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Lowmans
09-02-2009, 20:58
Well..... I soon will be.

I've decided to start collecting HE so I can get some big games in without fruitlessly expanding my BoC.

I'm thinking of starting off with 1000 points and basing it on the 'Citizen Soldier' armies of the fluff.

So

1 Noble

1 Mage

2 * 10 Archers

2 * 15 Spearmen

1 * 5 Reavers

1 RBT

Does this seem reasonable to people (I'm really stabbing in the dark)!

I would like to keep the 'Citizen soldier' theme though and not have too many Specials.

I think in expanding to 2K I might fit in a Dragon Mage as I really like him. Another unit of spears, one of archers and a second RBT!?

Any help would be most welcome! :)

Condottiere
09-02-2009, 21:16
There are lots of discussions on the Tactics forum.

At 2K, you probably need at least 2-3 RBTs; after that you have to consider special units, most prefer Dragon Princes as a hammer unit.

The trick to playing any HE list is to remember they function best as a combined arms team.

Ethriel
09-02-2009, 22:22
The only problem I can see, is that besides the Commander and the RBT, you have a whole bunch of str 3 attacks. Most opponents are toughness 3 or 4, with a save in combat of 4+ or better, thus it will be hard even with your many attacks, to cause enough wounds.

What I would suggest, if you dont really want many special choices would be Chariots. Since you are using reavers, I would suggest having Lion Chariots, you get 6 str 5 hits at WS 5, which should help if you combine their charge with a block of spears. The Chariot causing the wounds, while the unit causes the CR.

However, if you want to stick, somewhat closer to your theme, take the Tiranoc Chariots, for the fact that they are basically armed by Citizens, and you can get roughly 2 Tiranoc for the price of 1 Lion.

Another thing I would suggest for "Citizens" would be silver Helms. In the last edition, they were core choices, they are basically the nobles of a City banding together to fight an enemy. So thus could easily be made to fit your theme.

For the Dragon mage, a definite Item, would be Silver Wand, the simple fact being, with your extra dice you can normally cast most spells, with 2 dice plus your free one.

Another thing i would suggest would be a BSB, because your Elves although better than a human, only have Ld 8 and the re-rolls from the BSB would be a welcome on those important break tests.

That's all I can think of, just remember about Spears...its almost always better to get charged, than to charge.

Ethriel

sroblin
10-02-2009, 02:52
Well, this is a very fluffy army concept to try to execute, and spearmen at least are a very decent unit no matter what people say. That said, I think there are a few tactical points to consider.

On the more minor side of things, I would recommend increasing the numbers of the spearmen units to at least 18 (deployed 6x3) if not more, because they really want to get the maximum number of attacks possible, and they can keep their rank bonus just a little bit longer.

On the not so minor side of things is that tactically you need to consider how you are going to have some kind of unit strategy for breaking/destroying things. Spearmen will chew up low-toughness, low-armor infantry very well, but most armys are going to field at least some tougher units, especially cavalry against which all those S3 attacks will simply go 'ping'. Archers are an ok support unit, but they don't have serious stopping power either for the same reason. The only means I see in this list for breaking tougher unit things is using the Ellyrian reavers to flank charge a unit already engaged with the spearmen. This is a good strategy, but the Reavers themselves are a fragile unit and don't hit very hard, so you can't really depend on them to work every battle and won't help out against tough units that don't need a rank bonus anyway. The mage and bolt-thrower can possibly contribute some useful damage output, (the latter as long as he doesn't run into serious magic defenses), but they can't carry the tide alone.

My impression of the classical citizen-soldier army setup that I've seen is one that is very defensive, and relies on repeater bolt-throwers and magic to do most of the killing, with spearmen basically hold of the enemy's troops from reaching the rear. At 1000pts, it's difficult to cram in all of the useful goodies, though you may wish to consider exchanging a unit of archers for a repeater-bolt thrower at this level, and getting an additional or a different combat support unit besides the reavers.

Other units to consider are chariots (though they are specials, they are not a very elite unite in general, and they work very well in cooperation with spearmen or another chariot) and Silver Helms (Dragon Princes are a better unit, but if you're serious about sticking to the 'citizen soldier' fluff, these are the more common kind of elf cavalry, and they will still work fine if you use them in a supporting role together with the spearmen).
As Condottieri said, you need some kind of hammer to work with your anvils, even if you want a shooting oriented list, you still need to have a way to win the battles against the enemy units that do make it to your lines. Chariots and Silver Helms are both good ways to this without using the truly elite choices.

Shadow Warriors are an elite unit, but I think they also would work well with this kind of army because: 1) you use them to march block, giving you more time to shoot up the enemy 2) they are equipped with bows themselves, so they also contribute as another shooting unit, while 3) as skirmishers and scouts, they don't take up space in your frontline, and can occupy points in the battlefield that would normally be useless. They are overpriced, though.

On the other hand, I would personally avoid fielding more than 2 units of archers. They are ok as support, but they're just not that effective and its hard to setup firing lanes for 30 of them. Repeater bolt-throwers, by contrast, are versatile, longer-ranged, and take up less space. I always field some archers (they have their uses, their occasional advantages even), and I rarely max out on bolt-throwers, but if you're going to make a 'ranged' army, they are going to provide the most effectiveness.

ChaosVC
10-02-2009, 03:42
Hi, you are probably a Vet fantasy player yourself aren'r you? I would suggest that maybe to give your troops a little bit more edge over other armies, especially those with new armies book, get at least a unit of 15 swordmasters or white lions, I notice your army is great and fluffy in a friendly game, but any army from chaos warriors to O&G without an over the top list would give you a lot of trouble since most of your troopers are low strength. Just an observation, hope you enjoy collecting and painting high elves.:)

The Red Scourge
10-02-2009, 08:54
Your shooting will benefit a lot from marchblocking, so adding an eagle would be nice, perhaps even putting that prince on one. This will also give you a weapon against enemy warmachines.

The Dragon Mage is nice and fun – and have an obscene amount of PD to throw around, and is nice for dealing with those regenerating regiments and monsters, but he is sooo fragile. and S4 fire magic doesn't help you against those things with high toughness/armor that the rest of your army will struggle with.

Also at 1K a single mage is fighting an uphill battle, as he'll face at least 2 DD with only 4 PD, better to place those points in extra troops. A fighty hero will on the other hand add Ld and a little combat edge to your game.

sroblin
10-02-2009, 16:01
Also at 1K a single mage is fighting an uphill battle, as he'll face at least 2 DD with only 4 PD, better to place those points in extra troops. A fighty hero will on the other hand add Ld and a little combat edge to your game.

Agreed that lone mages have a tough time (and it's impractical to run more at this point level), but if he aims to run a classic citizen-soldier list, than there's good reason to want a decent magic phase to support the shooting and make up for the weakness of the combat phase. Fortunately, High Elves have at least two very easy ways of buffing up their magic phase without having two buy an additional mage (and can even be combined): Jewel of Dusk (+1 PD) or more expensively and potently, the Banner of Sorcery (+D3 pd).

isidril93
10-02-2009, 20:12
i you want a 'citeven soldier' army but still want it to be competetive i would take a 3:1 citezen troop to elite. one fourth of your army elites would add that punch that you really need with a high elf army but you wont lose that citezen soldier feel that you want.

i would suggest that fornow you lose a unit of archers and add shadow warriors

sroblin has a point, a simple magic item would make your mage quite good at this level as he would hardly find any competition but if there is any he will provide support anyway. shield of saphery and fury of khaine can be really good in 1k

Lowmans
10-02-2009, 21:33
Thanks for the help so far guys. It's been extremely helpful and much appreciated!

I'm thinking of tweaking the initial 1000 points to include a Tiranoc Chariot (I can live with this as a Citizen type unit). I think I'll convert up the elves to stand out a little though.

I'd like to start the first 1000 points as a core to build the army on, I'm not too worried about it being particularly competitive at that point.

I think Shadow Warriors are a good idea to expand the army but they kind of clash with my theme. I might convert some from a mix of WE and HE parts to respresent Woodsmen who've returned home to find there villages pillaged!! Sounds a little forced though so I may have to rethink.

Silver Helms! Yes! I love these but I may be the only one! They do fit naturally into a Citizen Army as the Nobility/Overlords of the poor chaps doing the fighting/dying too!

I'm thinking of writing up some fluff for the whole list as an army raised by an Elven Noble House from it's vassals. So, the Nobles and Mages would be siblings and cousins with an Archmage, perhaps, as another member and the Prince of the House wielding one of the ancient weapons of Vaul.

I'll post an expansion to 2000 and then 3000 points soon.

P.S. If I don't plan armies like this it tends to go badly, with me ending up with all sorts!

Thanks all for your help so far! :)

sroblin
11-02-2009, 01:58
Sounds great, I look forward to hearing more about your plans for the army! I love the really fluffy armies with a back story.

I wouldn't worry about fielding Shadow Warriors as hunters from your army's home village, because I think realistically there are plenty of skirmishing bowman type units tha would exist on Ulthuan. (For example, the novel Defenders of Ulthuan mentions such a unit of 'rangers' that that serve Eltharion the Grim as scouts for Tor Yvresse; skirmishing ranged almost certainly exist in Avelorn as well.) The Army Book covers only the most common and famous units in of a particular race, but I think it's fine to adapt units that make sense for the fluff of your army (and in the Warhammer world), but are too specific for inclusion in an army book.

Out of curiosity, do you have a particular province in mind for your troops?

Lowmans
20-02-2009, 19:37
Thanks to you all who posted your most welcome suggestions.

Unfortunately due to the worsening economy and the fact I need to move house I'm putting this on an indefinite hiatus! :cries:

I guess there's a few people in this sort of position and possibly even another thread!

Anyway, I hope to revisit this in the future.

Many Thanks. :)

Mireadur
20-02-2009, 21:57
Ignore this:


There are lots of discussions on the Tactics forum.

At 2K, you probably need at least 2-3 RBTs; after that you have to consider special units, most prefer Dragon Princes as a hammer unit.

The trick to playing any HE list is to remember they function best as a combined arms team.



I see you like the kind of HE army i personally favour too..

Expanding the army i would add a 2nd RBT as mentioned above (but just a 2nd)

Going deeper into the Themed army i would only include 1 special infantry unit, the one you like the most.

Since you seem to favour the army general as a noble on horse i would also include (cant miss it) a unit of silver helms to be commanded by your noble.

Now considering that you already got enough archers, spearmen, artillery and cavalry, i think all you are missing for your army are the skirmishers (6-7 man unit of shadow warriors) and 1 or 2 tiranoc chariots.

I tend to think on HE armies such as those presented in the days of the bronze age: spears, bows, chariots, light units for support and finally the elite guard single infantry unit along with the nobles and their horses.

And dont forget the BSB man, it should be included into those 1st 1000 points and going on foot (with a 2handed weapon) should help your beloved infantry units to hold their ground agaisnt the enemy.

Lowmans
25-02-2009, 21:01
Thanks Mireadur. That was a hugely helpful post!

Bit happier moneywise now and I've started off by buying the (really good) batallion box and I'll post a full army list when I've got one!

isidril93
25-02-2009, 21:09
and throw in a noble box set you've got an army

Foegnasher
25-02-2009, 21:57
Before each match prance about and thow flowers to your opponent.
dont forget your dress.


pansey.

;):D

The SkaerKrow
26-02-2009, 12:18
Oh stuff it, cheese eater! :p

Just wanted to say that I like your theme, Lowmans, and I wish you the best of luck on getting your army started.