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Magnusv
09-02-2009, 21:59
Can you use the MR of Dismay (making all units take a LD test to be allowed to charge) then use the MR of Challenge (forces a unit to charge or flee from the rune holding character) on a unit that FAILED the Dismay test to force them to flee?


Thanks.

Mags

Neckutter
09-02-2009, 22:42
could you quote the entire entry for both of those master runes? as it is, it sounds like the unit would get two chances to pass the LD test in order to charge.

the scenario: i want to charge you, you pop the MR of dismay. i fail my LD test. then you pop the other MR, and im forced to charge or flee. it then looks to me like i get another chance to charge if i pass my Ld test.

i dont play dwarves, but i could try to help.

Magnusv
10-02-2009, 00:10
MR of Dismay states that before enemy charges are declared you make every enemy unit take a LD test. If they fail the test they may not declare a charge that turn.

MR of Challenge states that before the enemy declares charges one enemy unit within 20 inches of the holder and under the normal rules may charge you must or else flee in the comp movement phase as if they failed a panic test.

There is NO LD roll for the MR of Challenge.

Grimbrow
10-02-2009, 00:19
I'd say no, considering in the rules for MR of challenge it says "the unit must be able to charge and reach the rune user" - add that together with an item which says he's not allowed to charge, and i'd say nothing happens. I'd consider the effects of the first item to classify as not being able to charge 'according to the normal rules'.

Magnusv
10-02-2009, 01:22
I tend to disagree as Normal rules are just that, not rules adjusted for runes.

More support for argument is needed.

Nurgling Chieftain
10-02-2009, 02:05
"Normal" in GW-speak means "apart from this particular item/effect". There are so many exceptions and exceptions to exceptions that attempting to pin "normal" down in any other way is futile.

If the unit fails the Dismay test, it is not eligible to charge your unit and so it not eligible to be challenged.

ehlijen
10-02-2009, 02:11
But would you be able to use the master rune of challenge first, then the master rune of dismay?

That way you've used the challenge rune on an aligible target but may still benefit from the dismay rune that turn (on that or other units).

I agree that the rune of challenge should not be used after dismay tests have been taken, but before then it should be possible (given the uncertainty that puts on the use of this one use item).

Magnusv
10-02-2009, 02:31
Actually a unit that fails its dismay test may still charge, it just can't declare one (via magic or some other misc)

The master rune of dismay makes you take a leadership test to allow you to declare a charge the master rune of challenge make you declare a charge or flee.

KillbotFactory
10-02-2009, 02:40
Actually a unit that fails its dismay test may still charge, it just can't declare one (via magic or some other misc)


Take time to think about what you just said.

If a unit cannot declare a charge it means it cannot complete one since a charge declaration is required to "charge".

Nurgling Chieftain
10-02-2009, 03:01
There are exceptions to that rule, though frankly I don't think they're generally relevant to this discussion.

Ehlijen! I don't think I've seen you post in WFB Rules before! Welcome. :cool:

TonyFlow
10-02-2009, 03:37
I dont see why this is an argument. Isnt the point of the MR of Challenge that you WANT them to charge you??? Why would you make them take a LD test to do it, when you clearly would love for them to run into your axes? I would never use them at the same time.

Glimfeather
10-02-2009, 04:39
Also important is the fact that a Dwarf player must declare the use of the Master Rune of Dismay at the end of their turn before the opponents begins their turn.

Pretty sure about this, but I don't have my Army book handy to double check.

Regards,

Chris

Magnusv
11-02-2009, 00:56
Incorrect both runes are used in the enemy turn before charges are declared.

The point is that if the Rune of Dismay works you could force a selected unit to flee from you on your opponents turn.

Mad Makz
11-02-2009, 04:24
Does MR of challenge say as quoted "before the enemy declares charges one enemy unit within 20 inches of the holder and under the normal rules may charge you must or else flee in the comp movement phase as if they failed a panic test."?

If so, it says that the unit must charge, not that they must declare a charge. In fact, the movement itself by all accounts is arguably before the enemy declares charges, if the rules are exactly as written before.

WLBjork
11-02-2009, 16:52
Not quite - the MR of Challenge requires that the target unit is able to charge and is able to reach the bearer/bearer's unit.

Magnusv
11-02-2009, 23:49
"The unit must be able to charge and reach the rune user or the unit he it with according to the normal rules"

Question is does the MR of Dismay create an "Abnormal" situation in which not being able to declare a charge forces the unit to flee instead. IE Normally the targeted unit would be able to charge except when it fails the LD test associated with the MR of Dismay

WLBjork
12-02-2009, 03:08
As ever, it's not clear.

I think Nurgling Chieftain said it best in post #6 - normal means "anything not connected to this effect".

Aglemar
13-02-2009, 14:32
I think part of the confusion comes from the word normal, and that people aren't looking at it the right way. I think the normal rule isn't for things that would prevent you from making a charge, but for things that allow you to make the charge.

Take a banner for example that when revealed gives you an extra D6 inches on the charge. The rune can force you to make a normal charge, but it can't force you to use your banner to get the charge off no matter what.