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Templar47
09-02-2009, 23:48
Hey. Its been 3 years since I last played 40k and I am considering coming back with my templars. However a friend of mine told me that the templars got nerfed really bad in the 5th edition and they are no longer a competitive army anymore. Is this true? Its no big deal because I would then go blood angels, but did they get nerfed?

Lord Malorne
09-02-2009, 23:52
No they did not get nerfed, check out the tactica in my sig...good times :D.

Ben
09-02-2009, 23:57
They're like a space marine version of orks. Get a few mobs of 20 and head for the enemy. Neophytes are useful, though I've found the best way to get rid of them is dropping things like whirlwind templates on the mobs.

They are a fun army to play against though, because of their special rules and different units.

Inquisitor Engel
09-02-2009, 23:57
The Black Templars were never really a problem army for me...

Lord Malorne
09-02-2009, 23:59
Then you have no good BT players in your group :p.

Reflex
10-02-2009, 00:49
Templars are like necrons and dark eldar. you have to be dedicated to the army to play. In saying that they arnt as bad as the two i just mentioned but they are still pretty pox compared to what they used to be.

Inquisitor Engel
10-02-2009, 00:54
Then you have no good BT players in your group :p.

Nonsense. The simple key to beating Templars is the concentration of fire. Do not shoot anything you cannot all-but wipe out because it just brings them closer to you.

I'm not saying I walk all over them, but I've never had to sit down and THINK long and hard about my next move against them, balanced on a precipice between loss and win.

If you're really good with ranged weapons and placed sacrificial lamb units (Kroot are good for this!) you can actually corral a Templars army right into neat, organized, firing lanes.

Chimaera2000
10-02-2009, 00:59
Actually, I'd say that the Black Templars got much stronger in 5th edition. First, their foot-based infantry benefits greatly from the Run rule. With this and Righteous Zeal, you can close 6 + 2d6" towards the enemy.... and with a Chaplain, you can add another 3" to this! You can close the distance quickly, which is great for footslogging armies.

Second, they get an ability that allows them to have Preferred Enemy (Everyone). In the new edition, that means they can re-roll all failed to-hit rolls in close combat. Needless to say, you're going to end up hitting a lot! Whether with chainswords or power weapons, you're going to be causing a lot of casualties.

Third, they have the ability to mix in cheaper Neophytes with their power-armored Initiates. With the new wound allocation rules, that means that you can put armor-piercing hits on cheaper models, increasing your units' effective durability greatly.

Fourth, they have access to options that the new Space Marines no longer do. You can have Veterans and Dreadnoughts with veteran skills, five-man squads lascannon/plasma squads, five-man Terminators with dual assault cannons, Vindicators with Power of the Machine Spirit and Assault Marines with storm shields. It opens up a lot of neat possibilities.

Doppleskanger
10-02-2009, 01:40
yep I second Chimera 2000 on this one. I think BT have been dramatically improved by several small differences in 5th ed. I packed my templars away a few years ago, but i've been thinking about getting them out again because the run thing makes them so damn dangerous, and the new mixed armour rules make them harder and less fiddly to play. Saying that I think I probably want to use 3 full crusader squads now, so that's probably double the number I have presently and so it will take a while to get there. They also have tougher characters than in the new dex, the techmarine can use his plasma pistol as a close combat weapon, and as mentioned you can still take 2 Assault cannons.
Not at all bad if you ask me!

Lord Malorne
10-02-2009, 08:40
Nonsense. The simple key to beating Templars is the concentration of fire. Do not shoot anything you cannot all-but wipe out because it just brings them closer to you.

I'm not saying I walk all over them, but I've never had to sit down and THINK long and hard about my next move against them, balanced on a precipice between loss and win.

If you're really good with ranged weapons and placed sacrificial lamb units (Kroot are good for this!) you can actually corral a Templars army right into neat, organized, firing lanes.

Utter nonsense, the same can be said about every army, BT do nothing to make it easier for you, hence that 'strategy' is nonsense.

OP:Black Templars are an amazing army and reward there players with many, many great experiences, point for point, unit for unit, they are far, far better than a vanilla marine army or a BA army.

There are two accepted army builds for Black Templars, foot slogging horde and mechanised, I play mechanised, they are a terror on the battlefield, in most cases you don't even need to use elites, the crusader squads with the accept any challenge no matter the odds vow can and will take down anything, that is speaking from experience.

Remoah
10-02-2009, 08:44
Think Marine Horde army... that's BT, lots of tough infatry charging at you with some pretty decent Specials in there.

blood=angels
10-02-2009, 09:04
black templars is a good army, ive been meaning to get some upgrade packs give them a more just look

Reflex
10-02-2009, 09:36
this thread makes me want to return to the crusade... and now i feel bad for dissing the army.. humpf..

Templar47
22-02-2009, 08:09
Thanks for the help do far guys :). This does want make me want to brush the dust of my army and join the crusade again, but I also like the look of the blood angels. How do they compare to the BT in 5th?

DarkMatter2
22-02-2009, 08:38
Not only has fifth edition buffed them, well, lets face it - they are and always have been the coolest army in all of 40k.

innerwolf
22-02-2009, 09:10
Fourth, they have access to options that the new Space Marines no longer do. You can have Veterans and Dreadnoughts with veteran skills, five-man squads lascannon/plasma squads, five-man Terminators with dual assault cannons, Vindicators with Power of the Machine Spirit and Assault Marines with storm shields. It opens up a lot of neat possibilities.

Veterans? => Space Marines have Sternguard, twice as useful as Veterans will ever be.
Dreadnoughts with veteran skills? => Space Marines have Ironclad Dreadnoughts
5 man las-plas?=> Cheaper heavy weapons
Min-max asscannon termies? => Assault terminators with REAL stormshields
Vindicators with PotMS? => Cheaper and better vehicles overall
Assault Marines with Storm Shields?( not so useful and overpriced)=>vanguard Veterans with REAL stormshields, which are even more expensive but hard as nails.

And I'm not going to talk about Librarians(with awesome psychic powers), FnP Command Squads...

All the Black Templar unique army list options are at least neutered by the Space Marines ones, if not beaten in quality.
They only have one rule in their favour( Righteous Zeal) and it works because of the new Run rule. Neophytes are also useful because of the new wound allocation rules. But to have a competitive list you are restricted to a handful of units and a boring gamestyle.

I'm so bitter because I played Black Templars on 4th, and they were even worse then. 5th edition rules gave them some advantages, but the new Space Marines codex was so much better that it's obscene.

I would recommend Black Templars for their imaginery, fluff and cool models, but you could use all of them with SM rules as a minor chapter, have more funny games and win quite a lot more.

Please Black Templars gamers, don't take it as a personal insult, I was one of you once. But I consider them underpowered compared to their blue cousins.

Pyriel
22-02-2009, 10:33
Veterans? => Space Marines have Sternguard, twice as useful as Veterans will ever be.
Dreadnoughts with veteran skills? => Space Marines have Ironclad Dreadnoughts
5 man las-plas?=> Cheaper heavy weapons
Min-max asscannon termies? => Assault terminators with REAL stormshields
Vindicators with PotMS? => Cheaper and better vehicles overall
Assault Marines with Storm Shields?( not so useful and overpriced)=>vanguard Veterans with REAL stormshields, which are even more expensive but hard as nails.

And I'm not going to talk about Librarians(with awesome psychic powers), FnP Command Squads...

All the Black Templar unique army list options are at least neutered by the Space Marines ones, if not beaten in quality.
They only have one rule in their favour( Righteous Zeal) and it works because of the new Run rule. Neophytes are also useful because of the new wound allocation rules. But to have a competitive list you are restricted to a handful of units and a boring gamestyle.

I'm so bitter because I played Black Templars on 4th, and they were even worse then. 5th edition rules gave them some advantages, but the new Space Marines codex was so much better that it's obscene.

I would recommend Black Templars for their imaginery, fluff and cool models, but you could use all of them with SM rules as a minor chapter, have more funny games and win quite a lot more.

Please Black Templars gamers, don't take it as a personal insult, I was one of you once. But I consider them underpowered compared to their blue cousins.


I played with the new SM codex for a while. it is an excellent SHOOTY AS TAU codex. But you cant make a good close combat army with it-as in, you have some options against shooty armies (like Shrike & Librarian's teleport) but nids, blood angels and the like will beat the crap out of you.

the SM codex, as a whole, has good shooting and great mobility-it is very good. but it doesnt have true cc units-no, the assault "i need a land raider to charge" termies dont count, 'cause in cc, furious charge/prefered enemy claw termies are tested to be a LOT better.thats just it. I too dint believe that at first, but its true.

Xelloss
22-02-2009, 12:48
Please Black Templars gamers, don't take it as a personal insult, I was one of you once. But I consider them underpowered compared to their blue cousins.

BT player here !
I think your description is pretty accurate. Buff of Black Templars units with 5th Ed is just the outer layer that hide the real decrease of their efficience.
I read Lord Mahone tactica, it is nice but it seems to me that he didn't really grasp this army (and I don't say I do better). Innerwolf mention the cheaper meca unit in vanilla codex, but if you look the free grenades and the bolt pistol, SM troops are in their very essence cheaper than BT ones.

Black Templars are cool, but not powergaming. In a way, I find it is more satisfying to play with them because it compel you to improve your generalship skills.

Lord Malorne
22-02-2009, 13:03
Please enlighten me :).

Codex marine do not get a CCW with there pistols and bolters so they are not in essence cheaper than BT troops.

Not powergaming? Considering the ammount of lascannons, assault cannons and hard as nails combat units they can field...they are more than capable of power gaming. I can if I wish field a Codex marine army, but they would just not perform aswell.

The trouble is many peoples experience with Black Templars, is with new players or inexperienced ones, which is not saying much as codex marines have far more of both playing them.

volair
22-02-2009, 13:49
Black Templar might be good if you mass a lot of troops and take little else.

fluffstalker
22-02-2009, 14:14
I think the way to go with them now is mechanized. Bt footslogging is easy to nullify as they tend not be built with firepower in mind.

With Ig I tend to bog them down with conscripts/commissars or rough riders will hurling pie plates at them. The lack of conslidation into CC means that even if they do hit my lines I can play damage control. If they come in rhinos however, Its much harder to prevent him from reaching my lines intact, esp with the new vehicle rules. Im especially terrified of the Land Raider Crusader and Redeemer, playing an IG force.

Basically a terminator squad in a crusader would be more scary to me then two squads deep striking, or four CCW BP squads rushing across the field.

plowboy22
22-02-2009, 14:30
I think BT are getting a bad rap. I do take a troop heavy army for tourneys. I also field a TLLC dread, TLLC pred and a vindicator in my tourney list. I do quite well with them. I just played a 16 man local tourney and took 1st place. Second and third were Orks and Chaos marines. I think a problem with BT is that a lot of people try to play them like they are regular 'nilla marines. If you do that they will not be competetive. Play them like the fluff is written and they do quite well IMHO.

Nasha
22-02-2009, 15:37
my crusade has always done well
infact i only started playing with them once the latest set of rules were released
kerby

Sypher21
22-02-2009, 16:33
Black Templars and Codex Marines are completely different forces in composition, play style and force. I haven't had much experience with or against the new 5th Marines, but they're just that, dakka dakka dakka, with the occasional odd elite ala deep striking terminators.

While Codex Marines rely on firepower, BT's rely on close combat. Having three/four decked out crusader bloodthirsty overzealous crusader squads running at you faster than fleeting Elfdars ready to RIP AND TEAR is a scary sight. However due to their distinct lack of troop firepower, they have to rely heavily on support elements.

This makes for 5 man double assault cannon terminators, cheap dreadnoughts, and tanks in all flavours.

While you may complain BT's are nerfed with small changes like 'REAL Storm Shields', no relic blades, no psykers and several other changes, you have to understand that they're offset by plenty of other unique perks, moving up to 18 inches a turn is bloody scary, preferred enemy for the ENTIRE army ( reroll to hit rolls in cc ), the Emperor's champion is a true slayer with a (str6?) cc weapon capable of ripping apart both land raider and bloodthirster, as well as most other HQ units, and many more.

Overall, both these armies are more or less balanced in their own right, it simply depends on your preferred play style, and whether you crave for tactical firepower, or close combat bloodshed that puts Blood Angels to shame.

innerwolf
22-02-2009, 17:39
B
While you may complain BT's are nerfed with small changes like 'REAL Storm Shields', no relic blades, no psykers and several other changes, you have to understand that they're offset by plenty of other unique perks, moving up to 18 inches a turn is bloody scary, preferred enemy for the ENTIRE army ( reroll to hit rolls in cc ), the Emperor's champion is a true slayer with a (str6?) cc weapon capable of ripping apart both land raider and bloodthirster, as well as most other HQ units, and many more.


People don't stop talking about that "Preferred enemy armywide! AwEsUM101!", but it's not free at all. It's 40 points(if I remember well) added on top of a garbage model.
Yes, because I think the Emperor Champion is a garbage character forced down your throath. It's a glorified veteran seargent with a relic blade. He is not even that special anymore, as every SM character has WS 6.
Your statement about it is a fallacy. Ripping apart landraiders? With St 6? WTF? And he only have 4 attacks on the charge, if enemy characters have an invulnerable save he isn't ripping apart any one of them.

Illiterate Scribe
22-02-2009, 18:07
Your statement about it is a fallacy. Ripping apart landraiders? With St 6? WTF? And he only have 4 attacks on the charge, if enemy characters have an invulnerable save he isn't ripping apart any one of them.

Quibble - misuse of the word 'fallacy'. His statement could be true - it isn't incoherent - but it isn't.

innerwolf
22-02-2009, 18:24
Quibble - misuse of the word 'fallacy'. His statement could be true - it isn't incoherent - but it isn't.

Sorry, I was looking for the right word and failed ^^

Orkeosaurus
22-02-2009, 18:54
I just came back from a tourny won by Black Templars.

It wasn't the most cutthroat tournament, but it had around 20 people in it, so it wasn't an easy win or anything.

Black Templars are pretty strong.

Fire Harte
22-02-2009, 18:55
I think Lord Malorne's Tactica is pretty spot on. ;)

decker_cky
22-02-2009, 19:17
Yes, because I think the Emperor Champion is a garbage character forced down your throath. It's a glorified veteran seargent with a relic blade. He is not even that special anymore, as every SM character has WS 6.

Funny....they seem to fight exactly like a captain/chapter master with a relic blade. 3 S6 attacks with a 4+ invulnerable at a discount price is nothing to complain about. With the 40 pt vow, they're the same price as the equivalent captain. There's a few minor drawbacks, but still it's a bargain price. How is that being forced down your throat?

Also...it you want to brag about thunderhammer/stormshield termies, black templar get preferred enemy/furious charge twin lightning claw terminators. As far as close combat marines go, they take the cake.

downundercadet07
22-02-2009, 19:20
I think Lord Malorne's Tactica is pretty spot on. ;)

Yeah, especially if you like to measure disembarking movement to the 'back' of the bases, and to ignore inconvenient rules like Righteous Zeal, only when they don't play to your favor, of course. I read the first page and almost choked on it's blatant encouragement of cheating. What a load of garbage.

Lord Malorne
22-02-2009, 19:53
Thanks for the input, not sure about the 'cheating' part though :).

Pyriel
22-02-2009, 20:02
Yeah, especially if you like to measure disembarking movement to the 'back' of the bases, and to ignore inconvenient rules like Righteous Zeal, only when they don't play to your favor, of course. I read the first page and almost choked on it's blatant encouragement of cheating. What a load of garbage.

Before you accuse people of cheating, read the rules.

1. measuring disembarking: Disembarking(specifically) distance CAN be measured from the back to the base and thats what they SHOW , as in, ACTIVELY, in the core rulebook. Yup, thats right, there actually IS a picture where a model has disembarked with 2" being the distance from the hatch to its back and the disembarking is considered proper.This means that the rule isnt only legal as written, but also legal AS INTENDED(very important). so, no cheating there, not even powergaming.

2. Ignoring unconvenient righteous zeal: Cheating isnt when somebody decides his models dont leave a mission objective(fluff-wise it isnt;rules-wise it isnt;what else you need?); cheating is when someone *knows* they must move and shoots them with force he *knows* wont bring them down but will be enough to make them roll for morale-lose to fall back, pass to move away from the objective. so, stating "i move 0.0001 inch" is entirely legal morally.

Its funny how people wont look at things from an objective perspective(as in, whats logical) but only from their own(as in, how to take advantage of the corebook/opponent codex) rules to gain an undeserved win.I dont know if you do that part, but i know you obviously didnt search to be sure before you accused a fellow player.

Lord Malorne
22-02-2009, 20:08
And the sad thing is people moan about RZ being a massive disadvantage followed by 'pulls you off objectives' then when told 'actualy it does not have to pull you off an objctive' it is considered cheating...Thats not very sporting.

Can't please everyone :(.

Fire Harte
22-02-2009, 20:56
Yeah, especially if you like to measure disembarking movement to the 'back' of the bases, and to ignore inconvenient rules like Righteous Zeal, only when they don't play to your favor, of course. I read the first page and almost choked on it's blatant encouragement of cheating. What a load of garbage.

:eyebrows: Yeah, you only have said that because you can't accept what he's said methinks. May be wrong.

innerwolf
22-02-2009, 21:14
Funny....they seem to fight exactly like a captain/chapter master with a relic blade. 3 S6 attacks with a 4+ invulnerable at a discount price is nothing to complain about. With the 40 pt vow, they're the same price as the equivalent captain. There's a few minor drawbacks, but still it's a bargain price. How is that being forced down your throat?


Forced down your throat as in "you have to take it in addition to any more HQ you would like to field, whether you like it or not".
I forgot Relic Blade count as two handed and doesn't give an additional attack with bolt pistol.
However, I still think the Captain is better. 4+ invulnerable save against anything is better/more expensive than 4+ in close combat.

downundercadet07
22-02-2009, 21:26
If that is a new thing in 5th ed, I will take a look at it and retract what I said and apologize. I was under the impression that this was the sort of measuring that assault armies are famous for.

Similarly, I think in any situation where you are declaring a .00001" move, you aren't playing RAI.

decker_cky
22-02-2009, 21:50
However, I still think the Captain is better. 4+ invulnerable save against anything is better/more expensive than 4+ in close combat.

4+ save against everything is better for sure, but you're comparing that with having every model in the army reroll to hit for the same price. The emperor's champion is a far better deal than the equivalent captain. It's not being forced down your throat if it tastes good enough that you're asking for more.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
22-02-2009, 21:56
2. Ignoring unconvenient righteous zeal: Cheating isnt when somebody decides his models dont leave a mission objective(fluff-wise it isnt;rules-wise it isnt;what else you need?); cheating is when someone *knows* they must move and shoots them with force he *knows* wont bring them down but will be enough to make them roll for morale-lose to fall back, pass to move away from the objective. so, stating "i move 0.0001 inch" is entirely legal morally.

I dunno, that seems like pretty thin ice to me. The idea that you tap the model and move it a minuscule fraction of an inch seems... wrong. Part of the question is if the forced movement was meant to be a boost only or a combination boost and disadvantage. The move is mandatory, so I suspect it was the latter. Sounds like a good question for the next GW FAQ. Look for it coming never. :rolleyes:

Orkeosaurus
23-02-2009, 00:37
I dunno, that seems like pretty thin ice to me. The idea that you tap the model and move it a minuscule fraction of an inch seems... wrong. Part of the question is if the forced movement was meant to be a boost only or a combination boost and disadvantage. The move is mandatory, so I suspect it was the latter. Sounds like a good question for the next GW FAQ. Look for it coming never. :rolleyes:On the other hand, didn't they lose the ability to Righteous Zeal into close combat?

LordofWar1986
23-02-2009, 01:07
On the other hand, didn't they lose the ability to Righteous Zeal into close combat?

Yeah so instead it should go back to the 2D6" RZ distance :p

ReveredChaplainDrake
23-02-2009, 02:00
If that is a new thing in 5th ed, I will take a look at it and retract what I said and apologize. I was under the impression that this was the sort of measuring that assault armies are famous for.

Similarly, I think in any situation where you are declaring a .00001" move, you aren't playing RAI.
If you want to play technical RAW, you can Righteous Zeal 0.00000". Since RZ works as a consolidation, and consolidations allow you to move "up to" whatever number of inches you rolled, technically you don't have to move at all. When you say RZ units have to move, you're also saying that units that consolidate in CC must also move and have no option to stand still.

If you want to play RAI with RZ and force them to move, that's fine, but at least be consistent. I want some 3++ Storm Shields, upgraded PotMS, buffed Land Raider sizes, and a Redeemer.

Ironmonger
02-03-2009, 20:05
Yeah, a Redeemer would be nice to ride along next to my Crusader.

As a brand new BT player, I was wondering the best composition in 5th. I'm taking Helbrecht (cause I just watched him chew through Chaos), a Crusader, an EC (as mando) and a lightning claw termie squad led by a termie Chaplain. What else would flesh this out in 5th?

Captain Micha
02-03-2009, 20:10
Bt are awesome and win.

I prefer Suffer The Unclean Not To Live, or Uphold The Honor Of The Emperor myself for my vows.

Assault Termies that hit at str 5. Or massed troops hitting at Str 5 mmmmmm.

Also we get the coolest Land Raider Ever. The Original Crusader. Blessed Hull... is just so awesome!

Doppleskanger
03-03-2009, 01:48
@IronMonger
If you're taking Accept Any Challenge as you're vow, you don't really need the chaplain to accompany the Assault termies. Consider taking 6 or 7 in the squad instead. with furious charge and prefered enemy you hit so hard the chaplain isn't really necessary!

I like a proper on fluff BT army so two full crusade squads, or three, even better! The new mixed armour rules really make this squad fun to play, and no bolters!

In 5th Ed I consider Grimaldius absolutely essential as he can make multiple squads fearless. This is so useful in dawn of war because otherwise you have a squad with Ld8 that has to take a test every time it takes a single casualty. With Grimaldius watching over two crusade squads, they aren't going anywhere, and you can have 44 models on the table on turn one (just look at you're oponent and say, go on, I dare you, shoot at me!)

Darkseid
03-03-2009, 05:35
My buddy decided to start a Black Templar army and he found great advice in this thread. He wanted to say thanks for helping him decide.

blameless
03-03-2009, 07:09
Bt are awesome and win.

I prefer Suffer The Unclean Not To Live, or Uphold The Honor Of The Emperor myself for my vows.

Assault Termies that hit at str 5. Or massed troops hitting at Str 5 mmmmmm.

Also we get the coolest Land Raider Ever. The Original Crusader. Blessed Hull... is just so awesome!

If you upgrade the assault termies to vets they his at str 5 anyway?

but yes the blessed hull rocks the crib :D

Ironmonger
05-03-2009, 01:03
No bolters at all?! Just Bot Pistols and CCW? I'm assembling them now (at least Helbrechts Posse!), and didn't expect to give them any.