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AdmiralDick
09-02-2009, 19:47
hey guys, we've been having a number of debates that have led me to want to see some real evidence of gamers opinions. i've posted this very same question on a number of other fora, including Heresy Online, 40kforums and Librarium Online (can't get B&C to work) so i'm trying to gather as wide a sample as is reasonably possible, given the limitations of the technology:

okay, we all know that the C: DH needs an update, and it has been discussed a number of times on a number of fora. but one of the biggest controversies that always arises in such discussions is whether the Grey Knights are best represent in the rules and on table tops as an army, or as a single unit that can be accessed by other armies?

so i want to put it to popular vote, and see what you guys think is the best solution to a sticky situation.

Aegius
09-02-2009, 20:21
I've not voted as I'm not really bothered whether they are an army or a unit. As an army I've found that they can be a little bit too common on the battlefield, but then you could say that about any astartes army.

Theola
09-02-2009, 20:46
I played Grey Knights for a while and I really don't think there's enough variety in their codex to justify them having their own army. I love the way the models look and I love the inquisition theme in general, but I was a little frustrated by the lack of options. There are no fast attack choices. Grey Knights can be very good at close combat, and not being able to at least give them jump packs seems kind of strange to me.

I don't want to see them dwindle down to a unit, either.

I think they would just do best as a marine chapter with some special rules to help keep them unique. While they do have some interesting choices like daemonhosts, inquisitors and assassins, I'd rather they just implement them into something like a marine expansion codex, like the Space Wolves or Dark Angels.

I ended up switching to Witch Hunters just because they still have the inquisition theme while having a more choices.

ceaser543
09-02-2009, 21:03
I think they should stay as an army I play them and love the very elite spartan feel. By the way they have a fast attack choice in the form of a grey knight teleport attack squad.

Theola
09-02-2009, 21:16
I think they should stay as an army I play them and love the very elite spartan feel. By the way they have a fast attack choice in the form of a grey knight teleport attack squad.

I know they can choose to deep strike, but from my experience it's difficult to initiate any kind of close combat from a deep strike without getting shot up first. Deep striking was always a bit too random for my tastes, especially for such expensive units.

I hate to sound like a complainer, since I do like Grey Knights a lot. I really don't think they're "nerfed" like everything thinks they are. I haven't voted yet, but I guess wanting to see them as a marine chapter means keeping them as an army.

trigger
09-02-2009, 21:23
I didnt vote because on one hand they should only be a squad or two in a army , but on the other , they should be a army but only if your fighting a DEAMON horde.

My 2 penny's

ArturoMcPants
09-02-2009, 21:53
I've been playing a GK army for a year now, I like the current set-up of being able to use them as a stand alone army, a specialized unit, or using them with some inducted units. The way it is you get to choose how you want to use the knights. The codex is definitely due for an over-haul... but I say leave the army style as is. Maybe just add a few more troop choices that are more like a Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc. Create a GK farm chapter maybe? It's the chapter that soldiers get promoted to for training/review before being fully inducted into the Knights themselves? That's give the army an extra troop choice, and like ALL SM units could be customized for Hvy Spt or Fast Attack.

eek107
09-02-2009, 21:55
If Deathwing can be an army in their own right, then I think GK should as well. The background supports it.

I think the organisation of the current DH codex is good enough.

Eryx_UK
09-02-2009, 21:56
I'd like to see them remain an army in their own right. I've seen one of my local players perform really well with them, so they ain't so bad under the current codex and rules.

Brother Loki
09-02-2009, 22:02
I'm torn on this, so I haven't voted.

On the one hand, I feel they best fit the background as a single unit. I liked the original GK terminators as they were first presented in WD - a single squad that teleported into the possessed planetary governor's throne room, killed the greater daemon, and then 'ported back out, leaving the rest of the war to more mundane forces. Short of a full blown daemon world there should never be more than 5 of them in the same engagement.

That said, now they've been an army with a significant number of players I feel it is unacceptable to remove them from the range.

Grand Master Raziel
09-02-2009, 22:11
AdmiralDick, I'm not entirely happy with the wording of your poll. By themselves, Grey Knights are not an army. They are units within the Daemonhunters army. You can make an all-GK army, but technically speaking, it is a Daemonhunters army. Anyhow, with that understanding, Daemonhunters should remain an army, and get some fleshing out when their turn rolls around. As Theola mentioned, they lack a decent Fast Attack choice. Teleport Attack Squads are all well and good, but all that amounts to is the PAGK Troops unit Deep Striking. Jump pack equipped GKs are often mentioned by army enthusiasts, but personally I think GK Bike Squadrons would look better and be more thematic.

Other than the lack of a convincing Fast Attack, the GK part of Codex: Daemonhunters doesn't really need any new units, just some tweaks and buffs. Where the dex is really light is in the non-GK options. If you're playing a Radical army (or any variant that doesn't include GKs), you have to choose from 1 HQ option (Inquisitor Lord), one Troops option (Inquistorial Stormtroopers), no Fast Attack, and a 0-1 Heavy Support choice that sucks (the Orbital Strike). Only in Elites are you spoiled for choice. So, I'd like to see the next Codex: Daemonhunters get non-GK Inquisitorial options for Fast Attack and Heavy Support, plus a reworking of the Inquisitor/Inquisitor Lord's upgrade options and retinues so designing an Inqy Lord and his retinue to be good at anything other than fire support isn't such an exercise in futility.

Lungboy
09-02-2009, 22:20
I think they would just do best as a marine chapter with some special rules to help keep them unique. While they do have some interesting choices like daemonhosts, inquisitors and assassins, I'd rather they just implement them into something like a marine expansion codex, like the Space Wolves or Dark Angels.

This paragraph makes no sense at all. Are you talking about Grey Knights specifically (in which case they can never be fielded with daemonhosts)? Or Daemonhunters in general (in which case calling them a chapter is nonsense)? Also, the DA codex isn't a Marine expansion dex, it's a proper, stand-alone Dex in the same way that the DH codex currently is.

march10k
09-02-2009, 22:22
who started this idiotic debate? Some non-40k-er who thinks the tabletop should conform to the video game???


Also, the DA codex isn't a Marine expansion dex, it's a proper, stand-alone Dex in the same way that the DH codex currently is.

yeah...an expansion codex would mean that DA get to use anything in the marine codex...which would shut up a few of my non-inner-circle brothers who can't seem to get over not having thunderfire cannons and 3++ storm shields :rolleyes:

Warforger
09-02-2009, 22:39
March10k, that post shows how the full name of Warseer is "Flame Warseer"

Army of course, if you think about it during 4th ed SM could have almost as many terminators as DA, witht he termi command squads, full man that would leave you at 52 Terminators, compared to the 57 for DW. SM could during that time take bikes as troops, further eliminating the DA's uniqueness. Yet they still have there own codex, and are still an awesome army.

Using that example, GK should have sub codexes possibly, there insanely unique and are the elite of the elite, there standard troop choice is more unique then BT's troop choice. I think there more then enough qualified for there own codex, and even bikes I'd say, I would dislike Jump packs, though I'm not sure why.

O&G'sRule
09-02-2009, 22:43
An army, but never allowed to be more than 1500-2000pts. They should be elite not numerous

EldarBishop
09-02-2009, 22:54
I voted for a unit, and do not play them...

well, I play them.. as a unit... in my Sisters army occassionally.

Lord Raneus
09-02-2009, 23:07
I feel that since Grey Knights are now a firmly established army with their own following, there is no reason for them to be cut from usable armies, especially since Sisters will definitely stay.

There's simply no reason for it.

Marshal Caligula
09-02-2009, 23:15
I play Grey Knights, and I think that Grey Knights should be their own army. However, I also think that they should be abled to be used as a unit in some armies. Just an idea to toss around.

CthulhuDalek
09-02-2009, 23:18
Obviously my opinion is a little biased, since I have a small daemonhunters force with no GK(radical). but I've felt for a long time that they shouldn't be a standalone army.

I think the solution to this would be "Codex: Inquisition." Where you can use all three ordos, but only ever use one or two of the "specialist" units. Each unit would also be allowed to be fielded in any other imperial force(GK, Sisters, Deathwatch, inquisitors) with some limitations of course. It doesn't make *much* sense that you could field an entire GK army(it's even less prominent that fielding such a large force of even regular marines) considering that they're sent over the entire galaxy to deal with huge daemonic incursions despite only being 1000 or so in number. I like the "supplementary" idea.

Inquisition armies could use inquisitorial stormtroopers, maybe penal legionnaires, sisters and other such things as basic troopers(as long as the correct HQ or perhaps elite choice is fielded?)

In fact, it could be "codex: Forces of the Imperium" and also have the option for admech and explorator groups.(I know the admech and inq don't get along very well, but they do work with one another a great deal.)

Ubermensch Commander
09-02-2009, 23:49
The Grey Knights should have, IMO, remained as an elites option or an Apocalypse sheet. But they are now nearly an army in their own right so should not be completely invalidated. As it is, they are not bad as part of the Codex Daemonhunters, and should remain attached to a Codex: Inquisition of any kind as released in the future.

They SHOULD be like Deathwing or Ravenwing force at this point. Themed, but not WRECK ALL ONCOMERS! Their focus should be killing Daemons (Hordes of lightly armored models and the occasional Big Nasty-which I think the storm bolter/nem halberd combo represents rather well. Needs point adjustment though). They should be units, plural, that will work amazingly well when combined with other stuff in whatever codex they are a part of, and still be good if one plays a themed army. Should just retain the same weakness as any elite force; small numbers.
Obviously they need a massive overhaul of their anti-Daemon rules. I for one would like to see the "endless Daemons" and "your enemy can use Daemons!" rules to go away or be MASSIVELY overhauled. They seem...clunky.

Overall, have their focus be primarily anti Damon while still working well with when with other forces within the codex.

Warforger
10-02-2009, 00:02
Yah, making Daemons roll 3d6 for a Ld test that no longer exists (Really, Daemons should have that rule, theree too OP'd in all respects and not that many disadvantages) is insanely useful for doing nothing at all. I'd love to see Grey Knight Bikers.

Vaktathi
10-02-2009, 00:05
For the most part, I think GK's should just be a super-elite Allied unit.

That said, it's cool as hell to have a whole army of them and they look awesome, I'd be sad to see them go.


Yah, making Daemons roll 3d6 for a Ld test that no longer exists (Really, Daemons should have that rule, theree too OP'd in all respects and not that many disadvantages) is insanely useful for doing nothing at all. I'd love to see Grey Knight Bikers.

Daemons are OP? I've never failed to table them, they are too damn random and you can tear them apart piecemeal one unit at a time as they are stuck there in Deepstrike formation, especially if you've got lots of template/blast weapons :D

I don't think I've actually ever seen a Daemon army *win* a game.

40kdhs
10-02-2009, 00:08
They should be an army because it's time for us to have a dedicated army to fight a daemon army.

Vaktathi
10-02-2009, 00:13
They should be an army because it's time for us to have a dedicated army to fight a daemon army.

Why do Daemons specifically need an army designed to fight against them? Do Tau need one? Imperial Guard? Tyranids? Witch Hunters?

Necromancer2
10-02-2009, 01:43
hey guys, we've been having a number of debates that have led me to want to see some real evidence of gamers opinions. i've posted this very same question on a number of other fora, including Heresy Online, 40kforums and Librarium Online (can't get B&C to work) so i'm trying to gather as wide a sample as is reasonably possible, given the limitations of the technology:

okay, we all know that the C: DH needs an update, and it has been discussed a number of times on a number of fora. but one of the biggest controversies that always arises in such discussions is whether the Grey Knights are best represent in the rules and on table tops as an army, or as a single unit that can be accessed by other armies?

so i want to put it to popular vote, and see what you guys think is the best solution to a sticky situation.


How is any of this different from the way it is now. They SHOULD be able to be an army... and they SHOULD be a unit allowed in IG/SM armies.

BattleSarge
10-02-2009, 01:50
Seeing how I have about 6k worth of them..... Army

holmcross
10-02-2009, 02:53
For the most part, I think GK's should just be a super-elite Allied unit.

What he said.

Its what it should have always been. Full GK armies are unfluffy and uneeded.

GK = the Imperium's Delta Force (sans the versitility of delta force). A full force of GK out and about is as stupid as the thought of a batallion of Delta Force trouncing around.

Leftenant Gashrog
10-02-2009, 03:06
Full GK armies are unfluffy and uneeded.


Quoted for Truth, its not like the GK deploying a full company to Armageddon has been canon since 1992..

holmcross
10-02-2009, 03:33
Quoted for Truth, its not like the GK deploying a full company to Armageddon has been canon since 1992..

Which was a once-in-history occurence that involved a massive daemonic infestation. Obviously the GK would put it as thier top priority and allocate as much resources to the fight as they could muster.

Other then something as extreme as that, GKs are deployed in small surgical strike teams to combat specific threats.

Is it conceivable/possible that GK would be deployed in full force like that? Sure. Likely? No. I should mention that just because something is conceivable doesn't make it fluffy to me. It would be possible to create extreme enough circumstances that would warrent for all kinds of odd allies/enemies/etc.

Theola
10-02-2009, 04:24
This paragraph makes no sense at all. Are you talking about Grey Knights specifically (in which case they can never be fielded with daemonhosts)? Or Daemonhunters in general (in which case calling them a chapter is nonsense)? Also, the DA codex isn't a Marine expansion dex, it's a proper, stand-alone Dex in the same way that the DH codex currently is.

Sorry, I tend to use the terms Grey Knights and Daemonhunters interchangeably. I admit, I'm not too familiar with the other chapter specific codexes. I thought most of them were more dependent on the space marine codex. I didn't realize some of them were standalone.

I wish there was a good way to both tie in the Grey Knights as more of a marine chapter, but without getting rid of the other Daemonhunter stuff. Maybe they are better off with their own book. Whatever they do with them, I'd just like to see them fleshed out more.

starlight
10-02-2009, 04:28
I'd rather see Grey Knights with their own book before seeing them as another Marine Chapter...:(

loveless
10-02-2009, 05:13
Give them their own book...in Daemonhunters form. They're far too intertwined to separate if you ask me.

The last thing I want to see is Grey Knight scouts, Grey Knight Landspeeders, Grey Knight Bikers, etc.

If you want to play a daemon-hunting Space Marine chapter with all the "goodies", go play the Exorcists.

starlight
10-02-2009, 05:25
I'd be happy to field my Grey Knights thus:

HQ/Elites - Terminators plus Combat Squad with suitable shiny ICs and LRCs as Transports
Troops/FA - PAGKs as now plus Combat Squad
HS - Land Raiders - all variants

See, it's easy to make starlight happy. :D

Especially when I can almost field this as listed...:angel:

ruttman15
10-02-2009, 06:25
I think they would just do best as a marine chapter with some special rules to help keep them unique. While they do have some interesting choices like daemonhosts, inquisitors and assassins, I'd rather they just implement them into something like a marine expansion codex, like the Space Wolves or Dark Angels.

i totally agree

40kdhs
10-02-2009, 18:32
Why do Daemons specifically need an army designed to fight against them? Do Tau need one? Imperial Guard? Tyranids? Witch Hunters?

Do you know why these mentioned armies don't need one? Because they fight everybody.

If people don't focus too much on the 'daemon' part, GKs are like everybody else.

Angelwing
10-02-2009, 18:42
I'd like them to stay as they are. That way, those who wish to field an army can do so. Those that would like an allied unit of Grey Knights, can do so.

Hicks
10-02-2009, 19:32
If Eldrad can show up to every skirmish the eldars fight even though he's dead, if Abaddon comes out of his warp realm just to kick some grots, if the ******* C'tans materialize to battle against a mere 100 humies, then I'll be damned if someone tells me I shouldn't be using my GK army against the Tau. It's clear that the fishies are being manipulated by Tzeentch into an evil scheme that must be stopped at all cost, or else the greater daemon M'krhryssespolipet and his armies will be allowed to be summoned into realspace by some cultists and destroy a thousand Imperial worlds before they can be stopped.

AdmiralDick
10-02-2009, 19:41
i must say this has been an enlightening experience so far. i won't get into dealing with the statistics i've gathered so far, but there is a definite trend at the moment.

i've also noticed a couple of reoccurring views over the 4 different forums that i've posted this same question on.


who started this idiotic debate? Some non-40k-er who thinks the tabletop should conform to the video game???

as helpful as always, thanks you for your contribution march10k.

but why can't things stay the same as they are now? why can't we have and army and allied units? sadly it is paradise that cannot last.

GW started this debate when they started the "one army, one codex" policy. with that announcement it became clear that time was nearly up for players who used SM, SoB and IG GK allies, or for players that used exclusively GKs. they could waive the policy (as they have done with tying the release of miniatures to codexes), but that seems unlikely as daemons and harlequins, who are equally mercenary, didn't get that treatment.


I didnt vote because on one hand they should only be a squad or two in a army , but on the other , they should be a army but only if your fighting a DEAMON horde.

a number of posters have suggested that a pure GK force should only be taken against a pure daemon army.

its an interesting notion, but i can't think of a way you could make it work. would players have to bring two armies to pick up game, just in case their opponent fields daemons?


AdmiralDick, I'm not entirely happy with the wording of your poll. By themselves, Grey Knights are not an army.

the poll was actually worded quite carefully so that it wasn't tied to a specific methods of delivery (such as a codex), as there is no reason that it has to be. so the statements we left deliberately ambiguous enough to let voters choose from concepts, rather than specific ideas.


there is no reason for them to be cut from usable armies, especially since Sisters will definitely stay.

There's simply no reason for it.

i hate to disagree with you but it appears that the majority of voters disagree with you. there are a number of logical reasons why it might be better to have GKs playable only as a single unit in standard 40k (obviously Apoc is a different situation) and there are a number of threads already on this forum that people have posted those reasons in.

my suggestion would be this one:

Linksy (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181669)


Yah, making Daemons roll 3d6 for a Ld test that no longer exists (Really, Daemons should have that rule, theree too OP'd in all respects and not that many disadvantages) is insanely useful for doing nothing at all. I'd love to see Grey Knight Bikers.

Daemonic Instability was one of my absolute favourite parts of the previous codex. i was gutted to see it go.


Quoted for Truth, its not like the GK deploying a full company to Armageddon has been canon since 1992..

if you were restricted to playing only one unit of GKs in a standard game of 40k, there would obviously be no way to restrict players from using more than one in Apoc (in fact, to do so would completely go against the rules). and Apoc would be a vastly superior environment to re-enact the battle that took place on Armageddon.

are there many examples of GKs fighting in a standard formation/as an army, that are not tied up with justification of the current codex or from massive, catastrophic battles?


I'd rather see Grey Knights with their own book before seeing them as another Marine Chapter...:(

i'm not sure what this means.

starlight
10-02-2009, 19:49
I'd rather see a flavourful GK/DH book than have GKs simply be *Marines with fill in the blank*. Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle should have the *ability* to be fielded as armies and leave the choice to the gamers. :p


I *like* being able to field an entire FOC of Grey Knights, just as I *like* being able to field 3,000pts of Snotlings.:eek: Who cares if it's *canon* or *realistic* (remember we're talking about *reality* when 20ft daemons with axes battle giant walking tanks with their crews literally wired in) as long as it's cool and fun. :p

40kdhs
10-02-2009, 19:54
Originally Posted by Leftenant Gashrog
its not like the GK deploying a full company to Armageddon has been canon since 1992.


You are talking about the size of an army. 5 GKs are not considered to be a 'company' but they are in a GK army because we aren't IG.
Do you ever hear 'Army of One'? :)

starlight
10-02-2009, 19:57
Which, while interesting advertising and totally against the fundamental concept of teamwork the US Army depends on, is completely impractical and unrealistic...oh wait, there's that nagging *reality* calling again. :p

monopeludo
10-02-2009, 22:32
They should be able to gather many troops if the necesity arrives.

Bunnahabhain
10-02-2009, 23:44
I'd like to see them as they are currently seen as allies.

Not just one squad per se, but not more than a couple of squads. Power armoured and terminators, with characters as fits.

I just don't see them as a full and independent army. If they are make them part of Codex: Inquistion..

In an ideal world however, and I'm not expecting this to actually happen, GW would be prepared to endorse and publish online various minor faction codexs, such as Kroot, Eldar Exodites, Genestealer cults, Chaos mono-god lists, Armoured company and Grey Knights, that are not a full army in their own right, or at least not very often, but do definitely exist in the background.

Groups like BoLs write fairly good fan made codexs. All GW need to do is check through, tidy up as need be, and publish them on their website as a PDF, with an official stamp of approval of them as a reasonably balanced army list.
Throw a disclaimer on that they are not written by the GW studio, and so may not be updated over edition changes, or may be replaced by studio produced ones. Also say that they may not be fully supported by the current model range, so may need converting. Between these two things they are a challenge for the experienced hobbyist, and not ideal for beginners. Put this warning in bold at the start of each of these codexs, so nobody can claim they are being mislead

Codsticker
11-02-2009, 03:36
I voted that they should be an army of units. ;)

Warforger
11-02-2009, 03:46
I find the 3rd edition DH/WH codices to be extremely un-3rd edition, mainly because from what I see, 3rd edition codices tried to make fluffy armies more viable, DH did not achieve that.

starlight
11-02-2009, 03:49
I find the 3rd edition DH/WH codices to be extremely un-3rd edition, mainly because from what I see, 3rd edition codices tried to make fluffy armies more viable, DH did not achieve that.

How could that be when 3rd Ed was the edition (especially the first half) with the *least* background material of all five?

guillaume
11-02-2009, 03:54
WHOA! I play GK and they are an ARMY. They are different from regular SM.

They are the Inquisition, and only deal with the chaos incursion, whereas SM deal with everything.

I would go ballistic if GK were to become a unit. I DO believe that GK and WH could be put together for a truly awesome Inquisition army, an army that would be chasing all those so called SM chapters that have obviously dabbed with chaotic forces.

The GK are utterly utterly above everyone else, and should remain so and be thought as so. Not as JUST another SM....beurgh!

Hicks
11-02-2009, 04:13
WHOA! I play GK and they are an ARMY. They are different from regular SM.

They are the Inquisition, and only deal with the chaos incursion, whereas SM deal with everything.
I would go ballistic if GK were to become a unit. I DO believe that GK and WH could be put together for a truly awesome Inquisition army, an army that would be chasing all those so called SM chapters that have obviously dabbed with chaotic forces.

The GK are utterly utterly above everyone else, and should remain so and be thought as so. Not as JUST another SM....beurgh!


But that's the main argument against them being an army.

thechosenone
11-02-2009, 04:44
I voted admiral and i think you know where i stand on this nearly dead fish. Thanks for making the poll though. Maybe numbers will settle something that words fail to in other threads

Khornies & milk
11-02-2009, 06:03
I voted admiral and i think you know where i stand on this nearly dead fish. Thanks for making the poll though. Maybe numbers will settle something that words fail to in other threads

What makes you think this is a dead fish? There have been similar Threads for the past 12 months that I know of, so it'll probably raise it's head again in a month or so.

Good to see the poll is reflecting the desire to have a GK army.:)

Lexington
11-02-2009, 07:59
In an ideal world, GW never would have run with the idea of Inquisition armies, which really have no business being in 90% of the game.

That said, even though GW has shown that it is willing to strike down whole armies (hello, Lost and the Damned players), I don't think it's an appropriate move. No one likes having their army sacked.

Earthbeard
11-02-2009, 08:48
I'm torn on this, so I haven't voted.

On the one hand, I feel they best fit the background as a single unit. I liked the original GK terminators as they were first presented in WD - a single squad that teleported into the possessed planetary governor's throne room, killed the greater daemon, and then 'ported back out, leaving the rest of the war to more mundane forces. Short of a full blown daemon world there should never be more than 5 of them in the same engagement.

That said, now they've been an army with a significant number of players I feel it is unacceptable to remove them from the range.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter too.

mughi3
11-02-2009, 09:30
My take is that GKs are a space marine chapter as per the fluff, a very specialised and secretive chapter but a chapter none the less. as such they are and should be just as viable as ulra marines or any other well known chapter.

IAMNOTHERE
11-02-2009, 09:45
I'd like to see them as powerfull as when they first appeared, 600pts for a Brother Captain, a squad of 5 Terminators for 1200pts, incredible.

So yes, deffinatly an Army but the option for others to take them should remain.

AdmiralDick
11-02-2009, 09:49
They should be an army because it's time for us to have a dedicated army to fight a daemon army.

i don't know what the difference between us is, but the more you post, the less understand what you're getting at. ;)


Do you know why these mentioned armies don't need one? Because they fight everybody.

daemons fight everyone and they get a specialist 'hunter' army? shouldn't IG get the same?

it becomes even more confusing when you consider WH and how their really aren't that many psykers in the game these days. one would have thought that the designers would have made a bigger deal about having lots of psychic powers to choose from in each codex and making psykers much more central to armies like Daemons and Eldar. otherwise WH end up being just a name.


If people don't focus too much on the 'daemon' part, GKs are like everybody else.

is that not a logical reason to not have GKs as a whole army? because you would necessarily have to dilute the Daemon Hunting aspect to make them work? where as, if there were an option in other armies, they could be solely geared towards striking down daemons and would be taken accordingly.


You are talking about the size of an army. 5 GKs are not considered to be a 'company' but they are in a GK army because we aren't IG.
Do you ever hear 'Army of One'? :)

wait a minute. have you switched sides in this debate?


I'd rather see a flavourful GK/DH book than have GKs simply be *Marines with fill in the blank*.

my fear would be that trying to build a codex around GKs, so that you could field a FOC purely of them in a balanced and flexible manner, would necessarily cause them to become like any other SM chapter with a gimmick. i'd personally really rather not see them reduced to that, so would vote against continuing them as a playable army in 40k.


I *like* being able to field an entire FOC of Grey Knights, just as I *like* being able to field 3,000pts of Snotlings.:eek: Who cares if it's *canon* or *realistic* (remember we're talking about *reality* when 20ft daemons with axes battle giant walking tanks with their crews literally wired in) as long as it's cool and fun. :p

i have to say that i think that this is probably the most reasonable argument for a pure GK army, however, i still don't think that it out ways the cons.

(on this theme, i want to field a SM Devastator Company!)


Which, while interesting advertising and totally against the fundamental concept of teamwork the US Army depends on, is completely impractical and unrealistic...oh wait, there's that nagging *reality* calling again. :p

the US army is dependant on team work?? not in any war i've heard about? :)

seriously though, one of the major reasons that modern armies have to rely on large numbers of troops working together would be because of the opponents and environments that they operate in.

currently, armies only fight other human armies. and as the average US soldier is not significantly different in ability to the average Afghan soldier, who in turn is not so different from the average Russian soldier, the types of tactics employed are pretty much the same the world over.

zookeepers on the other hand do not rely on the same sorts of tactics, and neither do teachers. granted they are not combatants, but the point is that the things that they are working with are of a discernibly different 'power level'.

the other factor to take into account is that perhaps, when fighting daemons, that are attracted to human souls, working in large groups of potent psykers actually makes the situation worse than if they were to 'go it alone'.


They should be able to gather many troops if the necesity arrives.

agreed. but that will usually be after the fact of the matter and not before it. they are effectively the 40k version of firemen. when a building starts to burn (and not before) one truck turns up from your local station. should the blaze be too big for that one crew to handle they can call on others. in fact others may have been on their way from the start, but being stationed further away the team that arrived first must get on alone until others turn up. but that only happens in a really big fire.


In an ideal world however, and I'm not expecting this to actually happen, GW would be prepared to endorse and publish online various minor faction codexs, such as Kroot, Eldar Exodites, Genestealer cults, Chaos mono-god lists, Armoured company and Grey Knights, that are not a full army in their own right, or at least not very often, but do definitely exist in the background.

i think its a real shame that the General's Compendium came in so under the radar, and that no equivalent was made for 40k (discounting the copious Chapter Approved books that is). i think its a real shame that GW have generated these two labels for material to make some things strict and others relaxed and then have not really made use of the 'relaxed' label at all.

i think GW need to have more fun with the game.


I find the 3rd edition DH/WH codices to be extremely un-3rd edition, mainly because from what I see, 3rd edition codices tried to make fluffy armies more viable, DH did not achieve that.

well, if you take into account that you couldn't play them at all previously, i think they were probably a lot more viable after the codex was released.

i don't know whether it was official policy or just something that happened, but it seemed to me that 3rd Ed was about interacting with the background through the game, rather than through reading. there was still quite a lot of material around, but the number of races expanded significantly and things like Chapter Approved threw a whole lot of extra in game background material our way (minor psychic powers, gargantuan creatures and yet more armies).


WHOA! I play GK and they are an ARMY. They are different from regular SM.

They are the Inquisition, and only deal with the chaos incursion, whereas SM deal with everything.

I would go ballistic if GK were to become a unit. I DO believe that GK and WH could be put together for a truly awesome Inquisition army, an army that would be chasing all those so called SM chapters that have obviously dabbed with chaotic forces.

The GK are utterly utterly above everyone else, and should remain so and be thought as so. Not as JUST another SM....beurgh!

similar to Hick, i would say that this would be one of the top arguments against having GKs as an army. how can they be "utterly above everyone else" and yet still balanced?


Maybe numbers will settle something that words fail to in other threads

when i went to bed last night there was a clear trend, spread over the 4 identical polls i was running (B&C won't let you post poll questions, which is a shame), that suggested that much as GK players might like to keep their armies, pretty much everyone else said that a whole army of them was a bad idea (and what's cool about an army if you know everyone else thinks they suck expletives).

however, this morning things have changed. supporters are still not in the lead, but there is much more of a 50/50 split.

it would be interesting to see how each side reacts when GW make their choice and then don't bother explaining why.

Biomass Denial
11-02-2009, 10:13
GKs shouldnt be a unit in another army but they should never be and have never being an army in their own right. At the moment they are part of codex Daemon Hunters and should stay that way. I beleive that despite people trying they can never make a truly balanced army of just grey knights because the codex was never made with that in mind. Instead they should use the codex as it was intended and mix the inquisitional forces with the knights instead of trying to make a pure knights force which was never planned by the designers. In some ways a pure knights force is like an army of grots, sure its possible but it was never intended.

Kobrakai
11-02-2009, 10:23
To be honest the fact you can use grey knights as both allied units or a force in their own right means both opinions can be implemented, regardless of how you stand on the matter.

To start off i'm having a few supporting squads of Power armoured GK's and Terminators, which might expand into their own force. The same with witch hunters, I have a few bits for them too.

I like how they are, and their balance. Some parts might be worth a quick tuneup but otherwise I think they work quite nicely.

40kdhs
11-02-2009, 17:08
i don't know what the difference between us is, but the more you post, the less understand what you're getting at. ;)


Because you don't truly understand the meaning of having a GK army.;)





daemons fight everyone and they get a specialist 'hunter' army? shouldn't IG get the same?

it becomes even more confusing when you consider WH and how their really aren't that many psykers in the game these days. one would have thought that the designers would have made a bigger deal about having lots of psychic powers to choose from in each codex and making psykers much more central to armies like Daemons and Eldar. otherwise WH end up being just a name.

is that not a logical reason to not have GKs as a whole army? because you would necessarily have to dilute the Daemon Hunting aspect to make them work? where as, if there were an option in other armies, they could be solely geared towards striking down daemons and would be taken accordingly.


You focus on the daemon part so much that you can't find another way to use GKs. You knew about the fight between SW and GKs and still ignore it. Perhaps, you may not have the same arguement if we simply say GKs instead of 'daemonhunters'.

If you understand my below questions, you'll see the need for us to have a full GK army.

1- What will GKs do if IG captain or SM master requests Ordo Malleus for assistance because they will be overrun by Tau or Ork in the next 16 hours and none of the Imperium force is currently available?

2- What will GKs do if our station or HQ is attacked by a unfriendly force?

3-What will GKs do if a SM chaplain requests Ordo Malleus for help because his officers and troops are about to turn to 'chaos'?

My point is very simple. Whenever a friendly senior commander dials 800-Go-GK-666, we need to be ready to help him whether daemons is there or not. Furthermore, we need to defend our stations and HQ if they are attacked by an unfriendly force instead of relying on IG or SM for protection because we are the last line of defense in Imperium.

loveless
11-02-2009, 17:11
Because you don't truly understand the meaning of having a GK army.;)


*sigh* I know I shouldn't, but I just have to...


If you can't find anyone that agrees with your stance and people always enter long, drawn-out posting with you, maybe it's you who doesn't "truly understand the meaning of having a GK army".

You know...kind of like when someone calls you crazy for wearing a fish on your head and you respond by saying "I'm not crazy! The world is!"

40kdhs
11-02-2009, 18:27
If you can't find anyone that agrees with your stance and people always enter long, drawn-out posting with you, maybe it's you who doesn't "truly understand the meaning of having a GK army".



Have you looked at the poll? What do you see? The majority wants to see a GK 'army' while your group does not. Perhaps, you wouldn't be in the minority group if you understood what the majority said.

It's what it's and I'm glad that everything turns out the way it should be.:D

Corrode
11-02-2009, 18:35
It's a pretty dodgy poll, though - what do people put if they play Daemonhunters (and include GKs in their army) but they don't play pure GK? They have every right to say they play GK and yet they're not actually represented.

Hellgore
11-02-2009, 19:01
I feel that since Grey Knights are now a firmly established army with their own following, there is no reason for them to be cut from usable armies, especially since Sisters will definitely stay.

There's simply no reason for it.

aye, this says it all

captainramoz
11-02-2009, 19:33
I think they do well along with the inquisition.

loveless
11-02-2009, 19:58
Have you looked at the poll? What do you see? The majority wants to see a GK 'army' while your group does not. Perhaps, you wouldn't be in the minority group if you understood what the majority said.

It's what it's and I'm glad that everything turns out the way it should be.:D

...I voted FOR them to be an army. You just argue with everyone regardless of their stance - not to mention only reading the parts of people's posts that you want to read.

I've read your bizarre interpretations of GK fluff. I've humoured your odd ramblings on some events.

The fact of the matter is...I don't think anyone's actually disagreeing with you. Your position is valid - Grey Knights should be available as a stand-alone force as they have been for quite some time. It's the way you present your position that doesn't make sense. You try to pass off your own interpretations of background as fact, which really drives me nuts - you could at least put "in my opinion" as a disclaimer before it. You also refuse to take anyone else's comments into consideration, regardless of what they are.

I'm an Inquisition proponent - a cursory glance at my signature would tell you that. Quite frankly, I don't appreciate the post you made in the least bit.

Perhaps people wouldn't dissect your posts so much if you understood what they were saying, eh? ;) :p

Anyway, I'm trying to help - be a bit less...stubborn. I don't see GW abandoning the Grey Knights anytime soon.

Leo
11-02-2009, 21:42
the poll was actually worded quite carefully so that it wasn't tied to a specific methods of delivery (such as a codex), as there is no reason that it has to be. so the statements we left deliberately ambiguous enough to let voters choose from concepts, rather than specific ideas.



Iīm not sure why this had to be turned into a poll, especially one that is worded vaguely on purpose.
I guess later on youīll try to sell us the results as some kind of fact that the majority of people from the internet wants Grey Knights to disappear?

Ok then, letīs assume that youīll succeed in coaxing some common opinion from these polls that many want no Grey Knights and that they should disappear and be included in the IG Codex or something like that.

Then what?

Do you really believe anybody who coughed up hundreds of bucks for the models and spent countless hours painting them will care on bit that a bunch of whining flameboys from the internet donīt consider their army proper?
That anybody will sell his stuff so to better accomodate your views of the background? Maybe theyīll say 'boy, I sure am glad that someone finally showed my the light, thanks to Warseer for setting me straight'

If you really think so, try to envision a poll where people voted for the disappearance of one of your armies.

There are certainly several armies out there that I think we could do without because I find their background, models, and playstyle dumb.
Still, I can refrain myself from calling for a vote to make them go away because I really donīt believe that anyone with such an army will care, and they really shouldnīt.
And no: Using them in Apocalypse is not a good answer because itīs similar to saying 'well, your models wouldnīt be useless, they are still formidable paperweights'

Xelloss
11-02-2009, 23:18
Yeah flaming every where ! :D

I think the real question is not should the GK be an army or not. The real question is : should the inquisition be a army or a unit ?
I will try to explain myself : back to the 3rd edition, "heroes of the imperium" was a left over section with intersting concepts, like inquisition ecclesiarchy, assassins, etc... As I put WH40K aside for my study, I didn't quite followed the 4th ed until its end last year, and I found the inquisition books, with yesterday minor units becoming the center of the army. Strangly, when I asked around me about the inquisitorial forces, I heard "Sister of Battle" or "Grey Knights", and "ordo assassinorum". And the Inquisition ? "Cool models, but impracticable" : cost unbalanced, and now KP problems...

To resume : the big question is more "how to make the inquisition stuff fit into the 40k scale" ?
It seems to me that fropm a fluff point a view inquisitors were ok in 500 pts army, a guy with his henchmen and some troops he requisitionned to do a precise task (not always related to the battle : maybe the opponnent is just some ennemies in the way). Now that 40k is always bigger and bigger, it is insuffisent. Why playing inquisitoral forces, if that is to play SM or guard in the end ? The GK and SoB was a start to respond to this, but finally players began to wonder why these army not really part of the inquisition could not be on their own : the problem is still the same !

So, what solution can emerge from this situation :
A - the easy way : inquisition should not be in large-scale confrontation. They are specialized and fight specific ennemies.
But we do not want that.

B - the boring way : still the same that before, just cleaned from old obsolete rules. Nothing changes - or the variant as it is now : GW keeps his head in the ground, waiting players shift to other newer armies ("hey some people are in a worse situation, you should be ashamed to be unhappy :")

C - The fragmentation way : GK and SoB have their own books, inquisition goes in GI or GK + inquisition and SoB + ecclesiarchy
Good for GK and SoB (new units/new rules to balance them), bad for the inquisition that becomes some curiosity

D - the big great supersize mega book of inquisition :
The best ! new stuff for GK, SoB, more viable inquisition units not just fire support squad, real heavy support, finally Ordo Xenos. GK should be the ultimate elite force, expensive as hell but worthing it, sisters the gambling army (faith and lots of aleatorius things), and Death Watch/OX IST the customisable army speed-oriented. Inquisitor should have a real job on the table, not just unlocking units.
MAIN FLAWs : the whole thing would be bigger than the C:SM, and very technical. So GW could fear that their almighty super-champs the ultrasmurfs have their celebrity stolen (not THE bigger codex ever anymore), it would need work and testing (way above them from it seems) and it's not really 12-yo oriented. Hell will freeze over before such a codex is published.

So pick your choice.


Sorry if my english isn't clear, it's difficult for me even in my native language to be comprehensible...

Beppo1234
12-02-2009, 00:02
They should be just like the legion of the damned... limited. This makes them cooler.

thechosenone
12-02-2009, 01:55
LEO's just being a disagreeable fellow again. There are ways to state things that don't make you come off as a troll. Trolls can type alot too, not just one phrase attacks. You certainly type a lot and most of it is personally directed at people and things you don't like. In a post one or two posts above your own it was stated by Corrode that options are missing. He said it in a perfectly agreeable manner. You did not.

Learn to be part of the community. Now quick, pick apart my plea for politeness.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
12-02-2009, 04:26
Don't know how I missed this poll, but better to chime in late then never I suppose.

I have the models to run a pure Grey Knights force, and regularly do. I would estimate that I have a bit over 1500 points in grey knights models (so not the massive armies others have, but still a respectable force).

Given the choice between having the Grey Knights significantly expanded into a full chapter, assumedly with most of the standard marine options, or returning to their status as a single, extremely elite squad of terminators I would choose to have the Grey Knights become a single unit choice again. Not only does it make sense from my interpretation of the fluff (Grey Knights are an elite squad of warrior monks who are only called in when it has really hit the fan) but it helps to keep the Grey Knights as a rare, specialist style of force. If you make the Grey Knights "Marines with Nemesis force weapons" Then you may as well through a "Grey Knights Grand Master" special character in Codex: Space Marines and not bother with an independent codex at all.

Still, GW is NOT going to drop a Grey Knights army. They've stated (IIRC) that they are not going to drop any of the existing armies from Warhammer 40k. My hope is that the GK move into a "Codex: Inquisition" rulebook largely without any new models. Include rules for the cool forgeworld GK land raider and a few new Psychic powers maybe. Make PAGK troops choices only if a GK Hero is selected as an HQ choice (and possibly give the Justicars the option to do squad psychic powers, the way terminators can). This keeps with the feeling of the force (A Squad of Terminators backed by a few squads of PAGK still fits the feel of an elite strike force) without rendering many of the models of Daemonhunters players obsolete. The units will be expensive and the force will have tactical holes it must overcome, but that's the price paid for taking a full army of GK.

Warforger
12-02-2009, 04:48
Yes, that would normally apply, but if you read my post int he first page of the thread, if DA's get there own codex, then GK sure as hell deserve there own subcodices, I mean "Marines with Nemesis Force Weapons" is more unique then "Green marines"

Leo
12-02-2009, 08:14
It's a pretty dodgy poll, though - what do people put if they play Daemonhunters (and include GKs in their army) but they don't play pure GK? They have every right to say they play GK and yet they're not actually represented.

Well, I automatically assumed, that the poll starter meant it in the way that Grey Knights should be a special character-like unit that can be taken by other imperial factions like Imperial Guard or loyalist Space Marines which is what he posted a little earlier in another thread. That way you could pretty much kiss all your Grey Knight models after the first five Terminators good by.

To be fair though, he already said that he worded it ambiguously on purpose.

One could read 'Grey Knights should only be a unit' in a way that they are part of a Codex which also offers non-Grey Knight options, pretty much like itīs done now with Codex Demonhunters.

This is actually the only way I can imagine anybody voting option 2.
Who would vote for one of his armies to be effectively discontinued?

destroyerlord
12-02-2009, 10:37
I haven't read the thread, but I thought the Grey Knights and Death Watch were cool when they were limited, Chapter Approved rules units (back in 3rd). It made them rare and unique (like they should be). It also means one less codex for GW to ignore what with their stupid 'We are going to give every single loyalist chapter their own army book and renew them every edition' policy.

Corrode
12-02-2009, 11:41
Well, I automatically assumed, that the poll starter meant it in the way that Grey Knights should be a special character-like unit that can be taken by other imperial factions like Imperial Guard or loyalist Space Marines which is what he posted a little earlier in another thread. That way you could pretty much kiss all your Grey Knight models after the first five Terminators good by.

To be fair though, he already said that he worded it ambiguously on purpose.

One could read 'Grey Knights should only be a unit' in a way that they are part of a Codex which also offers non-Grey Knight options, pretty much like itīs done now with Codex Demonhunters.

This is actually the only way I can imagine anybody voting option 2.
Who would vote for one of his armies to be effectively discontinued?

And this demonstrates exactly why I said it was a dodgy poll. You're now forced to view it through the lens of your own subjective interpretation, and you yourself just highlighted two equally legitimate readings of the same poll option. The person setting the question is often able to pick what the answer will be. Various government referenda have taken advantage of this in their time. ;)

In this case, a more comprehensive poll would read:

Should Grey Knights be an army or a unit?

- Grey Knights should form their own, independent army
- Grey Knights should form the basis of a Daemonhunters army
- Grey Knights should be an Elite unit within a Daemonhunters army
- Grey Knights should be an Elite unit, available to all Imperial factions

(add your own 'I play/I don't play' options, perhaps even 'I play Daemonhunters, and... I play pure Grey Knights, and... I play neither of the above, and...). With this poll an actual opinion could be canvassed.

Doomseer
12-02-2009, 12:52
I say let them be an army and a unit as they are now, giving everyone the ultimate choice. I have a single unit of GK Terminators in my Doublewing army and they're very effective as a single unit.

40kdhs
12-02-2009, 16:08
You try to pass off your own interpretations of background as fact, which really drives me nuts - you could at least put "in my opinion" as a disclaimer before it.


Is everything that you write not your 'opinion'?

loveless
12-02-2009, 16:28
Is everything that you write not your 'opinion'?

I tend to cite my sources when I use them, be it a codex, lexicanum (which in turn cites official background sources), or the black library. It takes a little extra effort, but it well worth it if you're trying to prove a point.

ex-green
12-02-2009, 16:34
Leave them as an army but they need a couple of new units or additional weapon load outs to make them competitive against all comers.
They also need a good look at their special rules to bring them up to 5th Ed.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
12-02-2009, 20:11
Yes, that would normally apply, but if you read my post int he first page of the thread, if DA's get there own codex, then GK sure as hell deserve there own subcodices, I mean "Marines with Nemesis Force Weapons" is more unique then "Green marines"

Well that's a whole different can of worms then, isn't it? :) I could live with a marine consolidation too, and I've said as much several times in the past. Both the DA and the BA could be moved into Codex: Marines without too much hassle (although a PDF/White Dwarf sub-codex doesn't really bother me much, as I mentioned when discussing the GK/Inquisitor issue). Of the four variant armies only the Black Templar and the Space wolves are different enough that a special character that shuffles the FOC and gives a few new weapons options wouldn't be enough.

So creating ANOTHER full imperial marine codex that GW has to put into the codex update cycle and slow everything else down with? No thanks. I'll take my assassins, daemonhosts, and other semi-unique units over yet another predator or land speeder any day.

Khornies & milk
12-02-2009, 20:27
Well that's a whole different can of worms then, isn't it? :) I could live with a marine consolidation too, and I've said as much several times in the past. Both the DA and the BA could be moved into Codex: Marines without too much hassle (although a PDF/White Dwarf sub-codex doesn't really bother me much, as I mentioned when discussing the GK/Inquisitor issue). Of the four variant armies only the Black Templar and the Space wolves are different enough that a special character that shuffles the FOC and gives a few new weapons options wouldn't be enough.

So creating ANOTHER full imperial marine codex that GW has to put into the codex update cycle and slow everything else down with? No thanks. I'll take my assassins, daemonhosts, and other semi-unique units over yet another predator or land speeder any day.

Sorry, I don't agree with your last statement...I would bet my house that a
5th Edition DH/GK/Inquisition Codex would not be updated until 7/8 th Edition, so another 7+ year wait.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
12-02-2009, 20:32
Sorry, I don't agree with your last statement...I would bet my house that a
5th Edition DH/GK/Inquisition Codex would not be updated until 7/8 th Edition, so another 7+ year wait.

I dunno, if it turned into a pure Grey Knight army list then it would be space marines. GW might update it more often. :)

I'll give you that. But it doesn't change the fact that it would make Grey Knights even more of the same. I stand by what I said in the very last sentence of my post: I prefer my unique units to marine equivalents with slightly different rules.

Khornies & milk
12-02-2009, 20:46
I dunno, if it turned into a pure Grey Knight army list then it would be space marines. GW might update it more often. :)

I'll give you that. But it doesn't change the fact that it would make Grey Knights even more of the same. I stand by what I said in the very last sentence of my post: I prefer my unique units to marine equivalents with slightly different rules.

I know where you're coming from, and as far as making GK's just another Marine list...if GW do that then they will have ruined the Grey Knights forever.
They can easily beef up their competitiveness without introducing lots of Lascannons, Predators, etc.

rodmillard
14-02-2009, 03:24
I'm in two minds about this: as an =I= player I would like to keep the option of a full GK army, and I would like to see more GK options for that, but I also think that GK allies should be limited to one unit of terminators supporting another formation (much like the regiments of renown for WFB) which is how I normally use them: SOB army with a single allied GKT squad.

Personally, I would extend the one unit limit to other =I= forces below 3000 points, but I can see why some players like the mixed ordo option (I prefer to keep it for apocalypse). I would even limit/ban inducted troops in a GK list, assuming the option survives into a future codex.

So, on balance I voted for "unit" - but i would like to keep the option of a pure GK army provided it was just that: pure GKs.

StarFyreXXX
14-02-2009, 03:46
What I would like to see with the GKs, is give the regular GKs a 2+ AS OR give them a 6+ invuln save. Then the termies give them a 4+ invul.

Maybe raise pts a bit more, but GKs are the best space marines...period. and they are supposed to be....show that, but modify pts accordingly.

Maybe give justicars a true force weapon? not sure....instead of just power weapon?

SAnjay

Vote Kantor
14-02-2009, 07:55
If BA/DA/BT/DA get codices, GK definetely should, they are in all eccense, BETTERer

Radium
14-02-2009, 08:45
They should stay as it is now, basically a unit in a DH army but you have the option to field a pure GK army if you want to.

Aubec le noir
14-02-2009, 11:50
I play GK, for they are for me the army with the most caracter of all 40K armies and I can't imagine not playing them in full army or in association with the other 2 ordos
Aubec :chrome: