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LordChaos76
10-02-2009, 07:05
Now there isn't a GW in all of New England the last one was in Connecticut and closed this month. I went to buy the new Lizardman Army book online, $8 for shipping and $3 for tax? How do u get off charging $8 for shipping a book, and how can u charge tax on purchases if you no longer operate in that state?:confused::wtf:

I fear GW is gonna close all it's stores and let the hobby shops sell it all however the hobby stores only have limited space and have to sell as much as possible to as may types of clients as they can.

I dunno bout you but I'm finding GW ways little annoying.:mad:

Madgear Thundaklutch
10-02-2009, 07:10
They are opening a bunch of stores in the DC area, they claim they are doing well, however us here in Richmond, VA lost our only GW store.

LordChaos76
10-02-2009, 07:12
Some how I doubt that, and I'm sure the Hobby Stores will have little selection.

Madgear Thundaklutch
10-02-2009, 07:23
Doubt which part? I know they are opening new stores, cuz I have friends going to them, the doing well part is iffy though.

Korras
10-02-2009, 07:50
Some how I doubt that, and I'm sure the Hobby Stores will have little selection.

and you doubt that they are doing not so well on what grounds? that the store in your state closed? that doesn't mean that GW as a whole is not doing so well. it means that GW felt that sales in your state were lacking, nothing more, nothing less.

heh. if you take a look at GW's financial statement, you'd see they are doing quite well.

blongbling
10-02-2009, 08:25
stores are a massive expense and as such the opening and closing of stores isnt something that isnt taken lightly by any company.

I am sure that GW is working on opening more stores but with the US being so big they will need to do it piece by piece and not randomly open them across the country

x-esiv-4c
10-02-2009, 12:03
As far as i'm aware, the CT GW was the 15th top earning GW in the nation.

blongbling
10-02-2009, 12:53
top earning does not equal profitable

Bookwrak
10-02-2009, 15:33
Some how I doubt that, and I'm sure the Hobby Stores will have little selection.

Not all of us have your crystal ball.

JLBeady
10-02-2009, 18:23
[QUOTE=LordChaos76;3277801]I went to buy the new Lizardman Army book online, $8 for shipping and $3 for tax? How do u get off charging $8 for shipping a book, and how can u charge tax on purchases if you no longer operate in that state?:confused::wtf:QUOTE]

First I want to say that you should try to support your FLGS or FLGW whenever possible. That said, if your only alternative is to buy online then you owe it to youself to try the online retailers that offer flat shipping and 20% discounts cough..warstore.com.. cough!

As for the tax issue, two things. First, it wouldn't surprise me that it is a case of GW's online order entry system not being updated to reflect the change that fact that they are no longer doing buisness or it cannot be changed until their tax certificate expires, or.....they anticpate opening a nother store very soon and felt it would be to much hassle to stop collecting tax. The second thing to keep in mind is that just because you order something on line doesn't mean there isn't sales tax. It just means that the buisness that your ordered from isn't responbile for collecting it. You are responsbile for paying the tax directly. However, states don't have the resources or the legal recourse to chase down people who buy online and don't pay the sales tax. That is why many states want the federal government to step in and force online retailers to collect sales tax regardless of where they "do buisness" but based on the ship to address.

Finally, GW has stated repeatedly that they are committed to increasing the number of GW locations as they see this as a conerstone of their growth strategy. But like any buisness that invests in Brick and Mortor locations, sometimes vairous issues can affect store openings, closings, and locations. Case in point, supposedly GW is in the process of closing the "Mills" stores because of lease problems with the owner of the "Mills" malls. It's not that GW wants to close the stores or that the stores are not making money, but that they are unable to continue operating the store given the contraints of the property owner has placed on them.

Orinoco
10-02-2009, 18:35
hmm. hmmm. mmmmm. Yes.

Thommy H
10-02-2009, 18:37
Anyone would think there was some sort of global financial crisis going on.

Crazy Harborc
11-02-2009, 01:38
At the last stockholders meeting, A plan was discussed for changes in the USA. Closing all the Mills mall stores. Then opening new stores close to select schools (I'm guessing, High Schools).

There was an extensive thread/discussion on Warseer at the time. NO mention was made about any concern for the customers who bought and or gamed in those now closed stores.

IMHO, based on what GW, USA has NOT done.......GW is just going to write off the areas of those closed stores. Perhaps like this area, GW expects the previous local indies (who built the markets GW stepped into) to step back in and stock GW's products (until GW reopens a store in the indies market).

By the by, BEFORE GW opened a official store in this area there were 14 plus stores (listed in monthly WDs). Until GW closed it's official store there have been only 4 listed for this area of my state.

galad
11-02-2009, 01:47
That's a shame about the CT store I used to shop there. That's a nice busy area too and I find it hard to believe they couldn't stay open. Although mall rent is usually ridiculously expensive.

Meanwhile I went home to visit last week and there is GW store in my hometown of Westminster Maryland. Now it is hard to put this into perspective for anyone who has never been there but Westminster is a dinky little town in the country. Sure it has grown and its not too far from Baltimore it still blows my freaking mind that a town like that can support a GW store but they close the one in Charlotte NC which probably has 5x the population. But then again the Charlotte store was in Concord Mills which probably charged 10x the rent.

BTW they guys in the Westminster store were really cool, they didn't pester me to buy useless crap the whole time I was there, they only hit me with a sales pitch when I expressed interest in new models which is expected. They were not fanboi's but could actually discuss the hobby intelligently - which is rare in my GW experience.

Seandy
11-02-2009, 01:50
That really sucks

BlazeXI
11-02-2009, 06:00
Now there isn't a GW in all of New England the last one was in Connecticut and closed this month. I went to buy the new Lizardman Army book online, $8 for shipping and $3 for tax? How do u get off charging $8 for shipping a book, and how can u charge tax on purchases if you no longer operate in that state?:confused::wtf:

I fear GW is gonna close all it's stores and let the hobby shops sell it all however the hobby stores only have limited space and have to sell as much as possible to as may types of clients as they can.

I dunno bout you but I'm finding GW ways little annoying.:mad:

Why would anyone from US want to buy directly from GW and not from http://www.thewarstore.com/. They are so effective GW does not let them publish the GW range online (I wonder if they are allowed to do that?). Just call them up. I have made a few international orders and orders shipped to US locations and am more than happy with them.

Tizz
11-02-2009, 06:48
They've opened 4 store in Washington in the past 6 or so months....

Neckutter
11-02-2009, 08:08
they closed the phoenix arizona store several months ago, and it was pretty lame. all in all, i would never order something direct from GW anymore, since i used to spend around $100 on assorted bits every month... and now i cant do so. i usually buy the book and 1/2 the armies i play from my local store, and the rest on ebay.

Norsehawk
11-02-2009, 11:56
The gaming community has never had a GW store, and I doubt we will be getting one any time soon either. I make do with the Local stores here (which either don't have tables and a discount (and a tiny selection), or tiny tables with no discount (and cardboard crack gamers all over them)

I often go there to buy something, leave disappointed that they don't have it in (I went for the Ork Trukk, Snikrot, and/or Land raider crusader/redeemer last time and they didn't have a single one of them)

So overall, I do put in quite a few orders a year from the fine online retailers.

Korras
11-02-2009, 12:46
I've never had a GW closeby, the closest is an hour and a half away by train (and really, you do not want to take your car to Amsterdam and (try to) park it there..). we did have a model-train store that stocked GW stuff, but he's quitting that, and no longer ordering new stuff.

according to White Dwarf, there's two new independent stockist in my city, but I've yet to check them out. basically, I go to the GW store every now and then, and order most of my stuff online. with the pound having dropped so much, even Forgeworld became affordeable. :)

bluemeenie
11-02-2009, 13:00
there was a GW store in Gurnee Mills Illinios they just shuttered...thought it was doing well. TBH though I wish they had not as they drove a lot of smaller shops out of business in the area that relied on GW and forced the Gamestops to stop selling GW items. Now you have to drive to Schaumberg area to get anything direct from them (unless you go on the web)

Deathklaat
11-02-2009, 13:05
they closed the phoenix arizona store several months ago, and it was pretty lame. all in all, i would never order something direct from GW anymore, since i used to spend around $100 on assorted bits every month... and now i cant do so. i usually buy the book and 1/2 the armies i play from my local store, and the rest on ebay.

the GW at AZ Mills was a joke. 4x4 tables, 1 hour of play AND i have to carry my army through the mall.. finding a close spot at that mall was near to impossible. it was a shame that Arizona Gamer closed just after the AZ GW opened. they had tons of room, RT, gaming nights for various GW and non GW games. After they closed it was hard finding any 40k games after that Game Depot was a joke because half of the players made their own rules as they went.

marv335
11-02-2009, 13:56
mall/shopping center rents are expensive.
It may look like they're raking it in, but the costs can easily wipe out a profitable store.
At the end of the day GW is a business, Let's face it if they were making money off the shop it would have remained open.
If you're shopping online rather than your local shop (be it GW or indy) don't be surprised if shop's closed.
You have to balance the online discount over having somewhere to play.

Reinholt
11-02-2009, 14:11
I see two countervailing forces that are the problem here:

1 - Stores in malls are not cheap. You have to be open for longer hours, the rents are higher, and you have less space. I agree that GW moving out of malls and to strip mall / independent building locations is going to be vastly more effective. They can trim down the hours (who the hell goes to GW at 9 in the morning), have lower rents, and thus survive on a smaller customer base.

Thus, it's probably a smart move to close the stores.

2 - GW has been ineffective in the US retail space for quite some time. I don't know why; they seem unable to find a coherent strategy in the US and stick with it to the point that it works. I'm unaware if it's only one guy who has been in charge of US retail this entire time (and he should be fired if that's true), or if there is the usual revolving door of personnel, but their store locations have been strange, their market selection has made absolutely no sense on a pretty consistent basis, and their discipline as a retail chain is terrible.

Given this sort of zig-zag behavior, GW is burning bridges with customers, discouraging people from joining the hobby, and having their retail stores serve exactly the purpose they are meant to be serving, only in reverse! They function as some kind of weird anti-marketing by giving a highly negative view of the hobby when the company closes down stores after driving out independent retailers in an area, and I suspect the area never quite recovers to what it was after a GW pulls out.

Thus, they should not close stores.

So, with all of that said, what I'd like to see is:

- Mills mall and other malls stores closed with announcements that the store will be re-opening at a street-side location for customers.

- Better location choices in the first place to prevent this problem in the first place.

- More of an effort made to build long-term sustainable sales, which means the churn 'n burn model of mall sales will not work, and is more suited to non-mall locations anyways.

bluemeenie
11-02-2009, 14:23
mall/shopping center rents are expensive.
It may look like they're raking it in, but the costs can easily wipe out a profitable store.
At the end of the day GW is a business, Let's face it if they were making money off the shop it would have remained open.
If you're shopping online rather than your local shop (be it GW or indy) don't be surprised if shop's closed.
You have to balance the online discount over having somewhere to play.

Part of me wonders if it wasn't their intent to drive the local buisness out in the first place.....


I know that they withheld new releases from stores near GW shops and did some really wacky things with shipping costs...(like free shipping to GW stores but charged shipping costs to retailers)


TBH I think if they want to be competitive then they need to start price matching stuff to online companies...


I don't know about most but if I did have a local GW retailer and knew that he would price match someone like "thewarstore's" discount if I bought a certain dollar amount, then I would get some friends together and do that as I would much rather just pay now and get it then wait a week for it to be shipped. (and the sometime wrong order issue)

bluemeenie
11-02-2009, 14:24
Ohhh.....and bring back the bitz service to local shops....MORE BITZ

blongbling
11-02-2009, 15:42
did some really wacky things with shipping costs...(like free shipping to GW stores but charged shipping costs to retailers)



not really whacky when you consider that GW will ship restock orders to its own stores so they can put the mail orders in with those orders for free, knowing that they will be sent an order every week..........

Sai-Lauren
11-02-2009, 16:37
For the tax situation, isn't there some legal battle going on between the state of New York and someone like Amazon about having them to charge state sales tax and then pay it to that state, even though they have no premises in NY?

marv335
11-02-2009, 17:11
TBH I think if they want to be competitive then they need to start price matching stuff to online companies...


Completely impractical.
A B&M store like GW or any other retailer can't price match an online only retailer, they have too many overheads.
no wages, no rent, no business rates, no power bills, etc
The lower profit margin on B&M means that online always wins the price war.

Bookwrak
11-02-2009, 17:49
For the tax situation, isn't there some legal battle going on between the state of New York and someone like Amazon about having them to charge state sales tax and then pay it to that state, even though they have no premises in NY?

Actually, I believe it was a government proposal that sales tax be paid according to where the customer is, so that online sellers like Amazon would be paying tax where ever someone bought from it. The idea has, of course, met with a lot of resistance, primarily for being moronically stupid. The cost of compliance would break any company selling online, especially the smaller ones, since every state has it's own individual sales tax laws and the company would have to be familiar with, and follow, each and every one of them.

JLBeady
11-02-2009, 19:01
Actually, I believe it was a government proposal that sales tax be paid according to where the customer is, so that online sellers like Amazon would be paying tax where ever someone bought from it. The idea has, of course, met with a lot of resistance, primarily for being moronically stupid. The cost of compliance would break any company selling online, especially the smaller ones, since every state has it's own individual sales tax laws and the company would have to be familiar with, and follow, each and every one of them.

Hence the dilemma. States lose tax money that they would presumably collect if there was not an online retailer taking business from a local B&M location, but every state has merchants who sell online who might close/reduce staff if unable to sell online due to cost of compliance thus reducing that states tax revenue.

Back on topic. I don't know if GW can be blamed for one area going from 14 indie stores to 4. In my area, we reached a peak of about 12 to 15 indie stores that then started declining before GW opened stores. These stores varied greatly in selection in both GW and non-GW product and other amenities (dedicated gaming space/RTT host to no gaming space/hobby support). My personal observation was that their own bad business decisions lead to their store closings more than anything else. Only one store could I honestly say was hurt by GW opening a store, but the GW store blew them away by having more product and more dedicated gaming space. As much loyalty as we may have had towards the store and it's owner, GW was providing what we wanted in a way far superior to what he could.

bluemeenie
12-02-2009, 00:35
Hence the dilemma. States lose tax money that they would presumably collect if there was not an online retailer taking business from a local B&M location, but every state has merchants who sell online who might close/reduce staff if unable to sell online due to cost of compliance thus reducing that states tax revenue.

Back on topic. I don't know if GW can be blamed for one area going from 14 indie stores to 4. In my area, we reached a peak of about 12 to 15 indie stores that then started declining before GW opened stores. These stores varied greatly in selection in both GW and non-GW product and other amenities (dedicated gaming space/RTT host to no gaming space/hobby support). My personal observation was that their own bad business decisions lead to their store closings more than anything else. Only one store could I honestly say was hurt by GW opening a store, but the GW store blew them away by having more product and more dedicated gaming space. As much loyalty as we may have had towards the store and it's owner, GW was providing what we wanted in a way far superior to what he could.



Yah, but lets be honest...7-10 years ago how many other Mainstream games like this were there to keep a store going???

GW brought nerdy roleplaying to the masses and perfected it (well as perfect as it could be)...

I have a feeling that alot of those stores did more volume in GW/Citadel products then anything else.

Yah there was D&D and Battlemech..but you never saw huge amounts of people dropping crap loads of money on this type of hobby on a continual basis with the way GW cycled the game.

Now there are more choices in this genre and honestly if these GW's do close out after taking out most the competition then it's gonna take awhile these stores to come back IMO>

Reinholt
12-02-2009, 00:58
Yah, but lets be honest...7-10 years ago how many other Mainstream games like this were there to keep a store going???

GW brought nerdy roleplaying to the masses and perfected it (well as perfect as it could be)...

I have a feeling that alot of those stores did more volume in GW/Citadel products then anything else.

Yah there was D&D and Battlemech..but you never saw huge amounts of people dropping crap loads of money on this type of hobby on a continual basis with the way GW cycled the game.

Have you heard of Magic: The Gathering or Pokemon by any chance?

Cardboard crack is what powered a lot of the gaming stores 7 - 10 years ago.

bluemeenie
12-02-2009, 04:58
IDk....maybe it's me, but I don't see 2 dollar packs of cards sustaining an entire store.


especially since those are available at any WalMart or convenience store in town. (and sometimes at better discounts..)

Bookwrak
12-02-2009, 06:21
Well yes, but that's because you're only looking at the post-collapse market.

You obviously know very little about CCGs as well if you think people only buy single $2 packs. There's a reason for that first C. :D

Madgear Thundaklutch
12-02-2009, 07:26
IDk....maybe it's me, but I don't see 2 dollar packs of cards sustaining an entire store.



Coming from someone who has collected MTG before, its not only the chance to cheaply get a rare card that is either worth money, effective in game, or both, its also the love of the art work, the flavor text, the feeling you get by collecting every card in an expansion set.


And since you are un educated regarding the MTG tourrney scene, they only allow you to play with like the current base set and 3 or 4 current expansions, so everytime a new expansion comes out, you have to replace some cards


these two examples are how a $2 booster supports a store, because it isnt a $2 booster, its several $90 boxes of cards, its counters, card sleeves, its scrye, wizard, etc

Llew
12-02-2009, 13:44
Completely impractical.
A B&M store like GW or any other retailer can't price match an online only retailer, they have too many overheads.
no wages, no rent, no business rates, no power bills, etc
The lower profit margin on B&M means that online always wins the price war.

You do realize that GW, as a manufacturer, can beat the price of any of their resellers if they so desire, right? GW's hybrid status as a retail/manufacturer screws up all sorts of normal practices, but it doesn't magically make the cost go up for them.

Now, brick and mortar FLGS's can't directly afford to compete with online only sellers, but that's a different issue.

blongbling
12-02-2009, 13:47
it is a testament to GW that they always hold the line on pricing themsevles though....

Ward.
12-02-2009, 14:26
IDk....maybe it's me, but I don't see 2 dollar packs of cards sustaining an entire store.

They don't, it's often things like the release and casual store tournaments that bring in the real sustainable money.




And since you are uneducated regarding the MTG tourney scene,

What serious tournament MTG player buys boosters? ;)

Reinholt
12-02-2009, 15:25
You do realize that GW, as a manufacturer, can beat the price of any of their resellers if they so desire, right? GW's hybrid status as a retail/manufacturer screws up all sorts of normal practices, but it doesn't magically make the cost go up for them.

If they want to take a loss, sure.

Keep in mind GW could be considered to have three portions of their business:

1 - Design & Production

Fed By Design & Production:

2 - Trade Sales, Online Sales, and Marketing (sales to independent retailers or to online customers)
3 - Retail Brick & Mortar Sales

This, of course, ignores the weird stuff like IP licensing, but we'll pretend that doesn't exist for now.

My point, however, is that they are paying the bills for both their retail stores and their independent retailer distribution no matter where product exits the company. Selling cheap online doesn't eliminate their rent and labor expense for retail, and selling only through retail doesn't mean anything unless they eliminate all of their staff and resources to handle independent retailer relations and sales.

Because they are a funky hybrid company, they inherit the profit and costs from both sides of the chain - in other words, if GW sells direct to customers via mail order (which they can do cheaper than an independent retailer, since it eliminates a step in the value chain), they can have the lowest price... but what about their retail chain's expenses? Thus, if GW wants to beat the price of the online retailers and to do so consistently and profitably without taking losses, they need to shut down their entire retail chain.

That would probably cause volume to collapse, however, and you'd be right back to square one.

bluemeenie
12-02-2009, 17:50
well.....Least they could bring back the bits order section... :(

Nuada
12-02-2009, 18:53
well.....Least they could bring back the bits order section... :(

They were losing money with the bits order section, that's why GW stopped it.

An example is the gnoblar scraplauncher; a customer would buy the rhinox model, and then convert the huge sledge/chariot section.

That's not the only reason. You have to store every single component for every model in serperate trays, and all the box sets. Also imagine how long it will take a despatch worker to pick out a list of 30 individual items compared to picking up a box. Added to that you can get wrong orders delivered etc etc

I do prefer the old bit order section myself :) but unfortunately i doubt it will ever come back.

x-esiv-4c
12-02-2009, 19:29
Perhaps they could reinstitute it with a minimum $ amount per order. If you want bits, you have to order at least 40$ worth of bits (for example).

captainramoz
12-02-2009, 20:07
Are they going to open stores in latin america.

ankara halla
12-02-2009, 20:08
The problem with the argument, that "they were loosing money with it" is manyfold.

A) If one guy couldn't keep up with all the bitz orders, then they were selling them for too cheap! Yeah, you read right. I said it. If that was a factor, then double the prices or at least increase them to a level where it doesn't take more resources than a guy or two and a bunch of storage space.

B) It's not like GW were loosing money selling them in the first place. If they were, they were doing it wrong. No need to kill the operation, merely to refine it. It's revenue stream that's now closed to them. Who benefits? No one!

C) If the argument was, that that one guy could be packing a dozen boxes/blitzers instead of a dozen XYZ bitz, and that those boxes have a higher profit margin, then that's extreamly short sighted too. Unbelivably so, becouse a vast majority of bitz sold, were sold becouse they were used for a conversion, which more often than not required a purchase of a box/blizter to make it happend!. See, it wasn't just the sale of the bitz that should be accounted for, but the sale of the box/blizer that it was used for!. Okay, it's impossible to track what bitz was used for what box/blitzer, but that is absolutely no excuse not to take the big picture into consideration.

Okay, this might not affect new buyers, but it certainly kicks them in the jingles in the long run after people get tired of boxed sets which produce miniatures that are copies of other peoples minies. To an extent creativity is culled with this new policy. A lot of people would evolve to customising their minies if it were fast and easy (the trend of our times), now they just get bored with it and move on. That's all lost revenue. Pennies for sure, when compared to the rest of the business, but to not take advantage of every possible revenue stream is simply bad business.

Directly, it looses them some money, but more importantly, inderectly it looses them a lot more, since people aren't buying the boxes/blizers they otherwise would to convert the bezeejus out of them with easily available bitz parts.

Bookwrak
12-02-2009, 20:16
So you say. Reality seems to prove you wrong.

You also seem ignorant on how business operations work, especially as illustrated by point A. What would've been weighed was 'how much does it cost us to provide the service now? How can we streamline the service to make it cheaper? What will our cost/profit ratio be?"

B: If they weren't losing money selling bits... they wouldn't have stopped selling them.

C: You're assuming that the big picture wasn't taken into consideration. What was the ratio of people who if unable to make a conversion would then have bought nothing at all?

For example, their projections might've ended up indicating that there was no real cost efficient way to keep on providing an extra bits service, and that the projected sales to bit resellers who have to buy whole kits to get the parts provided an acceptable cushion for the lose of direct bit sales.

ankara halla
12-02-2009, 21:08
So you say. Reality seems to prove you wrong.

Okay


You also seem ignorant on how business operations work, especially as illustrated by point A. What would've been weighed was 'how much does it cost us to provide the service now? How can we streamline the service to make it cheaper? What will our cost/profit ratio be?"

Well, I am quite aware what it takes to collect orders that consists of an x-number of pieces of this, and an x-number of pieces of that. I used to manage a warehouse that sold spare parts to technical lighting systems (you know, the kinds you see in supermarkets and shopping malls for example) and belive me, there are a large number of different systems that all require induvidual parts made to the manufacturer of said system, and the company I worked for catered catered to a large number of different manufacturers (which all have multiple systems...). The catalogue was thousands of induvidual parts and while every order usually consentrated on one or two different systems at once, it's was still a chore keeping it all in order. Yet, it made good money.

And seriously, these kinds of things all provide solid numbers you can run thru and analyze. It's not magic and certainly nothing that should be above a company as big as GW. If they can't find a profit margin for such a sales channel, that's their failing. If they are unwilling to do so, that's their choise.


B: If they weren't losing money selling bits... they wouldn't have stopped selling them.

Unless they figured the resources spent there would turn a bigger profit selling boxes/blizers. Read thru my previous post to see the correlations and faulty logic in that. I'll be happy to elaborate though, if it still isn't clear.


C: You're assuming that the big picture wasn't taken into consideration. What was the ratio of people who if unable to make a conversion would then have bought nothing at all?

Yes I am.

And in regards to your question, I might as well ask, what was the ratio of people who stopped buying that extra box/blister becouse they couldn't easily buy the bitz's they would've needed to convert it?

Again, it's not possible to answer that anymore than it is possible to answer your question, but it's moot anyway. The point was and is, that now it's a closed stream of revenue to the company, no matter which way you look at it.

To argue that it's not profitable to sell bitz, tell that to all the bitz selling stores that have spawned since GW closed down their service... If anything, for a big enough company, such as GW, having a corner in a warehouse and a guy or two to pack bitz is far more economical in the grand scheme of things, than it is for a couple of guys making their living breaking down kits in their garage to sell on ebay. Yet those bitz selling businesses have flourished.


For example, their projections might've ended up indicating that there was no real cost efficient way to keep on providing an extra bits service, and that the projected sales to bit resellers who have to buy whole kits to get the parts provided an acceptable cushion for the lose of direct bit sales.

There is no way to make those projections! That's a big part of my point. You have no way of knowing how many boxes/blister -sales those few bitz you just sold will amount to. All you can project, with an extreamly narrow vision with some poor loggic added, is that those few guys who worked the bitz section could have just as easily been packing SM battleforces in their work hours, which have a much bigger profit margin than a thunder hammer from than Inquisitor figure.

Yet, the small businesses breaking up their boxes and selling the bitz induvidually are doing great! Why exactly would GW be unable to turn a profit from a similiar function? They have much better resources to do so, yet they have chosen not to.

It's just bad business.

bluemeenie
12-02-2009, 22:40
So you say. Reality seems to prove you wrong.

You also seem ignorant on how business operations work, especially as illustrated by point A. What would've been weighed was 'how much does it cost us to provide the service now? How can we streamline the service to make it cheaper? What will our cost/profit ratio be?"

B: If they weren't losing money selling bits... they wouldn't have stopped selling them.

C: You're assuming that the big picture wasn't taken into consideration. What was the ratio of people who if unable to make a conversion would then have bought nothing at all?

For example, their projections might've ended up indicating that there was no real cost efficient way to keep on providing an extra bits service, and that the projected sales to bit resellers who have to buy whole kits to get the parts provided an acceptable cushion for the lose of direct bit sales.

You know honestly i have happened to stumble in 4 different topics that you've posted in...and in each response you make towards people seems to be ruder then the next...

be for the life of me I can't tell if you really are, or just the way you try to explain things.




@Ankara

I work deeply with SAP and TBH you can with the right systems get fairly decent data in that respect if you want to.

Granted your right it won't be perfect because you will have the random "crude I bought that box last week and that bit would look cool on it" but other then that you can use the software to correlate how many bitz orders were taken in conjunction with box sets by the same purchaser.

And honestly even the week later argument can be dealt with on some level if you keep a good customer order history as you can show historical corrolaries between box sets ordered and then subsequent bitz ordered after that.

I would feel safe to assume that for 98% of the bitz orders out there, there was probably a box/blister order that took place either that day or within a few week period as the customer got to building the model.

Nuada
12-02-2009, 23:01
To an extent creativity is culled with this new policy.

Yes, i completely agree with you there. I think it's a shame that GW stopped the bits ordering, it's discouraging conversions on figures.

Maybe it's just me, but this is a pattern i've seen emerging over the years with GW. They don't seem to encourage your own creative input as much as they used to. Again, maybe this makes perfect sense from a buisness point of view. Compared to years ago when people would scratch build their terrain (i did), GW now provide everything you need.

Crazy Harborc
13-02-2009, 02:27
Deathklaat and Reinholt....What they had/have to say about their areas and what they think GW has done/not done sounded VERY familar to what I experienced and watched others (known to me) experience before during and now after GW opened it's 'official store" in this area.

Here, the non-GW gamers (wargamers, cardgamers etc) were lucky the main indie stores that had built the local GW gaming/buying base did not just depend on GW fans for income. That was several other stores. They are now gone.

To be honest, I and my regular opponents and 20-30 non-regular LONG time known wargamers were into wargaming BEFORE....GW published it's first sets of rules. Sadly, the majority of the GW store's younger/newbies regulars are now stuck with minies and nowhere to game with them. Oh, IMHO it is a safe bet the local indie chainstore will gear up again......Then again??

LordChaos76
13-02-2009, 04:56
From what I've heard there's suppose to be 3 store types

1) Entry level only selling a few items to stem interest. Size of a closet
2) Store which sells the full line but no gaming. Size of a large bathroom
3) Sells everything an has gaming on site. Normal store size

Store 3 is going to be regional and in my area that's 2hrs away in Boston, Yet they have no stores in Boston currently one of the larger US cities.

ankara halla
13-02-2009, 05:41
@Ankara

I work deeply with SAP and TBH you can with the right systems get fairly decent data in that respect if you want to.

Granted your right it won't be perfect because you will have the random "crude I bought that box last week and that bit would look cool on it" but other then that you can use the software to correlate how many bitz orders were taken in conjunction with box sets by the same purchaser.

And honestly even the week later argument can be dealt with on some level if you keep a good customer order history as you can show historical corrolaries between box sets ordered and then subsequent bitz ordered after that.

I would feel safe to assume that for 98% of the bitz orders out there, there was probably a box/blister order that took place either that day or within a few week period as the customer got to building the model.

Well, yes, you certainly do have a point, but I'd like to point out, that while bitz sales are and were trackable by GW, I'd challenge that they are able to correlate to box/bitz sales. At least easily.

Okay, anecdotal evidence, but I at least only ever bougth anything directly from GW, if they were bitz. A large part of this has to do with the fact, that the Indy I like has been around decades longer in Finland than GW has, so I support it whenever I can out of habit. But they didn't/don't sell bitz, so GW was the way to go with them. Anyway, any sales of those boxes/blisters I'll use for conversions would not show up with GW's sales of bitz to me, since they come from different sales channels. And that's another thing. A *lot* of people by their boxes/blisters from online discount sellers. But until GW stopped their bitz service, relatively few of those sold bitz to begin with, so again, anybody out there that bought that blister for 20% off and then made a separate order for those bitz to convert it, would not be trackable by GW.
And then there's the second hand market. A vast majority of my conversions are made from models I've bought 2nd hand. Again, no sales correlation to any channels GW could track.

Sure, that's about as anecdotal as it gets, but I can't imagine I'm alone in this. It's propably very different for anybody in the UK, since GW is The channel you'd buy your minies from (apart from online sellers), but for a large part of the rest of the world, there are and were options with B&M stores along with the afore mentioned online sellers.

LordChaos76
13-02-2009, 06:15
Dont be jackin my thread nordic

bluemeenie
13-02-2009, 14:34
On a side note to the bitz discussion, and one I think GW stores (or others) could pick up on that seems to work for a local hobby shop here in Michigan.

They have been giving small discounts on new purchases for people that bring in lots of bitz to the store, and then they have set up a bunch of those nut/bolt storage unit and reselling those bits to others..and their collection is pretty popular and wide now.

I could deffinately see a GW store being able to do this and if not turn a small profit at least break even on this concept as again having the bitz avaliable in store does 3 things in my mind.

1. Garners interest in new box/blisters
2. makes the bitz selection local thus negating the shipping/packing costs they talked about
3. allows them to supplement that supply with their own extra in store bitz from the store projects they always have..which in the long run reduces the costs associated with updating those storm armies...


IDK...I think there are enough non-moders out there that would jump at a chance to have a 2-5% discount on new products if they were told they had to bring in a few kilos or whatever of bitz..

Reinholt
13-02-2009, 17:17
A few thoughts:

1 - On the subject of bits ordering, without knowing the exact discussions GW had, I doubt that we have a good idea of why they canceled it. With that said, I'm not about to ascribe any level of extreme competence to the company based on what I've seen them say regarding operations previously... most companies do not make intelligent decisions, and you live in a fantasy world if you think they do.

Usually the only way to get people to consistently make intelligent business decisions is to provide someone with a hurdle rate and either a required cash flow or growth rate, and then shut them down if they don't reach them to serve as an example to others. Warren Buffett is particularly good at this.

I doubt GW is that disciplined about their project selection, maintenance, and expansion/revision, based on past evidence.

2 - On the subject of store openings in the United States, I would charitably called GW's strategy thus far laughable. I've seen retail chains that were run more poorly than GW, though all of them are currently (or soon to be) bankrupt.

3 - GW survives largely because of the first-mover effect and lack of credible competition (their competitors approach them from a "we'll make cooler stuff!" perspective, not a "we'll run a better business!" perspective). Major change will probably only come when one of two things happen:

- The miniature market becomes bad/small enough that GW doesn't make a return high enough for the vast majority of people to be interested in owning the stock (this has happened before - there are no publicly traded horse and buggy companies anymore, for instance).

- A smarter competitor with major operations / distribution / retail experience enters the space and lays the lumber on GW until they either respond or die.

The smart solution would be to do many of these things before they face major competition internal to their niche, but very few companies do the smart thing, and I say that having looked at a lot of companies.

JLBeady
13-02-2009, 22:22
I'll be the first to agree that GW's current store locations seem to defy commonly accepted assumptions, i.e. GW would have at least one store in the top 33 metro areas of the the US, and multiple stores in the top 10.

Obviously there are more variables than that. I have not heard anyone say that Boston is underserved. In fact from my perspective, it seems that Boston and New England in general is a center of miniture wargaming with better access to a larger cross section of gaming. Where as in Houston it seems at times that it is GW or nothing. And if it wasn't for GW, there would be nothing.

Rank&Foul
13-02-2009, 23:04
They've opened 4 store in Washington in the past 6 or so months....

Thats cuz we LOVE Fantasy and 40k

Ward.
14-02-2009, 02:43
B) It's not like GW were loosing money selling them in the first place. If they were, they were doing it wrong. No need to kill the operation, merely to refine it. It's revenue stream that's now closed to them. Who benefits? No one!

Just to clarify, by refine you don't mean convert it into bulk packets of bits and removing the items that had low sale rates do you?

Maskedman5oh4
14-02-2009, 04:58
Yes, i completely agree with you there. I think it's a shame that GW stopped the bits ordering, it's discouraging conversions on figures.

Maybe it's just me, but this is a pattern i've seen emerging over the years with GW. They don't seem to encourage your own creative input as much as they used to. Again, maybe this makes perfect sense from a buisness point of view. Compared to years ago when people would scratch build their terrain (i did), GW now provide everything you need.

Have you ever gave up on a conversion because you couldn't piece order bits from GW? I never have. I. found. another. way.

You argument is pretty contradictory actually...

I think it's a shame that GW stopped the bits ordering, it's discouraging conversions on figures.

Compared to years ago when people would scratch build their terrain (i did), GW now provide everything you need.

lab2299
14-02-2009, 08:09
i have two gw within about 5 miles i think they should space them out

ankara halla
14-02-2009, 09:25
Just to clarify, by refine you don't mean convert it into bulk packets of bits and removing the items that had low sale rates do you?

I don't mean anything specific, I mean it's an operation that not impossible to run profitably. If they were loosing money with it, they weren't doing it right and should have refined their operation.

And bulk packets of bits is not the same thing as bits. For bits, people now need to go to third parties, but fortunately the internet is full of bits sellers.

Bookwrak
14-02-2009, 19:41
I don't mean anything specific, I mean it's an operation that not impossible to run profitably.
You're going to need to provide evidence to back this statement up.

yabbadabba
14-02-2009, 20:05
When it comes to the bitz service, I think it was business-wise a quite straight forward decision to make, but PR-wise a toughy.

I think in part Ankhara was right. They were charging too little for the bitz service in relation to how much investment was having to be put in. I also think that when compared to their business decisions on things like the development of the game, the options available on plastic sprues et al, decision to significantly increase the price of bitz or to drop them and re-assess the whole service then became a much easier option. We have to remember that GW bear all the cost for their bitz service and it would have laid outside of the normal operating system of the factory.

We don't know but they might have been looking at a significant increase in cost and decided that dropping them would have been less negative than upping the prices and then dropping it anyway in 3-5 years.

ankara halla
14-02-2009, 20:12
You're going to need to provide evidence to back this statement up.

Okay, the dozens of bitz selling services that have sprung up and flourished after GW killed their bitz services. There are quite a number of these out there now days.

Have you been paying attention to the thread at all? What you are asking is nothing that hasn't allready been covered here in a number of previous posts.

t-tauri
14-02-2009, 20:33
It's possible to run profitably on a cottage industry level for plastic bits as the bits seller's show. If you can sit in front of the TV clipping bitz you can make some money. Reselling Forge World can make even more money.

What wasn't profitable for GW was maintaining a stock of each and every metal part they'd ever produced. Casting the pieces to order was even more inefficient. I believe they looked at what sold and looked at what it was costing and found that what profit they made was being eaten up in supporting the stocking of thousands of bits no-one bought. Dead stock in the unused bodies or legs from whole models which only sold heads or arms also impacts the balance sheet.

I'd love them to bring back the bitz system the way it was. It's just not going to happen as it just wasn't making them money.

Bookwrak
15-02-2009, 05:14
And then there was the disaster of the great storage shelving collapse where pretty much every bit in stock got dumped, and the best thing to do with that was to sell them off by weight, since resorting them or anything else other than melting them down and starting over again wasn't very feasible.

Where ankara hall is failing is in his insistence that there was some streamlining solution that would've made the full bits catalog completely workable. Raising prices would've been one option, but people whining about how expensive bits were was already one of those regularly occurring thread topics. Conversion projects and the bits needed to do them was a regular part of White Dwarf back then. If there'd been a feasible way to streamline the service, they had a vested interest in doing it.

The independent bit sellers serves GW as a pretty good alternative, because the resellers have to buy entire kits to get the parts, and selling a full retail piece instead of a custom part is always going to be more profitable.

TheDarkDuke
16-02-2009, 01:26
Now there isn't a GW in all of New England the last one was in Connecticut and closed this month. I went to buy the new Lizardman Army book online, $8 for shipping and $3 for tax? How do u get off charging $8 for shipping a book, and how can u charge tax on purchases if you no longer operate in that state?:confused::wtf:

I fear GW is gonna close all it's stores and let the hobby shops sell it all however the hobby stores only have limited space and have to sell as much as possible to as may types of clients as they can.

I dunno bout you but I'm finding GW ways little annoying.:mad:

Because you are charged for shipping at the same price unless you go over a threshold and then it becomes free. Pretty simple and well I would say 75%+ of online stores if not more do this. You still have to pay tax based off of your state. Its a good supplied from the US warehouse and they must abide by country and state law and charge you that tax. If you are in a state with no tax on that type of good, then you do not pay that tax. I live in Ontario, I have to pay Ontario taxes 13% so stop complaining about your 3%.

Crazy Harborc
16-02-2009, 02:09
Just a flash back to a couple of years (maybe more) ago when GW actually posted the shipping and handling chart IN the back portion of the monthly WDs. I do hope the charges are less than then. So does GW actually have a threshold overwhich shipping and handling becomes free?

By the by........ $3(USD) for sales taxes is NOT the same as 3%. Most states of the USA that have a retail sales tax, charge 5 to 8 maybe 8.5 per cent of the total spent.

13% does suck big time.:(

Templar Ben
16-02-2009, 21:19
You're going to need to provide evidence to back this statement up.

You need evidence of a company that maintains thousands of SKUs and is profitable?

galad
21-02-2009, 15:33
The company I used to work for had 5 warehouses (just in this state) with thousands of different products. We could look up and find where every pallet was located - each warehouse and every spot was given an ID. You could find how many cases were on a pallet, how many items in a case, how much a case weighed, how long it had been there etc. I could also go in and look at all this at any other location worldwide. We used SAP and another system so there is no reason that a company can't maintain thousands of skus and be profitable. But apparantly GW can't maintain thousands of skus and be profitable - there's a big difference. And I can understand why. Companies usually don't want to keep a large inventory of non-moving product on hand. Bits probably don't sell that well in the grand scheme of things, and having every bit imagaineable is a huge waste of space.

zedeyejoe
21-02-2009, 15:39
13% does suck big time.

Try 25% in Denmark. We in the UK have had our VAT reduced to 15% for the duration of the crisis, normally 17.5% (but you don't pay it on books, food or childs clothing).

blongbling
22-02-2009, 09:21
The company I used to work for had 5 warehouses (just in this state) with thousands of different products. We could look up and find where every pallet was located - each warehouse and every spot was given an ID. You could find how many cases were on a pallet, how many items in a case, how much a case weighed, how long it had been there etc. I could also go in and look at all this at any other location worldwide. We used SAP and another system so there is no reason that a company can't maintain thousands of skus and be profitable. But apparantly GW can't maintain thousands of skus and be profitable - there's a big difference. And I can understand why. Companies usually don't want to keep a large inventory of non-moving product on hand. Bits probably don't sell that well in the grand scheme of things, and having every bit imagaineable is a huge waste of space.

and that is different from GW how? have you actually seen their infrastructure and the warehousing/stock mgt systems?

profitability isnt about knowing where your stock is, its about the sales it has against the costs associated to the product.

zedeyejoe
22-02-2009, 09:45
As regards profitability, efficiency generally is considered better than disorganisation. I have seen organisations where you cannot find something when you need it, it rarely results in greater profitability. BTW was in my role as a systems analyst, wandering the UK for a variety of client companies.

My only experience of GW systems was on a VIP day. Wandering round GW Nottingham with Allison, the production manager. Lots of people doing manual operations (instead of something like a car plant), so a lot is down to the staff.

Now this is something that I have only second hand knowledge of but apparently lots of stock was being stolen from the warehouse. Obviously a stock control system does not prevent that but it does let you know when it happens. GW legal asked me to check if stuff was being sold in my area (trick was to look for lots of shrink wrapped stuff, being sold cheap). Theft is a double whammy as not only does it 'cost' you what could could have made selling it, it also means that you have lost all the effort in making the stuff.

galad
22-02-2009, 15:00
and that is different from GW how? have you actually seen their infrastructure and the warehousing/stock mgt systems?

profitability isnt about knowing where your stock is, its about the sales it has against the costs associated to the product.

The whole point of my post was that it is possible for SOME companies to manage a large inventory and be profitable - HOWEVER it must not be for GW due to the way they run things. Learn to read - thanks!

Crazy Harborc
23-02-2009, 01:57
IMHO, GW would be doing better IF the number of itmes bought by customers were still increasing at the same pace as in previous years. Charging more while selling less items means lower incoming $$$$$.

Having a good handle on the location and numbers of items in stock DOES effect profit. Disorganization/poor inventory control leads to too many of item A and not enough of item Z to fill orders for them.

AngelofSorrow
23-02-2009, 02:17
GW is doing very well in my area (IL) as they have 14 stores and the bunker here just got doubled in size they have 50 something tables now.

I sometimes go into the one in Algonquin and on weekends the place is packed.

Crazy Harborc
23-02-2009, 03:44
Hello nothern Illinois. Not even close to that many(any more) indies in my area of Missouri. No longer a GW store. I really doubt many (if any) GW games players will say "oh yeah lets drive for 6/7 hours and go to Chi-town to play at a GW store or bunker".

Lornak Bloodgreed
01-03-2009, 21:07
Now, this is probably the most under handed thing I have witnessed in the 18, almost 19 years of my life.

2 weeks ago, I go to Buckland Hills Mall in Connecticut and ... oh my god, the store is gone... I almost began to quiver with rage...

No notice, nothing. The one OFFICIAL store left within 100 miles closed down out of the blue, and that prior christmas was the best selling point they had in 5 years. To this day I cannot believe that Games Workshop would cut off 50+ people including me, one of their more frequent customers, without any alternative. They had actually recently before that cut off the Holyoke Mall location which was my origional GW experience :cries:.

How could a company, with all of its rantings on "quality" yadda yadda, have the gall to just cut off, as coldly as possible, 50+ USUAL customers?

Why would I ever call them reputable again?

DOES GW have a heart? DO they care about their customers?

THERE'S NOT A SINGLE GW STORE WITHIN 100 MILES! WOW....:wtf:

Thats what many people are gonna get or have gotten from "good" ole GW... SO, what do you all think? Did GW just rip me off?:confused::mad:

OH, and btw, I did a bit of thinking and got a reasonable guesstimate of how much MONEY that I have BLOWN OUT MY **** on this hobby, and lets just leave it at a reasonable

$3250, and thats being conservative SO, I guess I didnt give them enough...

IJW
01-03-2009, 21:14
You missed this thread (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182677), then?

Lornak Bloodgreed
01-03-2009, 21:23
So where does the hobby go? What fun is doing this by myself at home in a small town where theres ONE person to do the hobby with in 30 miles? I think that GW lost what little soul it had, at least here in the US... and on the issue of WASHINGTON doing good, why do I care? I dont live near washington, and an 85-90 mile drive every weekend is stupid of them to think is fair for us...

t-tauri
01-03-2009, 21:32
You missed this thread (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182677), then?

Merged to that existing thread.

EmperorNorton
01-03-2009, 21:38
SO, what do you all think? Did GW just rip me off?:confused::mad:

Have they taken away any of the product you received in exchange for your money?
If not, then no, I don't think so.

simonr1978
01-03-2009, 21:43
Maybe I'm getting mixed messages here, but surely you and a few of the 50+ usual customers could arrange getting together to play a few games at a convenient location, there were apparently this sort of number of people who were willing to usually frequent the GW store so I'm assuming that you're not entirely out on your lonesome.


Why would I ever call them reputable again?


What reason do you have to consider them disreputable? They closed a store in economically troubled times when practically everyone is tightening their belts. Were you ever told that this could never happen? If not then I fail to see how you can decide that they're disreputable.


DOES GW have a heart? DO they care about their customers?

GW are a PLC and as such their fundamental responsibilities are about making money for their shareholders. Sorry, but that's the simple truth. If your local isn't making enough money then it will be closed. I have no doubt that there are individuals who care about their customers and if this coincides with caring for the customers then all's well and good, but it's a business not a charity and they have to make a profit.


SO, what do you all think? Did GW just rip me off?


In all honesty, no, not in the slightest.

I do think that giving absolutely no indication that the store was going to close was a little unfair if that was the case, but regardless of whether you spent thousands on armies or just bought the occasional blister now and then, unless the local manager gave you some kind of assurance (Which in any case I'm betting would probably be beyond his authority to give) that GW would always provide you with a venue to play at in perpuity, then I don't see how you were ripped off.

Is this inconvenient for you? Yes, clearly you feel that way at any rate. Were you "Ripped off"? No. If that's the most underhanded thing you've experienced in 18 years then you are exceedingly lucky.

GW gets a lot of flak on here, some of it may be deserved but in this case I don't think it is.

TheKingInYellow
02-03-2009, 01:03
To give you an idea of things in Canada, GW closed their mall store in a very expensive mall, and opened in a strip mall across the street. Better parking, more space (6 or 8 full size tables now?) and I'm sure they cut their rent in half.

Makes good sense business-wise.

Crazy Harborc
02-03-2009, 02:56
GW, in it's WD, in official stores and at official events as well as it's website(s) refers to itself as a hobby and or a community. We have been told that official stores are places to gete our goodies, a place to gather, to paint, to play the various GW games systems.......IMHO, that is why people expect GW to "BE" like the image of itself that GW projects to it cuatomers.

I am just as loyal to GW and its stores, it's products...as GW has been to us.

Bookwrak
02-03-2009, 03:44
Thats what many people are gonna get or have gotten from "good" ole GW... SO, what do you all think? Did GW just rip me off?:confused::mad:
Of course not, and it's more than a little silly that you're being self-centered enough to even ask that.


$3250, and thats being conservative SO, I guess I didnt give them enough...
You have no idea how much it costs to run store just on a week to week basis, do you?


How could a company, with all of its rantings on "quality" yadda yadda, have the gall to just cut off, as coldly as possible, 50+ USUAL customers?

So where does the hobby go? What fun is doing this by myself at home in a small town where theres ONE person to do the hobby with in 30 miles?
Two things, 1: you really should pay more attention to what you write before you post it, 2: Get a little maturity and stop being so selfish. Depending on which post of yours we choose to believe, it seems that the hobby was all but dead in your area anyways, and why should GW keep throwing money down a hole just to satisfy _you?_ Did the store really close without warning, or was it just not a message that made it to you? Maybe you missed the signs, maybe, after telling every customer that came in about the closing for a few weeks, they thought that everyone knew, and were tired of repeating the same dreary news over and over.

Finally, the situation is nowhere near as dire as you assume it is. You know there's a store locator function on the GW site, yes? And you do know that there are lots of independent stores that also carry GW games, and host play nights, yes? There's more than a dozen in itty, bitty CT by itself.

Lornak Bloodgreed
02-03-2009, 05:38
well, as i said, there were more people than me going there, and who are you to scruitinize my character? Im not selfish, im stating the fact, GW cut off more than 50 people from going to the store location to convene for the hobby, thats "more than a little silly" in my opinion SIR....

Also, its not my problem if games workshop cant pay for things, which is rather rediculous since their income MUST be enough to both profit from and up keep the ONLY STORE within 100miles of the state...

Since you attack my character, I say that you are a heartless person if you have no sympathy at all for the 50+ people who were cut off from the one place in CT or Mass. that has any sort of "hobby-related" activity going on. I have been to 15 independant retailers in CT alone and only 1 of them actually do anything other than sell dusty, bent, and possibly opened boxes/blisters.

Now, I went to this store every weekend and every day that is made available to me during the week, so ya, they shut down without any notice. Kind of a rip off. Just like having to travel an additional 10 miles to the nearest independent retailer just to get said dusty, bent, possibly opened boxes/blisters in a dank basement of a back alley shop... or alternatively pay EXTRA MONEY on already high prices to even continue to supply myself with materials through the ordering system.

I guess the only good left of this is now this dank, shack of a retailer will get more business, grand...

GeneralDisaster
02-03-2009, 06:37
Again, as has everyone else here, grow up and order online. The colsure of a store is not the end of your hobby life. Meet up somewhere else to play.

wilsonian
02-03-2009, 07:41
I don't see what the big fuss is about. Sure back in the 90's GW had the upper hand untill indie's came along claiming to sell below GW's store price.

If I was you mate I'd go on eBay. Sure people argue about prices and supporting your local store but truth be told when you've been in the hobby for more than 10 years you'll know just how pricey items have got.

darker4308
02-03-2009, 08:01
On the subject of pricing and stores making money. You know a store that is making money can still be closed for valid reasons. The reason being is that as companies try to expand and drawn in more shareholders they need to show increases in a profit by percentage. If there is a store only making 5% that is much loved it makes sence to shut it down if all the other stores are making 20% due to the fact that you can move the capital investment. It's not crazy it's just good business practice. They shut down a GAP store in my local mall for exactly this reason (back when it was popular).

simonr1978
02-03-2009, 09:44
well, as i said, there were more people than me going there, and who are you to scruitinize my character? Im not selfish, im stating the fact, GW cut off more than 50 people from going to the store location to convene for the hobby, thats "more than a little silly" in my opinion SIR....

Clearly not enough to warrant keeping the store open though otherwise they would have done so, yet you seem to expect GW to keep the store open regardless and by extension for every other GW customer to subsidise a location for your gaming needs, now that's more than a little silly, it's also downright unrealistic.


Also, its not my problem if games workshop cant pay for things, which is rather rediculous since their income MUST be enough to both profit from and up keep the ONLY STORE within 100miles of the state...

It's certainly GW's problem though since if they can't pay for things they will ultimately fail as a business. I don't see how you can assume that the store income must have been enough, I'd say the opposite, if it had have been making enough money then it wouldn't have closed.


Since you attack my character, I say that you are a heartless person if you have no sympathy at all for the 50+ people who were cut off from the one place in CT or Mass. that has any sort of "hobby-related" activity going on. I have been to 15 independant retailers in CT alone and only 1 of them actually do anything other than sell dusty, bent, and possibly opened boxes/blisters.

You have some sympathy from me, however I really think that your anger is very misplaced. As you keep throwing this number around, I'll ask again, surely between the "50+ usual customers" that you keep mentioning there is some way of getting together as a group somewhere for gaming evenings, do you really need a GW store for this to happen?


Now, I went to this store every weekend and every day that is made available to me during the week, so ya, they shut down without any notice. Kind of a rip off. Just like having to travel an additional 10 miles to the nearest independent retailer just to get said dusty, bent, possibly opened boxes/blisters in a dank basement of a back alley shop... or alternatively pay EXTRA MONEY on already high prices to even continue to supply myself with materials through the ordering system.

You keep saying that you've been ripped off, again I'll ask how exactly? Were you told that the store never could close? Was there some kind of implied or explicit obligation from GW to provide you with a convenient gaming venue for ever more in exchange for your purchases? No? Then you weren't ripped off.

As for paying extra... :eyebrows: There are many, many places online you can order from where it'll be less, even taking into account postage costs, than buying from a GW store.

You could order from online stores and make the effort to get together occasionally with a few of the 50+ usual customers you keep mentioning, or you can sit there "Quivering with rage" ranting about this injustice from the evil GW to the interweb, it's up to you.

yabbadabba
02-03-2009, 09:51
50+ customers won't even pay for the milk HM_Cassius. Try 1500 till count minimum.

zedeyejoe
02-03-2009, 12:04
I'll ask again, surely between the "50+ usual customers" that you keep mentioning there is some way of getting together as a group somewhere for gaming evenings, do you really need a GW store for this to happen?

I would say that this is common in my experience in the UK. A group of like-minded people getting together to game (or do other activities). Clubs I have attended have been in peoples homes, church halls and community centres. I have only played in a GW 3 times in 38 years of gaming.

Wintertooth
02-03-2009, 12:19
That seems to be a major difference between the hobby experience in Europe and the US. Clubs there appear to be spread thinly, and where they even exist often centred on some sort of retail store, whether an indy or a GW Battle Bunker. I assume it's a lack of venues rather than initiative. Maybe all the church halls are in the hands of rabid evangelicals who lack the sleepy tolerance of the good old C of E and view wargaming as devil worship.

Bookwrak
02-03-2009, 15:10
Since you attack my character, I say that you are a heartless person if you have no sympathy at all for the 50+ people who were cut off from the one place in CT or Mass. that has any sort of "hobby-related" activity going on. I have been to 15 independant retailers in CT alone and only 1 of them actually do anything other than sell dusty, bent, and possibly opened boxes/blisters.

or alternatively pay EXTRA MONEY on already high prices to even continue to supply myself with materials through the ordering system.

I'm not attacking your character, I'm making an evaluation of the way you're presenting yourself - self-centered, and ignorant. You apparently have never heard of the myriad online retailers that sell at a decent discount to GW's webstore, nor are you familiar with the most recent of inventions, the telephone, as you had to physically go 'to 15 independant retailers in CT alone and only 1 of them actually do anything other than sell dusty, bent, and possibly opened boxes/blisters,' instead of calling and asking, 'Do you sell GW products? Do you have gaming nights?"

Not that I buy that load of BS even for a second. Between MA and CT, the GW Store Locator lists _50_ retailers, and not a single one of them is within a 100 miles of you, or has game tables,a gaming league, or anything like that? Really? Really?

I'm not heartless, I'm just not going to put up with a sob story from someone with an overweening sense of entitlement and the lack of initiative to spend five minutes on the telephone finding an alternative gaming venue. I'm on the Eastern seaboard too, and while I know not everyone has the luxury of having a half dozen GW stores and twice that number of retailers within reasonable distance, I find it ludicrous that Connecticut of all places, only had a single hobby shop in all of the state, stretching all the way to Massachusetts, where people could shop and game.

x-esiv-4c
02-03-2009, 19:25
HM_Cassius,
What is the name of this dusty-independent retailer you mention in your posts?

Lost_Heretic
02-03-2009, 23:08
Hey, all us Central Connecticut players are a bit miffed. Our GW had great staff that respected customers. Now, the Connecticut River Valley is now nearly devoid of stores.

War and Pieces? Gone.
The Grid? Gone.
Dragon's Lair? Gone.
Sarge's Comics? Gone.
Games Workshop? Gone.

There's only one store, The Time Machine, which is a good place but...kind of dusty and grimey. But then, it's in an industrial age soap factory. :p



However, Connecticut's no longer my real concern. I live in Boston and it's tough there, too. The only shop actually in Boston is a dinky place with a single table, usually covered by boxes, and the most asinine staff you'll ever meet. Most of the retailers listed on GW's site are Newbury Comics shops and 80% of their stock is CDs and DVDs. The only worthwhile shop I've found is The Hobby Bunker all the way out in Malden. It's got gaming tables and a wargamer club, too.

Madcap422
02-03-2009, 23:20
Well, if any of you are still looking for a GW store in CT, I work at the Hobbytown USA in Fairfield. And we have a club that is pretty active.

Acolyte
02-03-2009, 23:27
$3250, and thats being conservative SO, I guess I didnt give them enough...

Ooh, $3250. That's, like, 1/6th of the annual salary of one staffer. 50+ players? Whoop-de-*******'-doo.

x-esiv-4c
03-03-2009, 11:55
The Warsmith is opening up this either this month or next in East hartford. It's owned an operated by the hartford GW manager. The addiction continues :D

Azyriel
27-03-2009, 08:13
Hey, all us Central Connecticut players are a bit miffed. Our GW had great staff that respected customers. Now, the Connecticut River Valley is now nearly devoid of stores.

War and Pieces? Gone.
The Grid? Gone.
Dragon's Lair? Gone.
Sarge's Comics? Gone.
Games Workshop? Gone.

There's only one store, The Time Machine, which is a good place but...kind of dusty and grimey. But then, it's in an industrial age soap factory. :p



However, Connecticut's no longer my real concern. I live in Boston and it's tough there, too. The only shop actually in Boston is a dinky place with a single table, usually covered by boxes, and the most asinine staff you'll ever meet. Most of the retailers listed on GW's site are Newbury Comics shops and 80% of their stock is CDs and DVDs. The only worthwhile shop I've found is The Hobby Bunker all the way out in Malden. It's got gaming tables and a wargamer club, too.Yea i agree Time Machine is okay its kind of cool because it has EVERYTHING but i really miss the local GW shop the staff was awesome! Unless another store opens up in CT/Mass area then i think i might have to call it quits on the hobby and focus on D&D.

doombanner
27-03-2009, 18:00
They were losing money with the bits order section, that's why GW stopped it.

Then shouldn't the solution be to instutute a minimum order?


An example is the gnoblar scraplauncher; a customer would buy the rhinox model, and then convert the huge sledge/chariot section.

Isn't that a problem with the model design then? Make something that looks like scrap, then act surprised when customers don't want it? Like all the Ork vehicles?


That's not the only reason. You have to store every single component for every model in serperate trays, and all the box sets. Also imagine how long it will take a despatch worker to pick out a list of 30 individual items compared to picking up a box.

Who cares how long it takes? They would overcharge you for the bits for just that reason; to account for the time taken to pull the bits. Other companies can supply individual parts, why not GW?


I do prefer the old bit order section myself :) but unfortunately i doubt it will ever come back.

That's too bad, converting models is a vital part of the hobby.

~ Doom Banner

Tzeentch2003
27-03-2009, 18:21
At the last stockholders meeting, A plan was discussed for changes in the USA. Closing all the Mills mall stores. Then opening new stores close to select schools (I'm guessing, High Schools).


Has anyone heard a timeline for this? I play sometimes at the Arundel Mills store, and like the manager there. I know that the plan is to eventually phase out all of the mall stores (GW just opened a new store in a shopping plaza in Olney) so I'm afraid the days of his store are numbered.

yabbadabba
27-03-2009, 18:55
@ Doombanner

Surprisingly enough GW do take into account charging customers too much. So they have come up with a strategy where they can provide a bits service at a cost they consider reasonable. It might not be what you want but it's what you've got. The vast majority of companies do not support a comprehensive bits service. For a long time it was one of things that made GW unusual in the wargames miniatures market. It does cost money to run. If this ran by normal GW thinking, as soon as they stopped providing a comprehensive bits service, questions would have arisen over whether the bits service was fit for purpose anymore.

On the flip side, the plastic sprues in the boxes now come with a huge amount more on them than they ever did - including scenic pieces. So while you might not be able to pay an over-inflated sum for some pieces to custom make a model, you will get plenty of left overs from the sprues to carry on converting.
Converting is still a vital part of the hobby. It just requires a slight shift in planning.

Vic
27-03-2009, 19:01
My shadow hasnt graced a GW company store in over 5 years. The closest one is 500 miles round trip. That store would be Franklin Mills Pennsyltucky. I do the bulk of my buying online from The Warstore, and occasionally at a friends store whenever I go back to my home state to visit family. I may from time to time stop at an independents that is 60 miles away round trip, but he doesnt offer a discount and has no gaming space, so I dont buy as much as I could if he did. I do my gaming in the house with my children, so having a place to play isnt a factor when I decide to make a purchase, the price I pay is.

doombanner
27-03-2009, 19:39
@ Doombanner

Surprisingly enough GW do take into account charging customers too much. So they have come up with a strategy where they can provide a bits service at a cost they consider reasonable. It might not be what you want but it's what you've got. The vast majority of companies do not support a comprehensive bits service. For a long time it was one of things that made GW unusual in the wargames miniatures market. It does cost money to run. If this ran by normal GW thinking, as soon as they stopped providing a comprehensive bits service, questions would have arisen over whether the bits service was fit for purpose anymore.

On the flip side, the plastic sprues in the boxes now come with a huge amount more on them than they ever did - including scenic pieces. So while you might not be able to pay an over-inflated sum for some pieces to custom make a model, you will get plenty of left overs from the sprues to carry on converting.
Converting is still a vital part of the hobby. It just requires a slight shift in planning.

Yeah, eBay and Battlewagon Bits. And surprise surprise, GW has a problem with Battlewagon Bits. Games Workshop leaves a hole in the marketplace, a competitor comes in with a superior service and GW flips its wig. Thus, the Warstore has to buy them out.

Obviously, not everyone is content with buying those bits packs...

~Doom Banner

yabbadabba
27-03-2009, 20:38
Yeah, eBay and Battlewagon Bits. And surprise surprise, GW has a problem with Battlewagon Bits. Games Workshop leaves a hole in the marketplace, a competitor comes in with a superior service and GW flips its wig. Thus, the Warstore has to buy them out.
Obviously, not everyone is content with buying those bits packs...
~Doom Banner

Of course not, but in a few years time, GW's bits service will be in the same category of conversation as Rogue Trader and Adeptus Titanicus.
GW have left a small hole in the market place - it must have been small otherwise why did GW pull out of it? However (and I don't know the BWB situation) some companies had chosen to have a bits service by violating their terms and conditions with GW. So is it wrong for GW to enforce those Tand C's?
I mourn the bits service along with many old timers - but I am also realistic enough to understand that you have to move on.

Templar Ben
27-03-2009, 21:17
I am sure if given the numbers many of us could find ways to keep bitz profitable but I think it was just to help change strategy. That was the single biggest step since starting plastic to say that they way of metal is dead and the GW will use plastic whenever possible.

I can't order SOB #3's left arm but in the future (possibly) there will be plenty of plastic spares available.

GW wants to be all plastic as that gives them the lowest variable costs. When you have large runs it is the variable costs that kill you and given GW's size they want to have large runs.

What doesn't make sense is GW not allowing one to buy an individual sprue (except for a very narrow list) since it is just 3 more seconds per sprue on that machine.

yabbadabba
27-03-2009, 21:25
What doesn't make sense is GW not allowing one to buy an individual sprue (except for a very narrow list) since it is just 3 more seconds per sprue on that machine.

In that part I agree. Maybe it's something that will become part of the current service at a later development stage? Who knows.

doombanner
27-03-2009, 21:26
Of course not, but in a few years time, GW's bits service will be in the same category of conversation as Rogue Trader and Adeptus Titanicus.

Fondly remembered and sorely missed? :D

~Doom Banner

yabbadabba
28-03-2009, 09:55
Fondly remembered and sorely missed? :D

~Doom Banner

And having no bearing on the hobby.

Dexter099
01-04-2009, 02:14
Well, the northeast has always been an economically depressed region compared to much of the US.

bluemeenie
01-04-2009, 05:52
And having no bearing on the hobby.

I was sorta with you up to this statement...I think bits has a huge impact on the hobby.

Thus why the give you so many extras on a spruce now a days, because the bitz box is just as much a necessity to a serious modeler/gamer as your spruce cutter, exacto and plastic cement.


Without bitz then why not just single line all the stats and equipment of each unit and leave it at that.


They don't. They allow tailoring of the squads in multiple ways, and as such make bitz hoarding/swapping/trading an integral part of the game.

evilsponge
01-04-2009, 20:55
Well, the northeast has always been an economically depressed region compared to much of the US.

the rustbelt is still recovering from the collapse of the steel industry