50
The nature of the sources for some of the rumour posters prevents them from divulging the sources. The only thing that you can do is to watch and wait and see which posters seem accurate and which ones don't. Karhedron is one of our most reliable rumour posters and I trust him to report what he hears accurately.

He probably could have answered for himself, actually.

Orbital
29-12-2005, 22:51
Orbital, without trying to sound like a dick myself might I suggest you stop asking this question? If they wanted to reveal their sources they would have.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to stop asking how people know stuff. There's no reason not to ask.

Orbital
29-12-2005, 22:54
The only aspect warriors they should keep should be the Fire Dragons and the Swooping Hawks.

I think that the Swooping Hawks are absolutely beautiful, but I think the new codex will likely see them carrying something other than Las Blasters, as that's sort of a hold-over from 2nd ed. If the weapons change, the models probably will as well. Take heart, at least, in the fact that if the models do change then the next ones will likely be gorgeous as well.

Dark Muse
29-12-2005, 23:08
I'm sorry, but I'm not going to stop asking how people know stuff. There's no reason not to ask.

Ah, but a reason has been given. It is inconsiderate at best, rude and insulting at worst. You have been reptitively been given the reason but obvioulsly you do not feel this sufficient. Again, given a little time and patience you will find through experience who has reliable information and who does not.

As a compromise would you mind PMing the person instead? This way at least it saves a repeat or variation of this off topic conversation.

Regardless of your decision I will leave it be in the future however. Sorry for taking the thread off topic.

Orbital
30-12-2005, 00:10
Ah, but a reason has been given.

The reason people want me to stop asking for sources always boils down to the same thing: "Please don't ask questions about things that I, personally, don't need answers for". And, no... it's not a good reason.

You're not the first person I've run into on Warseer who wants me to stop asking what someone's sources are, no matter how politely I do it. I don't understand how it's rude or inappropriate, but what can I say? I'll stop asking.

Inquizitor
30-12-2005, 03:23
All right, here's what's going through my head; Karhedron, Brimstone, Engel et al. feel free to confirm/debunk.

New Eldar metal models:
Autarch (with a couple variants)
Dark Reapers
Howling Banshees
Rangers
Striking Scorpions?
Warp Spiders?
Wraithguard?

New Eldar plastics:
Dire Avengers
Wraithlord
War Walker
Fire Prism?

Models with (?) after their names I've only heard rumors of once or twice.

Is my memory correct?

I would add a few to your list of New Eldar plastics:
Jetbike --- riders
Guardians --- small rework, maybe Dire Avengers in same box
Heavy Weapon Platform and Support Platform

Hellebore
30-12-2005, 04:20
The reason people want me to stop asking for sources always boils down to the same thing: "Please don't ask questions about things that I, personally, don't need answers for". And, no... it's not a good reason.

You're not the first person I've run into on Warseer who wants me to stop asking what someone's sources are, no matter how politely I do it. I don't understand how it's rude or inappropriate, but what can I say? I'll stop asking.


Unfortunately, no one is going to give you their sources even if what they say IS true. You work in journalism yes?, I've seen all the movies regarding protecting ones sources ;)

The closest you will get is "A guy at head office I go clubbing with" or sumsuch.

Of course, we of the more cynical persuasion would ask YOU what your credentials are, if only becuase you could be a GW megaspy attempting to catch out all those people leaking information:D

And even in the event you actually get a name, unless you get confirmation from that person specifically to verify the information, all you have is name dropping.

hellebore

Orbital
30-12-2005, 04:39
I already said I wasn't going to ask for sources anymore, and I'm not going to subject anyone else to that discussion. Let's get back on topic.

Lord Humungus
30-12-2005, 07:50
I have to say, when I started seeing the previews for new Tau stuff, I became quite excited. I started poking around for more rumors, and now I start reading stuff about the Eldar, and I can barely remember who the Tau are.

I've been an Eldar player for ages, and the prospect of finally having the codex updated is wonderful news. An now that we're actually seeing some model leaks, I'm going to have a real hard time waiting for most of 2006 to see them.

I seriously doubt we'll be seeing anyting in the way of a new aspect. If we do, it will probably be in the form of the Star Eagles people have theorized about. I think most of the attention will be spent on balancing the army, and improving the sculpts they already have.

Here's some of the stuff I foresee (yeah, some of this is a little hopeful):
1. New Rangers. no guessing on this one, we've seen 'em!

2. 18" range for shuricats - seems very likely.

3. T7 or serious point hike for the Wraithlord, hopefully not both. Something has to be done, and I'm sure it will be. New model would be slick.

4. Plastic warwalker. So much talk about this, and so few models need to be redone more than this one. Like to see some more distinction between this model and the wraithlord.

5. Fully plastic versions of all the currently hybrid kits (Storm Guardians, Dire Avengers, Shreiker Jetbike, Fire Prism). This makes a lot of sense considering GW's and everyone else's disdain for hybrid kits.

6. Resculpts for Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders, and possible Dark Reapers and Howling Banshees. More than anything, I hope for them to fix the dragons and scorpions. I know I'm in the minority here, but I find the 3rd ed dragon sculpts to be almost completely inferior to the originals. I would give any of these aspects a 50/50 chance. Fairly certain they won't all get redone.

7. A beefing up of the Avatar to greater demon-esque stature. It's not that he's a complete puss now, but man he is a shadow of his former self. Obviously he would be far more expensive, but that's fine. Who knows if they'll do this.

8. Something new. I know this is pretty vague, but all the other armies have been getting new stuff so far. I really doubt this will be a new aspect. It will likely be either a vehicle coming over from FW or the "Autarchs" I've been hearing murmurs about. Autarchs sound like a cool concept, but for them to be a well supported HQ option miniature-wise, it would need to be a plastic kit along the lines of the SMurf commander kit. Not completely outside the realm of possibility, but there are probably other, higher priorities for the Eldar.

Orbital
30-12-2005, 08:00
That was really enjoyable to read, LH. I hope you start posting more around here!

Lord Humungus
30-12-2005, 08:13
Thanks. I'm sure I'll be posting more stuff here. This seems like a rather lively rumor area!

Farseerixirvost
30-12-2005, 13:57
Well thanks for your "business viewpoint",

You're absolutely welcome!




which slams people for speculating and then goes on to... speculate...

So how is it that I "slammed" people for speculating? I simply stated that after five pages, someone, somwhere along the line, had speculated that everything was being redone. I did not slam pepole for speculating - if I had, I'd have said "you people are stupid/idiots for speculating!" Now, THAT'S slamming someone.

I too, enjoy speculating. Hence why I "[went] on to...speculate"


Personally I'll just listen to info from reliable sources like Brimstone. Although discussing possibilities with people is fun!

Agreed. So will I, despite your less-than-warm welcome to the new person on the block. :mad:

**edit** fixed last paragraph.

Venkh
30-12-2005, 14:14
@Farseerixirvost

Welcome to Warseer (even though i am not an official welcomer)

I would edit out the last paragraph of your post there mate, while i think you were given a bit of a roughing up by Icarus, that does not justify calling him an "appendige".

Dont let people ruffle your feathers, i someone offends you just report their post to a mod and they will be dealt with.

Icarus
30-12-2005, 15:08
Farseerixirvost: If I was less-than-warm, it was because you seemed to be dragging up something said 15 pages back just to be sarcastic at them. You don't get to be exempt from criticism for being new. Lets drop it, this thread isn't here for us to flame each other. PM me if you really think there's an issue.

*shifting back on-topic*


7. A beefing up of the Avatar to greater demon-esque stature. It's not that he's a complete puss now, but man he is a shadow of his former self. Obviously he would be far more expensive, but that's fine. Who knows if they'll do this.


Nice summary, Humungus. I definately agree on the Avatar issue, right now he is not very strong, although admittedly quite cheap. As such he tends to be used as a fire magnet to distract from Wraithlords and such, not taken because a player wants a CC monster. I think he could use some real toughening up (and subsequent points increase), especially in light of how monstrous creatures play out in 4th ed.

I find the rumours that he will become a special character very appealing, as it is definately more fluffy. I'd also like to see some special rules and/or wargear that reflect the truly awesome power inherent to an Avatar. I think the Avatar in Dawn of War was much more like it, a burning roaring GOD! :evilgrin:

bryankia
30-12-2005, 17:51
A quick thought on the Avatar.

Yes I think it is fair to say they will re-do him.

I like him as he stands right now for the point cost. I don't think he needs much to "fix" him. While I know the point cost would have to go up I think all he needs is 3+/4+ save and Fleet. Eldar are fast, some daemons are fast, why not make the Avatar fast. These small changes would alter him on the battle field incredibly. As far as fluff goes. I would give his weapon a short ranged attack and make all Eldar in 12" fearless.

Just my musings
Bryan

Does anyone think they will re-sculpt the Avatar? I like him as is.

Karhedron
30-12-2005, 18:23
All right, here's what's going through my head; Karhedron, Brimstone, Engel et al. feel free to confirm/debunk.

New Eldar metal models:
Autarch (with a couple variants)
To the best of my knowledge the new Autarch will be metal. I do not know if there will be variants, that was speculation on my part based on the fact that they did several variant chaplains for BTs.


Dark Reapers
Howling Banshees
Rangers
Striking Scorpions?
Warp Spiders?
Wraithguard?
Some Aspects are definitely getting redone while others are definately being left untouched. That much I can confirm. Banshees and Reapers have mentioned by others as being likely to be redone but I have no solid info myself.

Rangers are definitely getting redone as there are already some pics of the new models here courtesy of Brimstone I believe.


New Eldar plastics:
Dire Avengers
Wraithlord
War Walker
Fire Prism?
I can confirm both the War Walker and the Wraithlord but I am not certain about the Dire Avengers. I only heard the Fire Prism rumour once myself so I would take it with a large grain of salt.


I'm more than a little nervous that we havn't gotten any confirmations that the Striking Scorpians are being redone. Surely that would have been the first we heard of?My source in the studio told that "The aspects that are getting redone are not neccessarily the ones people assume will get done". Pretty cryptic but I am starting to wonder if they are actually planning to keep the current Scorps. :(

Oh well. Looks like I will just stick with my 1st edition Jes Goodwin models.


Does anyone think they will re-sculpt the Avatar? I like him as is.
I don't know anything on that score, if you like the current model then there is no need to buy a new one even if they do redo him. Personally I am kinda hoping that FW do a version of him on the same degree of awesomeness as their new Greater Daemon models. :angel:

Brimstone
30-12-2005, 18:28
Rangers are definitely getting redone as there are already some pics of the new models here courtesy of Engel I believe.

Oh thanks a lot :mad:

Lord Humungus
30-12-2005, 18:36
I'm fairly certain that GW will do something to the Avatar. How far they will go is the question. Will it be an ever-so-slight modification like you suggested? Will he be put on par with the Bloodthirster? Or is it time for the Khaine to show up the Nightbringer?

While I would love for the Avatar to be a badass on the level of the Nightbringer, that would probably be a really bad move on the part of GW. They really should not have made a character like that.

What I do hope, is that they make the Avatar more of a h2h monster than the Wraithlord. And hopefully they do it without nerfing the Wraithlord. As it is, they have the same number of attacks, but the WL is way harder to kill and punches with devastating effect (instant death!). The Avatar may hit slightly more often, but that's about all he's got going on.

Is GW going to do a resculpt? I don't see why. While his sculpt is an old one, it's one that was done well for the most part. Maybe they can redo his hairdo. I just think there are models that need more attention. It would be interesting to see what they came up with, though.

Like everything else for the Eldar, this is going to be a waiting game. A really really really long waiting game. All I can say is that they have better *******' come out in 2006.

Karhedron
30-12-2005, 19:43
Oh thanks a lot :mad:
Whoops! Sorry Brimstone. :o

Post edited to ensure credit given where credit is due. No hard feelings I hope. :angel:

Orbital
30-12-2005, 20:11
Farseerixirvost: I want to chime in as well and let you know that if I caused any offense, it wasn't intended. Please stick around and make your thoughts - even your dissenting ones - known.

Orbital
30-12-2005, 20:13
Whoops! Sorry Brimstone. :o

Post edited to ensure credit given where credit is due. No hard feelings I hope. :angel:

That kind of made me laugh though; it reminded me of a recording of John Lennon in concert, and he introduced the song "Come Together" by saying "Here's a song I used to do with my old band... The Rolling Stones".

Maybe that's just my own private Idaho. :)

Nexto
30-12-2005, 20:33
EDIT:Sorry, OT : /

Orbital
30-12-2005, 21:31
EDIT:Sorry, OT : /

Apologies for furthering the OT thing: Nexto, I really like that avatar. Where did you get it?

AgentZero
30-12-2005, 22:29
They already have too many aspects as it is. So many in fact GW didn't know what to do with them and ended up making them redundant with other units (Scorpions and Banshees, Avengers and Gaurdians, Spears and Jetbikes/Vypers, etc).

They certainly do not have enough Aspects!

Scorpions and Banshees do not function the same way. So to lump together as "one" unit is just plain wrong.
Banshees are lithe and quick as the breeze , Scorpions get in your face and break your jaw.

Dire Avengers are not Guardians either. I ain't seen no Guardians with Defend or Dire Swords.
Guardians are the Minutemen of old , citizens standing up for their people , Dire Avengers are more then just a militi , they are the backbone of the Eldar armed forces (fluffwise). Dire Avengers are the most numerous Aspect , it's like joining the Army.

Spears are like cavalry. Vypers are not.

Each Aspect performs a function in the Eldar arsenal, they're not different colored clones of one another.
Remove an Aspect and you kill the diversity and flavor of the race.

Next you're going to tell me Farseers and Warlocks are the same too:rolleyes:
WraithLords and WarWalkers are redundant:eyebrows:

Embrace the diversity and flavor of the race. They're NOT Marines.

Lord Humungus
31-12-2005, 00:51
Here's my idea for a new aspect:

Burrowing Badgers

25 points each. +15 for an Exarch.

Use the same stats as normal aspects.
All are armed with lightning claws.
Can deep strike (from their mad burrowing skills).

Exarch options:
Claws of destiny (+10): combine rules for claws and dire sword.

Dastardly Digger (+35): Each turn, while the BB squad is waiting to deep strike, they can place a sinkhole template on a d6 role of 5+. Place a large blast template in the same way as an orbital barrage, and units caught can't move or shoot on their next turn.

Fury of the Badger (+15): same as feel no pain.

GodofWarTx
31-12-2005, 01:09
Here's my idea for a new aspect:

Burrowing Badgers

25 points each. +15 for an Exarch.

Use the same stats as normal aspects.
All are armed with lightning claws.
Can deep strike (from their mad burrowing skills).

Exarch options:
Claws of destiny (+10): combine rules for claws and dire sword.

Dastardly Digger (+35): Each turn, while the BB squad is waiting to deep strike, they can place a sinkhole template on a d6 role of 5+. Place a large blast template in the same way as an orbital barrage, and units caught can't move or shoot on their next turn.

Fury of the Badger (+15): same as feel no pain.




Carl Spackler: License to kill gophers by the government of the United Nations. Man, free to kill gophers at will. To kill, you must know your enemy, and in this case my enemy is a varmint. And a varmint will never quit - ever. They're like the Viet Cong - Varmint Cong. So you have to fall back on superior intelligence and superior firepower. And that's all she wrote.

Lord Humungus
31-12-2005, 01:16
Carl Spackler: License to kill gophers by the government of the United Nations. Man, free to kill gophers at will. To kill, you must know your enemy, and in this case my enemy is a varmint. And a varmint will never quit - ever. They're like the Viet Cong - Varmint Cong. So you have to fall back on superior intelligence and superior firepower. And that's all she wrote.

I love that movie! (sorry about being OT)

Sildani
31-12-2005, 01:22
Uh... uh.... where'd that come from?

Karhedron: thanks for the recap.

Dark Muse
31-12-2005, 03:23
Uh... uh.... where'd that come from?

Karhedron: thanks for the recap.

Caddyshack

Storm Hunters
31-12-2005, 17:20
i think that the persent reper lancher fits there immage pritty well. Just think of it like it is on DOW, where they fire litraly hundreds of small high vollocity projectiles, which sythe down marines. That is my image of dark reapers any way. BUt i do give my exarch an Elder missile lancher with fast shot. it may be 233points for a squad of five with this exarch, but when given cover and fortune, they tend to make there points back and take out a squad a turn, weather it is MEQ, light infentry or light vercles.

Lord Humungus
01-01-2006, 12:28
I too have been pleased with the 3rd edition reapers. I wouldn't mind having the option of outfitting them with different weaponry, but they really don't suffer from not having the option now. I really like getting 2 shots a turn with anti-marine weaponry. The only thing they could upgrade to that would really do a better job of slaughtering SMurfs would be starcannons, and it's not like the Eldar have trouble fielding enough starcannons. ;)

Orcdom
01-01-2006, 20:56
I don't recall who it was, but back when the plastic guardian set came out, someone converted some excellent aspect warriors using plastic guardian bodies. It proved to me that the aspects could easily be made from the same stock kit with the appropriate add-ons.

i saw these as well but i cant seem to relocate the pictures, they were posted on old portent but have not seen them or the latter versions that were supposedly in progress, but the warp spiders he did from guardians were sweet.
Steve

The Zed
02-01-2006, 13:25
Not entialy on topic but; I was always confused by the fact that storm squad gardians are ex aspect warriors but have a lower WS & BS. Any reason for this?

charlie_c67
02-01-2006, 13:55
It's because they don't train to the same extent as aspect warriors anymore.

Sildani
02-01-2006, 22:57
Also because that some techniques require the Aspect armor to use. If you dont wear the armor, you can't perform that particular kata to its full, for example.